The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination withdrawn. There is consensus to rename the article. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 14:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Judean Free Government (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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A hoax, but not quite blatant enough for WP:SPEEDY. Not surprisingly, none of the bios of the people linked in this article mention this "Free Government". Clarityfiend (talk) 23:58, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Not even backed up by the only verifiable source given. The Banner talk 00:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC) Maybe just poorly sourced and incorrectly named. The Banner talk 10:06, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per aboveGaruda28 (talk) 02:30, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Question: The naming of this article might be questionable, but it appears that there was a short-lived de-facto governing entity of Judea under Ananus[1] as described by the article. What grounds are there for identifying part or all of the article as a hoax (or otherwise inaccurate) other than its name and limited sourcing? ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 05:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Edit conflict - I noticed this article originally redirected to First_Jewish–Roman_War#Gallus'_campaign_and_Judean_Free_Government - and the Judean Free Government content in both places was created by the same person {u|Greyshark09)). He was notified on his talk page about this discussion so I hope he will come here eventually. He is quite prolific with ancient history and wrote 182 articles. The sourcing for this is poor, and I flagged First_Jewish–Roman_War#Gallus'_campaign_and_Judean_Free_Government for being unreferenced. I did Google Judean Free Government and it appears what little coverage there is is lifted from this article, but I'm wondering why you think it's a hoax. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 06:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  For context, I just saw this at the help desk: Wikipedia:Help_desk#A_potential_factual_issue_on_multiple_pages_(possibly_subtle_hoax?),_and_unsure_where_to_put_this. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 06:16, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• That's where I saw it too. While I'm no expert, like the help desk inquirer, I don't see any sources for a "Judean Free Government" or a "People's Assembly". Maybe hoax is too strong a word, but something is definitely not right if the terminology is so screwy. Also, what function does this article serve? First Jewish–Roman War covers the same ground in as much detail and with much more context. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's some explanatory translation going on somewhere? For "People's Assembly" see Sanhedrin? I think a separate well-sourced article would be needed -- there looks enough to justify spinout from previous target, and a government should have a separate article even if permanently relatively short ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 07:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond the Sanhedrin (literally assembly) which was invovled, Josephus does describe an assembly of the people in the Temple (organized by Simeon ben Gamliel) , which preceded forming of the provisional government. Icewhiz (talk) 13:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that we have longstanding pages Great Assembly and Sanhedrin which probably need merging.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• They are distinct. The great assembly (or Knesset) is the namesake of the modern Knesset (as well as the basis for choosing 120 MKs).Icewhiz (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The book given as Ref 2 does support the statement where it is cited (p. 11) Bradley W. Root (17 October 2014). First Century Galilee: A Fresh Examination of the Sources. Mohr Siebeck. p. 11. ISBN 978-3-16-153489-8. and also refers to "the rebel government" (p. 181) and "the government in Judea that left the region [Galilee] in a state of anarchy" (p. 34). Maybe the article should be retitled "Rebel government in Judea AD **-**" or similar: Bhunacat10 (talk), 13:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The page title is an issue (but Judean rebel government / Judean provisional government would be supported by sources, as would a number of other permutations). There was a provisional or rebel government in Judea in 66-68. See for instance - [2], [3], Ilan, Tal, and Jonathan J. Price. "Seven Onomastic Problems in Josephus'" Bellum Judaicum"." The Jewish Quarterly Review (1993): 189-208., or this Routledge book (which uses provisional government as well as the occasional Jerusalem junta). The article is not a hoax - the sole glaring issue I see is the use of "free". Icewhiz (talk) 13:32, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 13:34, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 13:34, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge The information has encyclopediac value but does not need its own article. I think it could be merged with State of Judea into an article similar to Proposals for a Jewish state. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 14:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I fail to see what this has to do with State of Judea, a modern political proposal.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that this government fits into the period of the First Jewish–Roman War#Gallus' campaign and Judean Free Government, and is a sort of type: a short-lived revolutionary government that disappears when it loses the revolution.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'm not seeing support in the literature for the name of a "free" government or "people's" assembly. In fact, I initially confused this nomenclature with the People's Front of Judea. As suggested above, Judean rebel government / Judean provisional government might be alternative titles if this warrants a standalone article rather than a merge to First Jewish–Roman War. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 17:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep It's not a badly written article. It gives a pretty accurate description of the short-lived provisional government that existed during a Revolt often described as the most serious rebellion in the entire history of the Roman Empire (obviously referring to internal rebellions, not foreign wars, wars of conquest, and invasions of the Empire.) I suggest we go with a modern usage: Judean provisional government (66-68 AD). Note that it was a "real" government while it lasted, mustering and paying armies, issuing coinage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Note that we have an article, First Jewish Revolt coinage, about the coins minted by this government. (Similar to Early American currency#Continental currency, except, George Washington could call on the French Navy to outflank the British Empire at Yorktown, but the Judeans has to fight the Romans without the support of the King of France. And so they lost.) There is no consensus name for the rebel government of Judea in this period, invalidating comments above about failed searches for "Judean Free government". E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Note I was the one who originally thought something was up and posted to the help desk. To be clear, the questionable issues for me were specifically the name (and its use in other articles about the first Jewish-Roman War as well), as well as the article mentioning a "Judean People's Assembly" (which could maybe be a reference to the Sanhedrin, but does not appear to be referred to with this name). The Jewish revolt itself definitely seems legit, but the particular terminology made me suspicious of a subtle joke on the "People's Front of Judea/Judean Peoples' Front" from Monty Python's Life of Brian. Like it was referring to real things, just with anachronistic terminology. That being said, there were apparently some references in Josephus' Jewish War to Ananus (a leader of the Jewish rebellion) as being "unique in his love for liberty and an enthusiast for democracy", and some coins minted from the Jewish revolt being inscribed with mentions of freedom, so the terminology might not be that crazy, but then on the other hand, it may have just served to make a subtle Monty Python joke here less immediately noticeable. Again considering there's still little to no sources specifically claiming a "Judean Free Government" or "Judean People's Assembly" HelpPls? (talk) 18:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, WP:HEY, my mind went straight to Monty Python when I saw this one listed at AfD. It isn't. It is, an article about a real government (real revolt, real army, real coins, real Sanhedrin, real politicians - all verifiable using real WP:RS.) Page needs improvement, but all this discussion lacks to support notability is consensus on a page name. And there are sources from which an article can be created. E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:57, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• You have a point on "free" (though it might be possible to source in Hebrew, English, or another langauge). The "People's Assembly" seems to me to refer to a gathering of a crowd of people in the Temple by Simeon ben Gamliel prior to forming the government (a bit like Mattathias's call some 200 years prior) - the choice of words may be off, but this is in Josephus.Icewhiz (talk) 19:02, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Thanks all. That's my remaing concerns gone. Prefer [[Judean provisional government (66-68 AD)]] as there was another rebel government formed in 132CE - see Bar Kokhba revolt ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 21:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

strike "AD". Either use "CE" or no era label. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 22:20, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• We should probably go with [[Judean provisional government (66-70 AD)]] because 70 is the year the Temple and the city of Jerusalem were destroyed; and the last year coins were minted (coins are valuable in setting dates because they are so concrete.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:09, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm down with that: Judean provisional government (66-70 CE).E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Withdraw nomination and rename. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  FWIW Monty Python's Life of Brian#Plot is actually quite a rational presentation of material present in less rational texts - the skit itself is well grounded in history (with "People's Front of Judea" and "Judean People's Front" being merely name adaptations of the inter-fighting between the Jewish factions - following the Zealot Temple Siege the Zealots fought amongs themselves, different factions laid seige to different portions of Jerusalem, and destroyed food stores of each other - making the Roman task in Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) much easier (probably hopeless for the Jews regardless - but without the interfighting the city might have held out more than the few months it did)). Icewhiz (talk) 09:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - as already mentioned, the "hoax" claim for deleting the article doesn't stand and i'm glad the community decided to keep it and expand. Thanks user:Icewhiz for bringing more references, those would benefit the article. My choice for rename would be [[Judean provisional government (66-68 AD)]] .GreyShark (dibra) 21:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.