The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge and redirect. This is a complicated and obviously controversial question. Consensus has been established several times to delete this article under variant titles, and while consensus can change, the majority of editors responding to this AfD do not seem to feel that it has, in that this specific group does not seem to have enough reliable independent sourcing to verify notability for a separate article. Many of the uncomplicated arguments here for keep (i.e. not for merge or redirect) seem either to be arguing for the existence rather than notability of the group or are not offering verifiable sourcing to establish that the group is notable. Others do not address the complicating factor that the name/term has wider usage, a complication referenced repeatedly by those responders arguing to delete and underscored by the fact that those responders arguing for merge do not concord on the appropriate destination article.

While many of the keep arguments do not address the concerns raised by those arguing for delete, there is suggestion even among several of those arguing to delete that this subject may be usefully addressed somewhere on Wikipedia or, at least, that the confusion occasioned by the term should be addressed. Rather than recreate Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation), a page itself deleted following AfD, it should be equally useful to point this title to a subsection of an existing article. Reasonable objections have been raised to the redirection of the article to Neturei Karta and Satmar (Hasidic dynasty), even though I personally find Elan26's point persuasive. Anti-Zionism, and specifically the subsection on Jewish anti-Zionism, seems to be the least controversial home suggested for this information. It seems to best accord with the consensus in this AfD that the group does not demonstrate stand-alone notability but that the group and/or term may be notable in connection to a larger topic to merge a small amount (given weight concerns) of the material into that space. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jews Against Zionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Why is this group notable enough for wikipedia, if anything, they can be mentioned in the Satmar or Neturei Karta articles Avi (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge/Redirect to Neturei Karta per nom. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment There are two old AfDs: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews Against Zionism and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews against zionism (2nd nomination)
  • Comment Please also see two other related AfDs as well: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/True Torah Jews and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation) --MPerel 02:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep This pulls up quite a few g-news hits; seems to be notable based on third-party coverage. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Change to redirect See Talk:Jews Against Zionism — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Although Satmar and Neturei Karta both use the name, all evidence suggests that Neturei Karta's use is more prominent. If Jews Against Zionism is turned back into a redirect, it should redirect to Neturei Karta. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• comment First step in dealing with this article is for it to actually say something about the group. Unlesst here's a little more specificity there's not really anything worth keeping. DGG (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Agree with DGG, if there is nothing to say that is original or notable, there is no reason for the article other than the promotion of another fringe group. ShoesssS ^Talk 02:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —— Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. —— Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, unless I am mistaken, this group was paraded around in Iran by Ahmadinejad in that Holocaust denial conference, and before that threw blood on Meir Kahane. If this is that group they have lots of Google news hits. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 08:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are Jews against Zionism (notice lower case against) which have done both of them but this article is about a group called "Jews Against Zionism". No one is denying the existence of Jews who are against Zionism but we do need more sources about this group to see if they are notable. gren グレン 08:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete without prejudice to recreation if notable sources can be found. My searches were about the terms in general not this group. gren グレン 08:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to True Torah Jews? According this journal article, "they exemplify the complexity of the Jewish fundamentalist movement." —Preceding unsigned comment added by גרב (talk • contribs) 09:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Torah True Jews" may itself be a neologism and there is justification for redirecting it to Orthodox Judaism. Be that as it may, can you give the author and context for the fragment you posted? The article itself is not free-use. -- Avi (talk) 14:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into Anti-Zionism. -- Nudve (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep It is its own group and is not the meshuges who parade with the Hitler (YM"S) of Iran. --Shuliavrumi (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• KeepThis is not Neturei Karta but a separate group, founded by Satmar and endorsed by all leading Satmar rabbis. However it cannot be merged into the Satmar page since it includes many non-Satmar members. User:Nat Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natsmith (talk • contribs) 18:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• — Natsmith (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• • Comment, it is beginning to look as if the article is failing WP:V. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep – I have struck my delete opinion and moved over to Keep based on research that the group is gaining notoriety and does pass my personal assessment of Notability. The articles I found that lend themselves to creditability – reliability and 3rd party sourcing are shown here, [1]. However, I should point out, that the article itself does need a rewrite that establishes and points specifically to a claim of Notability such as a statement as provided by Khaleej Times: “…most notable example is the quarrel in the United Kingdom between members of Jews against Zionism and those of Deir Yassin Remembered.” Or the article is going to end up here, again and again and again. ShoesssS ^Talk 20:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Keep in mind that there are at least three groups called "Jews Against Zionism". The article is about the Satmar group that maintains the website. There is another Orthodox Jewish group, the Neturei Karta, who use the name. There is also a secular group in the UK by the same name. A Google search is virtually useless in this instance. If an article mentions meeting with Palestinian leaders or Ahmadinejad, it's about Neturei Karta. If it's about something in the UK, it's about the secular group. Those probably account for 99% of the Google hits. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - nothing proven besides having a website, fails NN. --Shuki (talk) 22:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete (this is actually the 5th AfD for this, it has been deleted 4 times in different formats), and then I recommend recreating the Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation) page that was deleted in this AfD to clear up the continuous confusion over the three different groups Malik mentioned that get lumped under this title. The group the current article is about has no third party sources confirming it is actually associated with Satmar and the website registration does not confirm who actually runs the site and therefore fails WP:V. The more notable of the three groups labeled JAZ is the nonreligious European group. The news articles that mention Jews against Zionism are not referring to the group in this article but rather either the anti-Zionist group [Neturai Karta] (they're not called JAZ but as Jews who happen to be against Zionism they come up in "Jews against Zionism" searches) or the secular group. At least the old disambig page made clear the different groups that get associated with this name, none of which are individually notable enough for their own article. --MPerel 02:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This is a mess, and it is difficult to see what is the best way to proceed. It certainly shows the unwisdom of deleting the original disambiguation page. This group is probably notable enough to warrant an article, but there is a clear difficulty in distinguishing between it and Neturei Karta. But it would be better named True Torah Jews or True Torah Jews Against Zionism, as they call themselves. As MPerel and Malik Shabazz note above, many of the Google hits for "Jews Against Zionism" actually relate to the organisation of left-wing anti-Zionist Jews in Britain. I believe that this group, too, should have an article on Wikipedia. It is active and well known, and at least as notable as, for example, Brighton and Hove Palestine Solidarity Campaign or Engage. It is mentioned in other Wikipedia articles, and occasionally mistakenly linked to this article. However, as I am a leading member of that group, it would clearly be a conflict of interest for me to write such an article, or to make any more than technical or obviously factual edits to it. Additionally, such an article would inevitably attract the unwelcome attentions of the Runtshit vandal, creating more unneeded problems. At the very least, we should recreate a disambiguation page, and ensure that links refer to the correct group. RolandR (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not notable. Culturalrevival (talk) 18:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• keap - this article evidently bothers fgor the pro zionist users that it exists we cannot let this vicios censorship rule ourt project. It is not fringe if u arnt a zionist. i am a jew and i atest that this org is main stream amongst hasidic frum religies jews thanks--YY (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The issue isn't whether the article (or the website) bothers pro-Zionist editors, it is whether the organization is notable. If you feel that it is, please provide WP:reliable sources that indicate so. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note to closing admin Please note that YY is not responding based on wikipedia policy and/or guideline, again. -- Avi (talk) 23:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• CSD G4 -- Y not? 04:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into Satmar (Hasidic dynasty) and, specifically, into the scction of that article "Satmar opposition to Zionism" Which alreadyhas a section explaining the difference between this group and Neturei Karta.Elan26 (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)Elan26[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.