The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There has been much assertion in the discussion that Jayen Varma is notable, however, we rely on verifiable sources to prove such notability, and no sources have been provided. The recordholdersrepublic website is a doubtful source as it accepts submissions from anyone. Even if the site were reliable, the listing on that site alone would not be enough to meet the requirements of WP:BIO SilkTork *^YES! 11:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen Varma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Non-notable person. The only aspect in the page claiming notability is a Record Holders Republic record. Assuming that the record itself is not notable as I can't find references for it. Unable to find any other sources that assert notability of the individual either. Raziman T V (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : Oh, didn't know that the article has been deleted once. Concerns then seem to be same as mine now. Can this be speedied as G4? -- Raziman T V (talk) 16:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete No evidence to support notability. JamesBWatson (talk) 17:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Without access to the deleted article I can't say whether this is significantly different, but I can say that it seems to still have the characteristics which led to its deletion, judging by teh comments in the earlier AfD discussion. It was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jayen Varma, re-created 2 days later, deleted again under G4 (Recreation of a page which was deleted per a deletion discussion), and then re-created again 3 weeks later. JamesBWatson (talk) 17:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Need not be deleted The eveidence for notability is his official record with Record Holders Republic.

Link: http://www.recordholdersrepublic.co.uk/recordholdersdetails.asp?id=484 . In the article it is said that “..according to …… he is the fastest…” So the article can be retained. --Musicindia1 (talk) 07:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Struck duplicate !vote, as the editor has !voted keep below. -SpacemanSpiff 16:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As part of my nomination I am also questioning the notability of Record holders Republic itself. I had a glance at their form to be filled in to "get" a record and it doesn't look like a big deal. -- Raziman T V (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete have found no substantial coverage in reliable third-party sources. The claim to a Guiness record in The Hindu should be supported by an official Guiness source, because the Hindu sometimes does vanity reporting. Hekerui (talk) 10:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I made a study

Now I made a study about bass guitarists. Bass Players are not much noticed by masses, especially in India. That could be the reason why notability is less in this case also. Though Jayen Varma is known for his speed, his unique slap bass playing is more notable in the international big bass guitar community (especially among great bass players in the west and in Japan). The technique developed by him is emerging as a new genre funk now a days which is called “Indian Slap Bass”. This is being subjected to study. I also saw his profile where bassist like Bootsy Collins, Jeff Berlin, Marcus miller, Michael Henderson(of Stevie Wonder and Miles Davis), James LoMenzo (of Megadeth), David Pastorius etc have commented on his bass playing skills. In the meanwhile, I am surprised to see that there are hardly few Indian guitarists in WP, though there are many great players. Please consider this article to be retained. Thanks --Musicindia1 (talk) 11:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete If they've commented on his skills, where are the references? Come to that, where are any real references? As to Record holders Republic, I might be more impressed if they had used a proof reader on their site, and find their advisory panel somewhat unusual. It's not often a cardiologist and a sword swallower are found together. I'd never heard of this 'authority' on records before, and probably won't hear much more. Apart from which, 36 slaps per second? So what? That's gimmickry not music. Going back to references, we have this record site and a record, about the value of both of which I have reservations, a totally irrelevant book (in terms of the notability of this subject), and the subject's own website. External links are to the same personal website, MySpace, and a submit-your-own site. Peridon (talk) 12:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please approve

It’s hard to get the comments of each and everyone who appreciated him. Its available in http://www.myspace.com/jayenvarma profile, where all these bassists are in his friends list. I managed to get the comment of the legendary bassist Bootsy Collins. Pl see it here in this page http://comment.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewComments&friendID=299471028&page=42&state=5031!50!45!837830!834595

Also, if ‘fastest bassist’ is searched in FIND A RECORD in Guinness World Records official site http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com his name is displayed from his Guinness member profile. But I say that his innovative slap bass style is more important than speed. Please approve the article. Thanks --Musicindia1 (talk) 14:15, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Sorry, but MySpace doesn't count as a reliable independent reference - because, like Wikipedia, it is editable. Guinness Book? Sorry, no. It is not listed by Guinness as a record. There is a 'community.guinnessworldrecords.com/' reference, but it consists of a picture and

"Uploaded By: jayenvarma

10 months ago

Level: Bronze

Points: 515

Description:

Jayen Varma from India holds the World Record in Bass Guitar as Fastest".

(This was copied and pasted from this page, which says © Copyright Guinness World Records 2009 at the foot. Pasted here as a fair use quotation.) Self-published and not Guinness verified. The Guinness 'Find a Record' takes you to a Google search, where this 'community' article was at the top. I can't see this as being any different than just Google searching. If you want your article to survive, you need reliable independent references, not blogs, forums, or indeed any self-published stuff. Peridon (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where those boxes have come from - they weren't there and I certainly haven't added them. I also don't know what the 515 points mean. Peridon (talk) 21:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm barmy, the boxes have gone again. Don't care who took them, thanks... Peridon (talk) 00:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The boxes are from spaces before the text. So the Guiness record is made up. All about vanity. I sustain my Delete vote. Hekerui (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Really discouraging

I am only the creator of the page ജയന്‍ വര്‍മ in Malayalam language. I wanted to do some more translations about some great Western and Indian musicians to Malayalam language. But my initial experience was bitter when a user immediately tagged my article along with the original English article for deletion. I do not question the sincere intention of the user who proposed it for deletion. The fact is that I only translated a clean English article Jayen Varma to Malayalam. The same article is also there in Italian language. It seems that the English article was restored after deletion and a long similar discussion. In this context, I was forced to enquire more details of it. The record of Jayen varma is by ‘Registry of official World Records(Record Holders Republic)RHR(USA&UK). This is an official organization for human record holders and record attempters, by record holders (from Guinness, Alternate book of Records etc. Also in my search in WP, I could see many other articles quoting references of Record Holders Republic with the records of certain individuals. The description in the article which was restored on an earlier occasion after similar discussion is very neutral and true with the available reference. “…..According to the Registry of Official World Records (Record Holders Republic) USA and UK, he is the fastest percussive bassist, slap bass playing 36 percussive notes per second…”. Jayen Varma is of course notable in the music world for his innovative bass playing technique. The big land of India has 100s and 1000s of amazing guitar players. But around 10 are only listed in WP and the only bass guitarist's name Jayen Varma is also to be deleted now. Is this discrimination!! I hope you will look in to it again take any decision. I wanted to translate more, but just one is more than enough for me (since my time is now lost to establish even the original article). All the best to you all --Musicindia1 (talk) 03:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but the Record Holders Republic is NOT official. It's a privately run site. Anyone could start up a similar thing. Guinness isn't official in the legal sense, but is so well established that they can be regarded as such - but not the 'community' section where the records are not Guinness verified. Guinness verification is normally rather strict. If you know of other articles that you have doubts about, please feel free to tag them. But their existence has no bearing on this one. We do not want to put you off contributing to Wikipedia - we do want to make sure that the information in articles is accurate, and also notable enough for an encyclopaedia. And that requires evidence in the form of references, but not self-published ones. I could easily claim a record for, say, balancing wine bottles. I could create a website, and submit my 'record' with several friends witnessing it (after helping to empty the bottles). Guinness wouldn't accept it in their main section. The community bit probably would, and who knows about the Republic. I hope you can see where we are coming from. We can see your disappointment, but we have rules and guidelines. Peridon (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot You are having so much guessing. LIKE:- “..Guinness verification is normally rather strict..” “..I could easily claim a record for, say, balancing wine bottles….” ”…I could create a website, and submit my 'record' with several friends witnessing it…” ”…Guinness wouldn't accept it in their main section. who knows about the Republic…”. I respect you all since you are all more experienced in Wikipedia. I know that Wikipedia has rules and guidelines. You asked me to tag the other articles. But, I do not want to do it, since I don’t think ..’how to delete an article’- but I think, 'how not to delete an article by modifying it with available evidences.'. I believe that this was the strategy the users/administrators adapted in making the article to the present neutral position after a similar discussion in 2008. The man in the article is very much notable in the international world. The user who translated it in to Italian language may be knowing more, coz he seems to deal with musicians (Bass Players) articles. I do not want to go deep in to it anymore. And let the administrators decide the future of the article in question. Thanks a lot my friends.--Musicindia1 (talk) 02:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to make us feel guilty doesn't work. A lot of us would much rather salvage an article than delete it. Remember it is up to YOU to produce the evidence - evidence that fits our criteria. We have looked for it ourselves, and not found it. If you have it, put it on the table for us to see. If you can't, or won't, there's nothing we can do for you. Peridon (talk) 13:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not offending you my friend. Before translating the article to the language Malayalam, I also had checked the reference. And I was convinced about the neutrality of it as well. He is one of the greatest bass players of Indian origin and notable in the International world of music. In the following articles Record Holders Republic has been cited as a main source as well as additional reference. Doug Pruden Yard (beer) David Straitjacket Mohammad Faisal Lucky’s Lake Swim Paddy Doyle Liquid Blue. This is the reference in the article in question also. The article has been existing here for more than a year. So please feel free to edit it if you can so that the article won’t die.Thanks a lot.--Musicindia1 (talk) 14:21, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete no coverage in RS to show notability. I'm tempted to delete this as G4, as the only content not present in the old article is that inspiration section and the associated ref, not germane to the article. -SpacemanSpiff 09:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep the article. Bowing to the above suggestions, I made few minor changes. What is written down now is very much neutral and factual based on the reference quoted. The same reference book is accepted in Wikipedia in many other articles(which are shown above). I am still strong in this matter since I know that the entire Bass World knows that this Indian bassist is the fastest in the World and has got an innovative style. Thanks to all of you--Musicindia1 (talk) 13:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiff 00:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• ThanksHere is an interview with Varma appeared in Indian Music Lovers Headline today. http://www.indianmusiclovers.com/2010/01/19/interview-jayen-varma-the-fastest-bassist/ . Its just for reference. Thanks. --Musicindia1 (talk) 05:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Thanks. It is interesting, but... That is the only interview on the site, which looks fairly new (22nd December 2009 so far as I can tell). The site looks like a good idea, and I wish them well and would urge anyone with info to spread - or required - to look at it. However, "This site is a collective and the role of the audience and the writers is as important as the editors. The editors will beg, plead, threaten, maul to squeeze articles out of a list of featured writers on any theme that the writer would like to explore in.", and so it may well not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards. Sorry, I hoped you'd got one there. Peridon (talk) 12:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I did not place this link as an official reference. Indian Music Lovers http://www.indianmusiclovers.com/2010/01/19/interview-jayen-varma-the-fastest-bassist . It came up when I did a search today. Thats all. You are persuading me to do more search my friend. I will do it since I am convinced about the subject. I got another one from American Blues News, which is also an interview. Please have a look at this link. http://www.ameriblues.com/2009/10/guest-writer-jayen-varma-guest-blogger.html . Thank you. --Musicindia1 (talk) 13:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• In my search, I could get links of two uploaded items:DNA news http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=494404648&albumID=1003385&imageID=11814590 New Indian Express article http://shevlinsebastian.blogspot.com/2008/05/king-of-bass.html I think these news/articles are not alive now. I am not producing these as official evidences. Still, these show the notability of the bassist. Thanks.--Musicindia1 (talk) 15:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I got the news article of IE uploaded today by a renowned lead guitarist. This was appeared in Indian Express daily in India in 2008 May 19. http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=333630949&albumID=0&imageID=16832183 . Since it is an uploaded materiel, I don’t know if you will reckon it. These are not live now in the internet. And so many such news articles were there in different news papers in 2008 and it was also featured in Indian TVs(But I have no proof for that). I believe these news items were alive in the internet during the detailed discussion in this matter following the 1st nomination of the article for deletion. And that might have been one of the reasons why the article was kept safe after the discussion. The Hindu daily dated 5th Feb 2009 is but here in the news archive http://www.thehindu.com/mp/2009/02/05/stories/2009020551050400.htm .The Musician is a very notable person in the Indian and International Bass Guitar World and he is accepted by the bass guitar world as Fastest with his innovative style, especially by the Greatest Bass players in the world.Thanks again --Musicindia1 (talk) 08:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.