The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Mackensen (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jangladesh[edit]

Jangladesh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Jangladesh is not a recognised geographical or political term. It seems to have been invented for some political or other agenda. Please see the discussions on the Talk pages of the articles on "Jangladesh" and "Jat people" John Hill 07:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments have been moved to the talk page. utcursch | talk 11:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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• Do not delete Jangal Desh was the geographical identity of the north western region of Rajasthan prior to it was annexed by Bika Rathore. In the article Jangladesh it has been mentioned as an ancient region and not in the present context. As far as Mr John Hill is concerned he is not having any knowledge about this region and is biased. It has been discussed in detail on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jat_people. It may not be delated for the following reasons:
  • SECTION IX of Bhisma Parva in Mahabharata mentions about the regions of India during Mahabharata period (See http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06009.htm)

  "After this, listen to the names of the provinces as I mention them. They are the Kuru-Panchalas, the [[Salwa[[s, the Madreyas, the Jangalas, the Surasena, the Kalingas, the Bodhas, the Malas, the Matsyas, the Sauvalyas, the Kuntalas, the Kasi-kosalas, the Chedis, the Karushas, the Bhojas, the Sindhus,..." These are only few out of detailed list. Most of these ancient regions are mentioning in the Wikipedia. So is Jangala or Jangala Desh.

  • It is the geographical region known so in the history since Mahabharata times and that is why it is mentioned in Mahabharata. Geographical features mentioned in Mahabharata still exist in present times also. The name Jangala Desh continued till the beginning of the rule of Bika Rathore in end of fifteenth century.
  • It has been suggested before, and it will bear repetition, that it is always a good idea to get a knowledge of the Indian languages,and cultural heritage, and Indian history from an Indian perspective, before rushing in to delete material on a page that is related to Ancient Indian History.
  • It is mentioned on number of sites such as http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/2006/08/sultanate-of-nagaur.htmlJangaldesh - The English word jungle is derived from the Hindi jangal, both of which indicate a thick forest. However the original Sanskrit word jangala had a very different meaning—it was actually used to describe land where water was scarce, where khejri trees and ber hedges were abundant, and where roamed deer, black buck, and wild ass. The ancient Ayurveda states, “The land that has less water, trees, and hills is healthy jangala country.” (see -Shabad Kalpadrum) Over the centuries the word jangal was used for any wild or desolate piece of land and eventually became synonymous with forests. From the descriptions above, the country around Nagaur, north to Bikaner, and up to the border of Punjab, was called Jangaldesh in ancient times. The remains of some of the earliest settlements along the banks of the long dried-up Saraswati River can be seen to this day—in a later age it came under the Naga rulers after whom the town of Nagaur (Naga-pura) is named.
  • The Indian govt sites such as http://tdil.mit.gov.in/coilnet/ignca/rj019.htm, http://tdil.mit.gov.in/CoilNet/IGNCA/rj185.htm etc give details of these regions in which Rajasthan state of India was divided in ancient times.
  • Prof. Dilbagh Singh, a known historian from Jawahar Lal Nehru University, Delhi, writes in [“Migration and Movement: The Role of Jats in Rural Settlements in Rajasthan during Medieval Period”, The Jats, Vol. 2, Ed Dr Vir Singh, Originals, Delhi, 2006, ISBN 81-88629-52-9, pp. 215-217 ] as under:

  “Even Puratanaprabhandasamgraha and Nainsi’s Khyat attest to the formation of nodal kingdom at the expense of medas and meenas. Their movement was from Ahichhatrapura to Sakambari or Jangaldesh, which one could assume from the name and topography of Jangaldesh led to the colonization of generally unchartered area. [BD Chattopadhyaya, ‘The Emergence of Rajputs As Historical Process in Early Medieval Rajasthan’, K. Schomer (ed) The Idea of Rajasthan, Vol. II, Delhi, pp. 163-166]"

  • A well known political personality and author, records that Jats had established powerful governments in north India. Prior to 1488 Jats had seven Janapadas of Godara, Saran, Sihag, Beniwal, Puniya, Sahu, Johiya in desert region of Bikaner, [Dr Karni Singh (1947): The Relations of House of Bikaner with Central Power, Munsi Ram Manohar Lal Pub. Pvt, 54 Rani Jhansi Road, New Delhi.], [Dr Brahmaram Chaudhary, The Jats, Vol. 2, Ed Dr Vir Singh, Originals, Delhi, 2006, ISBN 81-88629-52-9, p. 250].
  • Jibraeil writes about Jangala Desh in [“Position of Jats in Churu Region” in “The Jats, Vol. 2”, Ed Dr Vir Singh, Originals, Delhi, 2006, ISBN 81-88629-52-9, pp. 223 ] as under:

  “When Rathores led an expedition into the region of dry land also known as Jangal Pradesh, which was occupied by the Jats and various tribes, the Bhatis and Jats of the region wanted to secure their position, they measured sword with him (Bika) and fought bravely against them, but finally defeated and accepted Rathor suzerainty. [G N Sharma, Rajasthan Studies, Agra, 1970, p. 197]”

  • A reputed historian K R Qanungo [History of the Jats, Ed Dr Vir Singh, 2003, p.] who mentions incidence from Mahabharata that there is a town named Sakala and river named Apaga where section of the Bahikas, known as the Jartikas, dwell. Their character is very repressible. He mentions about a Bahika who had to sojourn for a time in Kuru-jungal country (meaning -Jangala Desh).
  • These are only few instances from fistorical records. If this article is deleted the entire ancient history of this region of Rajasthan will be deleted from Wikipedia.
  • I strongly favour not to delete Jangladash. --burdak 16:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Groggy Dice T | C 22:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge with History of Bikaner. According to the website of the Rajasthan Tourism, "Jangladesh" was the name of area where Bikaner is situated today. Half of the article ("Rule of Bika and after" onwards) is about the history of Bikaner anyway. So, merging is an acceptable solution. utcursch | talk 07:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Burdak. 65.207.127.12 22:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• The Jangladesh page need not be deleted. If someone has doubts, the same could better be written on page. - dndeswal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.176.34.13 (talk) 05:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Unsourced, OR-fest. Creation of a concept of a coherent realm around two common words. Equivalent to coming across a history of somewhere called "Woodland" constructed out of references to a particular set of forests in all sorts of different sources. Some of the references are indeed to the area of desert wilderness (which is exactly what jangladesh means) common to Bikaner and Shekhawati, so make of that what you will. The two 'Indian government' sources in devanagiri script provided above are nothing of the kind, but websites from an arts institute written by a scholar of folk dances and heritage. Certainly any kind of linkage between the Mahabharata and Bika's period, which the article and its creator above tries to draw, is entirely fictional. Hornplease 06:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  There is an absolute wealth of references provided in English and Hindi, and from ancient texts such as the Mahabharat.

  The Mahabaharat is composed much much earlier ( centuries) than Bika' s period and must take precedence if we are looking at Ancient History. In Bika's period, there is also reference to a place, 'Jangloo' in Tod's book ( 1983 edition Munshiram Manohar Lal, Delhi) ( Now that is how the term is wriiten in Tod's book in the antiquated English of his time).

  In Crookes edition 1920,OUP,London page 1124 it is written as 'Janglu' a place 20 miles south of Bikaner.

  Place names are often from a people, and that also points us in the direction, that the place Janglu could have been named after the people, known as Jangasl, Jangloos, Jauaglus.

  Even the name Bikaner, was named after Bika and Ner( a Ner/Nehr Jat), who at that time shared power.

  The name Jangaldesh has been constantly appearing since ancient times.

  Taking all wealth of information and the numerous references available, why would you or anyone else wish to delete the article?.

  Do you , or for that matter anyone else, think that by deleting the article , it will make the name Jangaldesh go away?

  An Encyclopedia in meant to contain all, repeat all, knowledge, and cannot and should not be held hostage, to some people who have a personal agenda .

  Do not delete

  Ravi Chaudhary 14:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  Nobody expexts the name to go away, we just hope that in due course some more evidence will be provided than these occasional mentions of a name which, as I said, in the end can mean just "wilderness." As you say "the name Jangaldesh has constantly been appearing since ancient times". Yes, but to assume all those appearances were of the same coherent state, or that there is any other connection between them, is original research. Somebody else has to fill in the gaps, not us. Hornplease 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  Hornplease, Thank you for acknowledging that these references appear from ancient times( thus they are not fictitious, and that gaps need filling in. Now If the article is deleted,as you are suggesting, how would the gaps be filled? Do not delete. Ravi Chaudhary 21:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. OR synthesis of tenuous references. (And merge verifiable material with History of Bikaner, where substantial overlap exists already.) rudra 04:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, nom is incorrect.[1][2] The article needs to be trimmed down, not deleted. With 30+ incoming links, deleting this is quite disruptive. John Vandenberg 06:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  Just a minor correction -- almost all of these results are actually about Bangladesh. Because of poor quality of print, "B" is incorrectly scanned as "J" for some older books (example). Of course, the nominator is wrong in saying that the term was invented for some political or other agenda. The term "Jangla Desh" or 'Jangladesh" is an older name for the Bikaner region. The article needs to be pruned or merged with History of Bikaner, since most of it talks about after the region came to be known as Bikaner (the sections about Geography, Rule of Bika and after). utcursch | talk 07:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per John Vandenberg.Shyamsunder 23:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• KEEP'Bold text'

Dear utcursch

The area known as Jangaldesh covered the area west of the river Sindhu (now Indus), modern Pakistan across Modern Rajasthan, into modern Haryana and into Southern Punjab.

Geographically, the area covers North Rajastan, and extends into three major states- Sindh, Rajasthan, Punjab and Haryana.

The town of Bikaner is in the district of Bikaner. Around that are a number of other districts, as the maps in the link below indicates.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/rajasthan/districts/

That gives a picture of where Jangaldesh was at least in the modern State of Rajasthan.

The districts are Jaisalmer to the West, Jodhpur to the south, Ganganagar to the north, and State of Punjab, District Hanumangarh, North West, Jhunjunu to the East, and then the state of Haryana, also to the east. Jangaldesh stretched into near the modern town of Kurukshetra.

In the west beyond the Indian border, parts of what is now Pakistan part of Sindh were also part of Jangaldesh.

Ref: Dilip Singh Ahlawat, ‘ Jat Viron Ka Ithihaas” Mathan Press, Rohtak, India.

The article cannot be reduced to being a part of Bikaner district or even the formerly princely state of Bikaner.

Te other point readers may wish to consider is, that at that point of time, prior to the creation of Bikaner, in the 15th century CE, the area was known a Jangaldesh since ancient times.

Take the analogy of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire covered vast territories, Europe, Middle East, Egypt. That has now disappeared,

Yet no one would suggest that the Roman Empire be reduced to be part of an article about Rome.

There is plenty of evidence that was not the equivalent name in Hindi of a desert, a barren place.

It is not also the equivalent or synonym for Jungle, which means forest and Jungle has entered the English language.

The article needs to improved upon and expanded, not deleted or merged.?

Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary 19:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.