The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.

Although there is a large numerical majority of opinions to delete the article (according to the automated count, which is probably off), this does not amount to a consensus for deletion for the following reasons.

The article has been rewritten intensely during this AfD, notably by Hans Adler on March 9 and 10. These changes have substantially stuck so far. They have also caused some, including the nominator, to change their opinion from "delete" to solutions that do not require deletion (see the section "Article rewritten", below). Notably, no new "delete" opinion has been registered after the end of the rewrite. Also, most of the "delete" opinions are not because of perceived problems with the topic as such (e.g., non-notability), but rather because of perceived flaws in the article content (such as fringe, coatrack, synthesis, etc.). Much or all of the content that caused these objections is now gone.

All of this leads me to believe that most of the "delete" opinions are not very useful for determing whether there is current community consensus to delete the article in its present form. The comments registered after the rewrite, moreover, strongly indicate that there is no current consensus for deletion. Accordingly, this discussion is closed as yielding no consensus.

The renaming that is also proposed in conjunction with the rewrite has also received widespread agreement from those that have commented on it, but there's no pressing need to determine here (which would be difficult) whether it has a positive consensus. The rename can occur (and, if need be, discussed) through the normal editorial process.  Sandstein  22:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli art student scam[edit]

Israeli art student scam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article seems to be a collection of rumours building up to a claim that bogus art students were somehow connected with 9/11, with all the linkings being WP:Original research and innuendo. It has also been aggravated by an editor on the other side of the IP-battleground adding anti-Palestinian allegations. Peter cohen (talk) 13:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I note that the 9/11 stuff has now gone. I still think there is coatracking going on. Most of the article is about the spying allegations and not the scam. Although the text does admit in places that a lot of this stuff is doubtful, you get sentences such as "Rather than selling art, these Israelis were working in kiosks in shopping centres across America selling toys. The FBI was investigating the kiosks as a front operation for espionage activities." in the text. If it doesn't involve selling art, why is it even mentioned in the article?
The Forward article contains material from Chip Berlet dissecting the rumours and makes it clear that the Canadian business could no way be regarded as anything to do with spying. However, evenjust covering it in the spy allegation gives space to WP:FRINGE theory and per WP:DUE this whole lot is unbalancing the article.And most of the material all seems to go back to the one report by a DEA official which has received a certain amount of rubbishing. Of course, allies do spy on each other, but the amount of space in an article supposedly covering a fraud ring given to what are the theories of one disgruntled individual who does not work for an intelligence agency but rather for a drugs one is WP:COATRACKing.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the deletion discussion of a different article on the same topic so that the comments relevant to the topic (and not the old article) can be reviewed:

See previous deletion discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_art_students AMuseo (talk) 15:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: The article that Amuseo is referring to is an unrelated, inferior article that happens to share the same broad topic area. Please do not use it to judge the current article in question. Factsontheground (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that Factsontheground believes AMuseo's statement is misleading and unrelated. That is of course subjective. Its reasoning for deletion of this current article can of course also be questioned. User talk:Factsontheground#Removing the comments of others Cptnono (talk) 11:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is yet another discussion now at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Refactoring of another user's comments on a project page. Factsontheground, I will be much less polite if you delete my comments in the future. Cool and on the same page?Cptnono (talk) 12:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not obvious to me how many people who have commented in this subthread have actually seen the previous article. I have asked User:Mailer Diablo, the admin who closed the previous afd as delete about how similar the two articles are. His reply was "The topic is the same, but the material and sources in both versions of the article are substantially different." For this reason some of the comments at the previous afd (e.g. about whether the topic is encyclopaedic) will be relevant, while others (e.g. about how the previous article was written) aren't.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It matters to this AfD if the article is related but striking an others comments is inappropriate so don't do it.Cptnono (talk) 12:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would have had absolutely no problem if Amuseo had said "here's the deletion discussion of a different article on the same topic" so that the comments relevant to the topic (and not the old article) could be reviewed. Unfortunately he didn't. Factsontheground (talk) 12:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 1[edit]

art student break 2[edit]

I have cmoved the title to Alleged Art Scam by unidentified, self-described Israeli art students for the sake of accuracy, since this is all that the sources support.AMuseo (talk) 19:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your article move is a clear disruption, please don't do that again. Read the Salon article (above link) - many of these people were Israelis, were not art students, and were subsequently deported. GregorB (talk) 19:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article treats a debunked conspiracy theory as though it is plausible and reliably sourced. And it is a deliberate defamation of an ethnic group. Shall we also create articles on Gypsy horse thieves, Blacks who pretend to be collecting for charity scams, Palestinian West-Bank-based auto-theft rings and Martians who scam innocent Americans into believing in Martians? All of these could be supported by more and far more reliable evidence than the present article. All would reek of vile ethnic stereotyping and race-hatred. As this article does.AMuseo (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Claim of "deliberate defamation" is itself defamatory unless it's backed up by evidence. GregorB (talk) 20:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Israelis are a nation, not a race or an ethnic group. GregorB (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 3[edit]

The Washington Post and New York Times dismiss the rumors in the report you hold in such high regard as unfounded. Factsontheground does not mention these, but writes as though it was only Jewish newspapers that dismiss these rumors. As to the findings of the report that the Israelis allegedly under investigation had been in the military, I remind you that all Israelis serve in the military. And it is the custom for them to travel abroad after they get out and work as clerks in kiosks while they travel. I submit that if there was a shred of reliable evidence to these allegations, there would be a swarm of reporters covering it. Can you imagine? Israelis sending agents discuisesd as art students to penetrate American intelligence? What a story! It would be everywhere! There would be a United Nations investibgation! Ralph Nadar would issue a statement! Instead, after the smattering of coverage in Europe and on Salon.com, there is one story each in Haaretz The Forward and the Washington Post saying it didn't happen, the New York Times refusing to dignify it with an article because they investigated and found that it did not happen, and then nothing except several years of conspiracy theories on web sites. And this is what you want Wikipedia to have an article about?AMuseo (talk) 02:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you provide links to these articles please? Unomi (talk) 14:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 4[edit]

Sorry, I don't understand this objection -- the two issues are deeply connected to each other. Every article about the spying allegations makes it very clear that the perpetrators were claiming to be Israeli art students and were also engaged in the art scam. The "art students" tried to sell art to federal officials using the exact same modus operadi as the other reports of the art student scam that were being perpetrated for entirely economic reasons. For example the Salon.com article described the scam in detail:
The "art students" followed a predictable modus operandi. They generally worked in teams, typically consisting of a driver, who was the team leader, and three or four subordinates. The driver would drop the "salespeople" off at a given location and return to pick them up some hours later. The "salespeople" entered offices or approached agents in their offices or homes. Sometimes they pitched their artwork -- landscapes, abstract works, homemade pins and other items they carried about in portfolios. At other times, they simply attempted to engage agents in conversation. If asked about their studies, they generally said they were from the Bezalel Academy of Arts and Design in Jerusalem or the University of Jerusalem (which does not exist).Factsontheground (talk) 07:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If I didn't see this section, it's hardly my fault, because your article didn't actually describe the connection. However, the sources seem quite ambiguous and heterogenous still. One of them talks of people not peddling artworks, but selling toys at kiosks. One of them says that "there may be two groups involved, [...] One group has an apparently legitimate money- making goal while the second, perhaps a non-Israeli group, may have ties to a Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist group." I'm not seeing sources that explicitly link the spying-related reports to the scam-related reports (involving fake/overpriced art) mentioned in the first section. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, first you complained that the sources didn't connect the two subjects. Now that I have shown that at least one source makes the connection you want there to be an explicit mention of the connection in the article. That seems like a moving goalpost.
The NCIX report also explicitly makes the connection between the two:
If challenged, the individuals state that they are delivering artwork from a studio in Miami, Florida, called Universal Art, Inc, or that they are art students and are looking for opinions regarding their work. These individuals have been described as aggressive. They attempt to engage employees in conversation rather than giving a sales pitch...Other reporting indicates that there may be two groups involved, and they refer to themselves as "Israeli art students." One group has an apparently legitimate money- making goal while the second, perhaps a non-Israeli group, may have ties to a Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist group.
The Haaretz article also makes the connection. How many sources do you need? Factsontheground (talk) 08:37, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, the NCIX report is not making a connection between the alleged spies and those who were trying to fraudulently sell cheap mass-produced prints from China as their own allegedly original artwork. The NCIX report mentions they claimed to represent a Miami studio. That's a different pattern; no allegations of a "scam" of art fraud in this context. Your article also fails to represent the suggestion in the same source that there may be several entirely unrelated groups involved. Finally, the Haaretz article is entirely derivative, just rehashing sources that you have already cited, so it can't serve as additional confirmation of anything; besides, it isn't making the connection to the commercial scam either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, what the Haaretz article adds is additional evidence of notability, rather than additional facts. And while I'm still mulling over the various arguments here, I don't think there can be any doubt about the link between the "art students" and the espionage allegations. The Haaretz article itself summarizes the story as follows:
According to reports of the scandal, around 120 young Israeli citizens, posing as art students and selling paintings door-to-door, have been arrested and deported from the United States. The door-to-door sale of art works, it is claimed, was a front for a sophisticated spy ring: the students would turn up at homes and offices - especially at buildings housing federal authorities and military bases, and even went to the homes of those employed in these offices. The students attempted to form friendships with federal employees, photograph their offices, tap their phone lines and infiltrate their databases. That seems pretty unequivocal to me. Gatoclass (talk) 12:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still not seeing anything in there that draws a connection between these door-to-door salespeople in the US, who were suspected of espionage, and those that were found to be selling fraudulent Chinese reproductions in Australia or Canada. The article is currently claiming that this all, including the spying activities, is one single scheme. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article doesn't say they are "one single scheme", it just says they are "closely related". And certainly, the relationship has been noted by the sources. For example, the Forward magazine article states that:
Over the years, government officials from the United States, Israel and Canada have all officially dismissed speculation about the ring. In one instance, an American official described allegations of spying as “an urban myth.” Despite all the media attention, no evidence has ever been uncovered proving that the operation involves anything more than college-age students, recruited by handlers in Israel, to go door-to-door trying to persuade office managers and affluent housewives to pay up to several thousand dollars for $20 paintings hammered out in Far Eastern workshops. ... Reports of the scam and allegations that it might be a front for Israeli espionage first surfaced in the United States in 2000 ... Gatoclass (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After recent improvements and pruning of the article, which has helped to clarify the relation between the scam and the spying allegations and put both in proper context (as of this version), I go for keep and preferably rename to Art student scam. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 5[edit]

Unencyclopedic" is meaningless in an argument, really. Basically it means "anything not worthy of being included in an encyclopedia", which is synonymous with "should not be included" or "I want it deleted". So when you use it as a justification for deleting something, it's a circular argument: "Delete, because I want it deleted". This is just repeating yourself. What we want to know are your reasons why you think something shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. Simply explain what policies it breaks and how it breaks them.
The allegations were made, and never proven, so titling it "Israeli art student scam" is more NPOV than titling "Israeli art student spy ring".
No, since the allegations were never proven, a more NPOV title would be "Israeli art student conspiracy theory". However, that's not the point. Unlike you claim, none of the sources that you provided, or, as far as I can tell, the sources of the article, link the scam with the alleged spy ring. In fact, the article itself does not make such a connection. Therefore, the WP:COATRACK argument is fairly solid and should be the basis for deleting the article. Other arguments for deletion exist, but they are not important here in light of the fact that this is an article re-created from a deleted one, which deals with a conspiracy theory that is in no way related to what the article purports to be about (an Israeli art student scam). —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This reads like an argument for renaming the article, rather than for deleting it. If it's renamed to Israeli art student conspiracy theory, then it is precisely about what the title says, and all WP:COATRACK arguments become invalid. GregorB (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Contrary to what you saw Ynhockey, many of the articles cited make a connection between the art students, their selling of fake art and spy ring allegations. Take the article in The Telegraph for example. It states:

The leaked report was compiled by the Drug Enforcement Administration after some of its offices were allegedly targeted by Israelis posing as art students. "That these people are now travelling in the US selling art seems not to fit their background," the DEA report said.
On Oct 31, the FBI and Immigration and Naturalisation Service officers arrested about 60 young Israelis in San Diego, Kansas City, Cleveland, Houston and St Louis. All had been selling toys at kiosks in shopping centres across America and the FBI is reported to have been investigating this as a front operation for espionage activities.

So its patently false to say this connection is WP:OR or that the article is coatracking them into a subject that's unrelated. That the connection is not made sufficiently explicit in our article is an argument to improve the article's contents, not to delete it. Tiamuttalk 21:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tiamut, you just proved my point. Even the article you posted in The Telegraph makes no connection between the cases. It talks about a conspiracy theory where Israeli art students were involved. It says that they were selling art, which is what legitimate art students do. It has nothing to do with the scam. The connection you are making is pure original research. —Ynhockey (Talk) 02:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ynhockey, you seem not to reading very closely. The article clearly makes the connection between Israelis selling things at kiosks and the FBI investigating this as a front operation for espionage activities. It also says the DEA report find the activities of Israeli art students to be inconsistent wit the mere selling of art. This is an excerpt from just one article cited in our article. Others are even more explicit on the connection, as for example, the Insight on the News article, where the title alone outlines the connection : Intelligence agents or art students? The DEA and Justice Department believe there was something sinister behind unusual visits Israeli `art students' paid to employees of law-enforcement agencies. There are many more examples. Tiamuttalk 12:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tiamut, you have again precisely proven my point. Even if there were Israelis posing as art students who were spies (a wild conspiracy theory in itself), this has nothing to do with the scam, which talks about Israelis selling cheap art in the guise of valuable art. Please stop looking for conspiracy theories in everything, and stick to what the sources actually say. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ynhockey, are you reading the links I am providing you? I'm not looking for conspiracy theories in everything. You are not reading correctly or are urposely misdirecting your fellow editors though. The Insight on the News article I linked to above states:

*The "Israeli art students" -- so dubbed because that's how they described themselves to various law-enforcement officials when confronted -- were both male and female and, as appropriate to their ages and required under Israeli law, served that nation's military [...]
*Reports of Israeli art students calling on DEA employees began at least as early as January 2000 and continued through at least June 2001 [...]
* The stories offered by the Israeli art students "are remarkable in their consistency" insofar as they state they either are from the University of Jerusalem or the Bezalel Academy of Arts in Jerusalem." [...]
*Despite the students' claims that they had themselves produced the artwork or paintings they were offering for sale, "information has been received which indicates the art is actually produced in China."
All this is contained in official DEA documents obtained by INSIght, including one produced in early June 2001. These represent an extraordinary compilation by DEA's Office of Security Programs chronicling not only contacts of DEA personnel at home or at their offices, but also similar incidents involving employees of other agencies and the military [...]
"The nature of the individuals' conduct, combined with intelligence information and historical information regarding past incidents involving Israeli organized crime, leads IS [DEA's Internal Security division] to believe the incidents may well be an organized intelligence-gathering activity," a classified document euphemizes.
The documents do not clearly label the activities of the so-called art students as a government-sanctioned spying operation, as widely reported. But they do make clear there is a covert nature to the well-orchestrated activities. In one reference, DEA said telephone numbers obtained from one encounter with its agents in Orlando, Fla., "have been linked to several ongoing DEA MDMA [the illegal drug Ecstasy] investigations in Florida, California, Texas and New York now being closely coordinated by DEA headquarters" in Washington.

There is no synthesis in the article. The reliable sources cited state clearly that the self-identified "Israeli art students" are suspected to be operating an espionage ring. As I said earlier, its more NPOV to use the title "Israel art students scam" than it is to use "Israeli art student spy ring". While both refer to the same set of incidents, the allegation that there were spies is denied by the Israeli government among others. Its important that people here understand that the link between the art scam and the espionage ring is made by reliable sources, so it is not coatracking to include them under the current title. Tiamuttalk 12:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 6[edit]

There's no synth, the sources cited make the connections made in our article. A quick look at the sources show there are mutliple RS's so its not fringe. We have notability guidelines, and they are met for this topic. Its not for you to decide based on personal prejudicies what is encyclopedic and what is not. Tiamuttalk 21:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It really hurts my feelings when you personally critisize me like that. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I struck the comment because I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. Can you please answer GregorB's question below? Tiamuttalk 21:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much. I feel much better now.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please point to a single instance of synthesis in the article and I'm going to delete it straight away. GregorB (talk) 21:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The entire article consists of different rumors from different eras in different countries. The classic wp:synth.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's WP:SYNTH only if these "rumors" are used to construct a conclusion which does not appear in any of the sources. ("Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.") But which conclusion would that be? GregorB (talk) 22:11, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think that's the point. The question is not about whether this was actually a spy ring or not, but whether there are sufficient reliable sources which reported on the story to make it notable. Gatoclass (talk) 06:48, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the article was about a scam done for economic purposes. Now it's about an espionage ring? Seems pretty WP:COATRACK to me. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the extensive quotes I provided you from the Insight on the News article that detail the links between the art scam and the espionage allegations, I find this remark to be incredibly disingenuous. Tiamuttalk 12:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you feel that the article name is misleading, that can be settled by simply renaming it. Surely this would not be a valid argument for deletion. (BTW, my proposal was Israeli art student fraud, which does not imply material gain as a motive.) GregorB (talk) 12:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Insight on the News? Sun Myung Moon's Insight on the News? From the family of the Washington Times and UPI? Why would anyone think they're dealing with a conspiracy theory? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't make strawman arugments. There are many other sources who discuss it as well, including Haaretz, The Guardian, Salon.com, etc. Tiamuttalk 16:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 7[edit]

No mainstream sources?
Jane's doesn't even mention art students. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They mention "Israeli students", and its clear from the context that they are discussing the self-same "Israeli art students". Tiamuttalk 22:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...and it refers to a March 5, 2002 Le Monde article which apparently does mention art students. GregorB (talk) 22:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian, Telegraph and Jane's are reporting about a leaked draft DEA report regarding a spy ring, not a "scam". According to the report, they were not trying to sell mass produced paintings for exhorbiant prices in the attempt to make money. They were trying to gain access to places to gain information. The "scam" article is an obvious COATRACK. I suspect some people know that an article consisting only of "once upon a time some guy at the DEA said Israeli art students were trying to gain access to buildings but the NYT concluded the report lacked a suitable factual base" would be problematic. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The best overview I have seen is the Haaretz article. [6] This is a highly respected reliable source. Add the less comprehensive Guardian and Telegraph articles, and there can be no doubt that this is a notable topic. The connection between the 2001 DEA document leaked in 2002 and the ongoing scam is not original research, as it is made very explicitly by Haaretz.
The scam should have an article in the same way that Three-card Monte has an article. Due to the strong connection that is also the natural place for the conspiracy theory. Hans Adler 17:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed my !vote after noting that the Haaretz article dates from 2002, which makes matters appear in a very different light. Now I think it's probably best for the encyclopedia to delete this article, but still think it's hard to justify based on current guidelines. Hans Adler 09:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A closing note: The person who created this article has now tried to delete my vote on the grounds that it is "topic-banned." That is false and hypocritical. An alleged art scam by people posing as Israelis in America has nothing to do with "the Palestinian-Israeli conflict."
Hey don't worry about it to much. Easy enough mistake to make with the whole "broadly construed" thing. It really shouldn't be under the topic ban so lets stay on point?Cptnono (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well consensus is a cruel mistress. As you said, it is two subjects. It might be better after an article (or maybe 2) can be written that is compliant with the multiple policies and guidelines mentioned above. The article is not OK for the mainspace as is. We have userspaces and I hope they will be used.Cptnono (talk) 08:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, invalid are all votes based on "rumors" or "urban myth" (because the article merely repeats what the sources say, so WP:V), WP:SYNTH (no original express or implied conclusions in the article, or at least nobody volunteered to point at one) and WP:COATRACK (COATRACK is when you tack biased content onto a legitimate subject, but again: the article is repeating what the sources say, and sources themselves discuss both the "scam thing" and the "spying thing" together, which is only natural, because the conundrum is precisely in the relation - or lack thereof - between all those disparate cases; "cure" for COATRACK would normally be to delete "biased" parts, but in this case, a "cure" like that would be ridiculous - imagine all those newspapers doing the same).
This is supposed to be a discussion, not votestacking. I expect the outcome to be keep, unless we see some better counter-arguments. GregorB (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that WP:FRINGE says Due consideration should be given to the fact that reputable news sources often cover less than strictly notable topics in a lighthearted fashion, such as on April Fool's Day, as "News of the Weird" or during "slow news days". (See junk food news and silly season.) It is therefore a relevant question hwo many of these newspapers returned to the story more than once (i.e. regarded it as a genuinely important topic) and how many just used it for filler. In any case, WP:NOTNEWS applies. Just because something gets some press coverage does not make it an encyclopedic topic.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. By the way, unfortunately the Haaretz article is undated, but numerous links that exist on the web suggest that it appeared in the first half of 2002. The obvious pragmatic solutions to be to keep the article for discussion of the scam, and confine the conspiracy stuff including the leaked DEA document to a short section. Hans Adler 13:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTNEWS does not apply. I could not detect a "lighthearted" approach in any of the sources (though I must say I haven't checked them all), and the subject is not frivolous. I presume that if the United States Department of Justice issues a statement on something, then this cannot be equated with news items such as "world's longest sausage", "cat with two heads", or the like. GregorB (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 8[edit]

Even if [[WP:COATRACK were to be accepted as policy, the WP:COATRACK essay itself does not advocate the deletion of contravening articles. Rather, it says An appropriate response to a coatrack article is to be bold and trim off excessive biased content while adding more balanced content cited from reliable sources. In extreme cases, when notability is borderline, and there is little chance the article can be salvaged, deletion of the entire article may be appropriate. So people who want this article deleted must at the very least argue for a lack of notability. Which no one is doing. Factsontheground (talk) 10:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:NOTE Yazan (talk) 10:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Another editor thought this was related. I think the article in question is much different but I feel it is inappropriate to disregard it completely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_art_students Are we done with this back and forth Factsontheground?Cptnono (talk) 12:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Why not to create a section in the article describing the criticism of the so-called plot and the denial of it (if any sources are available)? Mohamed Magdy "Mido", Thank You! 18:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Total coatrack. And yes, I read the sources. This is the kind of thing that miiiight make Jon Stewart giggle. Here is the real joke: it doesn't take much of a half-assed rumor these days to get the US security apparatus to issue warnings like, "don't let unauthorized people into buildings that require authorization for entry." If Janes finds the American response understated, I'd say there is just one too many conspiracy buffs working at Janes. And my apologies to my British friends for not paying more respect to a cherished British institution. Knowing how the media work, I don't cherish much these days. There is such a need for news to cover, news media will report on anything, as long as someone gives them a press release or with a little retouching they can copy from one another. Just because it is in the news does not make it notable (or maybe you and I are not reading and watching the same news outlets); mayyybe if it is covered by one newspaper or news channel for more than ten consecutive days, I would call it notable. I have always had mixed feelings about Wikipedia reporting the news. I am willing to grant that many news items are also encyclopedia topics. But many aint, and this is just one, er, two, of them that ain't. And what is this about a Chinese Rolex scam? You mean Rolex doesn't have a China office? I am serious! This needs investigating!! Slrubenstein | Talk 01:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

art student break 9[edit]

As pointed out early in the discussion, that was clearly a very different article to the one we are debating. Could you also point out which parts of the article are synthesised as well please? Smartse (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Everything in this article supporting its "notability" stems from a single discredited DEA report that got a burst of coverage when it corresponded to certain publications' political views, and then disappeared from coverage once it was discredited and there was no additional evidence. I fail to see how the discussion of the earlier article could possibly be different: there's no reliable sources in this one other than the debunking, and you can't be worse than zero. So any differences are differences without a distinction. As I noted, the sourced debunking has some encyclopedic merit in the conspiracy-theory article; there's no reason for a standalone that is destined to be an orphan just so one can have a coatrack of outdated speculative journalism that was overtaken by events. Vis-a-vis synthesis, as others have noted, this article gloms together two topics to make it seem more notable than it is. Pretty clear case of WP:PUFF. THF (talk) 18:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The DEA report is a primary source, but there are many secondary sources that argue for the notability of this issue such as Haaretz, Forward Magazine, Salon.com, Jane's Intelligence, The Guardian and The Telegraph. Wikipedia policy is to prefer the use of secondary sources over primary sources where possible.
If you read the arguments above you can that this article is not "glomming" anything together; multiple reliable sources treat the topics of the spying and the scam as interrelated. And it obvious that they are to any neutral observer. Factsontheground (talk) 03:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You say "there's no reliable sources in this one other than the debunking" which is categorically false. Show me the sources that "debunk" the claims instead of presenting them in a balanced fashion with both positive and negative evidence like [Haaretz]], Salon.com, Jane's Intelligence, The Guardian, The Telegraph. Why don't you think these mainstream media sources are reliable? Factsontheground (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for demonstrating my point: every single one of those secondary sources has no story unless they rely on the discredited DEA report. There's just a single non-reliable source being repeated multiple times across multiple sources and then trying to bootstrap that into reliability and notability: this is pure WP:PUFF. THF (talk) 23:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is it propaganda exactly? As plenty of people have pointed out it has been reported by multiple reliable sources and should be included in the encyclopedia regardless of whether it is true or false or whether you like it or not. Smartse (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AFD is a discussion, not a vote. You have to put together a coherent argument to delete based upon Wikipedia policy, not just say you don't like it. Factsontheground (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I don't understand you objections. Again, WP:AFD is a discussion, not a vote. You have to put together a coherent argument to delete based upon Wikipedia policy, not just say you don't like it. Factsontheground (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You apparently failed to understand my simple arguments which were had nothing to do with my personall taste. Try to avoid ad hominem assertions and to keep on NPOV. Oh, and don't falsify what others write.--Gilisa (talk) 11:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neither Gilisa or Kuratowski referenced Wikipedia policy in their statements (which were purely "votes"). JFW argument has been challenged above. Factsontheground (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, Delete per nominator, and THF, and (as before ), "et al.", since you seem intent on sniping at everyone who votes in a way you don't like. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is clearly not WP:NONSENSE and you are being disingenuous in making that argument. It is also not WP:OR or WP:MADEUP - it is supported by a large number of reliable sources including Haaretz, Forward Magazine, Salon.com, Jane's Intelligence, The Guardian, The Telegraph. Inserting untruths into this discussion, Izak, is not acceptable behaviour. Factsontheground (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COATRACK is an essay (not a policy or guideline that only advocates deleting articles if the topic is completely non-notable. The previous article was completely different and only shares the same broad topic as the current one. Factsontheground (talk) 03:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article does not have one clear focus, but it is not completely different from Israeli art students. Also, it is not a good idea to write articles about vague news that has attracted little media attention and even worse is to recreate such articles after they have been deleted through a community decision. gidonb (talk) 15:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Truth is not a concern of Wikipedia, just verifiability and notability. As Wikpedia's verifiability policy states - "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". And it's funny that you "don't see anything beyond a rumor" when there are in fact in-depth reports about this issue in Haaretz, Forward Magazine, Salon.com, Jane's Intelligence, The Guardian, The Telegraph and official reports from the DEA and UNCIX about this issue. Factsontheground (talk) 03:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FotG and a couple other editors can argue every delete vote all they want. I think it is clear that the article as is cannot be allowed in the mainspace. Maybe after a little bit of TLC and direction it will be OK but until then it is just OK.Cptnono (talk) 10:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To delete this article from mainspace, you have to argue that there is a consensus to delete in this discussion. Good luck with that. Factsontheground (talk) 10:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
True. There is no consensus to delete. It is a good thing that admins can look past voting and see policy and guideline violations. No worries if they do not: I personally will have fun raping it because it is a terrible article.Cptnono (talk) 10:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And we should be done. The article is now in at least some compliance. Consider renaming this article and starting a new one for the espionage stuff or integrating the current content over there. Merging into preexisting articles may still be the best bet since even barley notable topics can get mention somewhere Cptnono (talk) 10:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But we weren't. I just got noticeboarded for the bold edit. I still think it was necessary to bring this article up to Wikipedia's standards but was asked to no do that. The article is still a giant zit on Wikipeida as is.Cptnono (talk) 11:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note. It appears there is a well known Chinese art student scam that is very similar to this one. List of confidence tricks explains it as follows:

Art Student Scam is also very common in major Chinese cities. A small group of 'students' will start a conversation, claiming that they want to practice their English. After a short time they will change the topic to education and will claim that they are art students and they want to take you to a free exhibition. The exhibition will usually be in a small, well hidden rented office and the students will show you some pieces which they claim to be their own work and will try to sell them at a high price, despite the pieces usually being nothing more than an internet printout worth a fraction of their asking price. They will often try 'guilt tricks' on people who try to bargain the price.

The list does give an explicit reference, but there are numerous mentions of this scam on the web and I have no doubt reliable sources can be found. Therefore I am now changing my !vote as follows: Rename to Art student scam. Hans Adler 13:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse-Bazinga! We have found our solution. I have also struck out my keep and change to rename.--Adam in MO Talk 14:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done the same. This is a very good solution. GregorB (talk) 15:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article rewritten[edit]

After initially fixing only the lead, I have rewritten the article and reduced the conspiracy theory stuff to reasonable dimensions. I still can't understand how so many can be voting for deletion based simply on the original bad state of the article as opposed to an actual analysis of the sources. To quote a 2004 article in Forward Magazine:

"The art-selling operation, which first surfaced in the United States in 2000, has been reported on by The Washington Post, Fox News, Salon.com, Ha’aretz and most extensively by the Atlanta-based alternative newspaper Creative Loafing. It has for three years now been a hotly debated topic among amateur spy watchers and on conspiracy theory Web sites." [11]

Here is a permanent link to the clean version of the article, in case the conspiracy cruft gets reverted back in. Please help by watching the article. This AfD page is currently watched by 51 editors; the article itself is watched by less than 30 editors. Conspiracy theorists will not go away just because we delete their favourite articles. We must watch them. Hans Adler 08:34, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As will be noticed, the article is currently written as if it had the name Art student scam. I believe renaming it in this way is appropriate since the two versions of the spam are so closely related. Obviously, it also makes a lot of sense in terms of controlling the cruft. Hans Adler 08:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, I am afraid we can't use it for the article, but here is a nice video about a tourist's experience with the scam, complete with photos of the scammers and the exhibition. [12] The relevant part starts at 4:20. Hans Adler 09:01, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
More