The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Henge. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:23, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Henge monuments (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a henge monument as a different class of monument from a regular henge. The first pages of a google search reveal the use of monument to merely be a part of the title (like Stone monument) and not indicating anything different from henge alone. English Heritage's Monuments Protection Program list a henge and henge monument as the same thing (but tellingly separates Henge enclosures and Hengiform monuments), the Archaeology Data Service and Pastscape have no idea what I'm talking about when I search it (and several henge's claimed to be henge monuments in this article are instead listed (correctly) as henge enclosures). Nor can I find the term in any of my books (admittedly I haven't checked all of them there are quite a few). In short, this is the only place I'm seeing this description of a henge monument as a seperate class of monuments, and I'm pretty sure it isn't. I'd actually recommend salting this one, it appears to be a rather misinformed (and misinforming) article. Ranger Steve (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and Merge into Henge - There is a definite mix of terms which is confusing to the general reader. The article is technically correct to be separated from Henge but is infact misled as per my note at the bottom. This has been caused by the use of monument (something rasied to commemorate) all over the place where it is not really applicable.

Comment - A henge is simply the bank and ditch [1] - these can be broken down into three groups.

1 Henge enclosure[2] The largest type of structure - massive earthworks with no monuments or other features (edited out), such as at Durrington Walls or MARDEN HENGE NMP and normally used for living inside of it.

2 Henge The medium size 20+m - all the rest and is almost always referred to as "a henge monument (as they normally have mounuments inside) and were not used for living inside of.

3 hengi-form[3] is a smaller version of a henge and can be with or without monuments. Technically Stonehenge is not a henge at all ?? - the statement is a little askew as Stonehenge has a ditch and bank and a few entrances.... It may be that the Archaeological community decides to eventually classify them as three separate things: Henge enclosure, Henge monument and hengiform enclosure. Some henges are referred to as "Henge Monuments" when in fact they are not truly monuments Henge enclosures and hengiform are often referred to as monuments. Monuments are raised to commemorate and so henge monuments really are the monuments found in henges such as wooden circles, stone circles or barrows.

Note - Technically the Henge article should be turned into a disambiguation page which would point to henge enclosure, henge (monument) and hengiform and the contents of henge monument would be that which is currently in the henge article. (signature deleted somehow? Chaosdruid (talk) 17:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

• Here are some references with henge monument in the title: ^[1][2][3]. They are rather old, so perhaps terminology has changed since the 60s?

Comment - a monument isn't always something raised to commemorate something, in Britain it can mean any ancient or even just not new structure, e.g. Edinburgh Castle is a historic monument, so every Neolithic sites is a monument by (legal?) definition. I think everyone agrees that a henge is the bank and ditch earthwork; so since it is ancient it is correct to talk of a henge (nothing else besides the earthwork) as being a 'monument', but the issue is whether it is a 'henge monument'. Durrington Walls, which is given as the example of a henge enclosure above, actually does have 'monuments' (I think a better term would be 'ritual monuments') inside it - there are several timber circles. And not all henges have ritual monuments inside them, see e.g. Thornborough Henges (or at least nothing has been found yet).

I'm not sure Henge should be a disambiguation page. It seems to me that a henge is the overall identifier, but strictly also means a Neolithic earthwork with a ditch and external bank with central area of diameter > 20 m. A hengiform "is a smaller version of a henge" (as stated above, and I would read that as saying it is a type of henge?) with central diameter < 20 m. (N.B. Strictly the definition of one of these should include an =, thus <= or >=, as otherwise it excludes a feature with an exact diameter of 20 m). A henge enclosure it says is anything from 17 - 500 m internal diameter (why 17 m and not 20 m BTW?) associated with domestic use (and it may or might not have ritual monuments - which would be consistent with Durrington Walls being a henge enclosure). But the defining feature of a henge enclosure is that the bank is outside the ditch so it clearly was not built for defense, and is thus also a type of henge. Stonehenge is atypical with the bank inside the ditch, but it is a type of henge as it was also clearly not built for defense? If we were to go with this set of definitions do we say a 'henge monument' is a type of henge that has a 'true' henge which contains ritual monuments, or do we say that the term henge may also be used to refer to a henge which contains ritual monuments? What do the archaeologists say? Aarghdvaark (talk) 13:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• So in fact what I'm suggesting is I think much the same as Chaosdruid, in that I think henge enclosure, henge monument and hengiform monument should all be merged into henge (but as a proper article, not a disambiguation page). But before I go posting that - what do others think?

And I also found some more articles with 'henge monument' in the title (latest 1987): ^[4][5] Aarghdvaark (talk) 14:01, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to use one source for the defs - I decided on English heritage but they are pretty fluid in their terms. Tey do say that a henge is a "flat area over 20m in diameter" and "A henge-enclosure...usually over 300m across"

From that a hengi-form would be <=20m, henge >20m and <=300m and henge-enclosure >300m

As for the rest, well each archaologist works from several ref books and old professors and they do not always agree on sizes etc lol. One of my m8s is an archaologist specialising in Neolithic and pinning him down to any term is near impossible...

Chaosdruid (talk) 22:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I didn't see my mistake in Henge-enclosure : I've stricken it out (? that sounds wrong) - I was trying to say as per the last line of the EH doc about not confusing it with a monumental henge which could be a henge but over 300m with stones and circles in it...

And that is basically where the definitions introduce the idea of a "henge-monument" "Specifically excluded from this definition of henge-enclosures are large standard henge monuments. Such sites contain a rather different range of components and lack the abundant evidence for occupation in the interior which is found on henge- enclosures." That gives us the 4 types -

1 Hengiform-monument <=20m

2 Henge >20m <=300m

3 Henge-monument >20 m and undetermined top size

4 Henge-enclosure >300m

You can see that henge is rarely used as we are not finding any 2 henges. Its mostly the other three 1, 3 &4

Chaosdruid (talk) 22:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget 12:35, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect all these "Henge ..." articles into one proper article "Henge". Here is a dictionary definition of "henge":^[6] "a Neolithic monument of the British Isles, consisting of a circular area enclosed by a bank and ditch and often containing additional features including one or more circles of upright stone or wood pillars: probably used for ritual purposes or for marking astronomical events, as solstices and equinoxes." All henges are monuments, and the combination "henge monument" is somewhat pleonastic, like "cleaver knife" or "grappa brandy". The present article is like having an article "Cathedral church" explaining how it is different from a "cathedral door", with a disambiguation page for "Cathedral".  --Lambiam 20:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Lambian, agreed - I think the consensus is there should only be one article called henge, but we needed to figure out (not easy as its difficult to track definitive sources down) what the different sub-types are. I think as per Chaosdruid above we've about sorted those out now, except Chaosdruid hasn't found many refs to a plain and simple henge. There is an example in Thornborough Henges, and possibly they are not mentioned as much because they seem a bit boring compared to henge-monuments, henge-enclosures, etc.? But I think 'henge' is a distinct sub-type of henge. I agree the name 'henge monument' is a bit of a cludge, but that seems to be what archaeologists call them. I don't think we need to give upper limits, as that seems to be set by whatever is the largest? So basically amending Chaosdruid as per above we get (flat area diameter):

1 Hengiform-monument (<=20m) regardless of type of structures inside.

2 Henge (>20m) with few if any other structures inside the henge.

3 Henge-monument (>20 m) and including ritual structures inside the henge.

4 Henge-enclosure (typically >300m) and including abundant evidence of occupation inside the henge.

And I think we leave it up to the archaeologists to name a type of henge with evidence of occupation and a diameter 20m < x <= 300m!

Aarghdvaark (talk) 22:48, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my understanding is that the terms henge (your number 2) and henge monument (number 3) are just synonyms. A henge is a particular kind of Neolithic monument, also called "henge monument". As the cited source states: "Henges can sometimes be confused with other kinds of circular monuments" – in other words, henges are circular monuments, although not all circular monuments are henges. There is no lack of theories, but the truth of the matter is that the purpose and function of henges and similar structures is not known. In particular, we do not know with any degree of certainty whether henges, or particular structures in henges, served a ritual purpose. The available sources appear not to make a definitional distinction based on the presence or absence of ritual structures, and so we should not introduce one.

I further think we should avoid getting hung up on the particulars of the definition given by English Heritage; note that they write: "defined for the purposes of the Monuments Protection Programme". Working archaeologists may use different definitions; in particular, I suspect that the "20m" diameter limit is in essence an observation: there are different types of monuments, which in spite of their similarity very likely served different purposes, and which also differ in that one type is considerably smaller than the other type, just like Siamese and other domestic cats have a length that is less than 1m, while tigers and other big cats are longer than 1m: the observed length difference is useful in classifying and a good thing to know, but it is not part of the zoological definitions distinguishing domesticated cats from big cats.  --Lambiam 15:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge Chaosdruid (talk) 17:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The main problem there is that you are confusing henge and circular monument. A stone circle does not have to be within a henge. Secondly a henge-enclosure is not a monumental act, ie raising something as a monument, but more a monument in the sense of "a thing from history".

The BBC website also uses the term "official definition"[4] but fails to provide where this official definition comes from.

I have rung English heritage and have been given a contact number for the archaeological centre and the head of research. I propose to ask them the question of whether archaeologists use the EH definitions, whether the EH definitions are in tandem with archaeologists definitions (by being from another third source) or if archaeologists use different definitions and if so where to find the correct reference texts whcih include those.

I would point you to the EH document Guidance on the Use of Monument Class Descriptions which is from the main page of their MONUMENT CLASS DESCRIPTIONS page. Chaosdruid (talk) 17:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Lambian here - henge monument is just a synonym for a henge. Within archaeology, some henges are described as henge enclosures (or occasionally as super-henges), while other, smaller ones are known as hengiform (or occasionally as mini-henges). I think the 3 forms are probably distinctive enough to have their own articles, but realistically I think it would be easier to merge everything into a single henge article, distinguishing the different types. My main issue though is that there is no separate class of monument called "henge monuments" that have any different features to a regular henge. I haven't seen any information that says otherwise yet - Chaosdruid, I really think the quote you use is just separating henge enclosure from a standard henge. Ranger Steve (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can say something about the use of henges Lambian even if we don't know how they were used. Firstly they are obviously not defensive, unless to keep something in rather than out, secondly henges (and henge monuments) have little indication of domestic use, unlike henge enclosures. That really only leaves ritual use, which admittedly can be a catch all to cover all the things we can't think of. Everything Neolithic is a monument in one sense: barrows, stone circles, henges, and henge monuments. One way of sorting out henge and henge monument is to ask the questions: "is Avebury a henge?" or "does Avebury contain a henge?" I think the answer to that is that it contains a henge. Then ask "is Avebury a henge monument?" The answer to that I think determines what we do. I'd point out that Arbor Low is called a henge monument in the literature (see refs). My reading of the defn. Chaosdruid cites is that there is more going on in a henge monument than in a henge: "large standard henge monuments. Such sites contain a rather different range of components" Aarghdvaark (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the different range of components are the ones listed in the definition for henge on that site. In my reading of that sentence, they are talking about standard henges, not a separate class of monument (from henge or henge enclosure) - after all, they don't list henge monument separately.

We can of course talk about what henges might be for in the article - there are more than enough theories published in reliable sources, but that is for the talk page of that article when we sort this out.

Avebury is perhaps not the best example to use, as the name is popularly used merely for the main monument, but here goes. Avebury is a village and parish in northern Wiltshire. Within that parish, and beyond it, is a WHS covering an array of monuments. One such monument is an avenue, another is Britain's largest man made mound. There is also a large henge (not a henge enclosure apparently, I should add), within which are the remains of several stone circles. It is a fairly typical - if very large - henge. It is a monument, it is also a scheduled ancient monument. You might call it a henge monument, but the second word of that description is superfluous. There is some confusion about Avebury - some sources call it a henge enclosure, but by the MPP definition, it is excluded from that description and is instead just a large henge because it lacks any signs of habitation and instead has "a rather different range of components". Ranger Steve (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Aarghdvaark: In Wikipedia we can only report what we find in reliable sources. If reliable sources say that henges were used for fancy fairs, then that is what we report; our own original research does not matter. As far as I can see, the consensus in scholarly sources is: We are not really sure – perhaps this, perhaps that, perhaps both, perhaps something else. The only way of sorting out a distinction between henge and henge monument is to cite reliable sources that describe these concepts as being distinct; what we personally think may be a distinction is irrelevant. I do not see any sources that describe them as distinct. On the contrary, it is rather clear in many sources that they are just synonyms, used interchangeably.^{[7][8][9][10]}  --Lambiam 23:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well I think you've shown enough sources to show that henge and henge monument are often synonyms :) I wasn't doing original research though - I was trying to make sense of the definitions. So, with approximate diameter of the internal flat area in brackets,

1. Henge (>20m). The word henge refers to a particular type of earthwork of the Neolithic period, typically consisting of a roughly circular or oval-shaped bank with an internal ditch surrounding a central flat area of more than 20 m diameter. There is typically little if any evidence of occupation in a henge, although they may contain ritual structures such as stone circles etc., and the design is clearly not meant to be defensive. Henge monument is sometimes used as a synonym for henge. Examples of henges are Avebury, which contains the largest stone circle in Britain, the Great Circle at Stanton Drew stone circles, which contains the second largest stone circle in Britain, and the Ring of Brodgar which contains the third largest stone circle in Britain. Example of henges without other significant internal monuments are the three henges of Thornborough Henges. Stonehenge, although having given its name to the word henge, is atypical in that the main ditch is outside the earthwork bank.

2. Hengiform-monument (<=20m). Similar to a henge but the central flat area is <=20 m in diameter. Mini-henge is sometimes used as a synonym for a hengiform-monument. An example is the Neolithic site at Dorchester on Thames.

3. Henge-enclosure (typically >300m) is similar to a henge in that the ditch is inside the bank, but they are large sites with the central flat area having abundant evidence of occupation and being typically more than 300 m in diameter. Some true henges are as large as this (e.g. Avebury), but lack evidence of domestic occupation. Super-henge is sometimes used as a synonym for a henge-enclosure. Examples of henge enclosures are Durrington Walls and Mount Pleasant Henge.

But how do we distinguish between a henge like those at Thornborough Henges and Arbor Low. Or does the definition of a henge include any number (including none) of ritual structures? Aarghdvaark (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbor Low is just like Avebury - a henge with a stone circle within it. The Thornborough Henges is a slight misnomer - it is the popular name given to a large complex of various monuments, which would probably be more accurately described as Thornborough, North Yorkshire: Neolithic and Bronze-Age monument complex (less catchy though). This is a fairly typical problem, like "Stonehenge World Heritage Site", which leads to the supposition that Stonehenge is the WHS, when in fact it is only one of a thousand monuments in the WHS boundary. Its important to remember that in its simplest form, a henge is a single earthworks. Most other things are "additions" to the henge. Ranger Steve (talk) 17:21, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so have we reached consensus? I've edited and re-arranged the definitions 1 - 3 above. Comments? Aarghdvaark (talk) 09:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.