The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete Doesn't meet WP:ATHLETE as junior level competitions aren't the highest level of amateur competition. Sancho 06:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Elena Mikhaylova (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

No notability according to WP:BIO, no sources confirming article statements, violation of WP:AB. RedAndr (talk) 03:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I beg pardon. From difficulties with translating into the English language, in the article the hidden text is written down sporting achievements. Both status and date, and place of conducting of competitions, is there indicated. The All-russian competitions are important only from them. For confirmation of information gave reference to the images of prize deeds. They are notarized official seals. For example, scan of civil passport — is it an authoritative source? I do not know as in enwiki, and in the ruwiki the winners of general national sporting competitions pass on the criteria of meaningfulness. Thank you for attention. —Участница Udacha (talk) 05:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]
  • Images of prizes and deeds do not constitute evidence of notability, either that of the competitor or that of the prizes themselves. As references, they should be replaced with links to newspaper articles. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 14:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • About all-Russian competitions, let's see, for example, one of them, the highest as it follows from the article: "she won gold in giant slalom in Monchegorsk (2000)". It sounds pretty impressive, but then look at the "source", which is just image of deed. It says: "Elena Mikhaylova is awarded for 3rd place in slalom all-Russia competition among girls of 1985-1986 years of birth." Hmm... Somewhat different, isn't it? 3rd place instead 1st, and only girls of particulate age. And the same situation with all other achievements. These images cannot be proofs, as it is already said above. In addition, the lack of notability follows from fact, that you are just a Candidate for the Master of Sports of Russian Federation. BTW, even this statement does not have source, in the link there is no mention of Elena Mikhaylova. --RedAndr (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You are confusing slalom and giant slalom. These are different things. The article has a table of her awards which you can examine before accusing the author in deception. Slalom and giant slalom awards are listed there. Just read carefully. Additionally, I think the document says "young women ("девушки" as opposed to "девочки-girls") 1985-1988 year of birth", not "1985-1986 year of birth", in other words junior championship. I do not see much of deception here either. SA ru (talk) 21:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Here is the giant slalom certificate. It says first place. SA ru (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails WP:ATHLETE. Even if her record is legit, the "All-Russian" championship isn't the "highest amateur level of a sport" that is the standard. Niteshift36 (talk) 08:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Judging from the links in the article (in Russian), all or almost all competitions mentioned were junior ones. Therefore fails WP:ATHLETE. --Blacklake (talk) 09:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This person is a silver medalist of 2002 Russian Championship in slalom. Even if this is a medal in junior category, this is still a National title. Junior champions are covered by Wikipedia, for example: Adam Rippon, so a definite keep. SA ru (talk) 11:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should be mentioned, that besides winning national titles in junior category Adam Rippon has participated in several top level competitions and is currently ranked 11th here. --Blacklake (talk) 12:40, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I did not conduct a careful search for junior medalists in Wikipedia. Adam Rippon was the first I found, and he is described as a junior champion. So, junior champions are considered notable in Wikipedia. Elena Mikhailova's top achievement appears to be the silver at 2002 Russion National Championship. The number of people with such achievement is limited, so I do not see any problem in making a record of Mikhailova in Wikipedia. She may or may not demonstrate better achievements, but national title is a national title. SA ru (talk) 12:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Here are some other similar junior achievers: Alexis Thompson, Cameron Peck, Philip Francis (golfer), Kevin Tway, Brian Harman and so on. SA ru (talk) 14:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • For example, Thompson have played in U.S. Women's Open (LPGA Tour competition), Brian Harman have played in Walker Cup and Palmer Cup (notable golf competitions), and so on. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, some of these fellows (not all) participated in professional competiotions, but did they do well? Not at all. Sorry. These are identical cases: junior champions without marked achievements in professional sports (yet, of course). SA ru (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you have any doubt about smb.'s notability - AFD is at you service. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • AFD serves to determine notability based on accepted standards, not to destroy Wikipedia's content. Here we have a clear case of a junior champion. A brief research showed that articles about such people are quite common. The main criterion is an achievement in a junior competition of a national or international level. The criterion that you are trying to introduce (participation in international events) simply does not work for this category. It is irrelevant. SA ru (talk) 19:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, fails WP:ATHLETE, only junior competitions. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 15:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Sa_ru. --Stoljaroff1987 (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Гы-гы-гы. Флешмоб оппозиции начинается? — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Не-а, /оскорбление удалено/, не флешмоб :) Просто самому изложить аргументы мне было бы трудновато, т.к. я плохо владею английским (точнее, читать могу, а вот писать/говорить не очень), а Смартасс ещё до меня всё вполне хорошо сформулировал. Мне ничего и не остаётся, как присоединиться к его мнению. --Stoljaroff1987 (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Посмотрим, сколько ещё народу из числа оппозиционеров ру-вики прибежит сюда по призыву вождей :))) — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 17:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  I think you are trolling. Please stop. (This fellow was blocked in ru_wiki for /deception deleted, see my comment/.) SA ru (talk) 19:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• /offtopic/ Not for vandalism, but for disclosure of the personal info, as it is written in my block log. And you know very well that the situation was very ambiguous, see ru:ВП:ИСК424. And my blocks in ru-wiki or anywhere do not matter in this AFD discussion. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 19:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  /offtopic/ OK, not for vandalism, but for disruptive behavior having nothing to do with Wikipedia goals. A few lines above you wrote in Russian: "Let's see who of ru-wiki oppositioners runs here at the order of their leaders". This is called trolling. Disruptive activities before, trolling now. Let's not get engaged in that. SA ru (talk) 20:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Как сказал наш премьер-министр, учите лучше свою жену щи варить. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  This quotation from your prime minister is trolling, as well.SA ru (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  It was said by the person banned in ru-wiki for massive trolling. Sorry, my cher ami ;-) — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 21:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Although this is not the best description of the situation, I take it that you admit that I know what trolling is. Your thread starting from the comment about the "opposition leaders" and ending with the cabbage soup quote from prime minister Putin is trolling. SA ru (talk) 22:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Let us stop this enchanting discussion. :) — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 22:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  This is exactly what I was suggesting! We can continue discussing this junior champion's notability of course, but no "opposition leaders" or irrelevant quotes from Putin, please. SA ru (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Fails WP:ATHLETE. Medal in U-12 junior national competition is definitely not enough, there is only one award at adult level — "Kerosin games", but that doesn't look like a professional competition. All the other achievments are presented by commitees of education of the local council or by a local sport school, those are junior amateur awards — NickK (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  I am curious how you got this U12 category. She was 16 in 2002, so that's a junior national championship, not U12. SA ru (talk) 21:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Additionally, I see at least three awards at the adult, professional level: 2008 Kerosin games - gold, 2007 Diana Sport Cup - silver, 2006 Competition of professional instructors - bronze. You should also take into account the fact that Russia has never been particularly famous for its alpine skiing results (with a few exceptions), so for the national level this is all quite impressive. SA ru (talk) 22:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  It is doubtful that these three competitions at the adult are notable. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 22:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  I can understand that you want to delete the article about this junior champion, but why deny notability of the competitions? I just checked Kerosin Games (there are many publications about them), and this is a very peculiar competition, definitely notable. SA ru (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  What publications? — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 09:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Internet publications. SA ru (talk) 10:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Give me any links, please! — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 12:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  No, it's U12, because she had a medal only in 1998, and 1998-1986=12. However, it's neither professional nor top-level amateur competition. Kerosin Games? Let's read the announcement: everyone may take part, he has just to pay 300 roubles and swear, and one will be able to take par and get a glass of mulled wine. Have you ever seen something at profesional competitions? Definitely not. Diana Sport Cup can't be found in any sources. Competition of professional instructors is an amateur competition judging from the name, it's not a competition of professional skiers but a competition of professional instructors. None of these events are notable — NickK (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  She is a silver medalist of 2002 Russian National Championship in slalom. This is a junior level. Of course, you are right, she had U12 medals, as well. But admit, that U12 was not the only achievement. As far as Kerosin Games, I agree with you. This is a peculiar competition held at night, but not a professional one. Mikhailova's notability can be claimed mostly for junior championships. SA ru (talk) 13:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Article is modified. Fair remarks are considered. The link to site FIS is added. Data on local competitions now are removed. Data on victories on official All-Russia competitions are left. These are victories over competitions among juniors the high rank of all Russia. These competitions have been included in annual Calendars of the Moscow sports committee. Thanks. — Участница Udacha (talk) 18:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]
  • Your 2002 Russian national title is missing from the table. Additionally, change "All-Russia" to "Russian national" SA ru (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. Has corrected. There 2002 — is a typing error. Участница Udacha (talk) 20:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]

• Keep. There is information on the site FIS. The numerous prize-winner of the Russian national competitions. Competitions between juniors have not less meaningfulness, what competitions between invalids. Doubt in authenticity of images — it is not cause for the delete of all article. Because a table can be made invisible until additional information will not specify. —Участница Udacha (talk) 06:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC).[reply]

---

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 12:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note. The Moscow committee of sport makes the official calendar of the All-russian competitions annually. All-russian competitions are conducted on groups. Not only men, women. Also juniors (15—17 years), youths, girls (11—14 years) [1]. Agree, that from the article it is necessary to hide results on local competitions. It is necessary to leave victory on Cups of Russia, on Championships of Russia, on Sports and athletics meeting of Russia. That on competitions which are plugged in Calendar. Thank you. —Участница Udacha (talk) 16:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Two quick points: 1) National Junior anything, regardless of the sport or country, is not the highest level of competition. 2) Will someone please WP:Trout the troll. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  What do you think about Brian Harman then? SA ru (talk) 10:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Walker Cup in which he have played is notable international competition. — Аурелиано Буэндиа (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, Walker Cup is a notable amateur competition, but my understanding is that it is a team competition; so it only marginally applies to individual achievements. Mikhailova, on the other hand performed very well individually in an international competition in Finland. SA ru (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.