The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Johnleemk | Talk 15:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

David Saks[edit]

Unverifiable, doesn't seem to pass WP:MUSIC. See article's talk page for an extensive discussion. Vary | Talk 22:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Verification of any information is provided only on David Saks' own webpages, i.e., there is no independent corroboration. - Jersyko talk 01:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions. -- -- Vary | Talk 01:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • AfD etiquette: Please be familiar with the policies of not biting the newcomers, Best wishes... New User - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.155.69.223 (talk • contribs)

• Delete as unverifiable due to lack of references. I'm open to changing this if somebody cites some reliable sources. Stifle 21:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Authoritative sources have not been found (despite a great effort in searching for relevant information online) to substantiate claims in this article. - Dozenist talk 04:07, 7 February 2006

• Do Not Delete., Verification has been provided that Mr. Saks is the composer of "One Last Bridge" All you need do is look in the archives of The Commercial Appeal (online) instead of Google. Reference 1990 archives.--70.248.228.85 19:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)New User[reply]

Verification Provided

• Do Not Delete.
• If you take the time to visit Mr.Saks' webpages at DavidSaks.Com, in addition to the letterhead from Graceland on his home page declaring it the first cover, you will see links in the upper right corner of the home page that direct the visitor to a page called "APS Letters". You will find on this page the following :
• 1.The Cover of the March 1993 edition of the American Philatelist referring to the editorial written by Mr. Saks which followed the first day event at Graceland.
• 2.A letter of congratulations from the American Philatelist editor, Bill Welch congratulating Mr. Saks for "snagging number one" and "getting his retirement fund off to good start".
• 3.A copy of the honorarium check presented to Mr. Saks by the American Philatelic Society for his guest editorial.
• Other photos on this page are of Mr.Saks with the first day cover at Graceland and a publicity photo in a U.S.P.S. postal truck.

On the page link entitled "FDC Details" you will find:

• 1.A reproduction of the cover including the signatures of Priscilla Presley and other dignitaries who attended the event, including the Mayor of Shelby County, Sam Phillips and the artist who designed the stamp, Mark Stutzman.
• 2.The reverse of the cover signed by Graceland CEO Jack Soden and other dignitaries.
• 3.Examples of the cancellation verifying the cancellation date.
• 4.The reverse side signed by Frank P.Brennan Jr.,General Manager of the Media Relations Division of The United States Postal Service, Bill McAllister, the Philatelic Writer for The Washington Post, and Mark McEwen, anchorman of CBS This Morning.

The Graceland Gate Cancellation adorns the reverse in addition to the circular date stamp of Jan 8,1993,including the Graceland zip code,38101 insuring the cancellation date.

• 5.The second letter of authenticity authorized by Graceland manager Debby Johnson and signed by Graceland merchandising manager the late Laura Ferguson.
• 6.A copy of Mr.Saks' Guest Editorial The American Philatelist March 1993.
• 7.Mr.Saks Editorial 2nd page.

On the "Testimonials" page you will find:

• 1.The article by John Dunn,Editor of Mekeel's Stamp Weekly Proclaiming Mr.Saks' Elvis Presley First Day Cover "One in a Million" February 12,1993, approximatley one month following the event.
• 2.A link to Mr.Saks' biography.

As for sources on the songs and notability, Mr.Saks has met the criterion based on the fact that:

• 1.Has won a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno or Mercury Music Award,i.e.,Official Song of Memphis.
• 2.Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a musician or ensemble that qualifies above., ie, the late Mr.Ruble, as noted on the Fast Mothers site and by the city council resolution.

In addition, a collection of works for the piano are made available on Mr.Saks site. The Fast Mothers site discusses the awards presented Mr.Ruble. In the City Council resolution Mr. Ruble is praised along with Mr.Saks for giving the city of Memphis,"A wonderful celebration of itself." Mr.Saks is more than qualified to be represented, and certainly worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. As to other details in the article, you should edit as you find appropriate, regards verification of his education and, among other items, his musicianship. As I am new to the forum (five days), I apologize if my corrections and actions have been misunderstood and out of keeping with protocol. I can only learn as I progress. Please consider allowing Mr.Saks the courtesy of this addition in this excellent forum. I hope that his honor will be upheld in any event.(Reneec 05:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

• Comment, I have posted a checkuser request to ensure that there is no sockpuppetry occuring in this afd vote. - Jersyko talk 19:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Despite many requests for verification, User:Reneec has refused to do so. As such, any assertions made in this article cannot be accepted at face value, leaving the voter no other choice than to conclude that the subject does not meet notability standards. User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In all fairness to Mr. Saks and User:Reneec, verification has been provided on the "Talk Memphis" page. As a result, the subject meets the notability standards.:::--70.248.228.85 02:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, Reneec has not provided verification on the Talk:Memphis page. She still has not given us any proof other than Mr. Saks's own webpage. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the anon is referring to a story in a Memphis paper, Commercial Appeal, posted in a few places by one of the several anons who have taken an interest in Mr. Saks's article. [1] The article does confirm that Mr. Saks wrote a song called "One Last Bridge", which was apparently made Memphis's official song of the year for 1990. However, that alone does not seem to be enough for Mr. Saks to pass WP:MUSIC. -- Vary | Talk 03:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Vary's nom and subsequent research Ruby 03:49, 11 February 2006

Obviously these viewers did not read the "Talk Memphis" page thoroughly. Legitimate articles have been located in the Commercial Appeal archives written by verifiable sources pertaining to Mr. Saks. It is not necessary for Reneec to provide verification on the "Talk Memphis" page as it has been sufficiently provided.--70.248.228.85 05:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, the "legitmate articles" referred to are the previously mentioned article about the 1990 song One Last Bridge and an article about Mr. Saks' stamp collection. - Jersyko talk 05:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The complete article on Mr. Saks's stamps collection makes reference to his two songs that were named Official Songs of memphis in 1990 and 1991 by the Memphis City Council. Again it had to be pointed out to these viewers where to look for verification--70.248.228.85 05:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're looking for two things here - verifiability of claims and proof of notability. Information must be verifiable to remain in a wikipedia article. The subject must be notable in order for the article to remain on Wikipedia. What remains of the article is more or less verified - although the source is not the move authoritative - but that does not make the subject notable. Please see WP:MUSIC for more information. -- Vary | Talk 05:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiability of claims and notability have been adequately provided. The subject of "Official Songs of Memphis" is notable. It has been verified that Mr. Saks has received not one but two of these distinctive awards by the Memphis City Council.--70.248.228.85 06:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen any verification for "In Memphis". Could you please provide a link that shows that portion of the article? Also, even with a citation for the second song, I'm not sure that having two songs made official songs of the year for Memphis meets the requirements in WP:MUSIC, especially considering how difficult it has proven to find references to this award. If it were so prestigious, surely there would be more mentions of it somewhere? -- Vary | Talk 06:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole purpose of Wikipedia is to assist people in finding elusive answers that aren't known. Without the questions for these answers, there would be no need for encylopedias or Wikipedia. Adequate links and verification have been provided.--70.248.228.85 15:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.