The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. It's very difficult to determine consensus (and what's best for the encyclopedia) when accusations are being flung around, and when politics and/or history between editors is the main topic of discussion. There doesn't appear to be any agreement on what the fate of this article should be. ‑Scottywong| spout _ 17:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Darka and Slavko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Notability, Verifiability, NPOV Oxy20 (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some Information and potential conflict of interest dosclosure: This page has been created by a beurocrat of Ukrainian Wiki with whom I am not on good terms and I believe he abuses his position to push his POV very heavily on Ukrainian Wiki and in view abuses his position. So this is as far as conflict of interest goes. As far as this article is concerned I believe it fails to meet Notability, Verifiability and NPOV principles. This is supposed to be a ukranian duo but actually there are 5 times more hits for them in English then in Ukrainian - so most users do not have to take my word for it and can check Notability themslevles. In my view they are not well known at all and this is confirmed by a small number of hits in Google. Below I provide a fuller description of the work done to reserach Notability and Verifiability.

Being a Ukarinian who listens to different styles of music a lot I have not heard of this "one of the most popular duos in Ukrainian diaspora and Ukraine." I have searched them on Google and "Дарка й Славко" returned 1330 results and "Darka and Slavko" just 7240. As a refernce I used anothe reasonably popular Ukrainian singer with a reasonably unusual name to avoid false positive counts in search results: "Ani Lorak" 2,540,000 results, "Ани Лорак" 8,710,000. So 1000 times more pages. Therefore I consider the claim as to popularity unforunded. I have looked at some of the results for this "duo" and it appears there is little good quality coverage of their activities a all - most pages just contain their name to attract search results with no actual information about them. Will be proposing this article for sletion as well.

Did some more work. Compared this "one of the most popular duos in Ukrainian diaspora and Ukraine" to just known (as opposed to well known) ukrainian singers. Choosing a duo that got 4th place in an X-factor like show in Ukraine in late 2009 early 2010. "Брати Борисенки" 71200 results, "Брати Борисенко" 53200 results, "Братья Борисенки" 56800 , "Братья Борисенко" 55800, "Borisenko Brothers" 31,400 and "Brothers Borisenko" 16,300 - so about 300,000 results across the two forms of writing their surnames in Russian and Ukrainian and two forms in English. They do not have their own En.Wiki page but are mentioned on the following page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrika_Zirok . So the Duo mentioned in the article produced about 30 times fewer hits on google then even fringe Ukrainian singers. I believe they fail to meet Notability criteria and the page is an attempt to promote them. I believe the page should be deleted. Oxy20 (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2012 April 10. Snotbot  t • c »  21:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Are the sources (ukrweekly.com, The Ukrainian Weekly, and the cyrillic one) reliable sources? Most are in a DjVu file format which I can't actually view. --Colapeninsula (talk) 21:52, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is the The Ukrainian Weekly, notable Ukrainian diaspora newspaper, there is even an article about this newspaper in Encyclopedia of Ukraine --Ilya (talk) 07:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would be worthwhile to explain what "Ukrainian diaspora" means here. It is a particular ethnic and political section of Ukrainian immigrants. So we are talking about Notability of the Paper amongst a particular section of Ukrainian immigrants in the USA (I am a Ukrainian immigrants who lived for 5 years in the USA (and more then 10 in the UK) and never heard of those papers as even though I was a Ukrainian immigrant I do not belong to that particular ethnic-political section). Also it is worthwhile to note that Ilya's other involvement in this dicussion was to correct spelling misstakes of the article creator Yakudza. I am not saying there is strong evidence of meetpuppetry here - but if I did use bureucrat Yakudza's standard of proof I would present meetpuppetry as something obvious. Oxy20 (talk) 23:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• If you don't know know something - just get to know it, very ridiculous to shout about your egoistic ignorancy all over this page. --Ilya (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • First link - is actually in English and I do not know what it has to do with this Duo but then as it is in English you can open it as well and check. Subsequent three I can not open either but I presume it is similar to the last link which opens and is in English as well. This leaves penultimate link http://www.ivasyuk.org.ua/names.php?lang=uk&id=duet_darka_slavko. This is a memorial page of the Notable Ukrainian Composer who wrote arguably the most notable song in Ukraine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chervona_Ruta_%28song%29 . On that page there is information about some Ukrainian groups including the article - exactly the same article as in wikipedia just in Ukrainian. I do not know who created that memorial page and do not think that a mention there establishes Notability. Oxy20 (talk) 22:03, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The contents that is in the three non-working links and the last link can be accesses from http://www.ukrweekly.com/ . I have not heard of that paper it appears local paper of "Ukrainian Diaspora" in the US. The duo are mentioned quite a few times in that publications with other performers in relation to various local "carbaret nights". So looks like they are of some very local significance. The paper is in English so if someone is interested can do checks - it is all in English. To me it appears they are no more notable then bands covered in my local paper that performed in local gigs / bar nights. As per hit count described above it appears most of the coverage of them is actually in English so all interested parties can actually carry out checks.Oxy20 (talk) 22:26, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

      Is this book a reliable (and independent) source: Ukrainian Music Outside of Ukraine? --178.93.178.134 (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

      • It is not. This is a dodgy publisher that just prints Wikipedia article and charges for such books! It actually says it in the description but not in so plain language. So basically all it means that a Wikipedia article was available at the time they were trolling for articles to publish. This publisher has bad reviews including one Truly Notable Author who is angry with them http://forums.theplenty.net/showthread.php?tid=373‏ . Oxy20 (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Leaving aside the Ukrainian politics, the article doesn't assert the subject's notability and they appear to fail on both the GNG and WP:MUSIC. ✤ Fosse 8 ✤ ^talk 16:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or Userfy The article has been improved, so maybe it should be kept. If it is not kept it should be userfied, as I believe that there is evidence of clear notability, but as they were a late-80s and 1990s musical act not everything is easily accessible on the internet. I think the article has been significantly improved in response to the deletion proposal. I can see that further improvement is practical. In essence the current article is "start" class. There is no benefit in deleting it. The article in its current form does not have much evidence of notability. However, the case for them being non-notable seems to rest on their notability is not recent, and so evidence for it is not so easy to find on the internet. Paper sources may contain good evidence of their notability. If the article were userfied, then the creator would have more time to develop the article and bring it back to the main encyclopaedia-space at a later date.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:54, 12 April 2012 (UTC) modified--Toddy1 (talk) 07:41, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The creator is a bureaucrat on Ukrainian Wiki he had plenty of time to substantiate it as he created it more than 6 years ago and he is surely fully aware of Notability and other Wikipedia requirements. Ukrainian language version has even fewer links - but with his position it is not under threat in Ukrainian Wiki. http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B9_%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%BE Oxy20 (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also this one appears to be related - also will be recommending for deletion - no Notability at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slau Oxy20 (talk) 22:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment User Oxy20 was blocked by me in Ukrainian Wikipedia for disruptive editing. Nomination for deletion is Harassment of my contribution. The nomination is absurd, Darka and Slavko, Kvitka Cisyk really the most popular performers of Ukrainian Diaspora USA and Canada, the mid-1980s. The duo was awarded "Best International Band" at the largest Ukrainian music festival. You can verify this by references to publications of most influential periodicals of the Ukrainian diaspora U.S. The Ukrainian Weekly: [1] [2] and Svoboda [3]. Duet is notability because has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. --Yakudza (talk) 08:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That coverage appears to relate to them having performances in relatively small settings (rather then any major concerts - even if we strech the meaning of word major) during Ukrainian immigrant association meetings and it appears they are in the articles covered together with other musicians who also perform there. The paper appears to be not well known generally - though might be popular in that particulr community of Ukrainian immigrants in the US. Do you have any evidence of coverage in mainstream media in the Ukraine or US or any other country to support the Notability other then notability restricted to a particular niche minority community in a particular location? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.149.1.230 (talk • contribs)

• I disclosed my potential conflict of interest in the first paragraph. As he raised it as well I will give some further insight. I raised NPOV on an article that essentially constituted a trial by Ukrainian Wikipedia. That involved a graphical decription of criminal act with the language actually saying who did it in graphical detail (rather then what was done and who are the suspects). However coverage of that in media was contradictory as to certain allegations and in any case there was no court verdict yet. I explained my reason for NPOV on the talk page. Yakudza deleted my NPOV tag with no explanation. Not knowing that he is a bureucrat in Ukrainian Wiki I restored NPOV tag. This resulted in a ban. "Proven until found guilty by a court of Law" is about basic human decency, but it is not a view of Ukrainian Wiki which reports guilt or innocence before the court verdict.Oxy20 (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Why are you bringing Kvitka Cisyk into this? This is not about Kvitka Cisyk. The page proposed fo deletion is Darka and Slavko. I noticed that you added a few more refernces and provided comments on the updated references below Oxy20 (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Satisfies WP:MUSIC 1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilya (talk • contribs)

Note as per standard the following does not count: "all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising" and "Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings". Once such coverage is removed not much if at all is left. In any case all coverage in a relatively small community sources - a particular ethnic-political fraction of Ukrainian immigrans living in North America. Oxy20 (talk) 21:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Seems to be a OK if still a bit of a stub article. Darka and Slavko gets two and a half million Google hits. I can't see how Wikipedia would gain by the article's removal. You have to start somewhere with articles. Mike Young (talk) 12:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No it does not have 2.5 million hits on google. If you search for the band "Darka and Slavko" the number of hit is just 7,210. You must have searched Darka and Slavko without quote marks - and Darka and Slavko being reasonably common Ukrainian names must have had lots of false hits 81.107.37.94 (talk) 15:03, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment on Update to the articleThere have been some updates and Yakudza added some references. I still believe this band does not satisfy Notability requirements. Interestingly enough he did not bother to update the page in Ukrainian Wiki where he is a bureaucrat . There are even fewer references and the outrageous claim "one of the most popular duos in Ukrainian diaspora and Ukraine" is still there. Anyway I maintain that not only they are NOT "one of the most popular duos in Ukrainian diaspora and Ukraine" – they actually fail to satisfy Notability requirements. I reject the suggestions that the added references establish Notability and my points are as follows:

• All the references are actually Ukrainian “Diaspora” publications in North America. More to it those publications are not even aimed at all Ukrainian immigrants that live in the US. They are aimed just at a particular ethnic and political fraction of Ukrainians in the US. This is especially evident as those references that appear to be in Ukrainian are actually in a dialect of Ukrainian – and in Ukraine itself dialects even in speech yet alone in writing are frowned upon. If we admit Notability based on this kind of media – we might just as well then write articles on whatever , say, English ex pats from Yorkshire that currently live, say, in Australia are writing about such as the band that are playing in their clubhouse.
• The coverage looks like either trivial (covering which hotel / bar etc the band will be playing amongst other performers) or advertising. Of the coverage the link number 3 in references is in my view the most significant as quite a lot of space is dedicated to them. However it is a report of Debut. So no success as such is reported. ... and it ends with where to send a cheque for $11.50 to get the tape.... So basically advertising!
• If the bureaucrat of Ukrainian Wiki Yakudza can actually provide details of multiple non-trivial coverage in reputable media of national significance in any country (Ukraine, US, etc) I would be willing to change my mind... But as it is – they just not Notable.
• This article also fails verifiability. It is a translation of an article on a memorial site for a notable composer. There is no evidence who the owner of that site might be. The article on that site and the article in the Wikipedia prior to the recent edit contained plainly false claim that the band is "one of the most popular duos in Ukrainian diaspora and Ukraine" so in my view it deserves no credibility. Oxy20 (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment on Verifiability Much of the article is based on single source that is not reliable as discussed on the Talk Pages. It appears that any other coverage of this Duo is so trivial that it does not look possibe to substabtiate much of the article. As it reports on biographies of people who are still alive (and includes such details as marriages and remarriages) much of it has to be deleted due to total failure of verifiability requirements Oxy20 (talk) 21:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Notability not established, also low Google count and just 15 facebook likes 139.149.1.230 (talk) 14:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.