The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Trending towards keep on the basis of the references to extensive third party coverage now linked to in the article.  Sandstein  19:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clevo x7200

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Clevo x7200 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Contested PROD, no rationale for removal of PROD nomination. Non-notable laptop, mostly promotional, no credible referenced assertion of notability. Wikipedia is not a Web host for customer support. Wtshymanski (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: PROD deletion is x7200&action=historysubmit&diff=424695698&oldid=424695039 here.
I respectfully disagree about innovation. Perhaps, I'm not making a strong enough case, and I'll update the article later today. How many laptops exist on the globe that allow the end user to use desktop CPUs inside a laptop? How many laptops are there which allow multiple graphics cards inside a laptop or up to four hard disk bays? What laptop vendor allows you to overclock the CPU and Video cards of their systems? Finally, what laptop manufacturer has designed a system in which the video cards, CPUs, and disk drives are end-user upgradeable? The Clevo based system is unique in this regard, and that is what I believe is notable about the system. - Jclausius (talk) 12:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know a bit about desktops but little about laptops. I will take your word for it. So it is a laptop with desktop features and I also take your word for the fact that it's new. But it is not notable. As I said, review sites-only does not usually provide notability. Because almost every big review site will review most if not every new laptop/desktop release by the big companies. Not all are notable. You saying that it is notable because it is amazing and stuff counts as WP:OR. You need some source other than review sites to say that it is notable. For example, say, when i7 was released, it was reported by many non-review-RS. e.g. The Guardian[1]. Find a similar RS and I (and likely the other Wikipedians) will change my mind. Zlqq2144(Talk Contribs) 12:52, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look later today when I have some free time. I don't think it will necessarily be a review, but rather an article from a tech site, which should meet the RS criterion. For the most part, laptops have traditionally soldered graphics cards or CPUs directly on the laptop's system board. Clevo's innovation was to use normal desktop components which can be exchanged/upgraded without changing the system board. While the x7200 is not Clevo's first model to do this, it is the latest. Once I find the links, I'll update the page, and you can let me know what you think. Thx. 72.251.164.101 (talk) 14:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added some links / references to the general discussion of the page. I didn't necessarily want to add it to the page as I'm a tad uncertain if it is up to snuff as RSs. If anyone wants to give them a look over, let me know if you feel this is on track, or still not viable RS citations. Thanks. - Jclausius (talk) 17:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that, although it might contain some RS regarding the 'desktop components in laptop' (need expert to check the websites), there are no RS to provide notability for this specific product. Linking 'desktop components in laptop is innovative' and 'this product does it' and say that it's notable is, I think, original research. Zlqq2144(Talk Contribs) 22:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I did find references to "Sager laptops", but not necessarily to this model. There is so much crust around generic search results, that it was difficult to come up with anything in an hours time. I'm going to think about this, and refine some of my search queries to see if I can find anything related to Sager's innovation and continuing that within the x7200. Sounds like that is the RS you are looking for. Jclausius (talk) 22:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously sources talking about Sager laptops does not qualify. Also note that it has to have a significant role in whatever source you find (as opposed to just mentioning it briefly). Good luck. Zlqq2144(Talk Contribs) 23:08, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Use of pluggable standard desktop-format expansion cards in a laptop goes back over twenty years, right back to ISA bus. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the pluggable cards for the Clevo, but rather upgradeable CPU/GPU. These used to be all part of one laptop system board. The advent of socket for CPU/GPU is what is new. Still haven't looked up a RS on this. Jclausius (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the Web site which makes fewer of these claims; looking at the picture, if you can fit two standard desktop video boards, a standard desktop CPU board, and four hard drives into that box, a better model name would have been Tardis. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But for a laptop a police box is not the most comfortable thing to lug around -> although size is one of the knocks against the x7200. Jclausius (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not new. Several different series of Dell laptops (to my personal knowledge) have had sockets for the CPU and/or the GPU, and I doubt they were the only other ones. This beast is just the first one in your experience. And even if it was the first, that would just make it the first to have used one particular combination of selections out of the various options that face any designer. That in iteself doesn't make it notable, as there are a very large number of such combinations. Jeh (talk) 02:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do not use terms like "absurdly incorrect opinion." The process only works properly if everyone is civil. Calmly discuss the facts - what sources you have found and how well they meet the policy at WP:RS. Don't make personal comments about other editors. This is a search for evidence of notability, not a chatroom flamewar. Guy Macon (talk) 06:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please. Just about every laptop model or model series gets reviews, even the vast majority of the "me too" types... if only because, if a given magazine or site doesn't put up a review after receiving a review sample, they'll eventually stop getting review samples, and no one wants that! If you follow that criterion then every one of them becomes "notable" - which is plainly absurd. The standard for notability in such a prolific product category must be higher than that. For example, did the model set a prcedent that was followed by many others? (As opposed to being an idea in which no one else saw merit?) Otherwise we're just echoing manufacturers' catalogs. Is there some reason this model deserves an article of its own, and not just a section on the manufacturer's page? This page could remain as a redirect thereto. Jeh (talk) 08:35, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
DGG, I think you are on the border of WP:PA there.
I do not frequently edit PC/Laptop related articles on Wikipedia, so please, give examples of articles where the product only appears in reviews. Reviews (from reliable sources) are great for providing detailed specs and I am fine with that. The problem is, as Jeh said above, that reviewers from specialised magazines/website review tens if not hundreds of new products everyday, ranging from specific models, to specific components. Not all of them deserve individual articles. This is not a catalog. Per WP:NOTCATALOG.
I will use my own graphics card 9600gt as an example. There are over 7 million results on google, including reviews from almost every reliable source and many more from unreliable sources. Look on Wikipedia, it is under the article GeForce 9 Series. No individual article. NP7280 (page moved to Clevo x7200), on the other hand, returns with under 200,000 results. Sure, google results does not mean everything, but I think you will agree that 9600gt (and many other PC/laptop models and components) are more notable than NP7280 (page moved to Clevo x7200). They do not have their individual articles.
Therefore, delete this article and merge it with Clevo or something. Zlqq2144(Talk Contribs) 09:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- But what you searched on is important. Being a rebranded, vanilla laptop searching for "x7200" (368K results on Google) doesn't cover the other possible data hits from other vendor models (NP7280 (page moved to Clevo x7200) yields 183K results, Malibal NINE (less x7200) 13.6K, etc.). Although, those won't total 7M unique hits. Being a first time editor, I thought I would place this on a "Clevo" page, but there is no article for Clevo in Wikipedia. So, I chose the next familiar (at least to me) article... Sager. It was because of this I created the article NP7280 (page moved to Clevo x7200), which I now think is misnamed as it focuses more on the x7200 and little on NP7280 (page moved to Clevo x7200).
- Another issue regrading embedding the data is duplicated text. Being a rebranded laptop, including the same data points in every Wikipedia vendor's article would create a maintenance issue trying to keep all these in sync. To me there is enough data / notoriety that a stand-alone article is warranted. In this way, the article can be referenced in from different vendors for those interested in the laptop itself, but not necessarily Clevo. Jclausius (talk) 14:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Clevo seems to be notable enough (6 million on google with many RS), consider creating that article instead? Maintenance should not be an issue since the laptop is unlikely to change. Also, there is no need to list out every single specification as it is doing now, IMO, just describe it in a few words/sentences in a main article (e.g. Sager and Clevo) and link it to a reliable review site which has all the specs. Zlqq2144(Talk Contribs) 14:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So per WP:NOTPAPER, yes, every laptop that complies with these requirements can have its own article with the only precondition that someone is willing to write it (and that there's no consensus to merge its contents into a more encompassing article for a class of similar devices).
My suggestion is to trim to the minimum the technical tables (drivers, BIOS, utilities...) and create a Reception section with the most juicy bits of the professional reviews; taking both actions would achieve an encyclopedic article. Diego Moya (talk) 13:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The data in there is valuable information for whitebox system builders or those just now learning about the x7200. Is there perhaps some wiki markup to repackage this information (at least the more important parts) in a way that is less cumbersome? Jclausius (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a guide, so that's not enough reason to keep the lists. That said, I think that information could stay if compiled to less cumbersome tables. Try to remove the Date and Link columns, turn the links into references with <ref></ref> tags and place them outside the table, and group by Component type and Vendor. Diego Moya (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'm currently trying to compile this argument into my first essay, since I think the run-of-the-mill argument for deletion is used more times that it should in AfDs. Does anybody around here have experience in writing essays? I'd appreciate feedback at my talk page. Diego Moya (talk) 15:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very good idea for an essay. Sometime in the next few days (busy with work right now) I will review it in detail and possibly make suggestions. Guy Macon (talk) 16:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that it meets WP:GNG, but I would also note that it isn't just more powerful than the norm, but appears to actually have multiple features not available on any other laptop - which is why reliable sources have noted it. Guy Macon (talk) 14:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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