The result was delete, redirected to Tax protester (United States). Nandesuka (talk) 01:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a hoax, or more specifically, tax protester nonsense, incorrectly (and with breathtaking stupidity) mis-stating the law to contend that someone may be either a citizen of the U.S. or a citizen of an individual state therein, but not both. In other words, the article argues that people who are citizens of Texas or Indiana or Wyoming are therefore not U.S. Citizens. If the erroneous contentions are removed, then this article would be nothing more than a duplicate of material in United States nationality law, so it should be deleted outright as a hoax bd2412 T 07:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
*Keep I think it's a valid topic about a legal argument that has been raised, and which federal courts have had to actually address before rejecting it. I'm hoping that some of the participants here will learn that (a) not to accuse someone of a hoax unless your attempts at verification come back empty; (b) not to "take someone's addition off" or to otherwise edit out someone else's comments (a definite no-no); (c) emphasizing your point in BIG BOLD LETTERS may attract attention to you, but not to your argument; and finally (d) don't let personality conflicts overshadow where you stand on the topic being discussed. Mandsford (talk) 13:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC) [reply]
bd24112,
I have taken your addition off. You obviously did not read this article. If you did you would have seen that this article is based on citizenship. There are three citizenships in this country: citizenship of the United States, citizenship of the several states, and citizenship of a state. Taxes has nothing to do with this article. Your action was, therefore, unjustified.
I will report you to Wikipedia if you do this again. I suggest you read this article. It has references to Supreme Court cases, documents of our forefathers and other sources, including acts of Congress. --Gettingitdone (talk) 08:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
I am concluding that what is said by the Supreme Court of the United States on the topic of a citizen of the several states would matter to you.
On this point there is the following from the Supreme Court of the United States:
“The intention of section 2, Article IV (of the Constitution), was to confer on the citizens of the several States a general citizenship.” Cole v. Cunningham: 133 U.S. 107, 113-114 (1890).
This case was decided after the Slaughterhouse Cases (1890) to (1873).
In addition, the following was removed by BD2412, from the top of my article:
“Before its adoption the Constitution of the United States did not in terms prescribe who should be citizens of the United States or of the several States, yet there were necessarily such citizens without such provision.” Minor v. Happersett: 88 U.S. 162, 165 (1874).
This is another Supreme Court case decided after the Slaughterhouse Cases."
There is also the following from the Slaughterhouse Cases:
"The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is, that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state is clearly recognized and established...
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.
We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this Amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section, which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of those of citizens of the several states. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs, rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause (that is Section 2, Clause 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment) are the same.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 73-74.
And, from another Supreme Court case decided after the Slaughterhouse Cases. there is:
“In the Slaughterhouse Cases, 16 Wall. 36, 21 L. ed. 394, the subject of the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States, as distinguished from those of a particular state, was treated by Mr. Justice Miller in delivering the opinion of the court. He stated that the argument in favor of the plaintiffs, claiming that the ordinance of the city of New Orleans was invalid, rested wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment are the same as to citizens of the United States and citizens of the several states. This he showed to be not well founded; that there was a citizenship of the United States and a citizenship of the states, which were distinct from each other, depending upon different characteristics and circumstances in the individual." Maxwell v. Dow: 176 U.S. 581, 587-588 (1900).
Citizen of the several States is therefore a legal term.
In addition, this article has nothing to do with taxes. It deals with citizenship. Sources are referred to including but not limited to: Supreme Court cases, documents of our forefatheres, and acts of Congress. --Gettingitdone (talk) 04:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
I went through BD2412 reference to Wikipedia's Talk:Tax protester/Request for comment, and found nothing in it, by way of "theory" of citizenship, to the issue of federal income taxes. The closest thing is that the Fourteenth Amendment was not properly ratified, which is NOT present in my article. --Gettingitdone (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
Above I quoted and cited cases from the Supreme Court relating to a citizen of the several States. Here are some from the Supreme Court which relate to a citizen of a state.
“. . . The act was considered in Johnson v. United States, 160 U.S. 546, 16 Sup. Ct. 377, and we there held that a person who was not a citizen of the United States at the time of an alleged appropriation of his property by a tribe of Indians was not entitled to maintain an action in the court of claims under the act in question. There was not in that case, however, any assertion that the claimant was a citizen of a state, as distinguished from a citizen of the United States.” United States v. Northwestern Express, Stage & Transportation Company: 164 U.S. 686, 688 (1897).
The Supreme Court makes a distinction between a citizen of a state and a citizen of the United States.
In addition, there is the following:
“. . . In the Constitution and laws of the United States the word 'citizen' is generally, if not always, used in a political sense, to designate one who has the rights and privileges of a citizen of a State OR of the United States.” Baldwin v. Franks: 120 U.S. 678, 690 (1887); reaffirmed, Collins v. Hardyman: 341 U.S. 651, 658-659 (1950); Griffen v. Breckenridge: 403 U.S. 88, 93-95 (1971).
Also:
“. . . There is no inherent right in a citizen to thus sell intoxicating liquors by retail; it is not a privilege of a citizen of a State OR of a citizen of the United States.” Crowley v. Christensen: 137 U.S. 86, 91 (1890).
And:
". . . Unquestionably, in the general and common acceptation, a citizen of the state is considered as synonymous with citizen of the United States, and the one is therefore treated as expressive of the other. This flows from the fact that the one is normally and usually the other, and where such is not the case it is purely exceptional and uncommon." United States v. Northwestern Express, Stage & Transportation Company: 164 U.S. 686, 688 (1877).
From the Slaughterhouse Cases there is the following:
“The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is, that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state is clearly recognized and established. . . .
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual." Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 73 (1873).
Therefore, citizen of a state is a legal term.
And, as stated at my first entry there are three citizenship in this country; citizenship of the United States, citizenship of the several States, and citizenship of a state. To this I will add that privileges and immunities of a citizen of the United States are in the 14th Amendment, privileges and immunities of a citizen of the several States are located at Article IV, Section 2 and privileges and immunities of a citizen of a state are to be found in the constitution and laws of an individual State. --Gettingitdone (talk) 05:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
Now that I have given legal authority, I will now address other issues. My article does not in WP:POV violate local bias. Legal authority is quoted and cited (and link to in most cases). In addition, the views expressed are not my but those of the legal sources. I have provided additional legal sources to further support those views in my article. As I have stated before this article is on citizenship and NOT taxes. Assuming the obvious is obviously not being violated since nothing is assumed in my article. Pseudonyms has not been violated. Other points really doesn't apply. English language also really doesn't apply. Under Basic writing I do not see a problem especially regarding being "unbalanced" since althought the article treats citizenship of the several states, citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state are also included. And Other areas really doesn't apply. So I am left with the conclusion that WP:POV in not being violated, in whole, at all. --Gettingitdone (talk) 06:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
I will now address the issue of an hoax WP.HOAX. "A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real." Such is not the case here. Legal authority has been provided which provide the basis for my article. Note: court cases, acts of Congress, and other sources like the Congressional Globe are considered published documents. An article was also referred to: Dan Goodman, "Slaughterhouse Cases, Two Citizens"; December 1, 2007; The New Media Journal.us at http://therant.us/guest/d_goodman/12012007.htm . A published piece. There is no trickery.
Just because one does not know of something does not make it non-existent. I at first, was unaware of what is now in this article. However, I kept my mind open and pursued it further and was surprised at what I found. In a way it is like finding out the Earth is round instead of being flat. You took the journey to the edge of the Earth to see if it is really flat, knowing that it might not be and found out that it was indeed round and not flat. --Gettingitdone (talk) 09:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
In WP.CB it reads "It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it." However, I will make a comment. The terms that used in my work are not complete bollocks. Legal authority is provided in the article and has been provided in this Talk. Turning the table around, if I was to say what is a citizen of the United States, Amendment 14 of the Constitution of the United States would be cited, and if pressed further reference to the Slaughterhouse Cases, would have been made. Both are legal documents, both are published, and both have the terms citizen of the United States or United States citizen in them. --Gettingitdone (talk) 10:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
WP.OR relates to unpublished original research or original thought. My work is the expression of the legal sources included. As stated in reference to WP.HOAX "Legal authority has been provided which provide the basis for my article. Note: court cases, acts of Congress, and other sources like the Congressional Globe are considered published documents. An article was also referred to: Dan Goodman, "Slaughterhouse Cases, Two Citizens"; December 1, 2007; The New Media Journal.us at http://therant.us/guest/d_goodman/12012007.htm . A published piece." Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability are therefore satisfied. This piece has been written in objective manner. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is therefore also satisfied. --Gettingitdone (talk) 10:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Torchwood Who? (talk) 06:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I finished reading United States nationality law. This article deals, in essence, with an act of Congress. Granted, it relates to the Constitution of the United States, but it does not deal with the provisions of the Constitution of the United States as my article does. I think the contributor would agree with me that his or his piece is substantially different from my, even though they both deal with citizenship.
You would be putting an apple with an orange. Even though they are a fruit, they are not the same. Similiar yes, the same no. --Gettingitdone (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Torchwood Who? (talk) 07:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC),
You have to read Footnote 1 and not the Slaughterhouse Case reference. BD2412 remove the first line which was:
"Before its adoption the Constitution of the United States did not in terms prescribe who should be citizens of the United States or of the several States, yet there were necessarily such citizens without such provision." [1] (1)
Footnotes:
(1) "Before . . .
Reference:[1] ^ Minor v. Happersett,88 U.S. 162, 165 (1874).
I am still reading United States nationality law. --Gettingitdone (talk) 07:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The following Supreme Court case should answer your concern:
"There can be no doubt that Balk, as a citizen of the state of North Carolina, had the right to sue Harris in Maryland to recover the debt which Harris owed him. Being a citizen of North Carolina, he was entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens OF the several states, one of which is the right to institute actions in the courts of another state." Harris v. Balk: 198 U.S. 215, 223 (1905).
Note at Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States it states:
"The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens IN the several states."
Words in law are chosen carefully. Citizens OF the several states is not the same as citizens IN the several states. Citizen of the several states refers to a citizen of the several states and not a citizen of a state. This is shown in Cole v. Cunningham:
“The intention of section 2, Article IV (of the Constitution), was to confer on the citizens OF the several States a general citizenship.” Cole v. Cunningham: 133 U.S. 107, 113-114 (1890).
--Gettingitdone (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I still see no evidence whatsoever as to your interpretation of the case law in question. Please link to party-neutral evidence that clearly explains this. If you can provide third party evidence of your interpretation, maybe a United States Government booklet on citizenship... maybe direct quotes from academically used text books... maybe a U.S. government website that clearly explains the three types of citizenship, these are all things that can used to verify your claims, but simply interpreting these court cases constitutes WP:OR and perpetuates a WP:HOAX or worse WP:CB. If there is a U.S. government sanctioned third type of citizenship I feel that the article needs to clearly define all three types of citizenship and the differences thereof based upon approved academic and official government sources, otherwise it is just a "theory" and a controversial one at that which should in no way be presented as factual information.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 07:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]"Words in law are chosen carefully. Citizens OF the several states is not the same as citizens IN the several states. Citizen of the several states refers to a citizen of the several states and not a citizen of a state."
To Torchwood Who? (talk) 07:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Here is a case:
--Gettingitdone (talk) 08:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]"The expression, Citizen of a State, is carefully omitted here. In Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1, of the Constitution of the United States, it had been already provided that 'the Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.' The rights of Citizens of the States (under Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1) and of citizens of the United States (under The Fourteenth Amendment) are each guarded by these different provisions. That these rights are separate and distinct, was held in the Slaughterhouse Cases, recently decided by the Supreme court. The rights of Citizens of the State, as such, are not under consideration in the Fourteenth Amendment. They stand as they did before the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, and are fully guaranteed by other provisions." United States v. Anthony: 24 Fed. Cas. 829, 830 (Case No. 14,459) (1873).
This clearly states there are two types of citizenship, not three. Ignoring the case law as citations, which I feel we can because no one is disputing the results of those cases or the looking at the cases from an academic standpoint in this article... we are in essence debating the language... I will move on to Jacob Howard, Congressional Globe...
"It has in view some results beneficial to the citizens of the several States, or it would not be found there; yet I am not aware that the Supreme Court have ever undertaken to define either the nature or extent of the privileges and immunities thus guarantied. . ."
This illustrates that the author does not understand there to be three classes of citizenship, and if so he doesn't know what the differences are. This source is from 1866 in in context refers to interstate commerce right. In the citation for Alexander Hamilton's Federalist Papers the direct quote referencing Citizens of the Several States is thus,
"It may be esteemed the basis of the union, that "the citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several states."
I can see no reference suggesting that the use of the phrase is distinct from citizens of the united states or citizen of a state in plural. The Joseph Story citation opens with the statement
"The first is, "The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states."
I am again at a loss for how this is interpreted as a unique and distinct classification of citizenship. In the final citation in question the document refers to the differences between political and civil rights of freed black and is in substance
"that the word white be stricken out. Chancellor Kent supported this motion and among other reasons suggested that the exclusion of negroes might be opposed to the constitution of the United States, which provided that 'the citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several states."
I again, there is no single statement put forward in this citation that defines three unique classes of citizenship. I therefore conclude that this article desperately needs better citations to bolster the argument that there is a third classification of citizenship and not merely a debate over semantics.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Torchwoodwho|talk 08:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
You have made an ettor. You have concluded that a citizen of the states is the same as a citizen of a state from the case U.S. v. Anthony. This is incorrect as shown in my artice at "Citizenship of the several States after the Fourteenth Amendment" There it is shown that the term is the same as a citizen of the several states in the Slaughterhouse Casse. To wit:
"Citizenship of the several States after the Fourteenth Amendment"
After the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, The Supreme Court of the United States decided in the Slaughterhouse Cases [1] that because of the Fourteenth Amendment there were now two separate and distinct citizens under the Constitution of the United States (and not the Fourteenth Amendment): a citizen of the United States and a citizen of the several States;
To wit:
"We do not conceal from ourselves the great responsibility which this duty devolves upon us. No questions so far reaching and pervading in their consequences, so profoundly interesting to the people of this country, and so important in their bearing upon the relations of the United States and of the several States to each other, and to the citizens of the states and of the United States, have been before this court during the official life of any of its present members. We have given every opportunity for a full hearing at the bar; we have discussed it freely and compared views among ourselves; we have taken ample time for careful deliberation, and we now propose to announce the judgments which we have formed in the construction of those articles, so far as we have found them necessary to the decision of the cases before us, and beyond that we have neither the inclination nor the right to go.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, at 67.
And:
"The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is, that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state is clearly recognized and established...
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.
We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this Amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section, which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of those of citizens of the several states. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs, rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause (that is Section 2, Clause 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment) are the same.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 73-74.
Also:
"Fortunately we are not without judicial construction of this clause of the Constitution (that is, Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1). The first and the leading case on the subject is that of Corfield v. Coryell [2], decided by Mr. Justice Washington in the circuit court for the district of Pennsylvania in 1823. 4 Wash C. C. 371.
'The inquiry,' he says, 'is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States? . . .
This definition of the privileges and immunities of citizens of the states is adopted in the main by this court in the recent case of Ward v. Maryland. . . .
Having shown that the privileges and immunities relied on in the argument are those which belong to citizens of the states as such, and that they are left to the state governments for security and protection, and not by this article placed under the special care of the Federal government, we may hold ourselves excused from defining the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States which no state can abridge, until some case involving those privileges may make it necessary to do so.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 75-76, 78-79.
See also *Dan Goodman, "Slaughterhouse Cases, Two Citizens"; December 1, 2007; The New Media Journal.us at http://therant.us/guest/d_goodman/12012007.htm a published piece.
--Gettingitdone (talk) 08:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To all,
In the Slaughterhouse Cases, the Supreme Court dealt with two clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment; Section 1, Clause 1 and Section 1, Clause 2. Citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state were treated in Section 1, Clause 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Citizenship of the United States and citizenship of the several States were covered in Section 1, Clause 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment:
“. . . [T]o establish a clear and comprehensive definition of citizenship which should declare what should constitute citizenship of the United States and also citizenship of a state, the 1st clause of the 1st section was framed. . . .
The first observation we have to make on this clause is that it puts at rest both the questions which we stated to have been the subject of differences of opinion. It declares that persons may be citizens of the United States without regard to their citizenship of a particular state . . .
The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is, that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state is clearly recognized and established. . . .
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.
We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this Amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section (2nd clause of the 1st section), which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of those of citizens of the several states. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs, rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause are the same.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 72-74.
Moreover, it was decided that citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state were now separate and distinct. Privileges and immunities of a citizen of a state were to be found in the constitution and laws of the individual state. Privileges and immunities of a citizen of the United States were to be located at the Fourteenth Amendment.
Also, the Slaughterhouse court concluded that there were now two separate and distinct citizens under the Constitution of the United States (and not the Fourteenth Amendment); a citizen of the United States and a citizen of the several States:
To wit:
“We do not conceal from ourselves the great responsibility which this duty devolves upon us. No questions so far reaching and pervading in their consequences, so profoundly interesting to the people of this country, and so important in their bearing upon the relations of the United States and of the several States to each other, and to the citizens of the states and of the United States, have been before this court during the official life of any of its present members. We have given every opportunity for a full hearing at the bar; we have discussed it freely and compared views among ourselves; we have taken ample time for careful deliberation, and we now propose to announce the judgments which we have formed in the construction of those articles, so far as we have found them necessary to the decision of the cases before us, and beyond that we have neither the inclination nor the right to go.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, at 67 (1873).
And:
“The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is, that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state is clearly recognized and established. . . .
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.
We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this Amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section (2nd clause of the 1st section), which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of those of citizens of the several states. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs, rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause are the same.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 73-74.
Also:
--Gettingitdone (talk) 08:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]“Fortunately we are not without judicial construction of this clause of the Constitution (that is, Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1). The first and the leading case on the subject is that of Corfield v. Coryell, decided by Mr. Justice Washington in the circuit court for the district of Pennsylvania in 1823. 4 Wash C. C. 371.
'The inquiry,' he says, 'is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States?. . .
This definition of the privileges and immunities of citizens of the states is adopted in the main by this court in the recent case of Ward v. Maryland. . . .
Having shown that the privileges and immunities relied on in the argument are those which belong to citizens of the states as such, and that they are left to the state governments for security and protection, and not by this article placed under the special care of the Federal government, we may hold ourselves excused from defining the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States which no state can abridge, until some case involving those privileges may make it necessary to do so.” Slaughterhouse Cases: 83 U.S. 36, 75-76, 78-79.
It is to be observed that the terms “citizens of the states” and “citizens of the several states” are used interchangeably by the Slaughterhouse court. And they are employed in contradistinction to the term “citizens of the United States.”
Dear Gettingitdone: If I'm reading you correctly, you keep saying that "citizen of the United States" and "citizen of the several states" and "citizen of a state" are three separate things.
Here is what "Dan Goodman" says in the material you linked:
Sorry, but in none of the court cases you cited, and in none of the court cases Dan Goodman cited, did any court ever rule that a person cannot be BOTH a citizen of the United States AND a citizen of "the several States" at the same time. Similarly, in none of the court cases cited did any court ever rule that one cannot be BOTH a citizen of the United States and a citizen of "a state" at the same time. No case. Not once. Not ever.
Think of it this way: The mere fact that "being a father" is not the same as "being a brother" does not mean that I cannot be both at the same time. Yes, they're two different things, with different attributes and responsibilities and rights -- but I can be both a father and a brother at the same time. The mere fact that being a "citizen of the United States" is not the same as being a "citizen of Texas" does not mean that I cannot be both at the same time.
It appears that Goodman is essentially arguing that because "being a citizen of Texas" AND "being a citizen of the United States" are two different things (which of course they are), a person therefore cannot be both at the same time. The argument is completely illogical. And more to the point, none of the courts in the court cases Goodman cited ever made any such ruling.
And as far as the phrase "citizens of the several states," as somehow being a "third class" of citizenship, none of the court cases cited ever contained any ruling that there is a third class of citizenship called "citizens of the several states." The term "citizens of the several states" essentially means, "citizens of the separate, or various, states." This is not rocket science.
There are only two classes of citizenship in the sense in which we are speaking here: state citizenship and national citizenship. Under the Constitution (which of course includes the Fourteenth Amendment), a "citizen of the United States" is automatically a "citizen of the state wherein he or she resides" at a given time. You cannot be a citizen of a state (e.g., Montana) and not also be a United States citizen at the same time. Nothing that Dan Goodman writes, and nothing that you write, will ever change that fundamental legal concept.
I am having a hard time finding any information on the linked web site about "Dan Goodman." What are his qualifications or credentials? Does he have any legal training? Can you find anyone with any legal expertise who has ever made the arguments Dan Goodman is making? I think we are also having a reliable source issue here.
In no federal court case whatsover has any court ever ruled that someone can be a citizen of "a state" and yet not, at the same time, be a "citizen of the United States". So, where is all this leading you? Famspear (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Post-script: Looking back, it appears that what you and Dan Goodman may be arguing is that there were three classes of citizenship before the 14th Amendment and only two afterward. You are at least correct that there are only two classes of citizenship after the Amendment (if that's what you're arguing). But the basic problem I have identified is: Goodman seems to be confused in his reading of the court cases. Goodman is incorrectly inferring that somehow the courts have ruled that you cannot be both a citizen of the United States AND a citizen of a state at the same time. Goodman is wrong. No court has ever ruled that way, and again the argument has no legal validity. It's nonsensical. Famspear (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Famspear (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote that "In no federal court case whatsover has any court ever ruled that someone can be a 'citizen of a state" and yet not, at the same time, be a 'citizen of the United States'.
In an earlier post on this Talk page, --Gettingitdone (talk) 05:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC), I provided legal authority on this point you brought up. I reproduce here:[reply]
The Supreme Court makes a distinction between a citizen of a state and a citizen of the United States.
(As an example), there is the following:
“. . . In the Constitution and laws of the United States the word 'citizen' is generally, if not always, used in a political sense, to designate one who has the rights and privileges of a citizen of a State OR of the United States.” Baldwin v. Franks: 120 U.S. 678, 690 (1887); reaffirmed, Collins v. Hardyman: 341 U.S. 651, 658-659 (1950); Griffen v. Breckenridge: 403 U.S. 88, 93-95 (1971).
Also:
“. . . There is no inherent right in a citizen to thus sell intoxicating liquors by retail; it is not a privilege of a citizen of a State OR of a citizen of the United States.” Crowley v. Christensen: 137 U.S. 86, 91 (1890).
And:
". . . Unquestionably, in the general and common acceptation, a citizen of the state is considered as synonymous with citizen of the United States, and the one is therefore treated as expressive of the other. This flows from the fact that the one is normally and usually the other, and where such is not the case it is purely exceptional and uncommon." United States v. Northwestern Express, Stage & Transportation Company: 164 U.S. 686, 688 (1877).
Postscript
I am in total agreement with you that a citizen of the United States can also be a citizen of a state. --Gettingitdone (talk) 05:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To bd2412 T 05:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
In my posting at,--Gettingitdone (talk) 05:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC). there was this Supreme Court case:[reply]
“. . . The act was considered in Johnson v. United States, 160 U.S. 546, 16 Sup. Ct. 377, and we there held that a person who was not a citizen of the United States at the time of an alleged appropriation of his property by a tribe of Indians was not entitled to maintain an action in the court of claims under the act in question. There was not in that case, however, any assertion that the claimant was a citizen of a state, as distinguished from a citizen of the United States.” United States v. Northwestern Express, Stage & Transportation Company: 164 U.S. 686, 688 (1897).
Here is another case (a state case):
"Under the Fourteenth Amendment all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the state in which they reside, but we find nothing which requires that a citizen of a state must be a citizen of the United States." Crosse v. Board of Supervisory of Election of Baltimore City: 243 Md. 555, 562; 221 A.2d 431, 436 (1966).
From the same Supreme Case above, including citing, is the following:
“... [U]ndoubtedly in a purely technical and abstract sense citizenship of one of the states may not include citizenship of the United States.”
I think this makes it clear that one can be a citizen of a state and not a citizen of the United States. --Gettingitdone (talk) 06:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issue: Three Citizens (Citizenships)
To all,
I will now address the issue of three citizens (citizenships).
Section 1, Clause 1 of the Amendment 14 reads:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
Section 1, Clause 2 of the Amendment 14 provides:
“No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
The following is from the Slaughterhouse Cases (83 U.S. 36) at pages 73 thru 74:
"To remove this difficulty primarily, and to establish clear and comprehensive definition of citizenship which should declare what should constitute citizenship of the United States and also citizenship of a State, the first clause of the first section (of the Fourteenth Amendment) was framed.
'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.'
The first observation we have to make on this clause is that it puts at rest both the questions which we stated to have been the subject of differences of opinion. It declares that persons may be citizens of the United States without regard to their citizenship of a particular State, and it overturns the Dred Scott decision by making all persons born within the United States and subject to its jurisdiction citizens of the United States. That its main purpose was to establish the citizenship of the negro can admit of no doubt. The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.
The next observation is more important in view of the arguments of counsel in the present case. It is that the distinction between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a State is clearly recognized and established. . . .
It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a State, which are distinct from each other, and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.
We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section (the second clause of the first section), which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of (privileges and immunities) of citizens of the several States. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same, and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause are the same.
The language is, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." It is a little remarkable, if this clause was intended as a protection to the citizen of a State against the legislative power of his own State, that the word citizen of the State should be left out when it is so carefully used, and used in contradistinction to citizens of the United States in the very sentence which precedes it. It is too clear for argument that the change in phraseology was adopted understandingly and, with a purpose.
Of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the United States, and of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the State, and what they respectively are, we will presently consider; but we wish to state here that it is only the former which are placed by this clause (the second clause of the first section) under the protection of the Federal Constitution, and that the latter, whatever they may be, are not intended to have any additional protection by this paragraph of the amendment.
I have boldfaced the following terms from this opinion:
privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States
privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States
privileges and immunities of the/(a) citizen of the United States
privileges and immunities of the/(a) citizen of the/(a) State
The Slaughterhouse court makes the observation that the term citizen of a state is in Section 1, Clause 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment but not in Section 1, Clause 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment:
“ . . . ‘"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.’ It is a little remarkable, if this clause was intended as a protection to the citizen of a State against the legislative power of his own State, that the word citizen of the State should be left out when it is so carefully used, and used in contradistinction to citizens of the United States in the very sentence which precedes it. It is too clear for argument that the change in phraseology was adopted understandingly and, with a purpose.”
Therefore, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment does not relate to a citizen of a state.
However, the Slaughterhouse court uses the term privileges and immunities of citizens of the several states in reference to Section 1, Clause 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment:
“We think this distinction and its explicit recognition in this amendment of great weight in this argument, because the next paragraph of this same section (the second clause of the first section), which is the one mainly relied on by the plaintiffs in error, speaks only of privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, and does not speak of (privileges and immunities) of citizens of the several States. The argument, however, in favor of the plaintiffs rests wholly on the assumption that the citizenship is the same, and the privileges and immunities guaranteed by the clause are the same.”
The language is, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."
The Slaughterhouse court refers to the argument of the plaintiff in error, and remarks that the brief rests on the wrong citizenship (and provision of the Constitution). In this case, before this opinion, there is the following, starting at the bottom of page 45, then to pages 55 thru 56 :
"Mr. John A. Campbell, and also Mr. J. Q. A. Fellows, argued the case at much length and on the authorities, in behalf of the plaintiffs in error. The reporter cannot pretend to give more than such an abstract of the argument as may show to what the opinion of the court was meant to be responsive. . . .
"Now, what are 'privileges and immunities' in the sense of the Constitution? They are undoubtedly the personal and civil rights which usage, tradition, the habits of society, written law, and the common sentiments of people have recognized as forming the basis of the institutions of the country. The first clause in the fourteenth amendment does not deal with any interstate relations, nor relations that depend in any manner upon State laws, nor is any standard among the States referred to for the ascertainment of these privileges and immunities. It assumes that there were privileges and immunities that belong to an American citizen, and the State is commanded neither to make nor to enforce any law that will abridge them.
The case of Ward v. Maryland bears upon the matter. That case involved the validity of a statute of Maryland which imposed a tax in the form of a license to sell the agricultural and manufactured articles of other States than Maryland by card, sample, or printed lists, or catalogue. The purpose of the tax was to prohibit sales in the mode, and to relieve the resident merchant from the competition of these itinerant or transient dealers. This court decided that the power to carry on commerce in this form was 'a privilege or immunity' of the sojourner. 2. The act in question is equally in the face of the fourteenth amendment in that it denies to the plaintiffs the equal protection of the laws. By an act of legislative partiality it enriches seventeen persons and deprives nearly a thousand others of the same class, and as upright and competent as the seventeen, of the means by which they earn their daily bread."
However, Ward v. Maryland did not deal with the Fourteenth Amendment and privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, but rather, with Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1 and citizens of the several States:
“Comprehensive as the power of the states is to lay and collect taxes and excises, it is, nevertheless, clear, in the judgment of the court, that the power cannot be exercised to any extent in a manner forbidden by the Constitution; and inasmuch as the Constitution provides that the citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states, it follows that the defendant might lawfully sell, or offer or expose for sale, within the district described in the indictment, any goods which the permanent residents of the state might sell, or offer or expose for sale in that district, without being subjected to any higher tax or excise than that exacted by law of such permanent residents.
Grant that the states may impose discriminating taxes against the citizens of other states, and it will soon be found that the power conferred upon Congress to regulate interstate commerce is of no value, as the unrestricted power of the states to tax will prove to be more efficacious to promote inequality than any regulations which Congress can pass to preserve the equality of right contemplated by the Constitution among the citizens of the several states.” Ward v. State of Maryland: 79 U.S. 418, 430-431 (1870)
Privileges and immunities of citizens of the several states therefore relate to a citizen of the several states.
Thus, from the Slaughterhouse Cases, there are three citizens (citizenships):
a citizen of the United States,
a citizen of the several States,
and a citizen of a state.
In addition, the Slaughterhouse court stated the following
--Gettingitdone (talk) 06:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]”Of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the United States, and of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the State, and what they respectively are, we will presently consider; but we wish to state here that it is only the former which are placed by this clause (the second clause of the first section) under the protection of the Federal Constitution, and that the latter, whatever they may be, are not intended to have any additional protection by this paragraph of the amendment.“