The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Ivy League[edit]

Canadian Ivy League (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

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The article is a clear demonstration of neologisms, in clear contradiction to WP:NEO. Although the article contains citations, only one citation includes use of the term ‘Canadian Ivy League’. For this reason I believe the article fails to demonstrate that the term is widely used or in line with WP:NOTABILITY. I am certain there is agreement that there is in fact no Canadian Ivy League. No formal or informal academic union or athletic conference exists by such a term. Rather the term is only used coequally to denote an often changing informal list of top-ranked Canadian universities. The Old Four and Group of Thirteen already cover this topic sufficiently as such I support deletion of Canadian Ivy League. Labattblueboy (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that the article doesn't even really discuss the topic - it's just a collection of information about these top-flight schools that has been put together under the title "Ivy League." It should be deleted, as it is just someone's synthesis of other sources into a novel idea. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 20:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• KEEP I found this article incredibly useful when I was in the process of making graduate school applications. The Old Four has more to do with soccer and the Group of Thirteen has to do with research, and nothing to do with age. I did my undergraduate studies at University of Waterloo (UW) and I wish more UW students had read this article since everyone there seems to have the false impression that UW is part of this group of six.
• delete Ive come accross this article a few times, and found it to be a synthesis of research. I have seen no reputable sources accross canada (that im aware of) mention the term 'canadian ivy league'. I would move that the article be merged at least into other relevant articles dealing with canadian univesity reputations. as the nomination stands Old Four and Group of Thirteen cover these concepts. Sources are needed showing this term is notable and common place. Ottawa4ever (talk) 21:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep While it's a ridiculous term, it's clearly in widespread usage as one can see with a quick look through some of the sources and many others not cited. The article as it currently exists may not be very good but deletion is not the answer. I caution others against letting their dislike of the term color their opinion of the article about the term. --ElKevbo (talk) 21:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The citations in the article do not establish that this is an actual thing. Most of them are just from McGill student papers and newsletters. The only one I can see that even comes close is the Boston Globe article, but even that is very vague and does NOT have the concept of "these particular schools are the canadian ivy league" as its subject. I believe this argument is a logical fallacy - a couple of newspapers refer to this idea that there is a "canadian ivy league," so some editors cobble together an article that gives a bunch of stats on the "best" canadian colleges and slaps the title "canadian ivy league" onto it. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 21:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, at best I would say this could be stubbified into a dictionary definition, but without a list of schools that this or that editor or this or that student newspaper say should be on it. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 21:58, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If the term can be verified in reputable secondary sources then i have no problem myself saying, keep. As of now like what was said that is not the case in the article despite the constant pleas for improvement. Its difficult to have an article about Ivy league schools and have established notability, when you have a tag saying citation needed for the verifiablility of the main topic the article discusses. Ottawa4ever (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The LA Times and Boston Globe pieces already cited in the article appear to be independent and non-trivial secondary sources. --ElKevbo (talk) 02:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The LA Times and Boston Globe article make it rather clear that the term is a marketing gimmick used to increase recruitment in the United States. Two newspaper articles, none in Canada for that matter, is hardly enough to show notability.Labattblueboy (talk) 17:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the fact that the phrase appears in a newspaper does not warrant the creation of an article. I just read an article that described Hamid Karzai as "wearing his signature karakul cap." Shall I create an article titled "Signature Karakul Cap" and then write about how Karzai always wears such a hat, cite the NY Times as proof that such a phrase appeared once, and then dig around and find every newspaper citation I can find that also mentions him wearing a hat? I'm not sure there's much difference here. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 00:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with WP:IDONTLIKEIT bur rather with the fact widespread usage has certainly not been demonstrated. When the term is used it appears to be used between quotation mark. I have found only 4 newspaper article that makes reference to the term since 1999 and Google scholar comes up with a total of 4 hits for "Canadian Ivy League" so I don't understand how User:ElKevbo came to conclude that it is part of the Canadian vernacular.--Labattblueboy (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete does not appear to be a specific set of schools but rather a continuously spontaneously recreated WP:NEO that writers use for obvious reasons. Is there a good rd and merge target? JJL (talk) 01:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Old Four is more related to soccer and Group of Thirteen doesn't cover the topic of major Canadian universities in nowhere near as much detail as this article. I would not be opposed to a retitling, or a merge into Group of Thirteen if possible, but deletion of referenced and useful encyclopedic content does not help in our goal of building an encyclopedia. -- œ^™ 01:30, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not at all be opposed to merging some of this info into Group of Thirteen, with a note that some of these schools are occasionally, informally called the "Canadian Ivies" (with a cite to the Boston Globe article, perhaps) Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 19:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also would not oppose such a merger. --Labattblueboy (talk) 19:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The actual Ivy League is likewise more related to (American) football and other intercollegiate athletics than any actual academic distinction. This is what makes the proliferation of all these "X Ivy League" all the more silly; often times they're already in an athletic conference. Madcoverboy (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Conditional Delete, Right now the article mainly describes why the universities in question are elite, but not why they should be grouped together as "Ivies." If there were several high profile citations from these universities and outside sources calling them "ivies" and if there were near unanimity in which universities are "Canadian Ivies" then I would say keep it. As it is, the article is simply boosterism for the listed universities and not an encyclopedic entry. --Cjs56 (talk) 20:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Speaking as a former Canadian academic, this term is not in wide use inside Canada, and its use elsewhere is probably not notable. Given that this is a neogism, and that there is no clear agreement on the meaning (to the extent that it's not exactly clear which schools count), this should be deleted. Hairhorn (talk) 18:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Same boosterish nonsense as Public Ivy League, Southern Ivy League, Midwestern Ivy League, and inevitably someday Metropolitan Peoria Ivy League. Non-notable, non-neutral neologism. Madcoverboy (talk) 03:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The term does not formally exist, and the second paragraph alludes to this fact - "The label is derived from general rhetoric, and as such there is no strict list of the schools included in the group". Allowing the use of an informally ill-defined phrase as the basis of a Wikipedia article sets a dangerous precedent for original research.TennisGrandSlam (talk) 18:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 01:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 01:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The article opens "The Canadian Ivy League, or "Canadian Ivies" is an informal term used to describe selective Canadian universities.[citation needed] The label is derived from general rhetoric, and as such there is no strict list of the schools included in the group." The author of an article on the Canadian Ivy League has the burden of proving that there is such a thing, by demonstrating that the term really is in widespread use. As others have noted, this is not an article on any "Canadian Ivy league," but an essay or original research on the question of which are the best Canadian universities. The fact that there is "no strict list of the schools" is an obvious red flag. There's no scope for debate or opinion as to which schools are in the real Ivy League; Dartmouth is, Stanford isn't, period. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Move. Rescale, clean up, and move the article to either Old Four or Group of Thirteen; some of the information is useful (such as the table of Macleans rankings since 1991). If no one is up to the task, delete. 6mat1 (talk) 07:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - seems to be a synthesis to promote a neologism. I think an article on 'Rankings of universities in Canada' or something like that would be acceptable, providing it was sufficiently neutral and well-sourced, but the term 'Canadian Ivy League' doesn't seem worthy of an article. Robofish (talk) 01:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I have never heard this term used or seen it written before, despite having attended two of the listed universities. As noted above, we have Canadian-made distinctions that identify types of universities and the idea of describing Canadian universities in terms of American ones does not seem to me very useful or worth promoting, because the two educational systems are quite different. Accounting4Taste:talk 23:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• delete per Dpbsmith's reasoning. This is cobbled together and is in no way a specific group. cOrneLlrOckEy (talk) 13:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.