The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Brandon (talk) 07:58, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Black Ivy League[edit]

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This is a neologism sourced to one 1984 book. Similar AfDs for New Ivy League and Midwestern Ivy League resulted in deletion. (Also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Canadian Ivy League (2nd nomination).) Since the article was first created in May 2009, the schools it lists as the Black Ivy league changed. A google search on "black ivy league" turns up media discussions of Ivy League faculty who happen to be African American, including the President of one Ivy League school who is African-American, and an organization called the Black Ivy Alumni League which is for Ivy League alumni who are African-American. I could not locate substantial secondary sources to support the wide-spread acceptance of this neologism. The content should be included in the articles for the individual schools. The content of the article does not identify any unique characteristics that could be used to identify a Black Ivy League school compared with other HBCUs. Also, a search of the US Patent and Trademark Office data base shows that both "Ivy League" and "The Ivy League" are registered trademarks. Racepacket (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Delete - ego-stroking article about some fine schools; no substantiation that this is a widely-used term. (Full disclosure: I went to Tennessee State University, an HBCU not on this list, and am proud of it.) --Orange Mike | Talk 16:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to historically black colleges and universities, and even then, it should be emphasized that it's a reference used in some sources. Although I have heard this term before, and expected that it would turn up in a Google news search, it hasn't caught on. One can find plenty of news articles about African-American students, graduates and professors of Harvard, Yale, and other Ivy League schools. On the other hand, try to do a search of the terms "black Ivy League" and any of the schools on the list-- Howard, Morehouse, Fisk, etc. -- and it doesn't show up very often. Mandsford (talk) 18:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I can find a large number of press and book references, which makes me think the concept of a "Black Ivy League" is easily notable enough for a Wikipedia article, even if there is not a strictly defined membership of schools, and even if the article needs some improvement. The concept clearly predates the 1984 book currently cited as the source of the term.

Extended content - 25 citations

[1] St. Petersburg Times, 9/21/2003, "HBCUs are not a monolith. They range from the likes of small, cash-strapped Wiley College in Texas to those of the wealthy "Black Ivy League": Howard University, Hampton University, Spelman College, Fisk University, Morehouse College, Tuskegee University and Dillard University. One of the seven is often cited in U.S. News & World Report's annual issue touting the nation's best colleges."

[2] St. Petersburg Times, May 27, 2007, "The top-tier schools will continue to attract good students and remain vibrant, financially viable institutions. Among those familiar names are Spelman College and Morehouse College in Atlanta and Howard University in Washington, D.C., each a member of the so-called "Black Ivy League."" (Bill Maxwell articles were reprinted below in "Best African American Essays 2009")

[3] Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 11/14/1992, "Like most private HBCUs, Fisk University has been on a roller coaster ride since its heyday a half-century ago as part of America's black Ivy League."

[4] Philadelphia Inquirer 1/28/1997, "Key to the resurgence of the "Black Ivy League" is a growing perception among"

[5] North Star News, 2/19/2009, "Black institutions that carry the names Howard, Fisk, Hampton, Morehouse, Morgan, Tuskegee, and Cheyney to name a few. These schools were the equivalent of a Black Ivy League"

[6] Inter Press Service English News Wire, 2/22/2005, title "THE STRUGGLES OF THE 'BLACK IVY LEAGUE'"

[7] Baltimore Sun, 2/24/1993, "Along with Morehouse College in Atlanta, and Howard University in Washington, Fisk University was part of what was called the black Ivy League"

[8] Seattle Times, 3/29/1992, "Even if Fisk is a part of the "black Ivy League," ..."

[9] Diverse Issues In Higher Education 5/31/2007, "The small but prestigious historically Black college was once considered one of the "Black Ivy League" universities in the United States."

[10] Philadelphia Tribune, 11/19/2002, "Edwards said of the all-female college, which along with Morehouse is considered to be part of the Black Ivy League -- a group of well known historically Black colleges and universities including Howard and Hampton universities."

[11] Washington Post 11/13/1992, ""I really knew nothing about Howard except for the educational part," Watson said. "I knew they called it the black Ivy League"

[12] Chicago Tribune 8/15/1976, "This "Black Ivy League" is composed of Morehouse, Atlanta University, Morris Brown, Gannon, Clark Spelman..."

[13] Boston EDGE, Oct. 2009, "Morehouse College belongs to the so-called "Black Ivy League.""

[14] Book: Understanding minority-serving institutions (2008)p.51 "the strongest [HBCUs] are often called the 'Black Ivy League'"

[15] Ebony magazine (Aug 1967) "They seek to make their institutions 'black Ivy League' colleges (one frequently hears at Howard that it is the 'black Harvard'"

[16] Book: Best African American Essays 2009 "...each a member of the so-called 'Black Ivy League'" (reprinted Bill Maxwell's article above from St. Petersburg Times)

[17] Book: Historical dictionary of school segregation and desegregation (1998) "including the so-called Black Ivy League schools of Fisk University, Morehouse College, Spelman College, Dillard University, Howard University, Hampton University, and Tuskegee University"

[18] Book: The Black teacher and the dramatic arts: a dialogue, bibliography, and anthology (1970) "this is especially true of the 'Black Ivy League' colleges"

[19] Book: History of the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, 1913-1990 (1994), "After much discussion between the institutions, the idea of a Black Ivy League was dropped"

[20] Book: What really happened to the class of '65 (1976): "That's where Dr. King went to college; its his alma mater. It's one of the so-called black ivy-league colleges. It has a good deal of prestige among black people when it comes to that sort of thing."

[21]Book: Instructing and mentoring the African American college student (2005) "As a result, black schools came into the public eye and the "Black Ivy League" composed of schools such as Spelman, Morehouse, and Fisk were highlighted ..."

[22] The Western political quarterly, Volume 26 (1973) "Fisk is one of the "Black Ivy League" schools and enjoys significant prestige whereas the two state schools are considerably less well recognized"

[23] The Role of Black Colleges and Black Law Schools in the Training of Black Lawyers..., Journal of Negro History (1985) "As perceived by black and white academicians, the Black Ivy League would include Morehouse College, Fisk University, Tuskegee, Spelman College... " "The Black Ivy League's 8 schools have done so much with so little"

[24] The Crisis (NAACP magazine) Jul-Aug 2006 "Reaching that goal would still leave Fisk in the dust when compared with other Black "Ivy League" institutions of its stature"

[25] Book: Equal Justice Under Law: An Autobiography (1999) "From what I had read, Fisk seemed a part of the black Ivy League, and I wanted to attend a black college."

[26] New York Times (1972), "How can a school that has produced such pro football stars as Willie Lanier, Leroy Kelly and Ray Chester live down the image of a football factory and live up to its own image of a black Ivy League school? Morgan State thinks it has the answer."

--Milowent (talk) 21:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All those cites will improve the article and likely change people's minds toward a keep. No offense, but I think that putting all of this in the discussion detracts from the good work that you've done. Mandsford (talk) 22:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you do that collapse thing for it? I don't know how to do that yet.--Milowent (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Racepacket (talk) 04:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One question is the currency of the term. In the 1950's these school attracted the very best African-American faculty and students, who were unjustly discriminated against by many schools. However, by the 1960's the Ivy League actively recruited both African-American faculty and students, and today, the Ivy League offers such extensive financial aid packages that students from low income families can graduate debt-free. So, today, faculty and students go to HBCU schools by choice, and the most prestigious colleges for people of color are also the most prestigious colleges for whites. As a result, the term, and the concept behind it, may have grown obsolete. Eight of the 26 above references are from this century, but I have not checked to see if they all refer to prior times. The most recent references paint a bleak future for the fate of these colleges, and note the competition from historically white schools. If the article survives, we need to address the time period in which the term was used and the group of schools to which it was applied.Racepacket (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The currency of the term is subject to debate (though a number of the references i found are from the past few years), but it still seems notable whether the term is used in a historical sense or a contemporary sense.--Milowent (talk) 05:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For example, one of the sources, "Equal Justice Under Law: An Autobiography" By Constance Baker Motley, refers to Lincoln University in Pennsylvania as a part of the Black Ivy League. We have no way to define this group. 66.173.140.100 (talk) 04:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the term may not always be used to apply to the same colleges doesn't mean the term isn't notable, in my view. Most sources seem to cite the same seven colleges. A few others are mentioned here and there.--Milowent (talk) 05:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)][reply]

Do you agree that the concept is no longer current? If in the 21st century, the United States is a country where all Americans can share the same President, haven't we come to the point where African-Americans and white Americans can share the same Ivy League? If an African-American student is accepted at both Howard and Harvard, where would s/he attend (particularly when Harvard has much larger financial aid resources)? Also, the articles cited by Milowent indicate that these schools cannot compete with large-endowment schools for the best African-American faculty. To Thurgood Marshall and the others being discussed in the cited articles, the "Black Ivy League" meant the "best schools available to me." By that definition, it now means Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. Also, how would we rewrite the article if we don't have any criteria for deciding which schools are in the "Black Ivy League?" I want very much to document higher education accurately, and have worked on some HBCU articles, but I don't know how we can approach this one without lapsing into boosterism, Separate but equal, or arbitrary definitions. The current article appears to argue that creating a separate Harvard for blacks is just as good as the other Harvard, and then discusses football and greek societies. Racepacket (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making a value judgment about the concept, I just see that it exists and has been referenced repeatedly in many sources. Many parts of the current article may not be verifiable and may have to go. As for which schools are included, we cite the sources' lists, and can say something like, "at times other schools such as XXX have also been claimed to be Black Ivies."(add cites). The concept of black ivies was indeed boosterism for schools that use(d) it for such purposes, just like people might refer to Duke or Vanderbilt as a Southern Ivy.--Milowent (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your position and the excellent scholarship that went into the list. My problem is 1) that we don't have criteria. There are schools just as good as the Ivy League (Stanford and MIT, for example) but the definitional criteria is whether they are in a particular athletic league. and 2) that the term may have been passed by time. I am still reading your sources, but the ones I have read speak in terms of the pre-1960's and admit that things are different today. Deleting the page on those two grounds would avoid two unresolvable "hot button" issues.

Ref #2 and #16 are the same article in two places. Ref #19 discusses an abandoned proposal to create an athletic conference called "Black Ivy League." Ref #14 is an essay arguing that the phrase "Black Ivy League" is inappropriate. Ref #5 is hedged as "equivalent of a Black Ivy League." etc. Racepacket (talk) 23:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Per above keeps.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Milowent stated above that "Most sources seem to cite the same seven colleges"; however, of the 24 sources above, only 2 cite all of the seven colleges identified in this article as being the Black Ivy League. (I am disregarding the fact that one of the sources that does identify the seven is Bill Maxwell's article, which appears twice on the list.) There are 10 sources that identify one or more of the seven colleges as being Black Ivy League schools, which doesn't contradict the article but leaves open the question as to which other schools should be considered Black Ivies. The other sources aren't available in full online, or identify schools not classified by this article as Black Ivies as being in the Black Ivy League. So I would actually say that "few" sources can be found which cite the same seven colleges as being the Black Ivy League. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 10:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. While Wikipedia does have articles about other loosely defined groupings of colleges which are identified by an "ivy" name like Southern Ivies, they don't tend to go on in such detail because those groupings are loosely defined and there is no definitive statement as to which colleges are in or out. That is the case with the Black Ivy League; note that the sources quoted above identify Morgan State University (twice), Cheyney University of Pennsylvania, Clark College and Atlanta University (now Clark Atlanta University), Morris Brown College, "Gannon" (not sure what this refers to -- Gannon University doesn't seem to be a historically black college), and Lincoln University (Pennsylvania) as Black Ivy League colleges, although this Wikipedia article does not identify them as such. I would recommend that the article be edited down to discuss the concept of a Black Ivy League, rather than to describe these particular schools as being the Black Ivy League. Also, the article should be shortened in other ways. For example, the "Athletics" section prominently features a list of football "classic" rivalry games, only one of which features two of the designated "Black Ivy" schools competing against each other, which tends to weaken the idea that these schools see themselves as a group. Similarly, the "Campus life" section does not indicate whether activities such as homecoming, fraternities, and sororities differ significantly at the Black Ivies from other historically black colleges and universities. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, don't merge. This is a rather hasty form of research, but a quick search of "black ivies" (in quotes) on Google Books gives 20 results while "hidden ivies" (in quotes) gives around the same; 18. Again, I know this is just a search, but it still shows that the term is being used. 174.18.1.200 (talk) 04:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article needs work, but it defines a topic, and if this is merged into the article, it might be re-created again someday when that section gets too large, should more information be founf. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 04:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.