The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  07:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Best German Novels of the Twentieth Century (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

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Non-notable listing of works, which has no outside third party reliable sources to assert the notability and importance of the list. ΔT _{^{The only constant}} 22:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep.

Why is this marked for deletion at all?

99 experts compiled this list.

When did Kafka become non-notable? Many of these titles are very well known in English, but several are not so familiar.

This is why we are interested in the opinion of German language experts, advising us on what we should be reading from their culture.

Varlaam (talk) 23:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not disputing the authors or their work, just the individual list, anyone can compile a list of "the best", what makes this grouping meet the inclusion criteria for Wikipedia? ΔT _{^{The only constant}} 00:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP already includes the Modern Library list as a page, and that page is notable for its self-serving and non-disinterested nature.

WP already includes lists of important books that are US-centric, exclusively or nearly so. This list, and the Dutch one, actually inform people of things they don't already know.

I read German, Dutch and a dozen other languages. I personally don't need to have it in English. I'm translating this because it appears to provide worthwhile information for readers who can't access it in its original foreign language format.

Varlaam (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - It's a notable list in my opninion, at least in Germany, selected by many of the most important German writers, made it to the headlines in 1999. It's informative, in my opninion, for anyone intersested in German literature. Don't see much difference with list like Modern Library 100 Best Novels and The Big Read. Pimbrils (talk) 08:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - There is no evidence within the article that this listing of authors is notable within the terms of WP:N. My good faith searches are unable to uncover any additional evidence (although the article name is a fairly generic name). To Varlaam - this listing would probably be a fine source to use in developing the articles on Kafka, Mann, et cetera - the issue here is whether the list itself deserves an article, to which Wikipedia policy says, no. - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into German literature which needs work and more sources. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:24, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I wouldn't have thought there's anything relevant to merge, unless you just mean use the existence of the list as a citation and disregard the substantive content. - DustFormsWords (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - where is the source indicating that this list is notable even in German, not to speak of English? Yakushima (talk) 11:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep- There is a source at here.Smallman12q (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Smallman's source begins 'Musils "Mann ohne Eigenschaften" ist "wichtigster Roman des Jahrhunderts"'

i.e. Musil's novel is the most important novel of the century, and then goes on to say more.

Varlaam (talk) 02:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep- Looks interesting. I'd like to see it be expanded to include details about the authors, critics and scholars who were involved, and some of the other novels that were considered.-- I NEVER CRY 00:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge per the Colonel, Sadads (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I have added the source that Smallman12q provided, and another that I found (a book; Google Books won't show me the associated endnote, sadly, or that would probably have been a 3rd reference. Others can probably be found; hopefully someone can track down a newspaper article. As it is the 2 mentions indicate both the broad basis of the process and the fact it was talked up in print, satisfying notability criteria in my view. The fact the list concerns literature in a foreign language and the sources are also foreign-language is of course irrelevant to notability. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• The author is having his doubts now.

Smallman's discovery I had not seen before. That is a little press-type release which basically says what the Dutch article says. I translated from the Dutch article. I assumed that notability had already been established, more or less, over there. That article has a source link.

I of course was curious as to who the 99 experts were, and what the titles of the other books alluded to were precisely.

I assumed that when I had 90 seconds free I would be able to find the full article online.

Well, I've just spent over an hour running Google searches on German pages looking for combinations of Musil's novel with either Anna Seghers or Arno Schmidt.

You get hits. On university curriculum reading lists, or in books giving an overview of important German literature.

But that's not what I'm looking for.

So have we (me) been hoodwinked? The Literaturehouse Munich was only established in 1997. Was this a publicity stunt?

Anyway, I have sent an email to Literaturhaus Muenchen asking them what the story is.

I will tell you if and when I receive a response.

Varlaam (talk) 05:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Newspaper articles often don't get included in the online archive, or are behind some kind of paywall. I had hoped to find it in Der Spiegel, since they have good online archives, but didn't. It's still possible I missed it, and more than likely that someone with access to a specialized database can find it. I suggest searching on Bertelsmann and items 1 and 3, to minimize spelling/OCR problems. If you have good library access, Varlaam, go look. Or if you can physically find that book I cited (it's the proceedings of a conference), the endnote will be a source that can probably be tracked down. Though the list was undoubtedly compiled for reasons of publicity - what do publishers do for any other reason? - I have no doubt other citable mentions exist. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, per Yngvadottir. Playmobilonhishorse (talk) 04:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.