The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The keep arguments have failed to effectively refute the policy/guideline based delete arguments. Kevin (talk) 21:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Bee Money (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Although there are enough claims of importance (hit songs) that I declined the speedy deletion request, I'm not finding enough sources to show this artist meets WP:BIO. No entry at allmusic, gsearch not turning up independent reliable sources. The sources in the article are a listing of where he'll appear locally, a pdf that doesn't mention him, and an article in his school newspaper. Prod contested by article's creator without comment. Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Appears to be a local club performer with little to no notability. Eeekster (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - the relevant criteria are WP:N and WP:MUSICBIO and I can't find anything in the article to suggest that he meets any criterion under either of those policies. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Bee Money is notable per the basic notability criteria WP:BIO. He has be the subject of secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent from the subject. This criteria is met by the school newspaper. Bee Money is not a student at Brigham Young University and never has been. The newspaper is also a reputable paper. Further, Bee Money is also notable under the additional criteria for entertainers. He has a large fan base in the Utah Valley region and his following could be considered a "cult" following. Also his fight for clean music is a unique and innovative contribution to the rap industry. Further Emerson meets the criteria WP:MUSICBIO. He has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city. Ericf9 (talk) 05:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)— Ericf9 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. — Ericf9 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment - I think you're reading WP:BIO too narrowly. It also requires the subject of the article to be "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded". Further, regarding sources, I don't know how a student newspaper could possibly be claimed as a reliable source, especially since it's not linked, it's non-notable, and no information is included on how one might go about obtaining a copy. Lastly, the article doesn't assert him to be "the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city" - whether you're talking about rap generally, clean rap, or the entirely non-notable rap scene of Provo, UT - and neither do any of the sources. (And his "hits" don't meet any of the criteria under WP:MUSICBIO.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom and the analysis by DustFormsWords.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 05:58, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Bee Money Article appears to be notable according to criteria WP:BIO. Bee Money has a immense cult following and is an advocate for clean rap music. - User:Bigbusinessonly — Bigbusinessonly (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete - Bee Money Article does not appear to be notable according to criteria WP:BIO. Bee Money may have an immense cult following, but we've seen no proof of this, and being an advocate for clean rap music does not infer notability - see WP:N#CLEANRAPMUSICADVOCATESAREEXEMPT. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 23:53, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - This article appears to be notable seeing as he is the only representative of the Provo, UT rap scene which contains two major Universities, Brigham Young University and Utah Valley University. Thats over 55,000 students in one valley. Who are the biggest rap fans? kids age 20-30 aka college kids and so if theres only one rapper, everyone knows him and they'll want to look him up and figure out his story and where would they turn? wikipedia unless you fetchers try to delete it. dont hate! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinodude81 (talk • contribs) 05:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC) — Dinodude81 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Keep Bee Money is notable to say the least. He is an icon in the Utah Valley. Deletion of this article would be a loss for the wikipedia community (User talk:Thisisamericamyfriends — Thisisamericamyfriends (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete - coverage in a student newspaper does not establish notability. Whpq (talk) 16:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - welcome to Wikipedia, all you new editors involved here. Here's what you do if you want to prove this person is notable: find reliable sources saying he's notable. The sources provided so far are not cutting it, and you guys saying he's awesome and an advocate for stuff doesn't help at all. (Oh, and calling people names and saynig "don't hate!" doesn't help much either.) At present, the subject fails WP:MUSIC. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep It appears that all of you "experienced" wikipedia editors advocating the deletion of this article, claim that "the Bee Money Article does not appear to be notable according to criteria WP:BIO" Here's what you can do. Research what wikipedia state's as meeting criteria for musicians and ensembles. #7 states that an artist "Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability." Verifiability under "your" (wikipedia's) terms is whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. The common theme in the "notability guidelines" is the requirement for verifiable objective evidence to support a claim of notability, which all of our sources do. Substantial coverage in reliable sources constitutes such objective evidence, as do published peer recognition and the other factors listed in the subject specific guidelines. School and university newspapers would therefore be classified as "published peer recognition." So don't debate that university newspapers are not "reliable." In conclusion, don't refute that Bee Money is not notable. According to WP:BIO #7, he is. That is sufficient. Read our sources THOROUGHLY. Do not say that our sources do not establish notability. According to your terms, "published peer recognition and the other factors (which are met) is considered substantial coverage as a reliable sources. Red20five (talk) 06:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC) — red20five (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

  Before lecturing about reading WP:BAND, you might want to read that section again. It starts out "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) may be notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:" (emphasis mine). May be notable is not the same as is automatically notable. This just gives some guidelines on the types of articles that should be in Wikipedia. The other notability requirements still need to be met. The issue seems to be the sources. If you read WP:N, you'll see that ""Sources," for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally preferred." A short newspaper article isn't enough on its own; a listing of appearances doesn't provide any depth of coverage, and sources that don't even mention him surely can't provide evidence of notability.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article appears notable. imonaboatlikeaboss (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC). — Imonaboatlikeaboss (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Comment - (still sticking by my Delete vote above) - Just wanted to point out that Provo, UT is a city of only 117,000 people and being a prominent figure on its rap scene is presumably not much harder than performing a couple of live gigs. - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Well DustFormsWords you seem to have done your research, unfortunately you failed to take into account that "Provo is also the principal city in the Provo-Orem metropolitan area, with an estimated population of 540,820 residents.[4] It is the second largest metro area in the state behind Salt Lake City." That's straight from the Provo Wikipedia page, which means it is very notable. Probably also the same page you looked at to get your last statistic but then failed to keep reading in order to find out that Provo is the principal city of the second largest metro area in Utah not just an isolated city of only 117,592 people. Plus that is a completely ridiculous statement to say that all it takes to become a prominent rap figure in Provo is a couple of live gigs! You come to Provo and rap, or for that matter perform live whatever you want, and I guarantee no one knows your name and you don't get half as many fans as Bee Money! ONE OUT!-Billnted (talk) 05:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC) — Billnted (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment - but on what basis are you basing your opinion of keep on? -- Whpq (talk) 11:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Serious? - Billnted (talk) 20:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.