- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Withdrawn because of the sources found by User:Ingratis. Fram (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Armorial of schools in the United Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Trivial intersection without notability. Some schools have armorials, but the subject, the group hasn't received special attention, and the schools are not defined by it. Fram (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep There are lots of detailed encyclopedias of heraldry and works such as this specifically include British schools. The topic therefore passes WP:LISTN. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The only hits for "school" in that book are University colleges, which have a separate article, Armorial of British universities, which isn't up for deletion here. The only school in this list which seems to be included in that book is Eton (there may be a few others at best). Logical, since that book is from 1830, and the vast, vast majority of entries in the list are 20th century ones. Furthermore, no, that book doesn't discuss schools specifically, it discusses all armorials indiscriminately. One can make all kinds of cross-sections based on such books, that doesn't make the cross-section a notable topic in itself. So no, at least based on your source, this topic doesn't pass WP:LISTN at all. Fram (talk) 09:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- That work specifically says that it covers "Schools, Colleges and Hospitals". I found it by searching for Eton which naturally the sort of place that would have arms. This and the other works I found seem quite huge and it is sensible to subdivide by specific types such as schools rather than having a huge alphabetical list of all types mixed together. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- 1. It is a bit hard to judge the claim that "the other works I found seem quite huge" when you haven't provided them, and 2. this book didn't subdivide by schools, it subdivided by "counties, cities, boroughs, towns, abbeys, monasteries, deaneries, sees, universities, schools, colleges, hospitals, societies, bodies, trading companies". All lumped together in one list, with, like I said, Eton included, and "schools" which are university colleges. There is no subsection for schools, there is no discussion of schools, and there are hardly any entries for schools, so it is not evidence that listn is met at all. Fram (talk) 10:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:BEFORE, the nominator is expected to "search for additional sources" but the nomination provides no details of this. In providing a link, I have already done more. See WP:POT and WP:SAUCE. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- See WP:AGF especially, and spare me your essays. No, providing a link which doesn't support your position isn't doing more, unless you mean "more harm". Just like claiming that you have more sources, but not providing them, is not doing anything productive. Anyway, I did search, and even for individual schools I often could not find anything beyond the personal wiki site "heraldry of the world", main source for the article; for the topic as a whole, I could not find any decent source. And none have been presented so far. Fram (talk) 11:11, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I have provided evidence while the nominator has not. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I can hardly prove a negative. I can provide you with some searches I did which yielded no results, but these would not prove that no sources exist, and you could always suggest an endless list of other searches I should have done. If they don't produce anything better than your lone 1830 book on all armorials in Brtain, including at least 1 school, then they wouldn't make any difference to the call for deletion anyway. Fram (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Still no actual evidence – just excuses and sophistry. Let's see what happens when one starts reading the page in question. For example, consider the first entry which is for Abbey College, Malvern. This has a source link which takes us to a web page. That page cites "Briggs, 1971". That appears to be the work Civic and Corporate Heraldry by Geoffrey Briggs which is a respectable compendium of this sort. This demonstrates that WP:LISTN is met and so we're good. The existence of such sources demonstrates that there are sensible alternatives to deletion: "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." This is how it's done – "seek and ye shall find". Andrew🐉(talk) 14:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Verifiability doesn't mean notability. "A dictionary of impersonal arms" doesn't indicate that the armorial of schools is in itself a notable topic. Such sources are good to be used in e.g. the individual school article, as a source for the armorial. Is there any reliable source at all that gives specific attention to school armorials, e.g. discussing typical themes, discussing why some schools have them and others don't, discussing what their importance is for the schools, ... Or is all you have some directory-style books or databases which includes, among many other things, also some schools? The subject doesn't seem to have really interested any good sources[1]. Fram (talk) 08:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- These sources are fine for establishing notability per WP:LISTN. The search link which has been provided at last is, however, quite inadequate. There are many other terms besides armorial which are used for this topic including heraldry, coat of arms, device, crest, badge, emblem, &c. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:21, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- No: according to LISTN, a list topic is notable if "it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". Neither of your two sources indicates this. Your second point is as predicted: "you could always suggest an endless list of other searches I should have done". As could be expected, no better sources suddenly appear when you replace "armorial" with "heraldry"[2], "coat of arms"[3], "device"[4], "crest"[5], "badge"[6] or "emblem"[7]. Fram (talk) 11:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - it seems from the above that the issue is simply whether or not school arms constitute a group that has been treated i its own right as a serious scholarly subject, and is thus a list topic in Wikipedia terms: here you go - Scholastic arms; the arms, crests or badges used by four hundred schools, colleges, and universities: Beaulah, G. K, 1936, Manchester; and Armorial bearings of British schools: Christie-Murray, David, and Escott, Dan [1967?], Cambridge. I've added these to the article.Ingratis (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep This article (or rather list) has been written very badly. However lots of UK schools have arms and they are often of historical significance and therfore are WP:NOTABLE so this could be a useful, albeit not-often-used research source. 122.60.173.107 (talk) 06:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.