The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Armagetron Advanced

[edit]

Re-listing after a botched bundled nomination. Can't find any evidence of notability as Wikipedia defines it, so I request deletion. ♠P M C♠ 21:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 14:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:WEB; no evidence of independent third-party coverage (fansites don't really count). Walton monarchist89 19:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 12:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, Apple provides downloadable packages for this game, which goes a long way towards meeting one of the proposed criteria on WP:SOFT. [1] John Vandenberg 12:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC
Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. John Vandenberg 13:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Counter Argument: Just to point out that since Armagetron Advanced has superceeded the original Armagetron project, the Armagetron entry redirects to the Armagetron Advanced entry. Since Armagetron was included on many linux distribution install cd sets, it counts as having distributed through a well known medium independent of the Authours, as per the Wikipedia Notability definition. A list of independent packages: http://rpmseek.com/rpm-pl/armagetron.html?hl=com&cx=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.228.169 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 27 January 2007
Most distributions have upgraded their installed Armagetron to 0.2.7.1, which is the second release under the name Armagetron Advanced. Mandriva and Kubuntu (therefore, Ubuntu as well) and Gentoo have all been spotted by developers as having upgraded to 0.2.7.0 or higher. It takes time, and Armagetron Advanced hasn't been around that long compared to the original Armagetron project. I'd also like to point out that many notable open source games aren't going to have any third-party distribution, and are going to struggle to meet the letter of the notability policy. That's because while many open source games have significant following, few, if any, ever appear anywhere else. Packages to Linux distributions are largely maintained by someone within each game project, (with a few exceptions, such as Mandriva and Ubuntu). I think the list of games that were nominated by PMC for the most part should either not be deleted, or should be exempted from the notability requirement because there is a sizeable community built around each of them. --70.244.120.143 04:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To the newcomers, welcome! If any of the newcomers are part of the Armagetron Advanced project, please read conflict of interest; it doesnt preclude you from participating in this Afd process, but it nice to alert others who you are.
The point about distribution is well made. "143.167.228.169", you have claimed that Armagetron Advanced superceeded the Armagetron project -- can you provide evidence of that, either by:

showing it is a fork of the original codebase
demonstrating that the same developers have migrated to the new project
the new project is feature-compatible with the earlier project
a distro dropped the earlier project at the same time they picked up the Advanced project
some other way that I havent thought of

In addition to that, to bulster the chances of this article being kept, please find some independent reviews of either the original or the Advanced version. (read WP:V to determine what you need to look for). Note that user-contributed directory listings like [2] are not enough. John Vandenberg 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See the original Armagetron front page (points to advanced), original Armagetron project page (points to advanced, developer overlap) and Armagetron Advanced project page (developer overlap). The source code of 0.2.6.0 (final original release, besides the 0.2.6.1 security-related update) and 0.2.7.0 (first advanced release) should be nearly identical, etc.
I'm not an AA dev although not too far from it. I suspect the people above without accounts are on the team. --Jonathanvt 07:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, I (143.167.228.169) am one of the Armagetron Advanced project administrators, I go by the name of Tank Program within the Armagetron community. I was previously unaware of the conflict of interest guidelines as I have not previously contributed to Wikipedia. In that light, please treat my comments as someone who wishes for the article to remain in place and is willing to support its retainment with supporting evidence. To be honest, I am unaware of Armagetron appearing in any major publication. Most reviews that can be found come in the form of blog entries, forum entries or small site reviews. This suggests Armagetron follows more a word of mouth pattern, where a person hears from a friend and shows the game to another friend. Some examples:

Also, though this isn't a fantastic selling point, Armagetron Advanced does pop up in security advisories ocaisonally. Luigi Auriemma has devoted time to scanning Armagetron Advanced for security holes and consequently advisories have popped up in several locations:

http://www.securiteam.com/windowsntfocus/5JP0A15EVO.html http://www.frsirt.com/english/vendor/256 http://secunia.com/advisories/21093

Furthermore, packet capture utility Wireshark also has an Armagetron Advanced display filter (http://www.wireshark.org/docs/dfref/a/armagetronad.html) contributed by Guillaume Chazarain (http://wireshark.osmirror.nl/lists/ethereal-dev/200505/msg05740.html) a developer independent from the Armagetron Advanced project. Looking through the complete list of such filters, there are very few other network game filters, the only other one I could see was for Quake3.
Thanks guys. Any chance one of you can upload a screenshot of "Walls" and/or one of the original game, for old times sake. Let me know the filename.
Ok, I vote keep on this one. The original sf.net project was started in 2000 and after what appears to be an amicable fork the team have continued under the new name; it is carried in a number of distributions and being offered on the Apple site as an OS X download is pretty notable IMO; finally, a few of those reviews are independent and more than directory entries (I've added three to the article). Having security advisories and a Wireshark filter already is pretty nifty really; it shows that this game is being used in the dungeons while the vampires wait for their wings to dry out. Whats more, the developers who have joined us on this Afd have been pretty level headed. Also, its available via Linspire's Click'N'Run [3]. John Vandenberg 13:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note about OS X download on Apple site: anyone can add programs there, so it's one of those directories.
The graphics didn't change much with the advanced fork (mostly textures at some point). Only the window title of this article's screenshot shows that it's most likely of the original and not an early advanced. It also shows a messed up renderer and rather ugly texture filtering settings, so it should probably be replaced by a quality screenshot.
As for screenshots of Walls, there are a few very old screenshots buried in the original web pages. They might be of Walls or something not much newer. To be sure we need an answer from the person who put them there. I'll ask. --Jonathanvt 19:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note to self: look at the title ("Walls: Screenshots") next time. --Jonathanvt 19:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Armagetron Advanced appeared in http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=8&cId=3156339 - an article that, in turn, appeared in the print publication "Games For Windows: The Official Magazine". While the article was only a summary list of free games, AA was present (listed as "Armagetron" but with a file link to "Armagetron Advanced"). -- Pxtl
- Written sources must be non-trivial, that is, they must have a "depth of content...exclusive of mere directory entry information, [that] directly it addresses the subject" (WP:NOTE). The article was only a summary list, thus, a mention doesn't meet the criteria for a valid, non-trivial source. ♠P M C♠ 20:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - reviews are good enough sources... Addhoc 23:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - mainly because it is widely available, a bit cult, game, which is related to a definately cult movie Tron. From my perspective, I always knew that playing tron 3d was available under Linux thanks to Armagetron. SalvNaut 00:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.