The result was Delete. Strength of numbers below favors deletion; it is also worth noting that the limited sources are mostly not independent. Of the few that are, these mentions merely verify the existence of the group, and do not devote much time to it, or ascribe to it any great significance. A very limited mention of these folks in the 9/11 Truth article might be undertaken (one sourced sentence) without the need for the GFDL history here, if commenters at that talk page don't object. Xoloz 16:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm nominating this because it's unsourced (apart from one unreliable source) and I think it's probably unverifiable. A cursory google search doesn't turn up any third-party reliable sources. P4k 08:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
--Haemo 19:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
--PTR 14:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
. O.K. I'm new around here, and I see that I have to write two articles, one for Wikipedia and one for critics. . The importance of this article is revealed, in part, by the amount of vandalism it has attracted. . The DVD Loose Change has its own article. The DVD from ae911truth is the new Loose Change. It has only been out for two days, but by the time it's as old as Loose Change, it will have a very long bibliography. . I discovered earlier that I cannot re-add an article which was previously deleted, no matter how much circumstances have changed since the earlier discussion, and apparently, I can't even read the earlier discussion. It just gets a quick removal. . This article will have several categories of opponents. It merely presents facts about an organization which merely presents evidence that the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Therefore, there is no "conspiracy theory" involved. It has been asserted elsewhere that in any gathering where architects and engineers are present when Richard Gage makes his presentation, 90% of those people join his organization. Where do you imagine he got 150 professional members in a fairly short time? . Dr. Steven Jones has presented a chemical analysis of material retrieved from the WTC and of dust from the neighborhood along with his analysis of the physics of the falling structure. He was faulted for this by the engineering faculty at BYU because he is "only a physicist," and not an architect or structural engineer. ae911truth.org presents a list of 16 indicators that controlled demolition was used at the WTC. One of these indicators is the thermite/ thermate residue Dr. Jones identified in the formerly molten metal from the site and the "iron rich spheroids" retrieved from the dust. Formerly molten metal? Yes. Dozens of people, including the president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. mentioned TONS of molten metal under each of the three high-rises that collapsed at the WTC more than a MONTH after the demolition. That cannot be explained by the theory of burning jet fuel (a/k/a "kerosene"). Very large quantities of thermate were apparently used in this demolition. There is easily enough evidence of arson here that an independent congressional investigation of the events of 9/11 is called for, which is the goal of ae911truth.org. Given all of that, within the historical context of the conversation, this organization is very significant. Wowest 04:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given the amount of vandalism this article has attracted, it should be protected at some level. It is, therefore, inappropriate to merge it into another article. Wowest 04:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additional problem: some of the professional members of the Architects and Engineers organization do not wish to have their organization listed on Wikipedia due to the recent publicity given to defense contractors and other similar organizations hiring staffs to manipulate Wikipedia articles. The organization is still formulating a consensus on this issue, however. Other, less flattering, comments regarding Wikipedia were made by another architect in a recent email. If it is deleted, it should be deleted in such a way that it can be re-added in a few months when more "reliable" sources are available, without running into the "speedy delete" problem, which I don't have the foggiest idea how to handle. Wowest 04:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Or, are you disagreeing with my objection? Let me try to edit the POV out.
Wowest 11:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nick mallory: Who deleted your last comment? I was just studying "Playing the Dozens for Dummies," getting ready to respond.... Wowest 21:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's an interesting bit of projection. You start out with an ad hominem argument -- I'm "deranged." So nobody should investigate what I say because if they agree with me, they'll be "deranged" as well?
I "believe in something which runs counter to all the available evidence?" You don't have a clue what I believe. Numerous witnesses, including the president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. report seeing tons of molten metal under all three high-rises at the WTC more than a month after the 9/11 events. There is nothing about that in the OCT report from the 9/11 Commission. There is nothing there about building 7, at all, as a matter of fact.
"All the points you've made have been thoroughly debunked time and again" -- that's false. That's simply what Popular Mechanics claims, but that doesn't make it true. Popular Mechanics attacked a lot of minor points and brought in an irresponsible piece of anti-semitic "art," which has nothing to do with anything. That's called "guilt by association," and it's pretty desperate. When it came to Norman Minetta's testimony, the Popular Mechanics "expert" -- twenty-something Hearst Corporation employee Davin Coburn -- tried to argue that some OTHER plane was "50 miles out." 50 miles out from WHERE? "...and yet you still keep making them" -- that's true. We need a truly independent, possibly international, investigation that looks at ALL of the evidence.
Dr. Steven Jones did the first analysis of the formerly molten metal from the WTC and the first analysis of the black residue in the dust. His analysis has now been validated by several other scientists. It was molten iron which had never been steel.
"Even the kids behind the ludicrous 'loose change' video aren't claiming there was any 'controlled demolition' in their latest version." -- that's false as well. They have decided to focus on WTC-7 as a better use of time in their video. Let's see a recent news item:
Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division Calls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation — By Alan Miller
"James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST's investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.
"'I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable,' explained Dr. Quintiere. "Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another."
Original Content at www.opednews.com August 21, 2007
This isn't a forum. Stop.--P4k 04:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
........ VOTING is UP THERE somewhere. ^ ..............................|
It's already 9/11 on the East Coast ........ Six years ago, I was sitting at my desk when MSNBC popped open a new window on my desktop, interrupting my work. What I saw was truly horrible. People were jumping out of windows, to their death, to avoid being burned to death. As I continued to watch these awful images over the next day or so, I accepted the messages that came with them, uncritically. Fanatical members of some extremist cult had crashed airliners into buildings. I believed every bit of it. I was very sad. Some human beings had grown up in a culture in which someone couldd come along and brainwash them into "dying for Allah." Then, as quickly as they had come, the awful images stopped appearing on television, but the conversation continued. A lot of people were angry. Some fastened American flags on their cars and went speeding up and down business streets as if their violating the law would somehow revenge America's honor. ( When something similar happened in Germany, ending on August 31, 1939, the government announced that the state sponsored terrorism from Poland would end, and the next morning WWII began. We learned about the deception at the Nuremberg trials. The Germans had been attacking themselves nearly thirty times, blaming it on Poland, and their troops rolled into Poland with 2,000 tanks certain that they were defending their country from terrorists. After the war, Americans called the German experience "mass hypnosis.") ......... A few years later, I came across other interpretations of the 9/11 events. I met an older woman who hadn't been hypnotized at all. She saw the buildings fall and thought "so that's why had to steal that election." She may or may not have been correct in her assessment, but it was her own assessment, rather than mindless repetition of something she had heard on television. I woke up. A few things definitely happened on 9/11. A few other things had to have happened as well, but we don't know exactly what they were. ......... A new study came out this week. Liberals and conservatives have brains that work in different ways. Conservatives are more tenacious in their thinking (liberals would call that bull-headedness). Liberals are more flexible (conservatives would call that wishy-washy). Conservatives have less tolerance for ambiguity. Conservatives make more mistakes. (end of study) On the other hand, eighty percent of new businesses in this country fail within five years, usually from lack of capital. Along with that, the average successful businessman has been through four bankruptcies. (end of common knowledge) Some conservative business educators claim that successful people don't change their minds. Some liberals would say that trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, is a sign of insanity. (end of paraphrase) For every proverb there is an equal and opposite proverb. .......... People are different. I take exception to your coming in here and engaging in name-calling because someone disagrees with you. You haven't looked at all the evidence. There are pictures on the ae911truth website which you have never seen. They are NOT on the Popular Mechanics website. They are part of the slide show -- the Powerpoint presentation. Just look at it once, if you have time. .......... This is not supposed to be about whether the organization being discussed is "correct" in its opinions and goals or not. The article is about the organization. It exists. Historically, it is notable. This conversation is supposed to be about the article. Ten to fifteen new architectural and engineering professionals have been joining it every week. As soon as people start watching their new DVD, it will grow geometrically, all over the country. ..........
At the same time, 51 percent of the country already agrees with their goal: there should be a new, independent 9/11 investigation.
I suggest that we keep this conversation open for three months to see how large ae911truth is by then. Deleting it at this point would have the effect of CENSORING something which will be quite large in a few months. Then, what do we do? Claim that we've already reached a consensus when circumstances have changed?
It's 10:31 PM Pacific Time, on September 10th, 2007. Wowest 05:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]