- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Overall consensus was keep, rather than merge. (non-admin closure) Onel5969 TT me 13:24, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Ali al-Asghar ibn Husayn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Subject was related to notable people, but notability is not inherited. Subject took no notable actions of their own, they died well before their first birthday. Edward321 (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and Redirect - It is probably best to delete it and make a redirect to Hosseini infancy conference article. The notability is about the mourning anyway. Despite the fair amount of work put in this, and the genuine cult this boy enjoys, there would not be much left to merge to that other article. Since that other article is so much more reasonable, WP:TNT wins over WP:PRESERVE. Ceosad (talk) 18:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC) - As I have stated below, I changed my vote to Merge. Ceosad (talk) 19:52, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 12:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Ali al-Asghar was important and youngest person who killed in the battle of Karbala and there are several notable sources about him. Therefore, the subject is notable but text of article must rewrite. Please see these books: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Saff V. (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)modified Saff V. (talk) 13:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Let us look at these books and what they say about him:
- 1 Shi'ite Heritage: Essays on Classical and Modern Traditions, edited by L. Clarke This has one mention in passing of the subject on page 379.
- Redemptive Suffering in Islam: A Study of the Devotional Aspects of Ashura, by Mahmoud M. Ayoub Two of the eight pages found by the search are about the death of this child. (The other six are about other people.)
- The History of al-Tabari Vol. 19, translated by I K A Howard. Page 75 mentions the death of an un-named baby son of Husayn ibn Ali. Page 180 lists three sons of Husayn ibn Ali who were present at the battle: two of these were called "Ali" and one was called "Abdullah". The first son called Ali was killed in the battle; his mother was Layla bint Abi Murrah. The second Ali was not killed because he was judged too young to kill; his mother is not listed on page 180. The treatment of this second Ali after his capture is described on pages 169-175. Abdullah was killed in the battle, his mother was Layla bint Abi Murrah.
- Perspectives on Islamic Faith and History: A Collection of Analytical Essays, by Bashir A. Datoo This has 3 references in passing to the child.
- For the Love of Husayn (AS), edited by Muhammad-Reza Fakhr-Rohani. This is a compilation of poems about Husayn ibn Ali and his companions. It is well known that poems on this subject are only loosely based upon the known history of the event. For citations see Battle of Karbala#History distortion. The URL itself is to page 45, which is a list of people who appear in the poems. Page 151 is interesting, because it says that the baby was also known as "Abd Allah". [6] is also a URL to a search for pages in the same book.
- [The Women of Karbala: Ritual Performance and Symbolic Discourses in Modern Shi'i Islam, by Kamran Scot Aghaie]. This has 15 references in passing to the child as one of the victims.
- 5, For the Love of Husayn (AS), edited by Muhammad-Reza Fakhr-Rohani This is the same book as [4].
- -- Toddy1 (talk) 21:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge with Hosseini infancy conference to Ali al-Asghar in popular culture We do not even know this child's name for sure. You might infer from Tabari's history that it was Abdullah; but maybe it was Ali, if Husayn had three sons called Ali. The child, whatever his name was, was killed because his father carried him into battle. How the child died is part of the biography of his notable father Husayn ibn Ali; the child is also part of the list of casualties. Being an unwitting victim of the battle does not make him notable. The one really notable thing about this child is the festival the Iranian government started in 2003 - but there is already a separate article on this: the Hosseini infancy conference.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I completely agree with the statement made by Seyyed at 07:38, 27 November 2015 lower in the page.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually Hosseini infancy conference is a particularly badly named article considering that it can be very easily expanded to include other kinds of events that are held for commemorating Ali al-Asghar's death. Those reliable sources you provided prove that the commemorations are notable events. After reading them I am still not convinced that keeping Ali al-Asghar as a separate article from his commemoration is wise. If I were to expand and rewrite Hosseini infancy conference, I would rename it to something like Commemoration of Ali al-Asghar. Ali al-Ashgar's life as the main focus of the article just doesn't feel plausible without causing issues with the WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Ceosad (talk) 18:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
*Delete (optional merge to Hosseini infancy conference) per Edward321. Poor comprehension on my part. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 15:11, 25 November 2015 (UTC) (This is getting too complicated for me; I have retracted any votes I have cast and opinions I have stated. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 14:37, 5 December 2015 (UTC))[reply]
- The notable topic is not the baby whose name is uncertain. The possibly-notable topic is the combination of folk-lore, the works of fiction, songs, festival, etc. This is why a merge would be a good idea. Perhaps the merged article should be called the Death of Ali al-Asghar ibn Husayn in popular culture.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:13, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Edward321 and Toddy1: I agree that the issue does not have historical notability, but has folklore one. In addition, it is not well known by its current name (i.e. "Ali al-Asghar ibn Husayn"). Thus, I suggest to merge both of them in Ali al-Asghar in popular culture.--Seyyed(t-c) 07:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- I completely agree with the statement made by Seyyed at 07:38, 27 November 2015 lower in the page.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Edward321, Ceosad, Saff V., and Finnusertop: Regarding the above discussion, do you agree to Merge Ali al-Asghar ibn Husayn with Hosseini infancy conference to Ali al-Asghar in popular culture?--Seyyed(t-c) 11:49, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Sa.vakilian: Yes, Merge would be fine, considering that this article has been somewhat rewritten by Toddy1. I am still a bit unsure about that name. Popular culture doesn't seem to be the most fitting name, but merging itself is completely fine. Ceosad (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- @Sa.vakilian: No Saff V. (talk) 07:28, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- And this is another case of disagreement between me and the other Shia editor.--Seyyed(t-c) 19:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Appears to be a widely venerated figure in Islam. That's enough for notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I've added a reliable source (had to search for Ali Asghar rather than Ali al-Asghar) and rewrote some bits an pieces to give it some notability. The article is still far from perfect and I've tagged those issues, but I hope others can help improve the article. PS: to me, the title of the Hosseini infancy conference article sounds weird, as if the UN is having a meeting about toddlers; isn't there a better title? - HyperGaruda (talk) 09:05, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Pinging @Edward321, Ceosad, Toddy1, Finnusertop, and FreeatlastChitchat: to reconsider their !votes. - HyperGaruda (talk) 09:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you HyperGaruda! I would still like to see some kind of merge out here. Keeping this article for now is fine to me. Naming these articles is kind of painful... I mentioned Commemoration of Ali al-Asghar (or Commemoration of Ali Asghar) above as a possible name, and since there is almost certainly no chance for a consensus that supports merging, I think Hosseini infancy conference could be renamed into that at least for now. I would highly prefer a single article though. Ceosad (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.