Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by I dream of horses was:

The proposed article does not have sufficient content to require an article of its own, but it could be merged into the existing article at COVID-19. Since anyone can edit Wikipedia, you are welcome to add that information yourself. Thank you.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "((Db-g7))" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
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I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 06:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, ScrupulousScribe! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 06:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted because it included copyrighted content, which is not permitted on Wikipedia.

This submission appears to be taken from http://www.thebulletin.org/2020/05/natural-spillover-or-research-lab-leak-why-a-credible-investigation-in-needed-to-determine-the-origin-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic,. Wikipedia cannot accept material copied from elsewhere, unless it explicitly and verifiably has been released to the world under a suitably-free and compatible copyright license or into the public domain and is written in an acceptable tone—this includes material that you own the copyright to. You should attribute the content of a draft to outside sources, using citations, but copying and pasting or closely paraphrasing sources is not acceptable. The entire draft should be written using your own words and structure. Note to reviewers: do not leave copyright violations sitting in the page history. Please follow the instructions here.

You are welcome to write an article on the subject, but please do not use copyrighted work.

• Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory may be deleted at any time unless the copied text is removed. Copyrighted work cannot be allowed to remain on Wikipedia.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page. or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Curbon7 (talk) 09:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but you removed a speedy deletion tag from Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, a page you have created yourself. If you believe the page should not be deleted, you may contest the deletion by clicking on the button that says: Contest this speedy deletion which appears inside the speedy deletion notice. This will allow you to make your case on the talk page. Administrators will consider your reasoning before deciding what to do with the page. Thank you.

Hello ScrupulousScribe, and welcome to Wikipedia. Your additions to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the public domain or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a suitably-free and compatible copyright license. (To request such a release, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid copyright and plagiarism issues.

• You can only copy/translate a small amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double quotation marks (") and cite the source using an inline citation. You can read about this at Wikipedia:Non-free content in the sections on "text". See also Help:Referencing for beginners, for how to cite sources here.
• Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information in your own words and structure, in proper paraphrase. Following the source's words too closely can create copyright problems, so it is not permitted here; see Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to verify the information and to demonstrate that the content is not original research.
• We have strict guidelines on the usage of copyrighted images. Fair use images must meet all ten of the non-free content criteria in order to be used in articles, or they will be deleted. All other images must be made available under a free and open license that allows commercial and derivative reuse to be used on Wikipedia.
• If you own the copyright to the source you want to copy or are a legally designated agent, you may be able to license that text so that we can publish it here. Understand, though, that unlike many other sites, where a person can license their content for use there and retain non-free ownership, that is not possible at Wikipedia. Rather, the release of content must be irrevocable, to the world, into the public domain (PD) or under a suitably-free and compatible copyright license. Such a release must be done in a verifiable manner, so that the authority of the person purporting to release the copyright is evidenced. See Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials.
• Also note that Wikipedia articles may not be copied or translated without attribution. If you want to copy or translate from another Wikipedia project or article, you must follow the copyright attribution steps in Wikipedia:Translation#How to translate. See also Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia.

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Victor Schmidt (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit here, I reverted some information that appears to be a violation of our copyright policy.

I provided a brief summary of the problem in the edit summary, which should be visible just below my name. You can also click on the "view history" tab in the article to see the recent history of the article. This should be an edit with my name, and a parenthetical comment explaining why your edit was reverted. If that information is not sufficient to explain the situation, please ask.

I do occasionally make mistakes. We get hundreds of reports of potential copyright violations every week, and sometimes there are false positives, for a variety of reasons. (Perhaps the material was moved from another Wikipedia article, or the material was properly licensed but the license information was not obvious, or the material is in the public domain but I didn't realize it was public domain, and there can be other situations generating a report to our Copy Patrol tool that turn out not to be actual copyright violations.) If you think my edit was mistaken, please politely let me know and I will investigate. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but it seems that your reversion deleted some updates I made to the article. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 14:19, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Tagishsimon was:

declined as copyvio

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "((Db-g7))" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Tagishsimon (talk) 02:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Curb Safe Charmer was:

The proposed article does not have sufficient content to require an article of its own, but it could be merged into the existing article at Misinformation_related_to_the_COVID-19 pandemic#Accidental leakage theories. Since anyone can edit Wikipedia, you are welcome to add that information yourself. Thank you.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "((Db-g7))" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by AngusWOOF was:

The proposed article does not have sufficient content to require an article of its own, but it could be merged into the existing article at Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Since anyone can edit Wikipedia, you are welcome to add that information yourself. Thank you.

 The comment the reviewer left was:

This is still covered by the accidental leak section. It should be discussed on the talk page there if that needs to be split into its own article.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "((Db-g7))" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 16:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm Eyebeller. I noticed that in this edit to Wuhan Institute of Virology, you removed content without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, the removed content has been restored. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Eyebeller 19:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date. You have shown interest in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Due to past disruption in this topic area, the community has enacted a more stringent set of rules. Any administrator may impose sanctions - such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks - on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic. For additional information, please see the guidance on these sanctions. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Template:Z33 Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted text or images from either web sites or printed works. This article appears to contain work copied from https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/coronavirus-lab-leakage-rumors-spreading/, https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4068627, and therefore to constitute a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policies. The copyrighted text has been or will soon be deleted. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with our copyright policy. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators are liable to be blocked from editing.

If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation, or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under license allowed by Wikipedia, then you should do one of the following:

• Have the author release the text under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License (CC BY-SA 3.0) by leaving a message explaining the details at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory and send an email with confirmation of permission to "permissions-en (at) wikimedia (dot) org". Make sure they quote the exact page name, Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, in their email. See Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for instructions.
• If you hold the copyright to the work: send an e-mail from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-enwikimedia.org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation permitting re-use under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License and GNU Free Documentation License, and note that you have done so on Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. See Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for instructions.
• If a note on the original website states that re-use is permitted "under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License (CC-BY-SA), version 3.0", or that the work is released into the public domain, or if you have strong reason to believe it is, leave a note at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory with a link to where we can find that note or your explanation of why you believe the content is free for reuse.

It may also be necessary for the text to be modified to have an encyclopedic tone and to follow Wikipedia article layout. For more information on Wikipedia's policies, see Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

See Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries for a template of the permissions letter the copyright holder is expected to send.

If you would like to begin working on a new version of the article you may do so at this temporary page. Leave a note at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory saying you have done so and an administrator will move the new article into place once the issue is resolved.

Thank you, and please feel welcome to continue contributing to Wikipedia. Happy editing! –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: ((unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~)).  Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You need to listen to what experienced editors tell you about how disputes are resolved at the English Wikipedia. I suggest you read and understand WP:Consensus while you wait for your block to expire. I have also made you aware that special community sanctions apply to the Covid-19 topic area. You need to be additionally aware that disruption to normal processes in any article about Covid-19 will not be tolerated, and any continuation will lead to sanctions that might include a ban from editing Covid-19 articles. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• The sanctions notification I gave you above contains a link to further details, but in case you missed it I will provide it here again - Wikipedia:General sanctions/Coronavirus disease 2019. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

ScrupulousScribe (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

I have been blocked for reverting the deletion of some changes that I made, which cites a number of recent articles in sources that more than satisfy WP:RS, including articles from the BBC, The Times, the National Review and the New Yorker , all of which indicate that scientists are considering an accidental lab leak as a plausible origin theory of the virus. There are other reputable sources citing studies by scientists taking this position, but instead of discussing my contributions and the reliablity of the sources, I have simply been met with a block. This same issue has been brought up by other users on this same page, some of which are archived, with no consensus. Is the job of Wikipedians to decide what a conspiracy theory and what is not? Why were my edits reverted and my account blocked without the subject matter being discussed? ScrupulousScribe (talk) 02:04, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

Your source for medical content is a magazine article in New York (not The New Yorker), written by the guy who wrote the erotic novel House of Holes? I am honestly surprised that you're not topic banned. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the ((unblock)) template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

A couple of comments for User:NinjaRobotPirate and for this user from an observer. It is far from clear that the origin of Covid-19 is Wikipedia:Biomedical information. See The linked page. That said, the above decline is likely correct. Users are expected to refrain from edit warring. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean that, in other words, maybe WP:V applies, not MEDRS? I said so earlier; agree. Using it to censor content sourced to fact-checked articles in reliable sources meets V, which is policy, but admins are willing to block contrary to policy. Fucked up.--50.201.195.170 (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nice draft, why don't you go ahead and create the entry? By the way, I got a notification that you emailed me, but I had an old account registered, so maybe you can try again to resend it, please. Forich (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted text or images from either web sites or printed works. This article appears to contain work copied from https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2020.581569/full, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55364445, and therefore to constitute a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policies. The copyrighted text has been or will soon be deleted. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with our copyright policy. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators are liable to be blocked from editing.

If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation, or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under license allowed by Wikipedia, then you should do one of the following:

• Have the author release the text under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License (CC BY-SA 3.0) by leaving a message explaining the details at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp and send an email with confirmation of permission to "permissions-en (at) wikimedia (dot) org". Make sure they quote the exact page name, Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp, in their email. See Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for instructions.
• If you hold the copyright to the work: send an e-mail from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-enwikimedia.org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation permitting re-use under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License and GNU Free Documentation License, and note that you have done so on Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp. See Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for instructions.
• If a note on the original website states that re-use is permitted "under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License (CC-BY-SA), version 3.0", or that the work is released into the public domain, or if you have strong reason to believe it is, leave a note at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp with a link to where we can find that note or your explanation of why you believe the content is free for reuse.

It may also be necessary for the text to be modified to have an encyclopedic tone and to follow Wikipedia article layout. For more information on Wikipedia's policies, see Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

See Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries for a template of the permissions letter the copyright holder is expected to send.

If you would like to begin working on a new version of the article you may do so at this temporary page. Leave a note at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp saying you have done so and an administrator will move the new article into place once the issue is resolved.

Thank you, and please feel welcome to continue contributing to Wikipedia. Happy editing! –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please stop copy/pasting your old copyvio article into new places on Wikipedia. You're just creating more work for admins who will probably have to go WP:REVDEL all the edits containing copyrighted text. Thank you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you need temporary access, just use archive.fo/qlG0vANDarchive.fo/fU4Tz instead of putting allegedly copyvio stuff back here?

Sad the way they're (I feel) stonewalling any and all attempts to present the evidence provided in reliable sources regarding the source of the virus, as if MEDRS applies to a political discussion. You make good point after good point, but I don't sense good faith when they repeatedly resort to threats and blocks and WP:IDHT when the facts don't support their argument. The situation is so untenable I do hope someone takes the legal action I described as justified, because it should lead to good precedent and/or policy. I wonder if you too are disheartened re. arguing when they hold the cards and can and do cheat regularly and will block one for making a particularly good argument, or still have optimism. I'm pretty fed up.--50.201.195.170 (talk) 14:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

takes the legal action. Legal action against whom? Wikipedia? –Novem Linguae (talk) 16:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp/Temp requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appears to be a direct copy from https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Draft+talk%3ACOVID-19+lab+leak+theory%2FTemp%2FTemp&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&turnitin=0. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Moxy 🍁 17:21, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for violating copyright policy by copying text or images into Wikipedia from another source without evidence of permission. Please take this opportunity to ensure that you understand our copyright policy and our policies regarding how to use non-free content.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: ((unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~)).  Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You have been repeating copyright violations multiple times, despite multiple warnings. This must stop, as it can cause legal problems for Wikipedia. You can be unblocked if you make an unblock request in which you make it clear that you understand Wikipedia's copyright policy and convince a reviewing admin that you will not break it again. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

ScrupulousScribe (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

I worked for a over an hour together with a helpful user on Wikipedia's IRC channel to address copyvio issues with my second draft. When I created my third draft, it was immediately tagged for speedy deletion, and before I had finished browsing through the copyright concerns on the ToolForge page, I was already blocked. How exactly are my supposed to be able to fix copyright issues without a discussion on the exact copyright violations that were flagged? Most of the duplicated content was paraphrased. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 17:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Accept reason:

There's enough uncertainty here for me to unblock, and the discussion below makes it clear you have been trying to avoid copyright violation. I'll comment on the undeletion below. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You are not supposed to create copyright violations in the first place, which means *never* copying content from other places into any Wikipedia page, temporary or otherwise. And if you are having trouble paraphrasing content, the best way to avoid that is to write it in your own words. If you need to make copies of copyrighted content to work on, you must do that elsewhere and not on Wikipedia, and not place any content anywhere on Wikipedia until *after* you are certain it does not violate Wikipedia's copyright policy. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So should I have placed the new version of the text in the second draft? I was under impression that the article was under "investigation" and that the investigator was to approve/disapprove the changes. How do I talk to the "reviewing admin" mentioned in the above block notice? I went over the text with a user in the IRC channel and we made some significant changes. The duplication tool shows me only paraphrased content and a few three word phrases. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 18:18, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not really about where you placed it - copyright violations must not be placed anywhere on Wikipedia. The problem is that the copyright detector tool reports matches of greater than 50% similarity with three sources, and matches of lesser degree with a larger number of others. We would usually expect far less similarity with the sources used for an article. Saying that, and having re-examined the copyright detector report again, I can see that some of the matches are direct quotations, which is not really a problem. I'd like to get a second opinion, so I'd prefer to wait for the next reviewing admin (which is just whoever decides to review your request - we don't know who that will be in advance, but they will read any messages left here for them). If they think the similarity is sufficiently low, I will not object to an unblock and the restore of the draft - if it is undeleted, it (or any new version) should probably go directly in Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory and not in these /temp/temp pages. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The user on the Wikipedia channel pointed out the most problematic parts of the second draft, and said that quoting "titles" is problematic, as the duplication detectors pick up on them, even when they're paraphrased, and admins don't always have the time to sort through everything. I did try remove a few titles and just write about their contents instead, but it's not possible for every media source cited. I'd appreciate if you can undelete it into Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, and if there are any outstanding copyright issues, I will try to resolve them. Thanks. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 18:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've unblocked as above, with apologies if I've fallen for reported close matches that were actually not a problem. I'd still like another admin to check Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp/Temp, and see if they're happy before I restore it. Or anyone else can restore it if I'm not around, as I'll probably be heading off to sleep soon. (Note to self: It's probably better not to engage in things like this when you're not feeling well). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Feel better, thanks. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The help message below should attract an admin for a second opinion. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the ((admin help)) template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

I'd like another admin to review the alleged copyright violation discussed above, at Draft talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory/Temp/Temp, and see if they're happy for it to be restored (to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory). If so, please feel free to do the restore as I might be offline soon, or else I'll check back tomorrow morning. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please can you let me know about this. Thanks. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I only see original writing. AGK ■ 16:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AGK: Thanks for that. @ScrupulousScribe: I have restored it to Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, apologies for the error. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Cambridge Working Group is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Cambridge Working Group until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm not an expert in this field. The previous RaTG13 is also translated from zhwiki.--Htmlzycq (talk) 01:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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I would advise you to make page Origins of Covid-19 instead. This is a more general and perfectly legitimate subject where everything can be described. My very best wishes (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I created Investigations into the origin of COVID-19. I don't think it will be possible to create Origins of Covid-19, we'd have to provide sources for different origin scenarios more definitely, and in accords to WP:MEDRS. Whereas, in Investigations into the origin of COVID-19, we can cite sources relating to different investigations into different origin scenarios, which don't necessarily need to meet the criteria in WP:MEDRS. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 23:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I checked this, but there is a lot more. So, for example, David Relman who is definitely an expert (his opinion was published in PNAS, here) describes three possible scenario of COVID-19 origin, "There are several potential origin scenarios":

1. "First, SARS-CoV-2 may have evolved in bats..."
2. "Second, SARS-CoV-2 or a recent ancestor virus may have been collected by humans from a bat or other animal and then brought to a laboratory where it was stored knowingly or unknowingly, propagated and perhaps manipulated genetically to understand its biological properties, and then released accidentally."
3. "Alternatively, the complete SARS-CoV-2 sequence could have been recovered from a bat sample and viable virus resurrected from a synthetic genome to study it, before that virus accidentally escaped from the laboratory. The third scenario, seemingly much less likely..."

He provides some details and arguments, and tells: "Even though strong opinions abound, none of these scenarios can be confidently ruled in or ruled out with currently available facts. Just because there are no public reports of more immediate, proximal ancestors in natural hosts, doesn’t mean that these ancestors don’t exist in natural hosts or that COVID-19 didn’t began as a spillover event. Nor does it mean that they have not been recovered and studied, or deliberately recombined in a laboratory." And so on. And this is just one of the RS.

Given that, I am not sure how some people on ANI can call scenario #2 and #3 "conspiracy theories", although they are probably not experts in this area (like David Relman). I think this is a very common situation in WP when people think they know something just because they read about it in newspapers. My very best wishes (talk) 01:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the Relman article and its provided as a reference in my draft.

The Problem is that some editors are insisting that MEDRS apply to every single aspect of the lab leak theory, which is now the topic of discussion on the RS noticeboard. I believe MEDRS sources should only be required for substantiating claims like the purported medical benefits of THC, and a MEDRS source should not be required as a reference for how it was first isolated by Raphael Mechoulam in 1964. One is a medical claim, and one is not, and it does not even make sense to say that MEDRS source for the second claim should come before a regular RS source.

The problem that we have is that there are certain zealous editors who either haven't read anything about the lab leak theory, or they have and favour a contrarian POV, which they are pushing with sources which they claim MEDRS, which upon analysis, are very weak. Most of the established MEDRS sources taking the contraian view (such as Anderson et al and Baric et al), state quite clearly that it is impossible to disprove the notion. Yet these MEDRS sources are conveniently discarded as not WP:BESTSOURCES. It is clear that some editors are very strongly biased on the issue and will go to any length to bend WP policy to support their view.

ScrupulousScribe (talk) 02:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This whole thing is mostly a political controversy including denials, information blackout and sanctions by China, claims by US State department, etc. I wonder how anyone can require WP:MEDRS to source claims by politicians or even claims/views by experts who talked a lot about it to journalists. This is absolutely ridiculous. My very best wishes (talk) 03:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have been exploring the option of requesting a dispute resolution, as I believe there are certain editors who are not acting in good faith. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Asking for a dispute resolution or starting an WP:RFC is a possibility, but you should never accuse others of bad faith or of anything at all - WP:NPA (that will only get you blocked). My very best wishes (talk) 04:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just find it extremally difficult to believe that certain editors are acting in good faith when they rubbish the lab leak theory with derisive language, claim I am just fishing for sources to support my "fringe" POV, and insinuate that other editors sharing my POV must be socks of mine. They have chased off numerous other editors who have brought up NPOV issues on the two pages, going all the way back to February. Now that the USDOS made a statement, they simply put it down to Trumpism. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 04:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right now there is no any real evidence that the virus was leaked from the lab. This is only a possibility. i.e. pure speculation (if there were multiple RS, such as books, which positively claim it was leaked, that would be a different story). Therefore, a number of contributors say what they say on the ANI, and you are likely to be topic banned. I voted "oppose" on the ANI because this is a notable controversy that deserves a separate page or pages (ones that you created), and I think your "opponents" are clearly acting against WP:NPOV by excluding views by academics and others that should be included. My very best wishes (talk) 15:10, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been following this too closely, but from what I've seen, there's something very interesting going on with this topic. At this rate a Streisand effect could kick in.Park3r (talk) 05:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't let the 1% effect kick in, and please do make your views known, also here. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 05:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did my best, but I suspect we'll get an "Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia" rewriting of history if the political winds make the lab escape hypothesis more palatable (a similar thing happened with masks, where "experts" did a 180 without blinking), and the controversy will disappear. For now, I'll stay away from Covid-related topics, where policies have seemingly been stretched and twisted in unrecognisable ways.Park3r (talk) 04:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A page you created has been nominated for deletion because it is a biography of a living person that is entirely negative in tone and has unsourced content, according to section G10 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

Do not create articles about living people that are entirely negative in tone and unsourced. Wikipedia has a policy of verifiability and any negative information we use must be reliably sourced, and our articles must be balanced. Negative, unreferenced biographies of living people, along with attack pages, are not tolerated by Wikipedia, and users who create or repost such pages and images in violation of our biographies of living persons policy may be blocked from editing. Thucydides411 (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure why think it is written in a negative tone? ScrupulousScribe (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about tone. It's about creating a page devoted to an evidence-free conspiracy theory targeting a private living person. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Huang Yanling is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Huang Yanling until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

RexxS (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following sanction has been imposed on you:

You are now banned from writing about the Covid-19 lab leak theory, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and anyone directly associated with the Institute, on any Wikipedia page (with the exceptions outlined below) for three months from the date of this message.

I've been trying to hold off from this for some time, but unfortunately I think we really do need to take some firm action now. Since you registered your account, you have done nothing other than write about the Covid-19 lab leak theory. You have done so in great volume and great detail, to the extent of creating articles putting great emphasis on relatively minor details. That is increasingly violating Wikipedia's WP:UNDUE policy.

Further, you have not been trying to treat the subject according to Wikipedia's WP:NPOV and WP:RS policies. Instead, you appear to have been seeking out and using sources that explicitly support the lab leak theory, no matter how low quality they are, and not seeking to present the required balance of reliable sources. In short, rather than trying to present an encyclopedic treatment of the origin of Covid-19, you have been incessantly trying to promote the lab leak theory.

Your creation of the Huang Yanling article is the last straw. It is based, as far as I and those commenting at the AFD can see, on no reliable sources testifying to notability. Instead, it is using a host of unreliable sources, including rumours and blogging claims, to pin a theory on a named individual with no evidence whatsoever that they are involved. Your arguments at the AFD for that article show that you still fail to understand the problems with your contributions and the community's objections.

Discussions of your contributions have also ended up consuming large amounts of other editors' time, which is a precious resource that they voluntarily contribute. These levels of disruption need to stop.

I think I have no option but to impose a topic ban, but I am going to make it very specific. I will not ban you from writing about Covid-19 in general, and I will not make the ban indefinite (both of which I think are where the ANI discussion is trending). Instead, you are now banned specifically from writing about the Covid-19 lab leak theory, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and anyone directly associated with the Institute. The ban extends to all pages on Wikipedia, with the exception of any discussion about your editing on the WP:AN and WP:ANI boards, and the Huang Yanling AFD that is currently in progress.

The ban is for three months from today. This will hopefully give you time to take note of what experienced editors and administrators have been saying, and to get a proper feel for the way Wikipedia editors should approach this subject area.

You can still contribute to other areas of Wikipedia's Covid-19 coverage (unless the current ANI discussion should result in any further restrictions), but I would urge you to take some lessons from your experiences so far and apply them carefully if you decide to do that. And when the current ban expires, please be very careful of your approach to coverage of the lab leak theory particularly.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator as authorised by the community's decision at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Coronavirus disease 2019, and the procedure described by the general sanctions guidelines. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions for that decision. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction at the administrators' noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Boing! said Zebedee, thanks for the thoughtful note. I understand that I may have made mistakes, and creating the article on Huang Yanling may have been one of those mistakes, however, I object to the wording of "no reliable sources" in your note above, as I was very careful to curate a number of articles from what I thought were reliable sources, including NZ Herald, Deutsche Welle, The Jerusalem Post, United Press International, and Forbes, as well as an official counter statement by Xinhua News Agency, the official state-run press agency of the PRC. The section of the article that cited these sources was deleted by RexxS in a move that was puzzling to me, as he also nominated the article for deletion based on a lack of reliable sources, and there is an ongoing discussion on that in my talk. In case you didn't see it, you can find my comment and the reliable sources provided on AFD discussion page which I struck out (perhaps using the wrong strikethrough script), as I was initially persuaded by RexxS that they aren't sufficient for WP:BLP.

I would like to appeal the topic ban, as the discussion on the exact applicability of WP:MEDRS to this issue has yet to reach a consensus, and I feel that there are a select number of editors who (as DGG and Atsme noted in the ANI) may be emboldened by a topic ban on me to continue skirting the issue, and spur them on to accuse other editors of "conspiracy theory" mongering as they have with me, and persist to push their POV, just as they accused me of doing. I first started the conversation on spinning off the lab leak theory from the "Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic" page so that it can be treated from a neutral point of view on Jan 5th, where some editors agreed with me, but in response to opposing editors who objected to it on grounds of WP:MEDRS, I pointed out that the unknown origins of virus does not constitute Wikipedia:Biomedical information, and this discussion was escalated to the WP:RS noticeboard (presented in a misleading way, citing only one of the many RSs that I had provided), where a number of previously uninvolved editors including Park3r, JPxG, Geogene, My very best wishes, Guest2625, and Normchou agreed with my position that MEDRS should not apply here. I would like to point out to you that editors Thucydides411, Alexbrn, XOR'easter and Hemiauchenia, who have been pushing hard for the lab leak to be labeled as "misinformation" and "conspiracy theory" on Wikipedia, have all completely ignored Forich's summary of the debate that has been going on for the past few weeks across numerous pages, and now Alexbrn is saying (in the ANI) that he is "losing interest" in the topic.

Furthermore, I outright object to the accusation that I have been "seeking out" low-quality sources and misrepresenting them to support the POV that the lab leak cannot be considered misinformation and a conspiracy theory (unless that was in reference to the Huang Yanling article), and for the relevant content changes to be made accordingly (that is based on an accusation first made by Alex of "fringe types" and "possible socks" who are "casting around" for sources, which was an entirely unfounded allegation and which was picked up by other editors). When I first started the discussion on the Talk page of the Wuhan Insititute of Technology, seeking to make content pages to better reflect NPOV, you replied saying I should provide sources, and I provided numerous sources in that thread, including The BBC, The Times, Le Monde, Presadiretta, Bloomberg, The Telegraph, and The Washington Post, among others. The discussion of a lab leak as a possible origin scenario of Covid-19 on Wikipedia goes all the way back to February, and possibly earlier, and users Thucydides411, Alexbrn and Hemiauchenia have always been at the forefront of quelling the inclusion of such a notion on Wikipedia, and XOR'easter gives very odd reasoning for his views as to why MEDRS applies, which are not consistent with Wikipedia policy. Forich, started an FRC on the matter back in May, which resulted in the consensus that until new RSs are produced to indicate that the lab leak is being considered as a plausible possibility, there was nothing more to discuss. The new RSs that I provided, starting with the Boston Magazine from September, and the flurry of media reports from November and December (such as the BBC, etc), brought up new information that mandated further discussion, and for a new consensus to be reached. While I may have come across to some as "overzealous" in my approach (which may very well be true), Forich has been anything but patient and understanding, and while I very much admire his diplomatic approach, I think that in the face of such unrelenting opposition from editors like Hemiauchenia (who first dropped in the conversation only to discount my sources for no good reason, and then again to announce that he has slain others with my POV, and subsequently proposed to topic ban me and Dinglelingy), I don't think he is going to get very far. I also made a personal appeal to Alex to do away with the snide remarks and consider my POV, and my argument against MEDRS applying here, but his intransigence has remained a problem, even after the US government made an official statement on its view on the possibility of a lab leak as an origin scenario. The USDOS statement on its own doesn't reveal any new information, and the Telegraph article that constitutes a secondary source on the statement, represented just one of numerous reliable sources indicating that there is a controversy surrounding the Wuhan Institute of Virology as a possible site of a laboratory accident.

While I understand that you are not involved in the subject of our discussion, I would like for you as an admin, or another impartial admin to look at the conversations that have been taking place on this issue in their entirety, and investigate the conduct of the abovementioned editors as per WP:GAME. The MEDRS source that Alexbrn has found (which in my view was selected to support his POV) and "benevolently interpreted" (Forich's words) is absolutely unacceptable in the context of claiming that the lab leak theory can be considered as "misinformation" and "conspiracy theory" in the "Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic and Wuhan Institute of Virology articles, and it is equally unacceptable to support the POV that there is a scientific consensus on the "mechanism of transmission" as preseented in the "Origins" section of the Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 article (and conradicts the scientific consensus that no origin scenario has been determined). There is an ongoing discussion on the Talk page of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, as to what sources may be considered MEDRS, and there is no clear consensus in that discussion as to whether that MEDRS source can support such a claim, even though we don't beleive MEDRS sources are required in the wider discussion of Covid-19 origins. While I may be a new user here, I have edited Wikipedia extensively over many years, and I have faith in the project to upholds its core principles and I have faith in you as admin to implement its policies effectively. I am also willing to confide that I may have made mistakes and correct my own behavior and conduct.

ScrupulousScribe (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given that I was tagged, I'll add my two cents. I would recommend disengaging. In its current state, a fair-minded reader is unlikely to regard Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology as encyclopedic, given its strident tone, and there has been very little editing activity to actually improve the article itself. There's also an NPOV tag on the most controversial section to alert readers. In my mind, the biggest risk posed by potentially misleading content on Wikipedia is when it is the only source of aggregated or summarised information on a topic. In the case of Covid-19, that's plainly not the case (it is unfortunate the Google uses the Wikipedia excerpt though). Therefore temporarily abandoning this particular corner of Wikipedia and moving on to other topic areas is probably more useful than fighting this battle. But that's just my opinion.Park3r (talk) 23:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and given that I also have been mentioned above, I give the same advice. In my opinion your view of the underlying matter is not necessarily incorrect. There is however nothing to be gained at this point by your continuing it. If the matter is to be continued it should be with others. I may take an unusually cautious view of this, but I do not not edit here persistently on any thing pertaining to an article to the point where I become emotionally involved, or think that the expression of the true state of affairs depends on me personally. (That even does imply that in some topics about which I very deeply care, I do not edit at all except on technical matters or on isolated issues. I think in such matters that while I have the ability to edit NPOV, trying to do so against opposition would be too emotionally taxing. I prefer to work where my work is appreciated. Even on matters not concerning an article topic directly but about Wikipedia , a project about which I have certainly become emotionally involved, I limit my participation in any one question, though I may come back to it later. The truth does not depend on me. Neither does WP . In particular, if I had been in a situation where a sanction such as this would have been applied to me, I would have waited at least a few days before appealing or replying. DGG ( talk ) 23:44, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand the above: I rarely edit articles in relation to computer science (my field; when I redid my user page I also deleted some related text that I later evaluated to be rants). But in this case, more importantly, except as part of the appeal itself (that should also use another approach than insisting that the problem are other editors), the topic should really be dropped, or eventual sanctions for violating the topic ban are possible. —PaleoNeonate – 01:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Boing! said Zebedee: Are these violations of ScrupulousScribe's topic ban? [1] (adding primary-sourced info about the US investigation into the lab-leak hypothesis) [2] (adding a link to an article that discusses the lab-leak hypothesis). In addition to these article-space edits, ScrupulousScribe continues to edit talk pages of Draft:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory and Investigations_into_the_origin_of_COVID-19. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:16, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thucydides411 You removed an important statement from a US government office about an investigation in a section named "US government investigations", which makes no mention of the lab leak theory. You also removed other contents which has been restored by Normchou, despite repeated requests not to do so. My edits to the talk page in my draft was to ask Boing! said Zebedee to delete the article, which like the edits mentioned above were not made with the intention of contravening my topic ban. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 15:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The material you added was about "US government investigations" into the lab-leak hypothesis. That's also largely what the article, Investigations into the origin of COVID-19, is about. Additionally, the source you added to the article with this diff discusses the lab-leak hypothesis. It doesn't matter if you disagree with my edits and think they should be reverted. You shouldn't be editing anything closely related to the SARS-CoV-2 lab-leak hypothesis at all. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:48, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Boing! said Zebedee will read the material you removed which I restored, and determine whether it does indeed relate to the "lab-leak hypethesis", as you claim. The article Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 is not supposed to be about the lab leak hypothesis, and it is you that turned it into that, dedicating the first paragraph of a section about "US government investigations" to the topic, instead of actual US government investigations. The OST letter to NASEM, which you removed and I restored, is the first US gov statement on a US government investigation, and should be the first item in the list. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 15:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

it is you that turned it into that: How on Earth can you possibly claim that I turned the article into one about the lab-leak hypothesis? This is what the article looked like before I made a single edit to it: [3]. I've been arguing that the article should instead focus on the scientific investigations into the origins, rather than the conspiracy theories. You're continuing to edit an article that is largely focused on the lab-leak hypothesis, which is why I'm asking Boing to weigh in. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As Normchou told you, you can add content to better reflect NPOV, but not delete content, and certainly not content as important as the US Government's first official communique on conducting an investigation (in a section titled "US government investigations"). If you are concerned with the primary source, you can find a secondary source to add, of which there are plenty. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Folks, I'm having a weak health day today so I'm not able to really do anything right now. But I will get back to this quickly. In the meantime, ScrupulousScribe, I can see how the material being questioned here might be ambiguous regarding the topic ban. I can't really examine it in any detail right now, but I'd recommend you keep away from anything relating to the origins of Covid-19 at least until I'm able to review this appeal. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will take DGG's advice and just take a break from editing anything remotely related to the subject of the topic ban. I wanted to type up a "yes, but" reply to DGG about how compelled I feel to uphold the neutrality of the subject on various article, but then I read Heimstern's essay on how Wikipedia sucks sometimes, and some of his other posts also provided me with some insights into the admin perspective on if/how to adjudicate content disputes (here]). ScrupulousScribe (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is indeed the best way to handle a topic ban. Pretend it is broader than it actually is. Avoid areas of conflict that are related to the ban, and even users you repeatedly tangled with. Just find something completely different. Good luck. Adoring nanny (talk) 04:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If it's any help, ScrupulousScribe, the job of a Wikipedia editor is determine the quality of a source, but not to analyse its conclusions. No source is reliable, per se, but is either reliable or not for supporting particular content in a particular article. I recommend the strategies outlined at WP:MEDASSESS, which are aimed at medical information, but expound principles that are applicable to any considerations for sourcing in our articles. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 01:09, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Thanks for the note. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 01:11, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi RexxS, is there a provision in WP:RS applying especially to WP:BLP a to how reliable sources can be discounted based on their sourcing? In the particular case we dealt with yesterday, the subject lived in a country without much of a free press, so in reporting on the subject, the foreign press (such as UPI) obviously had to report on it as a "rumor". Why should this disqualify the notability of the subject? I have looked at Category Chinese:prisoners and detainees and I found this reporting style to be very common. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 17:41, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It all ends up as a matter of judgement whether a particular source is reliable, and then whether or not a much higher quality source is available. Notability in a BLP is a fairly high bar, and we tend to err on the side of not having an article when the subject is an otherwise unremarkable person, apart from one event. Usually we would follow WP:BLP1E and perhaps use the sources (if they are found reliable) to expand an article on the event for which the individual received press coverage. Using Chinese sources is not easy, partly because of inexact translations, but mainly because of the censorship and influence of the authorities, as you observed. Generally, a clearly notable subject will have coverage in Western sources as well as Chinese sources, and that means we don't have to use the Chinese ones. The effect of that is to skew our coverage towards Western subjects – that is recognised – but that is always going to be a consequence of working with Asian sources. If you think Chinese coverage causes difficulties, you should see the problems we get with Indian caste articles. --RexxS (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've been intending to try to help you with a way forward, but it's been difficult for me to work out how to explain the problems without exaggerating the issues and without making it sound like I'm making unfair accusations. So let me talk in hypotheticals instead...

In real life, there's a common way in which people approach discussions of controversial claims. Someone who supports the claim will say so and present their evidence. Then someone who opposes it will provide their evidence. And the argument will go back and forth. If you're inexperienced on Wikipedia, it might seem intuitive that that's an appropriate way to approach controversial topics here. So you might, for example, gather sources that support something you believe (or suspect) is true and add it all to a Wikipedia article (or create a new article). Then you might expect those who disagree with you to add their own content and their own sources supporting the opposite view. And so, the article develops through a back-and-forth process in the same way arguments play out in real life. In other words, an editor might think "I believe X is true, so I'll add the case for it to a Wikipedia article, and we can take it from there". But that is not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. The ideal Wikipedia approach is to start with an open mind and think "This is an interesting controversy, so I'll see what sources I can find, and I'll present a balanced treatment of those sources".

In my long-winded way, I'm getting to the concept of reliable sources (in the way Wikipedia defines it) and how to use them. It's explained at WP:RS, which you can read for yourself. But there's a point I want to make specifically about Covid-19. There's a huge amount of writing about Covid-19 out there that is simply not appropriate as sources for Wikipedia. That includes a lot of social media, blogs, opinion pieces, editorials, etc. It also includes primary sources, which are also inapplicable (see WP:PRIMARY for more). A Wikipedia editor is expected to evaluate the sources they use in accordance with WP:RS and determine their suitability. Though, as RexxS says above, an editor must not do their own analysis of the actual content and use their own conclusions - that's explained at WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, which are policy pages every new editor should read. And then, having identified reliable sources, an editor is expected to present a balanced view of those sources. Now, here's where people often fall down. Wikipedia does not carry equal coverage of both sides of a controversy and does not give both sides equal say. No, Wikipedia strives to reflect the balance that already exists in reliable sources. So, for example, if the balance of reliable sources says the Earth is round (well, an oblate spheroid), we don't give flat-Earthers equal say. Sure, we carry content about flat Earth claims, but we make it clear that it is scientifically rejected. (I know the lab leak controversy is nowhere near as clear cut, I'm just using something extreme as an example).

Before I move on further, I'll also point out that reliable sourcing is especially important when writing about living persons, and WP:BLP is essential reading. The key is that we're writing about actual people living real lives, who could come to actual harm should Wikipedia carry controversial claims about them based on less than impeccable sources.

Right, where do we go from here? Firstly, I'm not trying to assume any of the above thinking lay behind your edits here - it's just a generalisation from many similar problems I've seen over the years. But I do have to say that, to me and to a good few other editors, you appeared to be trying to push the lab leak theory rather than provide a balanced presentation of what reliable sources say about it. And that led to all sorts of arguments, admittedly with some pushback that might well have been excessive.

In setting your topic ban, I did not specify any minimum time to wait before you can appeal it (as often happens). In fact, I'm open to an appeal any time you believe you understand the problems and can make a convincing case that you understand how to go forward in line with Wikipedia policies. You could appeal directly to me - you're welcome to do so here on this talk page, as I will keep it watched. You could also appeal at WP:AN and the community would make a decision by consensus. If you appeal to me, I'd need to be convinced that you understand what I've been saying here. Ideally, I'd also like to see you do some work in less controversial topics so I can see how you can handle reliable sources - it's rarely a good idea for a newcomer to dive right into controversial topics. (As an aside, I know there has been some disagreement regarding plain RS sources, scientific sources, and MEDRS sources - in my experience, RexxS always seems to have the best advice on that, and I'm sure he would help.)

Anyway, I'll stop there for now (for fear of wearing out my keyboard and your patience). I'd love to hear what you think. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't see this till after I wrote a reply to your previous note, as I stepped away from the computer for an errand and posted it when I come back. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 22:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts. As someone who has "lurked" a lot on Wikipedia and observed disputes around controversial issues, relating to climate warming, Israel/Palestine and the Xinjiang re-education camps, I've read up a lot on Wikipedia Policy and Guidelines. Since I created this account to take up the issue of the lab leak, I've read up again on a lot of these policies and guidelines, so I have a good basic understanding of, but I agree that I need to read up on them more in order to become a better contributor and avoid any disputes.

Without denying my own shortcoming, I believe that there is a problem with a small number of editors with a certain POV relating to the lab leak theory, who have pushed their POV on related Wikipedia pages which isn't consistent with the new information that has arisen. Without boring you with too many details, an addendum made on the 17th of November 2020 by Shi Zhengli to a paper she had sent to Nature earlier in February, relating to the timing and sequencing of RaTG13, confirming that it was one and the same with a virus known as BtCoV/4991, which places the nearest relative of COVID-SARS-2 at a mineshaft in Mojiang where miners were known to have died from a SARS-like coronavirus in 2013. The addendum was made after many months of increasing calls from scientists for her to clarify details of the paper relating to RaTG13 (which you can read about here), and some scientists even called on her to retract her paper, or have Nature magazine append a cautionary note to it. This was a big deal in the scientific community, which was covered in the BBC and Le Monde in December (and other later sources), which seriously called into question the provenance of RaTG13, and the possibility of an accidental leak of a SARS-like coronavirus undergoing gain of function studies at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) (which is legitimate research they were known to be doing and is even reflected accordingly in the Wikipedia article on the WIV).

When I brought up these new reliable sources which reported this new information, I was expecting for there to be some pushback from editors with contrarian views, but I did not quite expect editors to game Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Like I said above, I believe there are a select number of editors with a POV, who have engaged in a process of selectively sourcing MEDRS that supports their POV, while attacking the credibility of the authors of the sources I provided, and even my credibility as an editor. What ensued was a discussion across a number of pages that lacked the congeniality that this discussion deserves, and it is possible that I may have made mistakes too, in my choice of words, or how many words I wrote. But like JPxG pointed out in the ANI, it is to be expected that I argued "repeatedly" in the face of contrarian editors making "broadly similar points". If you look through the conversation on the WIV talk page, you will see a contrarian editor called CowHouse who agreed with me and Dinglelingy that there was in uneven application of the MEDRS policy and that without MEDRS sources clearly indicating that the lab leak is considered a conspiracy theory, the claims should be removed from the page. Were the discussion to have ended there and focused instead on making the necessary content changes, all would have been good, but instead, the discussion continued and got derailed with several trivial matters (accusations of sockpuppetry and the such), but also the important discussion on whether MEDRS is applicable as a policy (which has been given serious consideration by those contrarian editors). Throughout this time, despite no consensus on the matter, the claims remain in the page. It's no surprise CowHouse and Dinglelingy disengaged from the conversation.

Going forward, I would like to appeal directly to you fo the removal of the topic ban, and I will also commit to changing my conduct anyhow needed, but I would also like to ask you to give attention to the concerns that I and now others have brought up with contrarian editors claiming to represent a neutral point of view, when they clearly do not. More importantly, I would like to be able to discuss with you, or another uninvolved admin as to the exact content changes that need to be made to Wikipedia, until the discussion on applicability of policies such as MEDRS reaches a consensus.

ScrupulousScribe (talk) 23:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For whatever it is worth, I would like the topic ban to remain in place. The mission of Wikipedia's community is to write a neutral, impartial encyclopedia. From decades of experience, we know that mission breaks down after giving free rein to contributors who are not able to write from a neutral perspective. Topic bans rarely have the effect of equipping somebody to write in such a way, and I see no evidence that the lesson has been learned here either. ScrupulousScrib has not spent very long at all under the topic ban and has gained no experience in unrelated parts of the encyclopedia. In my view, unbanning will lead to more of the same. Boing, this was a good ban. AGK ■ 10:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the real way forward

As advice, the topic ban is much more likely to be removed if it's clear that you will disengage from the subject by yourself. I think it possible that you still do not realize that being in the right in an issue is not relevant to consensus about the issue at Wikipedia. We are not able to judge the truth of something, and we should not try (we do not try even when some of us happen to have relevant expertise). Trying to get an article right by discussing at the talk page is sometimes helpful , but it tends to become arguments of limited usefulness when there are knowledgable opponents who also think they are also right.

My personal rule is to make 2 or at the most 3 tries, and then leave it to others, for if I have not convinced people by then, I am not likely to. But even so, I don't aim at convincing my opponents, which is rarely successful, but at trying to convince people new to the topic. This requires a certain degree of detachment in making the argument so it will seem reasonable to them, instead of being an extended back-and-forth that gets more and more difficult for newcomers to follow. Viewed a little more cynically, it is necessary to be very careful that your opponents, not yourself, willl appear to be the less reasonable and the more dogmatic. The more one concentrates on an issue, the harder this is to do.

Always remember two things: you are unlikely to be the only one who cares, and, on topics like this, knowledge is not complete, and will almost certainly be clearer later. If one's position is indeed correct, it will sooner or later be realized more generally. At least, that's what people believe who trust in the superiority of discussion and argument and logic and knowledge.

The real rationale of topic bans like this is not so you can return to the argument in three months, but that the separation will be long enough that you will turn permanently to other issues. DGG ( talk ) 17:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your advice on this matter. I read it twice, and it rang very true, not only pertaining to the issues at hand, but on managing relationships and sharing knowledge in the general. I have a more Talmudic background in debate, which seems to run quite contrary to how discourse works on Wikipedia, for the better or worse. I will read your advice again over the weekend. Thanks again. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 17:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you sense me smiling, ScurpulousScribe? DGG has given you good advice. He is an excellent mentor and a highly respected/trusted admin on WP (former arbitrator). I was also happy to see Boing take an interest in guiding you toward the right path with your future editing, (I hope Boing will feel better soon). You're in good hands, SS - take advantage of it, and above all, remember not to mention or even think about anything related to your t-ban. I speak from experience, having had an indef AP2 t-ban (my very first t-ban with no logged warnings prior to the action), long since successfully appealed, but I am now under another t-ban which I will not/cannot discuss because I'm t-banned from that topic - the point being to help you be more aware of the limitations while you're subject to a t-ban. When tensions rise, I resort to humor, so if you'll look in the right margin of my user page, you'll see an image related to t-bans...all in fun. On my talk page it's all fun, but it can't hold a candle to The Museum. Enjoy! There are lots of projects that need good editors - especially copy editors. Our community is actually quite fun and welcoming for the most part. Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 20:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo, I've just Stub-sorted Martin Kulldorff. Thanks for this contribution, but there are a few little points to make

• ((stub)) goes at the bottom not the top (per WP:ORDER). Putting it in the right place saves work for a stub-sorting editor, especially if they're working on a mobile phone and can only edit one section at a time so have to first remove the tag from the wrong place, then in another edit put the detailed stub tag in the right place.
• Wikipedia doesn't use slanted quote marks as you did in " “focused protection” " - I've changed them to straight quotes
• Please expand refs rather than leaving bare URLs
• You added Category:Living people: for a few more keystrokes you could also add the sort key which makes him file under "K" rather than "M": Standard boilerplate message coming up ...

There is a very easy way to add the DEFAULTSORT (so the article files by surname in lists), and Category:Living people where appropriate, and any birth or death date category: ((subst:L|1882|1984|Brown, Annie)) would create ((DEFAULTSORT:Brown, Annie)), Category:1882 births and Category:1984 deaths, while ((subst:L|||Smith, Jane)) would create ((DEFAULTSORT:Smith, Jane)), Category:Living people and Category:Date of birth missing (living people). Lack of death date implies "living" (or you can add "unknown" or "missing" as the death date to suppress this). You get a lot done for a few keystrokes: I think it's a great little template.

(In short, ((subst:L|||Kulldorf, Martin)) would have worked well here.)

There's a lot to learn about editing Wikipedia but it's an interesting journey. Happy Editing. PamD 08:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the pointers. What is the syntax for expanding refs? ScrupulousScribe (talk) 08:37, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are several templates: ((Cite web)), ((cite journal)), ((cite news)), ((cite book)) etc. In the editing interface I use, there's a "cite" button in the edit bar which leads to a dropdown menu "templates" from which I can pick one, and if I then input the doi, URL or, for a book, the ISBN and click the little magnifying-glass icon alongside it usually makes a good stab at expanding the ref, though needs to be checked (especially for web or book). See Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/3. If you use Visual Editor ... I can't help, as I tried it and gave up years ago. PamD 09:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A page you created has been nominated for deletion as an attack page, according to section G10 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

Do not create pages that attack, threaten, or disparage their subject or any other entity. Attack pages and files are not tolerated by Wikipedia, and users who create or add such material may be blocked from editing. QueerEcofeminist[they/them/their] 03:38, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Please note that I am submitting a report at WP:AE. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 05:29, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]