![]() | This is the talk page of a redirect that targets the page: • Cornelis Tiele Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Cornelis Tiele |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 14 January 2018. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
I have changed the source now to more reliable source. Also , article for the opposite of Universalizing Religion ie Ethnic Religion exists, so the article for Universalizing Religion also should exist.
Hinduism is a notable exception , being a major world religion, but not being Universalizing Religion. See [Ethnic religion] for details. Hinduism is a notable exception , being a Universalizing Religion but not being Major World Religion. See [Ethnic religion] for details.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Realphi (talk • contribs) 21:36, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
I have two concerns with this claim. First, secular humanism isn't identified as a religion in its article. Second, per said article, it looks like secular humanism dates to 1851, and there are at least two non-ethnic religions—Satanism and Pastafarianism—that are newer than that. (And that assumes that neo-Paganism keeps its status as an ethnic religion.) So, on what source are relying to say that SH is the newest universalizing religion? —C.Fred (talk) 01:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that says SH is the newest universalizing religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Realphi (talk • contribs) 03:51, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
The case has been made, but of course (a) the statement needs to be decently attributed and (b) it will be enough to put the referenced statement on the secular humanism page, there is no need to create a separate page just for this item. --dab (𒁳) 07:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
At least one of these is already cited, but here are the sources I'd use if someone put a gun to my head and said "write this article right now":
These are not necessarily the best sources, but they define the term. It is used so casually in some academic works that it gives the impression that the word is standard in religious studies. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:25, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Added the sources. Realphi —Preceding undated comment added 03:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
It is not useful to create "one page per synonym". By all means improve our coverage of religious proselytism, but please do so at existing pages instead of building another WP:CFORK.
"Universalizing religion" is a religion which proposes active proselytism, potentially of the entire universe. It is "universal" in the sense that it has to be transferred to the context of foreign cultures, i.e. to potentially any culture. This is different from but related to the term "universalism", which is one strategy of being "universalizing" (i.e. absorb any possible pre-existing religion into your framework as a matter of principle, or phrased more negatively, water everything down to the point where all religions are the same anyway). It is not synonymous with "universalism", but the two concepts are by their nature closely related. There is no need to create a new page to point this out, there are articles about proselytism and universalism in dire need of attention, please use your research to improve those. --dab (𒁳) 12:12, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
This article seems to be young and is also a deletion candidate, meaning it should only be freely linked after all discussions regarding its validity are suitablly concluded. However, I've recently noticed "Universalizing" has newly been inserted in the first lines of some religious articles such as Christianity and Buddhism, for example "Christianity is a Universalizing Abrahamic monotheistic religion". I'm not going on a mass-undo spree, but I'd council anyone looking to use this term to acknowledge it currently appears to have a slightly contentious nature. Additionally, assuming the term is accepted, I believe the correct format would be a lowercase "u", as in "universalizing". Apologies and thanks. Thrif (talk) 02:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As part of this recent AfD discussion, merging to Cornelis Tiele was proposed. This discussion is to assess if this should be done. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 17:34, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Realphi (talk) 20:21, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
By that logic, Ethnic religion article should be merged with the person who coined that term. Realphi (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
universalistic religion = universalizing religion = "universal religion 'in old sense' " Realphi (talk) 23:45, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
This quote from Vivekananda proves that universalistic religion = universalizing religion = "universal religion 'in old sense' "
" You hear claims made by every religion as being the universal religion of the world. Let me tell you in the first place that perhaps there never will be such a thing, but if there is a religion which can lay claim to be that, it is only our religion and no other, because every other religion depends on some person or persons. All the other religions have been built round the life of what they think a historical man; and what they think the strength of religion is really the weakness, for disprove the historicity of the man and the whole fabric tumbles to the ground. Half the lives of these great founders of religions have been broken into pieces and the other half doubted very seriously. As such every truth that had its sanction only in their words vanishes into air. But the truths of our religion, although we have person by the score, do not depend on them. "
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/swami-vivekananda-on-universal-religion
Realphi (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
@Realphi: Concerning page views (again), this is very clearly an example of the page being seen by an increased number of persons as a result of the AfD nomination - views prior to the article expansion by you are very insignificant. A quick look at the page views tool confirms that there is no statistically significant impact of the removal on the number of page views of the article it was redirecting to - one can conclude that this term isn't very popular... Therefore, in simple terms, your argument is both insufficient and incorrect. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:07, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
This book from Cornelis Tiele uses the WORD "Universal religion" for the same definition. So, this proves "universalistic religion" = "universal religion". See how Tiele defines "universal religion" so casually. That means word was very much in use before Cornelis Tiele as can be seen from Google frequency count and it is not proper to give credit to Cornelis Tiele for that word.
Realphi (talk) 01:17, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
@Ian.thomson: now that we have established that universalistic religion = universal religion, and discrepancy was due to translators using different english words for dutch word, do you ( and others ) agree that we are out of the "notability" discussion? If people don't agree with the term "universalizing religion", we can transfer all the content to "universal religion". Realphi (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
This frequency count of Ethnic vs Universal Religion shows that "Universal religion" is much more popular than Ethnic religion. Realphi (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Someone was saying that I am creating false dichotomy with respect to Universal Religion and Ethical Religion. This statement from Religion#Classification says following:
" Some scholars classify religions as either universal religions that seek worldwide acceptance and actively look for new converts, or ethnic religions that are identified with a particular ethnic group and do not seek converts. "
Also, it attributes this classification to one "Hinnells, John R" not "Cornelis Tiele" Realphi (talk) 16:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I obviously checked that. My point is : nobody who used the word "universal religion" associates it with Cornelis Tiele. Also, I have given the definition of dharma to mean "universal religion" , thousands of years before Cornelis Tiele was born. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Realphi (talk • contribs) 17:33, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Cosmic means Universal. Law means Religion. I don't understand how it is a topic outside of religion. In fact, "cosmic law" is synonym of "universal religion". Realphi (talk) 01:52, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Here, laws mean physical laws and psychological laws. I mean law in the sense of "newton's third law of motion". Realphi (talk) 01:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)