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I did substantial cleanup of this new article, including:
I'm concerned about the reliability of the Ashenoff source. I'm particularly concerned that better sources should be provided for the whole Pablo Escobar thing, since linking to a bail bond agency for that kind of info might run afoul of BLP.
It would be good to expand the professional bio section to discuss more of his tenture at CANTV.
Hopefully someone who knows the Castro Llanes case well can find better sources and verify the info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I've just returned from my library. Sugargrrl, I realize that learning all of Wiki policies is a steep learning curve, but when it comes to biographies of living persons, we must get it right. We cannot add information to biographies that is not scrupulously sourced to reliable sources. It is very important that you understand this before you continue adding info to the articles. I know it's complicated; don't worry, you'll get there. If you're unsure, you can post something to the talk page where others can review it first.
The research librarian searched on the title ("Presumed Guilty"), the author (Isabel Hutton) and within the July 1994 issue of Gentleman's Quarterly and found no record of the article cited. Thus, WP:BLP obligates me to immediately delete that information, which I will do next. If you can give me a better indication of where you got that info, we can always retrieve deleted text from article history and easily reinstate it, so pls don't worry that your work will be lost. No, e-mailing the info to me will not help; any Wiki reader needs to be able to locate the information; if I can't find it, neither can the average reader.
I've also been trying to verify your information about Unholy Alliance. According to the research librarian, the book was from a very obscure publisher (one she had never heard of), and has been out of print since about 2000. That may good enough for Hollywood, but it may not be good enough for sourcing information about living persons on Wikipedia. There are a number of us here who can work with you to build an article to Wikipedia standards and policies, but it may be helpful to slow down, read and understand the policies here, and then double and triple check your sources, making sure that any text you enter is true to the source. We're here to help, but the kind of information you're adding is very sensitive, and we must get it right. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Sandy, British GQ and American GQ and Japanese GQ, and italian GQ are different editions of the same mag (Just like French Vogue, American Vogue, Japanese Vogue). The original GQ is the British version. it is published by conde nast. I have the article here. As a PDF. Where do i email it. if you delete the information putting it back again is going to be a pain. Can I send it to someone to post it? The Yallop/halvorssen connection is well established by both Halvorssen and Yallop. Google isn't the only gospel. We have nexis in this office and we have the originals. what do I do. i don't want my boss to be asking me how these articles can see-saw this much.70.23.3.191 21:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Check this out, it can be found on a simple nexislexis search:
Amnesty criticises police and courts; TREATMENT OF HALVORSSEN RAISES CONCERN FOR HIS SAFETY |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
November 25, 1993 Amnesty criticises police and courts; TREATMENT OF HALVORSSEN RAISES CONCERN FOR HIS SAFETY SECTION: VENEZUELA; Human Rights; WR-93-46; Pg. 543 LENGTH: 642 words
On the eve of presidential elections, Venezuela has become a topsy-turvy land where the chief anti-drug investigator is in prison, the biggest drug trafficker has been released, possibly with the connivance of the President's son, and the police and judicial authorities stand accused of serious human rights violations. Damning reports. New reports by Amnesty International and Americas Watch point to the routine ill-treatment of suspects by the police, the failure of the judicial system to investigate alleged abuses and the venality of the courts. The case of Thor Halvorssen (see Page 538), not mentioned in the reports, could serve as an illustration of some of their most serious allegations. Halvorssen, former chairman of the telephone company, CANTV, and appointed Special Commissioner for International Narcotics Affairs in 1989, is in prison charged with master-minding the rash of bombings in Caracas earlier this year. According to the police, the aim was to create a climate of uncertainty and enable the conspirators to make a killing on the stock and bond markets. Supporters of Halvorssen, including the leading columnist Andres Galdo, believe he is himself the victim of a conspiracy to block his investigations into the growing power of drug traffickers in Venezuelan political and economic life. The British author David Yallop believes Halvorssen was betrayed by former President Carlos Andres Perez (who appointed him) because he was getting too close to Perez's own alleged corrupt activities. After stating as much in Caracas, Yallop was arrested at gunpoint by judicial police (PTJ) and later deported. Perez has denied that he ever appointed Halvorssen to the anti-drug post, which is demonstrably untrue. Irrespective of the merits or otherwise of the case against Halvorssen, hiss treatment gives cause for concern, and has led to an international campaign (including Amnesty) on his behalf. After his arrest by the PTJ on 8 October he was harshly treated and held in the Reten de Catia maximum-security prison in Caracas - criticised by Amnesty as the worst example of overcrowding, brutality and degrading conditions. Beaten in prison. There he was kept in a cell with 27 drug-traffickers, the very people Halvorssen had been working against. Not surprisingly, he was badly beaten. He was eventually transferred to another prison after his health collapsed - he is 50 - but it was several more days before he was allowed to see a doctor. Halvorssen was arrested on the strength of information from Ramiro Helmeyer, the alleged organiser of the bombing campaign. But he subsequently told the press he had been tortured by the police to oblige him to incriminate Halvorssen. Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the case is the role of the justice minister, Fermin Marmol Leon, who announced the guilt of Halvorssen immediately after his arrest, and said he could not guarantee his safety in detention. This, as commentators such as Amadis (Luis Teofillo Nunez) in El Universal point out, is contrary to the separation of powers, prejudging a case that has not even been formulated, much less heard by a court. This has led observers to comment that a 'marble hand' (mano de marmol) is behind the conspiracy against Halvorssen - an allusion to a remark from the attorney-general, Ramon Escovar Salom, that a 'hairy hand' (mano peluda) was manipulating events behind the scenes. Marmol also had an unexplained role in the precipitate release of Larry Tovar (see Page 519), the convicted drug trafficker detained in 1989 and pardoned by President Ramon J Velasquez in circumstances still being investigated by a judge. Marmol allegedly failed to follow correct procedures for such cases, ordering Tovar's immediate release without signing the appropriate documents.
SUBJECT: SUBSTANCE ABUSE (90%); INVESTIGATIONS (90%); CONSPIRACY (90%); ARRESTS (89%); CAMPAIGNS & ELECTIONS (89%); CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES CRIME (89%); PRISONS (89%); ELECTIONS (89%); JUSTICE DEPARTMENTS (78%); FALSE IMPRISONMENT (78%); HUMAN RIGHTS (77%); HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS (77%); TORTURE (77%); BONDS (71%); TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICES (69%); TICKER: VNT (NYSE) (56%); |
Hope it helps70.23.3.191 21:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I am so way in over my head here. This is going to be impossible, isn't it? It is so frustrating because I have everything here. As for Yallop--He sold 7 million copies of just one of his books! I hardly think he is obscure. Oh, we also have the Pablo Escobar letters written about Castro Llanes. Lastly, the guy who edits the mafia pages also wants sources for the Cuntreras-Caruana stuff. It's in GQ. What do we do? The GQ author is a very very well known investigator and she ripped the curtain off the Argentinian massacres carried out by VaLera and Pinochet. She is amazing (I've talked with her). we aren't trying to promote a movie, we are trying to show the truth about how the subject of our movie was the victim of a conspiracy that included former presidents, bankers, money launderers, and even Pablo Escobar (who died, coincidentally, just days before Halvorssen Hellum was freed)70.23.3.191 21:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
You are an angel. thank you for being so patient. I was on here last night way too late and I feel like I ran a marathon this morning. this is hard. ok, so i emailed you but there was no place to attach on here.70.23.3.191 21:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
everytime i log in i get kicked off... grrrrrAS 21:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Halvorssen says Yallop is "an old friend". [1]. I think his book cannot be considered a neutral source. I also found that Yallop was kicked out of Venezuela for "intervening in internal affairs" [2] JRSP 22:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the El Nacional report on the Yallop incident; the English-language sources cover everything said there, so we'll be OK using them. Will work on that sometime today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
JRSP, did you know that Castro Llanes was a stakeholder in El Nacional during Halvorssen's arrest, which explains the pictures of Halvorssen with the falsified check in El Nacional? Still reading. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
To sort out:
These discrepancies could be due to errors in translation; JRSP, can you find a Spanish source? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Lots to sort out here; hard to tell where to start. The Escobar connection has been questioned as possibly falsified documents, and there are layers of different theories and possibilities as to who framed him. Now that I've read the articles, are there any specific things I can type up for you, JRSP, before I start tweaking the text? I need to make lots of adjustments to stay true to the sources, although the gist is verifiable enough that there are no BLP violations. Since it's a PDF, I can't copy-paste any text here, and will have to type it all manually. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Putting refs here so I can use them:
That's all for today; I'll tackle the bigger stuff tomorrow or later, as it will be harder. I tagged some things that I didn't find in the sources, so maybe Sugargrrl has sources for those. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
JRSP, one quick thing; can you check the accent on Dalo? The source disagrees with your accent (but these sources have those kinds of errors, so I trust what you can come up with more). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I got this in some blogs[4], Halvorssen saying "Carlos Andrés Pérez me nombró comisionado anti-drogas, dándome rango de embajador y una comisión secreta". Later "Como Embajador para cuestiones anti-drogas..." and at the end a footnote saying "El autor fue comisionado de la Presidencia de Venezuela para Asuntos Antinarcóticos con rango de Embajador". What a mess! Is the official title so important? It appears to me he was a presidential comissioner —dealing directly with the President and not with the minister of Foreign Affairs unlike other ambassadors— but he had a diplomat passport for easying contacts with foreign governments. JRSP 23:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
All right, this makes more sense: he "had the rank" of ambassador" (reminds me that I supposedly was a Venezuelan diplomat—papers which I got in a week with a phone call when I had a problem with a third country):
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this was accidentally deleted in an edit conflict, it sounds relevant:
Halvorssen believed that Pérez wasn't responding to his reports on drug trafficking and money laundering and approached his ally, Venezuelan Senator Cristobal Fernandez Dálo.[1] In 1992, he was appointed special overseas investigator of an Anti-Money-Laundering Commission by the Venezuelan Senate. He was a liaison between law enforcement agencies around the world, working on drug and money-laundering cases.[2]
JRSP 04:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The citation says:
I'm almost certain that I added that citation to Thor Jr. long ago, and the sub-caption about "Evidence suggests ... " came from somewhere, but I don't see it there now? Weird. Any ideas ? Maybe I found the sub-caption on the tool I was using to search in the library? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
These little things are such a time killer. Here's what I found: when I did an online search via my local library news database, the return is:
So, it looks like that was the full by-line when they ran it hardprint, even though the sub-title is not in the online version. I'm not sure what to do here; I'm pretty sure Lexis-Nexis would return the same byline my local library database returns. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Something's wrong with the dates here, they don't work ... I think the charity dates are wrong, or else he was appointed to CANTV much later ?
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
References
Fonzi
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).Scott
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).I added my bit to the article. I think it is generally a bit biased in favour of Thor Halvorssen. As noted in the Washington Post article, Halvorssen was "controversial". - Mafia Expert 15:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Today I had planned to fill in some gaps in yesterday's work (hopefully JRSP can help find some Spanish-language sources to cover some areas that were glossed over by the GQ article), describe the "Yuppie bombings" (the sources give enough info to cover them, and a description is needed for context), and wrap up the Yallop affair, which doesn't look to hard to complete. I was surprised to see a descriptor of "investigative journalist" added to Isabel Hilton (that's in her article, do we want to give undue weight here?), because the GQ article is not a particularly thorough investigative report; the Gazette article does a much better job of analyzing all angles of the story, and the GQ article has some surprising minor factual inaccuracies. I've cited both sources where they agree, to avoid over-reliance on one source. If you can be patient with charges of bias on a one-day-old article, we can work through these issues. GQ doesn't even mention the controversy over the Escobar letter, for example, and the author seems unaware of how easily such documents are forged in Colombia and Venezuela, while the Gazette does. I was hoping to work on that with JRSP today, as he may be able to find sources. Will type that up next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
On the topic of bias, I haven't even begun to work on this section, but there are some neutrality problems in your text, Mafia Expert—maybe you can work on them:
The first two sentences need attribution and expansion; there are alternate POVs in the sources I have (I'll work on that when I get to that section), so they shouldn't be stated as fact without attribution. You didn't mention that Money Laundering Alert was bankrolled by Castro Llanes. It's going to take a bit of work to get through all of this, but I like to work methodically to make sure all bases are covered. Are we going into too much detail about Castro Llanes here, and should some of the content be covered in his own article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm as done as I can be with the Personal and Professional sections. I've covered everything mentioned in the sources I have, except that Halvorssen was a member of the Caracas Country Club and piloted his own plane; neither of those are exceptional for Venezuelans of his generation and socio-economic class. The sources give no further information such as professional accolades, his marriage (not a single mention of his family life other than his wife's name), what kind of family man he was, or what his friends and acquaintances think of him other than the "James Bond" comments. On the other hand, we have a picture of a man who owned a lion in college, and was partying, drinking, and jet-setting around the world during his son's formative years, and whose family members were decorated by the King of Norway while he wasn't, so I hope the sections I wrote aren't subject to accusations of bias. I tried to cover everything in the sources, while being sure to include the portions that will be relevant later in the article to the various theories about which of his many potential enemies may have framed him (CAP, Castro Llanes, Escobar, CIA/DEA). Actually, at this point, I'd wager that the personal and professional sections are short on positive information about him, and aren't biased in his favor. I should review the sources and see if I can add something positive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't found this issue of eight days without charges in any of my reading yet; I'm hoping someone else can dig up something on that, or Sugargrrl will pop in and tell us where that came from. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Both sources mention drug money-laundering connection to Escobar via a letter. The Gazette mentions a controversy, but doesn't specify the nature of the controversy—darn, since these are PDF images, I can't do a text search and this is very time-consuming:
From GQ (very surface analysis, this is all):
From Pennsylvania Gazette, p. 24 (more thorough detail, but still incomplete):
So, the Gazette seems to imply that the controversy has to do with whether Banco de Venezuela arranged falsification of letters? Gee, wouldn't that be surprising. JRSP, can you fill in the gaps on the nature of the controversy ? The way Hilton alleges it as fact is certainly a concern, and you can see the more careful language used by Fonzi in the Gazette. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
JRSP, are there there other articles that discuss the Yuppie bombings? Should I add the background here, or does it warrant its own article? If so, we have to find a name, because the name includes quote marks, and it's best to avoid special characters in titles where possible, per WP:MSH. I wanted to work on those and Yallop today. If we need a separate article, perhaps Caracas bombings (1993) ? I don't like the idea of "Yuppie" bombings. Or should I just add a background section here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that we remove the description (investigative reporter) of Isabel Hilton from the text, as she has her own article, and the additional description here gives undue weight to her over any other source (aren't all the other reporters also "investigative"?). The GQ report isn't superior to any other source used, and has some factual errors. She says the coup occurred in 1993, and she says Castro was successful in his bid to take over Banco de Venezuela. She also leaves out any discussion of the controversy surrounding the Escobar letters (Talk:Thor Halvorssen Hellum#Alleged Escobar letters). We should avoid giving that source any more importance than any other source, although I did leave the mention of GQ inline to make it clear that it's the British version. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
hi. thanks for being so patient with me and so helpful. i am happy to scan and email everything we have here. we have boxes of newspapers from the time. we have every article written about the bombing case, from the first to the release. Virtually all the media effort, until the involvement of Amnesty, Morgenthau, Yallop, and the British house of lords and house of commons, is entirely negative and ridiculously overboard against him. things started to change when international outcry began. halvorssen was held in the reten de catia which is a prison Pope John paul 2 asked the venezuelan government to demolish because it was so medieval. there is no question someone was out to kill halvorssen and eliminate any shred of credibility he could have in a u.s. court of law. the list, as the gq piece demonstrates, is a long one: gustaf gomez-lopez (banco latino), orlando castro (banco progreso), carlos andres perez (impeached due to the evidence halvorssen provided on his bank account), gustaf cisneros (banco latino), pablo escobar, the cuntreras brothers as revenge, or a combination of all of the above. the case is thick like pudding and parsing out everything would take hundreds of pages. he was issued an arrest warrant which venezuelean authorities call an "auto de detention" eight days after he was actually detained. the first 8 days were completely illegal detention. there were never any charges against him formally prepared by the fiscale nacional's office, just the bench warrant. it was rescinded by a higher court in december and he was freed. so, the "charges" were just an arrest warrant. if you think of it in the context of what he was put through there is a conspiracy afoot. and i am not saying that because we have a project we are working on. i have also all the copies of the escobar stuff including an affidavit from escobar's right-hand man "popeye" who is currently in a columbian prison. i can email it to anyone. it mentions the orlando castro connection. in the end castro fled venezuela so if halvorssen was smearing him how did halvorssen cause the collapse of his bank plus charges from DA morgenthau? he'd have to be a magician. and the latino bank case is also another doozey. these are real facts with many criminal things happening. why is it so hard to connect the dots and see halvorssen as the victim of a huge conspiracy? the articles from when he was in prison are hard to put any trust in if one considers the evidence after the fact. similarly, the 1994 piece in GQ and the gazette piece are seriously outdated. sandy, orlando castro did take over banco de venezuela in the end, FYI. he partnered with jose alvarez stelling and did so. jose alvarez stelling is a fugitive from venezuela considering not only did banco venezuela collapsed but so did banco consolidado--his own bank. the only main problem is that all of the newspaper copies we have here are not online. we have copies of everything from halvorssen-hellum's files 70.23.3.191 21:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Ambassador title: we have a copy of his passport and credentials here. it states "Embajador Especial Para Asuntos Anti-Droga." They are signed by the Venezuelan Foreign minister and then there are credential letters from ambassadors in washington, japan, and uk introducing him as ambassador.70.23.3.191 22:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Would a newspaper article from the New York times work? How is this:
Too Close for Comfort?; Inquiry Touches Money Laundering Expert's Backer |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
April 4, 1996, Thursday, Late Edition - Final Too Close for Comfort?; Inquiry Touches Money Laundering Expert's Backer BYLINE: By PETER TRUELL SECTION: Section D; Page 1; Column 2; Business/Financial Desk LENGTH: 1972 words DATELINE: MIAMI
Charles A. Intriago is one of the nation's most trusted chroniclers of the war on money laundering. Through his Money Laundering Alert, the 54-year-old lawyer has befriended leaders of the crackdown on financial skulduggery by drug lords and tax evaders, citing them in his newsletter, inviting them to speak at his conferences and gossiping with them on the phone. His editorial board of advisers is a roster of former top American Government officials and bank regulators, including Jo Ann S. Barefoot, a former Deputy Comptroller of the Currency, and Robert E. Powis, a former Treasury Deputy Assistant Secretary. He himself once served as special counsel on organized crime to then-Gov. Reubin O. Askew of Florida, and he prosecuted white-collar criminals as an assistant United States attorney in Miami. His expertise on money laundering has made him an oft-quoted source in newspapers.
But now, Mr. Intriago finds himself in an uncomfortable position for such a high-profile authority on money laundering: defending his close relationship with Orlando Castro Llanes, a banker who is now under investigation for money laundering in both the United States and his native Venezuela, and who was charged late last year by the Venezuelan authorities with bank fraud, embezzlement and conspiracy. [Mr. Castro, his son and grandson were taken into custody on Wednesday morning by the Dade County, Fla., authorities, acting on behalf of District Attorney Robert M. Morgenthau of Manhattan, on charges of grand larceny, according to Richard Sharpstein, a lawyer acting for Mr. Castro. He said the New York authorities were seeking his clients' extradition to New York. Mr. Morgenthau's office said only that it would make an announcement on Thursday.] In addition, the Federal Reserve Board is investigating Mr. Castro, along with several Venezuelan banks and companies that his family formerly controlled, including Banco Progreso and Banco Republica, according to a former Customs official and other people who were questioned recently by the Fed, the District Attorney's office and foreign officials. But the Fed delayed a civil action that it had planned to announce with Mr. Morgenthau. It declined to comment. Mr. Castro, who is in his mid-60's, was the original backer for Mr. Intriago's company, Alert International Inc. of Miami, and has been his law client for 16 years. In recent years, that has involved Mr. Intriago's defending his client against the inquiries of investigators. After American Customs agents subpoenaed and froze several of Banco Progreso's accounts at the midtown Manhattan branch of BankAmerica International for suspected money laundering in March 1991, Mr. Intriago persuaded a Federal court to halt the investigation and unfreeze the accounts. Mr. Morgenthau's office and Customs Service investigators are looking into the circumstances under which the investigation was stopped. By his own admission, Mr. Intriago chose not to go to the authorities in 1993 and 1994 with material that his own investigator said contained evidence strongly suggesting large-scale money laundering at Mr. Castro's Banco Progreso. But Mr. Intriago, who has not been accused of any wrongdoing, dismissed the investigator's conclusions and said the material showed no such thing. The evidence had been gathered by Richard Lucas, a former I.R.S. agent specializing in accounting fraud and money laundering. He had been hired by Mr. Intriago to unearth information that would help Mr. Castro in the wake of the Customs Service inquiry in New York, as well as to look into a possible smear campaign against him. As part of that investigation, Mr. Lucas documented what he considered to be suspicious transfers of as much as $3 billion to and from Progreso accounts at the New York office of Banco Atlantico, a bank based in Madrid, between 1991 and 1994. An investigator provided The New York Times with copies of Mr. Lucas's records, which he said he had obtained in Caracas. "The Manhattan District Attorney is looking into those accounts," said Sheila M. Donovan, a senior executive at Banco Atlantico, adding, "We are cooperating." In a letter from his own lawyer, Parker D. Thomson, Mr. Intriago justified his decision not to disclose Mr. Lucas's findings to American authorities on the grounds that they were an "attorney work product, privileged and confidential." Besides, he added, he had determined that Mr. Lucas's "conclusions are fundamentally flawed" and therefore did not amount to evidence of wrongdoing. Mr. Intriago also said that Mr. Lucas had been accused of "appropriating" the records belonging to Mr. Castro and "selling" them to Thor L. Halvorssen, a Venezuelan businessman who was the country's antidrug czar with the rank of ambassador from 1989 to 1994. Mr. Halvorssen gave them to American investigators, according to the letter. Mr. Lucas has maintained that the records are the property of the Government of Venezuela because it has taken over the bank. [...] |
is this kind of sourcing OK? Is the New York Times a secondary source that would meet your wikipedia standards. let me know given that primary sources are not acceptable. i am trying to learn my way around this.
no, there is no announcement on the purchase of the movie rights. and don't expect one till there is a director attached.70.23.3.191 22:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
ohmygod, i am so sorry. i didnt meand to violate copyright. i thought it was fair use standard to quote something on an educational thing like this. i am sorry. i wont do it again. i'm learning. slowly. i will keep editing this....70.23.3.191 23:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Amanda, I don't know who Edward Snider is, and I can't find him in the sources; which source is he in? Because the documents are PDF images, I can't do a text search on them, and re-reading the entire articles to find this fellow will take a lot of time. Do you know what source/what page he's on, and who he is? The article needs some context for him, and he has to be notable to have his own (red-linked) article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey, Amanda, I'm unsure whether to communicate with you on your talk page or here; it would be very helpful if you'd weigh in regularly on the article talk page. This edit has several problems. Wording like "raged in" isn't encyclopedic; encyclopedias avoid hyperbole. Also, you added info you said was from the Times article, but to a sentence cited to other sources, so that creates quite a mess. It would be good to use that undo button now, and start over. Each piece of text you add needs to clearly sourced. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This article has potential for featured status; the story is interesting, and there are ample sources. Amanda, becoming a featured article means that it becomes eligible to appear on Wikipedia's main page as Today's featured article, where a gazillion people will see it, as opposed to being just another Wiki article. You inquired elsewhere about all of the barnstars on my userpage; those are because I'm actively involved in the process of reviewing featured article candidates relative to the featured article requirements and helping other editors bring their articles to featured status. If you will get up on Wiki's policies of neutrality, reliable sources and no original research (summarized at attribution), and if we can all work together, we have the basics of a good story and I know all of the manual of style and referencing requirements necessary to attain featured status. If we are working at cross purposes and spending time making daily corrections to conform with the manual of style and referencing, it's not likely the article will rise out of the basement.
I propose the structure below just to get us going; the article organization may change as we get into this, but there is so much to cover that it will help if we're not working at cross purposes. If we agree on a structure, we can divide up the work; for example, I suggest we lose the Ashenoff sources, and that Mafia Expert (talk · contribs) can write a lot of the Castro Llanes article based on everything available in the New York Times, Washington Post, and other reliable sources.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Comments ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This sentence needs reworking; being of Cuban descent is not cause for Venezuelan society to reject Castro Llanes, reference Gustavo Cisneros. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Mafia Expert, not only is the GQ report very "fluffy" on all counts (I'd still like to remove the qualifier on Hilton from the article), the link is weak. Since you may not have the source, here is some of the text:
From GQ:
GQ goes on to say Dalo was convinced Halvorssen was framed. That's it. Dalo has been described as Halvorssen's ally.
From the Gazette:
The Pennsylvania Gazette is more thorough than GQ overall, but its content should be viewed in the context that most of the Halvorssen family attended UPENN. That's it; perhaps Halvorssen had a hand in launching the investigation or providing information. Perhaps you or JRSP can find more in other sources; otherwise, it's a minor part of the story (although I'm sure that both the Mafia and Escobar will figure prominently in Hollywood :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I'll remove the qualifier on Hilton, I think I did put it there initially. - Mafia Expert 19:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I have done considerable research to address gaps, oddities in the timing, and problems of context. Regardless of how many times MafiaExpert wants to alter this profile to underline the negative comments by the DEA that appeared in U.S. News the reality is these comments appeared when Halvorssen was in prison and was widely considered to have placed a terrorist bomb. This is not an insignificant fact. They were trying to distance themselves as quickly as possible. Especially if, as they said, he was an informant. Halvorssen's detractors at the time: Intriago, Castro, and President Perez were ALL later found to have been the ones engaging in illegal or criminal activity. All references to the DEA and "unusual ties to drug traffickers"--something that appears nowhere else and i cannot find any support for such a claim *anywhere*--are suspect given the little attention that has gotten when there is so much material on his work in other areas.
So, before you make any huge changes to my edits please let's discuss this in a civil manner.Sweetness 03:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Malaver's book is not available for the rest of us to review and I absolutely challenge what you write here. I will remove the material from there. Without viewing the context I will believe you did with that book what you did with the things I had to fix in which you injected your own POV instead of faithfully reflecting what the source said. SorrySweetness 06:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I moved Malaver's recontruction to the heading "Arrest and imprisonment" to put Halvorssen's arrest in context. However, I think the article structure should be changed because it does not flow chronologically. I propose to put "Intrigue and mutual accusations" before "Arrest and imprisonment" and re-edit it accordingly. Let me know what you think. - Mafia Expert 16:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you that the structure didn't flow too well. I removed a redundancy in a paragrpah you inserted from Malaver's book. You had it twice that he said Halvorssen was CIA and you had it twice that Malaver says Halvorssen had rogue policemen going after Andrez Velazquez). I also corrected that error. Andrez Velazquez was never president of Venezuela. Ramon Velazquez, however, was (according to the wiki entry on presidents of venezuela). i also fleshed out Halvorssen's response to Malaver. With regard to your DEA quotation unless you find a date *before* his arrest there is nothing to prove that he was on the outs with them from before. If they declared themselves on the outs it was during the time he was in prison. Not before--and any reference needs to be contextualized. I also added his marriage story from the NYTSweetness 04:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of the January 18 edits here have introduced plagiarism, misrepresentation of sources, incorrectly cited text, undue attention to trivia, and cherry picking of sources.
Text added and cited to the Fonzi source: [9]
From Quemados recientes, El Universal, April 23, 2000
Considering the extensive misrepresentation and plagiarism, I'm concerned about the rest of the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
This edit is WP:COATRACKing; Clarridge's other offenses belong in his article, not here. Since Duane Clarridge is linked, the extra info about his other offenses, unrelated to Halvorssen, are unwarranted in this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. now if only newbie editors who come across this page would cease refighting previously addressed points. edit warring can be so disruptiveMarturetCR (talk) 23:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Just because one person objects to include more information on Clarridge does not mean that this person is correct. Adding one sentence on Clarridge is relevant here to show the James Bond attitude of Halvorssen. Other people in this article also have an extra info about them added to briefly explain who they are. And calling somebody a newbie is not considered civil. - DonCalo (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
The mafia don has unfortunately removed edits that were worked in order to eliminate redundant tet and to add balance to the article. it also removed portions that were clearly orphans from previous edits that add nothing to the reader or scholar. DonCalo pls keep the discussion HERE rather than making UNAUTHORIZED removals. Thanks 208.125.21.226 (talk) 02:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I just found an interesting pattern. DonCalo was in a revert edit war with another user. these edits look like retaliation for edits made to other articles edited heavily by doncalo. Methinks there is a conflict of interest here. hmmm. 208.125.21.226 (talk) 02:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
DonCalo's your single purpose account appears to be mafia topics. i hardly think editing for balance is a sin. throw in as many rules as you want at me. your edits are out of balance.74.108.233.22 (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Wow, it appears user DonCalo thinks he owns this page. This BLP makes a number of extremely damaging assertions about the subject in question. It uses articles and quotations gleaned from when this man was in prison in venezuela on what the New York Times now calls trumped-up charges. The folks who, in 1993, attacked Halvorssen are now either fugitives, have been exposed as fraudsters, or have gone to prison. yet DonCalo, who has a penchant for Mafia Boss articles, seems to like the confusion and is using articles that are 20 years old (!!) as well as books by dubious authors whose publications wouldn't qualify as an RS. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a personal narrative fiction platform for a frustrated mafia book writer. I suggest this community take a deep look in the mirror and figure out if new information should be used to clean up this appalling and confusing narrative cobbled together from sources during an extremely contentious time in this man's life. If I can see these issues using google, surely wikipedians with more time and resources can do better. DonCalo's revisions and reversions are an embarrassment to him and to this community.12.130.116.6 (talk) 03:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@WMrapids: In your recent addition claiming that Halvorssen was a CIA informant, even the National Review source that yourself provided notes the following with irony: [Klassekampen] reported that Thor Halvorssen had been a CIA agent, working in El Salvador, from 1980 to 1989. In 1980, Halvorssen was three or four. Very precocious kid.
[2] Can you please elaborate on how this is an appropriate source to put the statement with an editorial voice?
You might also see how I have already edited in this article way back in 2018:[10], so I ask you once again to stop with the hounding accusations. Regards,
Fonzi
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).