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Kleinzach, a couple of I hope constructive comments: for some reason the table omits Dr Miracle, who has as much to sing as a couple of the other list roles. Secondly with 8 (or 9) characters, I think a layout with roles and conductor on the left axis and recordings (year/label) across the top would look better, though I am not really able to make such a design and I know is not standard for these articles. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
IMO this HOG etc. coding looks a bit ugly on the page and is also confusing for the reader. How about changing to this style?
e.g. 1996:
Would this be simpler and easier for the reader? --Kleinzach 23:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
While agreeing with Kleinzach that the above would be simpler, retaining the table format does require moving away from the "standard" one in the interests of clarity.
Given the extraordinary number of roles and permutations of singers in them, I wonder how the following examples might work. There are 3 versions here: one uses abbreviations (which I'd prefer not to see); another only uses them where necessary; the third totally spells out the characters' names.....
Any thoughts....?? Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Year | Cast: Hoffmann, Olympia, Giulietta, Antonia, Coppelius (C), Dapertutto (D), Lindorf (L), Miracle (M), Nicklausse (N), Frantz (S) Andrès, Cochenille, Pitichinaccio |
Conductor, Opera House and Orchestra |
Label |
---|---|---|---|
1948 | Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin, O: Renée Doria, G: Vina Bovy, A: Géori Boué, Coppelius: André Pernet, Dapertutto: Charles Soix, Lindorf: Louis Musy, Miracle: Roger Bourdin, Nicklausse: Fanély Revoil, Frantz: Bourvil |
André Cluytens, Theatre National de l'Opera-Comique orchestra and chorus |
EMI France |
1964-5 | Nicolai Gedda,
Gianna D'Angelo, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Victoria de los Angeles, George London (C, M), Ernest Blanc (D), Nicola Ghiuselev (L), Jean-Christophe Benoit (N), ?? (S) |
André Cluytens, Rene Duclos Choir, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, |
EMI |
1972 | Hoffmann: Stuart Burrows,
Olympia, Giulietta, Antonia: Beverly Sills, Coppelius, Dapertutto, Lindorf, Miracle: Norman Treigle, Nicklause: Susanne Marsee, Franz: A. N. Other |
Julius Rudel, John Alldis Choir, London Symphony Orchestra |
Westminster |
Of these, my preference I would rank 3, 1, 2. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
I can't see a successful design for a table if all those roles are to be incorporated. My suggestions is a structured list, e.g.:
That list of characters/artists could of course be made into an indented table:
Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin |
Coppélius: André Pernet |
Hoffmann: Nicolai Gedda |
Coppélius, Miracle: George London |
Unlike a table, this design allows for casts lists of more or fewer characters. My 2¢. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
1948: André Cluytens, Theatre National de l'Opéra-Comique orchestra and chorus, EMI France | |
---|---|
Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin |
Coppélius: André Pernet |
1964–65: André Cluytens, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, Rene Duclos Choir, EMI | |
---|---|
Hoffmann: Nicolai Gedda |
Coppélius, Miracle: George London |
1948: André Cluytens, Theatre National de l'Opéra-Comique orchestra and chorus, EMI France
| |
---|---|
Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin |
Coppélius: André Pernet |
1964–65: André Cluytens, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, Rene Duclos Choir, EMI
| |
Hoffmann: Nicolai Gedda |
Coppélius, Miracle: George London |
... (as the perpetrator of the current version of the table) that I really don't care one way or the other about how it's arranged. I do have one suggestion, though: now that we're moving away from the standard WP:WPO format - for very good reasons, IMO - would someone be interested in knocking up the sort of table that Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) first suggested? If no-one volunteers, I can have a go myself.
A couple of other things:
Oh, and I have a plan to radically improve the article on the opera - there ought to be a lot more about what Offenbach wanted and what Guiraud, Oeser, Kaye and others have done. Anyone else interested, please contact me on my Talk page. --GuillaumeTell 19:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
The question here is what happens when one singer plays multiple roles:
Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
1948: André Cluytens, Theatre National de l'Opéra-Comique orchestra and chorus, EMI France
| |
---|---|
Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin |
Coppélius: André Pernet |
1964–65: André Cluytens, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, Rene Duclos Choir, EMI
| |
Hoffmann: Nicolai Gedda |
Coppélius, Miracle: George London |
1971: Richard Bonynge, Suisse Romande Orchestra, Du Brassus Chorus, Lausanne Pro Arte Chorus, Suisse Romande Radio Chorus, Decca
| |
Hoffmann: Plácido Domingo |
Lindorf: Gabriel Bacquier |
1948: André Cluytens, Theatre National de l'Opéra-Comique orchestra and chorus, EMI France
| |
---|---|
Hoffmann: Raoul Jobin |
Coppélius: André Pernet |
1964–65: André Cluytens, Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, Rene Duclos Choir, EMI
| |
Hoffmann: Nicolai Gedda |
Coppélius, Miracle: George London |
1971: Richard Bonynge, Orchestre de la Suisse Romande,
Du Brassus Chorus, Lausanne Pro Arte Chorus, Radio Suisse Romande Chorus, Decca | |
Hoffmann: Plácido Domingo |
Nicklausse: Huguette Tourangeau |
Indeed, this looks great. I think it will serve us well, so I'll work on it a bit today.Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
The code above uses some unusual HTML constructs, so I'm thinking of creating a template, or rather a sequence of two templates for it. The first question is, how such a template should be named; I currently lean towards ((Opera discography-start))
and ((Opera discography-item))
. They would be invoked as follows:
((Opera discography-start)) ((Opera discography-item |1948: [[André Cluytens]], Theatre National de l'[[Opéra-Comique]] orchestra and chorus, EMI France |Hoffmann: [[Raoul Jobin]] Olympia: [[Renée Doria]] Giulietta: Vina Bovy Antonia: [[Géori Boué]] Dapertutto: Charles Soix |Coppélius: [[André Pernet]] Lindorf: [[Louis Musy]] Miracle: [[Roger Bourdin]] Nicklausse: Fanély Revoil Frantz: [[Bourvil]] )) ((Opera discography-item |1964–65: [[André Cluytens]], [[Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire|Paris Conservatoire Orchestra]], Rene Duclos Choir, EMI |Hoffmann: [[Nicolai Gedda]] Olympia: [[Gianna D'Angelo]] Giulietta: [[Elisabeth Schwarzkopf]] Antonia: [[Victoria de los Ángeles]] |Coppélius, Miracle: [[George London (bass-baritone)|George London]] Dapertutto: [[Ernest Blanc]] Lindorf: [[Nicola Ghiuselev]] Nicklausse: Jean-Christophe Benoit )) ((Opera discography-item |1971: [[Richard Bonynge]], [[Orchestre de la Suisse Romande]],<br />((0|1971: ))Du [[Le Brassus|Brassus]] Chorus, [[Lausanne]] Pro Arte Chorus, [[Radio Suisse Romande]] Chorus, [[Decca Records|Decca]] |Hoffmann: [[Plácido Domingo]] Olympia, Giulietta, Antonia: [[Joan Sutherland]] Coppélius, Dapertutto, Lindorf, Miracle: [[Gabriel Bacquier]] |Nicklausse: [[Huguette Tourangeau]] Frantz: [[Hugues Cuénod]] )) ((End))
The first parameter is the header text, the second the left list, the third the right list. Such templates make it a bit easier to create tables in this format, if this is judged to be useful – i.e. if there's a chance such a table layout might be used for other works. It might take me two or three days to implement such templates. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
((Special opera discography-start))
and ((Special opera discography-item))
so that it's clear it's a special use thing. --Kleinzach 08:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)