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Polish spelling is almost as simple as the spelling in Spanish or Greek: apart from some digraphs it's WYSiWYG. sz is read always as sh, cz is more or less ch, e is always e (as in bet or get, ci is always chi (as in cheers), n is just n. So the Polish name of Szczecin should be read as Shche-cheen, or ʃʧεtɕiɲ in IPA, or StSEchin in X-SAMPA. I think I could prepare a sound file. What formats does wikipedia support? Halibutt 11:37, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
What is your opinion on the list of administrative districts? Should it be moved to separate page (List of auxiliary local government districts in Szczecin, perhaps), or removed completely? Now it adds unnecessary clutter to page. Not to mention that those red links will propably never be fixed. Przepla 17:52, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I removed the comment at the beginning. It didn't worked as a discouragement for any further edits of header but also created some controversies, so Ruhrjung felt like it needed correction. As I disagree with that edit and due to reason stated above, I removed it completely. For the record, there is no significant German (or any other, for that matter) minority in Szczecin. German minority (and German minority MP's) are in the Opole region. Przepla 14:25, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The city name used in Polish is Szczecin in modern spelling, at least since 16th century, although the older spelling was also Sztetyn.
The city name used in English is Szczecin, and because it is a big seaport of interntional significance its name is widely known to English speakers. Please do NOT rename the old Polish city with its temporary German name. Thank you.
PolishPoliticians 04:30, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The city is now called Szczecin. It was called "Stettin" both in English, and everywhere else that was not Poland, until 1945. This should be reflected in the article. And why with the constant new user names? Nobody is fooled. john k 04:54, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Stettin is undoubtly the current German name, it doesn't matter how many times the sharlatants will continue to revoke this fact. PolishPoliticians 05:04, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have no idea what the current German name is. And the current German name is utterly irrelevant - who cares what is the German name of a city not inhabited by Germans? What is important is the fact that the city used to be actually named Stettin, and that this was the name that everybody calls it, and that in English, when discussing it in that period, people still call it "Stettin" in English. But you are never, ever going to listen to anything I say that you don't agree with so why bother? Again, why the constant sock-puppeteering? It's incredibly easy to figure out who you are, and each new sock puppet just makes you less and less reputable. john k 05:07, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There is only one English name of the city: Szczecin for all historical and moder references. The unoffcial and offical city name was always Szczecin (althout it was not always spelled in this way). If it doesn't matter to you what the German name is, PLEASE STOP pushing it into the article without adding ANY OTHER valubale info. PLEASE ALLOW other users fo develop the Szczecin article. THANK YOU PolishPoliticians 07:24, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't know who is the "everybody" who calls the city Stettin. For me the only name for this nice city is Szeczin.
I think we are ready for the final solution of all editing issuses at Wikipedia.
Please cast your votes now:
Yes
No
Abstain
I redesigned the article by re-ordering sections, making those with more info, more prominent and trying to act according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities. I also reverted to community consensus names of the city in the history section. The sections titles are inspired by Norman Davies' book about Wroclaw Microcosm, Portrait of a Central European City, by Norman Davies and Roger Moorhouse (Jonathan Cape, 2002) ISBN 0224062433 (ISBN 8324001727 – Polish translation). Przepla 20:56, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Once again are inserted. This list is obviously taken from some historic map. Current list is available here: http://www.szczecin.pl/rada/rady/adres.htm, I shall delete it now. Przepla 15:49, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to make everybody know, that History of Szczecin currently consists exclusively name Szczecin, which is against community consensus, reached here earlier this year. Since my reverts would cause edit war with User:PolishPoliticians, I'd opted to leave it at current state. Please read Talk:History of Szczecin for additional informations. Przepla 13:25, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know of what concensus you are talking about, but I think this a new meaning of the word cencencus we were not previously aware of. The Wikipedia naming convention is to use the English names in the English language articles (the same in other languages). Once we agree that the English name is Szczecin, all other dabates can be settled withod difficulty .PolishPoliticians 00:10, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
From checking the Talk archives, it seems this issue has already been discussed several times, and there seems to have been a relatively broad consensus to leave in the formerly Stettin at the beginning. Is there any way to reach a consensus before we go back to an edit war? -- Ferkelparade 07:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think everybody agrees that Stettin is the German name of the city. On the other hand the phare formerly Stettin suggest that this is a former name, what is false, misleading and against the Wikipedia naming conventions. I am trying hard to understand your reverts but please don't call it a concensus. PolishPoliticians 00:13, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I still don't see why "formerly Stettin" is inaccurate. The proposed solution would be accurate, but suggests a situation like that with Mainz, which was "formerly referenced in English by its French name Mayence" (which is true, although said references were in the 19th century or so) - that is to say, it gives no sense that the city itself was previously named Stettin, or that Germans ever lived there. I would still like to understand in what sense the name "Szczecin" was not a new name in 1945. john k 17:39, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Until 1930s a swastika was a glorious symbol of sun used by the ancient Indo-European tribes, but it was profanated by the Nazis. The same applied to Stettin, which wsa profanated by the nazis. Painting Polish cities with these Nazi names is like painting Jewish graves with swastikas. First this is profanation, second this is a criminal offence. PolishPoliticians 20:01, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Additional clarification. I only support usage of Stettin within the header because of Churchill speech about Iron Curtain. Przepla 20:53, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This argumentation is very chidish and naive. I'm talking about this Nazi BS. I am for using just one name throughout the article, but for the sake of logic, consistency and educational value, not because the other way is offensive. It might indirectly lead to offensive stuff (as we have seen over the past years, and that's another reason for ONE NAME way) but cannot be seriously considered offensive, unless you happen to be ridiculously emotional. Przepla, I don't think one stupid speech is reason enough to support the "formerly" instead of "German". "Formerly" indiretly implies that Szczecin was invented in 1945. I hope you know that it's not true. Have to finally go to sleep. Bye y'all.Space Cadet 02:20, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
SC, while Stettin may have been called "Szczecin" by Polish people before 1945, I don't see how that's relevant. That was never the city's name. In the pre-German days, it had been called "Stetin", apparently. In 1945 (or whenever - 1946, maybe?) a city named Stettin became a city named Szczecin. It had never been called Szczeczin before anywhere except among Polish people (presumably). To say that this name is not new is like if the French had taken over Mainz after World War II, kicked out its inhabitants, brought in French people, and renamed it Mainz, and French Wikipedians were then insisting that we not use the construction "Mayence (formerly Mainz)" because French people had always used the name Mayence, and Mayence was actually closer to the ancient Roman name of the town (with the ancient Roman presence proving, of course, that the city had really been French all along). This seems like silliness. I disagree with your arguments on this score at Gdansk, but I can understand what you're getting at.1 But Gdansk was at one time a Polish city before 1945, and had been known as Gdansk to Poles, and so forth. Stettin had never really been Polish before 1945 - it had been part of a Slavic-speaking Duchy of Pomerania, but that was centuries and centuries back, and even then it hadn't been called "Szczecin". So I don't see your point.
1Although I'm not sure of your basic premise. If we had "St Petersburg (formerly Leningrad)," would that imply to you that the name St. Petersburg was made up in 1991? john k 21:49, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Szczecin was named Szczecin fot the last 1000 years or so. In times the Latin speakers had difficulty in spelling the city name correctly they spelled it Stetin and the st letters meant shch sound, the same as Bydgostia for Bydgoszcz, Since the modern Polish language was invented in the 16th century the city name was spelled Szczecin, and I don't see why we should still use the outdated Latin spelling of Stetin for the city name in the present day publications. PolishPoliticians 23:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Co myślisz, o umieszczeniu w nagłówku takiego zdania: formerly referenced in English by it's German name Stettin? Jeśli wyrażasz zgodę, napisz na Talk:Szczecin. Przepla 09:42, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Jestem raczej przeciwny sytuacji, gdy artykuł prawie kazdego polskiego miasta ropoczyna się od nazwy niemieckiej. Propnuje aby dyskusje na temat łacińskich/niemieckich/francuskich/staropolsich nazw miejscowości przenieść do sekcji City name/Nazwa miasta, gdzie mogą być w pełni przedyskutowane. Nie widzę powodu dlaczegoby w nagłówku tłumaczyć jakieś starocie, natomiast nie widzę przeszkód aby zaproponowane przez Ciebie zdanie znalazło się w sekcji City Name, gdzie uzupełni tamte informacje. PolishPoliticians 22:29, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ale co jest złego w nazwie niemieckiej? Jakoś artykuł na temat Lviva zawiera polską nazwę, bo przecież w historii Lwowa, Polska odegrała dużą rolę. Podobnie Niemcy odegrały dużą rolę w historii Szczecina i dla części anglojęzycznych osób Szczecin to nadal Stettin. Przepla 23:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Synopsis in English: I am trying to convince User:PolishPoliticians to new compromise, this is written in Polish because it was moved from PolishPolitician's talk page. Sorry for breach of ettiquette. Przepla 23:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Po pierwsze polska nazwa nie jest hitlerowska, po drugie nie ma fałszywej formuły (former Lwów), tylko prawdziwą Polish:Lwów, po trzecie nie ma tam próby absurdalnego nazywania miasta róznymi nazwami w róznych okresach historycznych. Myślę, że możemy się zgodzić na formułę:
back to English: I think we can all agree to the formula:
What do you think? Co o tym myślisz? PolishPoliticians 02:58, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes...I would agree with that. The question is, I suppose, whether the fact that the city was formerly Stettin is important enough to mention in the intro (I think that "formerly known in English as Stettin" is implied by "formerly Stettin" unless one is told otherwise)...I would say that, assuming it's true (which I think it is) there's no reason not to mention it. john k 11:49, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wik was the one who really hated "German:Stettin", arguing that Szczecin is now the German name...at any rate, I'd agree to German:Stettin, assuming the article explains why the German name is notable enough to be mentioned. But I'm still confused about why you oppose "Formerly Stettin". In what sense was the city not formerly named Stettin? john k 17:08, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am looking at various popular English language atlases. A 1968 large format atlas has a map showing the city as "Szczecin (Stettin)" and the region as "Szczecin", while the index has both "Szczecin" and "Stettin (Szczecin)". It treats many other European cities similarly, e.g. "Warszawa (Warsaw)" indexed as "Warsaw (see Warszawa)" and "Warszawa", and "München (Munich)" indexed as "Munich (see München)" and "Munich". I also have a small format 1988 English language atlas using only "Szczecin", "Warszawa" and "München", whereas a third 1980s atlas uses "Szczecin (Stettin)", "Warsaw", and "Munich (München)". Based on this, it seems to me that Stettin has been a recent English language name for Szczecin. The German language Wikipedia also uses Stettin (de:Stettin), in conflict with User:Wik's attributed theory. Is anyone else baffled as to why this naming is not so controversial in the Polish language Wikipedia where it was recently added (pl:Szczecin)?
I value the English language Wikipedia as a resource for finding information on topics from older English language sources, and am glad to see a redirect from Stettin. I also believe that where redirects are in place, the alternate topic name should be mentioned in the destination article to explain the redirection. I support the formerly X style in introductions, which can be expanded in the articles. In general, names in other languages are already available indirectly from the inter-language link list, but I see the need to include related namings in articles. While I would also accept text in the article explaining the emotional impact of the former name on some people, to avoid repetition I would prefer to see more general separate articles covering topics such as Polish nationalism and sensitivities, and post-WWII perceptions of German and Japanese language, companies, goods, currency and tourists by various groups. --Zigger 06:29, 2004 Jul 25 (UTC)
Honestly, for a city with so much German history it is MANDATORY to include a German name in the first sentence. What the name was in English may also be interesting to some people and a brief information on it should find it's place in the article. Now, if it's really that important, then spell it out: "Formerly known in Eglish as...". This way nobody will think that Szczecin is a brand new name invented in 1945 like Kaliningrad. Space Cadet 05:01, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The simple term "formerly" includes both the meanings "formerly known in English" and "German name", since the reason it was formerly known in English as Stettin is because the city was formerly inhabited by Germans. As to Kaliningrad, I agree it's different. But I don't see how application of a name used by people from a foreign country does not amount to a name change. I return to my previous example, not responded to: if, after World War II, the French had annexed Trier, changed the name to "Treves," would you then agree that we should not saz the city was formerly named "Trier", just because the French had always called it Treves, and Treves is closer to the old Roman name "Augusta Treverorum", anyway? - john k(in weird internet cafe, not sure how to get the tilda to work)
So we now have German Stettin, can we consider this the new consensus? Przepla 17:22, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
For the record I expect that phrase until: 1945 will be controversial since it's basically the same as formerly. German Stettin is better since it avoiding the problem of name changes completely, yet providing information about that name. It is controversial also to me, but I believe that we can work it out without edits war. Przepla 10:02, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Are people in Stettin really still using that name? If not, then I suspect you'll have to explain in the text why a German name is relevant, ...and wouldn't that explanation be equally much controversial? I don't want to appear rude, but aren't you now making problem just for the fun of making problems? (Or as it maybe would be expressed by Poles: Aren't you now discussing just for the fun of discussing?)
"Also known as:" is of course a posibility, but it seems equally much inviting to amendment from passers by; and amendments to the introductory paragraph is exactly what we do not wish from unexperienced editors. --Ruhrjung 11:10, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)
Moved from Archive: Comment by 192.38.238.168
The name of the city is Stettin, it has always been like that and it will always be Stettin. Szczecin, is a name that was forced into use by the communists. That doesn´t change the reality that Stettin is Stettin, is city that is part of the germanic speaking area of Europe, though the communists annexed it from its people.