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I just wanted to add a link to Russian wiki's ru:Щецин. Can anyone authorized to change the article do that for me?
Stettin in Pomerania, which was from 1181 until 1806 in the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, then in German confederation and Deutsches Reich (German empire) until 1945.
Miscelanious ducal, royal houses of Europe took part in the government of Pomerania as well as Stettin. They all received their office of dukes of Stettin and dukes of Pomerania from the HRR Heilig Roemisch Reich/HRE Holy Roman Empire/SAC ROM IMP. adding: Swedish kings were Reichs Fürsten or imperial princes of the HRE Holy Roman Empire from at least 1648 Treaty of Westphalia until 1806 demise of empire. As such they were Dukes of Pomerania. Also see Swedish Empire and Dominions of Sweden. Stettin and Pomerania had for many years also the Hohenzollern dukes. Articles in Wikipedia especially on eastern history state many mistakes and gross misrepresentations. People were only fed war propaganda and the party line ( as I wrote earlier on both sides). It is tiresome to correct the numerous false histories at Wikipedia, often under attacks, therefore the list (it's now much sabotaged). There are disclaimers on all pages, meaning don't believe anything you read here, check it out yourself. Trouble is, these Wikipedia pages with all the mistakes get copied multiple times. MfG
source: Rocznik Statystyczny 1981, Główny Urząd Statystyczny, Warszawa 1981, Rok XLI
1960: 269.400 inbabitants
1970: 338.000 inbabitants
1975: 369.700 inbabitants
1980: 388.300 inbabitants
cc
Nico, please stop inserting German names everywhere. This is ridiculous. Edit something else. -- cc 18 Nov 2003, 06:31
CC, please stop insert foreign names elsewhere. English name at English Wikipedia, please! Let me remind you what Rick told you before:
Names of cities
Please stop renaming cities to Polish names. The names in use are those known to English speakers. This has been discussed ad nauseum, and needs not be done again. I'll revert all of your changes. RickK 05:34, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
What do you want Rick?????????????????????????
I second Nico here. Names are OK in this article, so Oder not Odra. And of course Londyn will stay Londyn NOT London in Polish Wikipedia. Przepla 21:03, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Nico primary area of interest is Poland. His activities are mainly making sure every single town and river in Poland is reffered to by its German name used in times Poland was occupied by German, Polish language forbidden, Polish people exterminated by the Germans. Nico activities are very destructive and annoying. -- cc 00:15, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
With all due respect, but this is not the case in Szczecin and Oder articles. Szczecin was never occupied by Germany, and Oder was as far as I remember mainly river flowing during germanic nations.
Moreover, I think your point is flawed. See Vistula article, for example, nobody is changing it to Wisła. Once again let me state that: Oder is a name of Odra river in English, as well as pl:Tamiza is a Polish name for a river Thames. It is common for major cities and rivers to have their names changed in national languages. There is: pl:Nowy Jork not New York, pl:Waszyngton not Washington, pl:Amazonka not Amazon River pl:Poczdam not Potsdam, pl:Ren not Rhine river. It is completely OK to use Oder in English wikipedia -- it is major river. It is completely wrong to use Politz as a name of a Police, Poland since it is not a major city in Poland.
As an objective wikipedian only thing that matter to me is if the name used is a name use in English language. It does not matter if the name is of German, Latin or Martian origin. And if my homeland was occupied by Martians I will not make a crusade to change name of major cities and rivers in English language from Martian to Polish origin, just because Martians occupied my country. Language is by it's very definition neutral, it is only the association with that language that makes them non-neutral.
Please consider Wikipedia:Naming Conventions: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. and Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form. Naturally, this supports what I stated earlier.
In short: Only reasons for changing Oder and Oder-Neisse line into Odra and Granica na Odrze i Nysie Łużyckiej is that: those [Polish] names are more frequently recognizable in English and/or as such appear in English media and as far as I know, they are, unfortunately may I add, not. Przepla 09:24, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
@Wik. Could you kindly explain reason for reverts, pretty please? No matter how low you think of mine edits, please at least give some rationale to your changes. Empty summaries are extremely rude. I gave reasons to my changes, why do you assume that I am so stubborn that I am unable to understand your POV? Maybe mine changes were bad, gave me reasons so I can improve, please treat other with respect. Przepla 00:28, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Wik, you can't be serious. Do you actually believe that Germans refer to the city under the POLISH name? Jor 00:42, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
No -- it's pronounced Vrots' wav. The 'l' has a line through it & is pronounced like English 'w.' User:sca
I imagine the same is true for Szczecin/Stettin. And, of course, it was from Stettin, not Szczecin, on the Baltic that the Iron Curtain ran (except that it really ran from somewhere rather further west, but Churchill didn't want to include occupied Germany...). But this doesn't mean that a print article should refer to it by an obsolete name. john 07:01, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My suggestion would be that it should be called "Stettin" for historical references before 1945, and "Szczecin" for general references and for historical references after 1945. john 16:55, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Polish area of influence, sort of, but not part of Poland (like Gdansk was until 1793). At any rate, was the spelling "Szczecin" ever used before 1945? I'm not sure why this would cause confusion, while use of Constantinople/Istanbul, or whatever, does not. At any rate, it seems like an agreeable compromise just to use the 1945 thing. john 21:33, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Can I just note a) that this page was protected long after the edit war ended; and that b) Wik is pretty clearly in the right in his dispute with Darkelf? The idea that this page should be protected and unprotected based on Wik's presence or absence, when it is Darkelf who is arguing the obnoxious position, is, I think, not a good one. john 20:01, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
As this page was unprotected I think it is time to reach a consensus about how Szczecin/Stettin supposed to be named within Wikipedia. Let us like civilised Wikipedians discuss the issue here, then perhaps after some 2 weeks time, let's vote similarly like in VfD, then change the page according to reached consensus and stick with it against foreign intrusions ;-). I think there are 3 options:
I suggest we put arguments for and against in this format:
I live in Szczecin, and I would be very glad if issue of naming my home city within Wikipedia would be finally settled. Let's show others Wikipedians that we are able to settle our debate as it should be. Let's show that despite our different opinions we can reach consensus without calling each other names and using edit wars and forcing page protections. Thank you. Przepla 22:45, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone present a solid objection to just using Stettin before 1945 and Szczecin thereafter? Is there any evidence of the city being called "Szczecin" before 1945? The article itself says that "Stetin" is the old Polish name. The most sensible idea is simply to use "Stettin" before 1945 and "Szczecin" thereafter. Is there any objection to this? john 08:04, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Let me copy what I have written on Wik's talk page:
Dear Wik, Thank you for once again causing protecting of Szczecin page. Thank you for disregarding my pleas of refraing from editing Szczecin, and for not using the Talk page. Thank you for not saying why are you changed the name. Finally thank you for for extensive checking of sources in order to change the name. Google in German gets 135,000 hits for Stettin, while Szczecin gets 29,200 hits. I am deeply indebted to you.
There is major difference between Poznan and Szczecin. Poznan is a capitol of Greater Poland and it was German due to Partitions, it was in a sense liberated from German occupation. Szczecin is Polish due to Yalta treaty and was German at least from 16th century (and initial slavic name was Stetin by the way.) I shall copy this to Talk:Szczecin, feel free to reply in any page you wish.Przepla 18:01, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is there anything wrong with just "formerly Stettin"? john 18:49, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Wik responded to what I said on his talk page:
Who cares what the German name is? This is the English Wikipedia. We should care about a) the name by which the city is known in English; and b) the name by which the city is known to its inhabitants. The English name of the city, as well as the name which the city called itself, was "Stettin" before 1945, and is now "Szczecin". john 19:39, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Further point: the question of what the current German name is is a matter for the German Wikipedia (which still calls it Stettin). On the English wikipedia, I see no particular reason why we should care. The city is no longer a German city. john 19:43, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Another idea. Remove all references for names in foreign languages from the article. Insert: >>Formerly known in English as Stettin<< at the beginning for backward compatibility with Churchill's speach. Move all historical names to History of Szczecin or History Section. Is that would be OK? Przepla 19:57, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just to make matters clear: I am conservative (in the European understanding of the term) but to call me reactionary makes my blood boil. I am born in 1973. That is hardly what any normal human would call "old". And I consider myself anything else than a German nationalist. Nevertheless do I strongly assert that the name Stettin is the most useful in many contexts, for instance when I in my daily work have to deal with American tourists who for some mysterious reason have decided to make a tour on the Baltic Sea. If I write "Stettin" in parenthesis over Szczecin, they often recognize the name they've heard. Similarly Danes and Swedes understand me if I pronounce Stettin, but not as often if I use my best Polish pronounciation. Actually, I'm convinced that Germans (at least from former DDR) are more knowledgeable about the connections Szczecin–Stettin and Świnoujście–Swinemünde than are Scandinavians. So User:Wik could come with other allegations, but this about only old and reactionary Germans holding on to anachronisms, this is quite simply outrageously respectless and proving Wik's very limited competence in Germanic languages other than English.
--Ruhrjung 20:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Przepla's suggestion of "formerly known in English as Stettin" in the introductory section sounds fine to me, although I'd prefer simply "formerly known as Stettin." The rest of it should still be in the article, however, perhaps in its own section which fully explains the nuances of it. john 21:17, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I would add, however, that no one (in particular Przepla) has addressed my argument that it makes absolutely no difference what people call the city in German. This should be an argument for German Wikipedia. john 21:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't like to feel obnoxious, but I think you argument is addressed above: English speakers who have no particular knowledge on things Polish might well remember the name Stettin but not neccessarily connect it with the name Szczecin. In addition, Stettin is relevant in historical contexts, which merits a redirect from [[Stettin]] to [[Szczecin]] and a mentioning along the line "formerly known..." Besides, English functioning as a lingua franca makes unintended, unuthourized and unusual borrowings from other languages (German and Scandinavian languages are here relevant) more likely.
--Ruhrjung 21:28, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ruhrjung, I don't think anyone disagrees that there should be a notice that the city was formerly known as Stettin. Certainly no one thinks there shouldn't be a redirect. And most people (save User:Gdansk, or whatever his name is, who is a troll) seem to agree that it's fine to call it "Stettin" in the history section when discussing pre-1945 history. My point was directed very squarely at what should be said in the first line. When discussing the name of the city, we should note that the city used to be called "Stettin". But it is absolutely irrelevant what German-speakers call the city now. English-speakers called the city "Stettin" up to 1945 (and generally for a while thereafter). The inhabitants of the city also called it that before 1945. After 1945, the inhabitants have called it Szczecin, and English usage has gradually caught up to that. Whether or not Germans still call it Stettin is simply not very relevant, since there is no particular reason to take any notice of what German-speakers call a non-German city (what German-speakers called the city when it was German, of course, is very much relevant.) john 21:42, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to say, that I am ashamed of my handling current affair. While I still think that some guilt lies in Wik's Edit then reluctantly discuss politics. I treated this too emotionally. Particularly I should consider relevance of German name discussion on English Wikipedia. I apologize all parties involved. Przepla 21:55, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
John, the discussion concerning what is the actual German name was brought up because Wik claimed the name should not be/is not used in German. I agree that it is irrelevant for the English Wikipedia, and Wik should continue this discussion at the German one, IMHO. Anyway, personally I think "formerly Stettin" is fine, which I have said before on a different talk page. User:Yeti however objected to "formerly Danzig" in the Danzig/Gdansk article because he thought it implied that the current name was created after the war. Nico 22:07, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
So, threby was that issue addressed. ;-)
May I propose that we copy the pattern from Gdansk?
--Ruhrjung 22:09, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
That's fine with me. I'm indifferent towards the "colorful history" bit - it seems kind of sugary and contentless, but whatever. john 00:05, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
May I suggest a compromise solution, which is consisten with the Wikipedia naming convention:
I make an official protest against the Neo-Nazi practices of Nico, who is starting the World War II again, translating the city name from English into German, and making no significant improvement to the article.
Mestwin of Gdansk 17:17, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The English name is Stettin, not Szczecin. Please don't misrepresent normal English usage. Normal historical practice here is to use the name at the time of the ancient events, not the modern name. Jamesday 00:43, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Some thoughts about above:
Szczecin might "be" the name in English, but what does that help when a substantial share of the native English speakers (I've had to deal with) don't recognize it – but have heard about Stettin?
--Ruhrjung 12:43, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Szczecin isn't consensual so far as native English speakers are concerned - it's inconsistent with the Wikipedia naming convention to use the normal English form. For this place, that accepted English name is Stettin. It's a shame that at least some native Polish speakers dislike the English word. That doesn't change what the normal English usage is. Jamesday 00:43, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
john 01:33, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
See also: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (disputed place names)
I changed header of the article as agreed on this page. I hope, that this will at least solve some of our problems (namely Wik's inserting former), as former in current context should mean how the city is called by it's officials. I believe that we reached consensus about header since no serious objections were raised and one person stating that Stettin is more popular English name didn't gave any rationale. Frankly the person I am fearing most is Wik himself, as he is illogically stubborn and apparently can object only by his famous rv method and can easily have this page protected again. Neverthless I still intend to have this page finally edit war free (and this discussion archived). If you feel that I am wrong please say why and don't just revert. Przepla 00:11, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
-- This entire discussion parallels that about Gdansk. To anyone who knows the history of this city, it is ludicrous that some would seek to decree Szczecin as the only name for referring to the city prior to its conquest by the Soviet Union in 1945 and its subsequent transfer to Poland; at Stalin's insistence.
That the city was called Stettin, WAS Stettin, before these events is obvious from countless historical references dating back many centuries. Yes, it's true that prior to the period of German eastward expansion that began in the 11th century there was a Slavic, Slavonic or perhaps Polish settlement in the area. So what? Berlin had obscure Slavic origins, too. As noted in the Gdansk discussion, using that as a basis for referring to the city before 1945 by its modern Polish name would be a blatant attempt to obscure most of the city's history, when it was German. Prior to the transfer to Poland, everyone who lived there knew it as Stettin.
For example, Catherine the Great, previously Princess Sophie von Anhalt-Zerbst, grew up in Stettin, not Szczecin. She would never have heard of a place called Szczecin. And 200 years later, Churchill in his famous "iron curtain" speech at Fulton, Mo., in 1946, said: "From Stettin, on the Baltic, to Trieste, on the Adriatic...." He did not say "From Szczecin, on the Baltic" even though in Polish and Soviet usage Szczecin now was the city's name, because everyone in the West still knew it as Stettin. (Incidentally, in employing Stettin as the northern terminus of the Iron Curtain, he was using a conveniently well-known locale, although Lübeck would have been closer to reality.)
What has been said about Gdansk can be said about Szczecin and thousands of other formerly German places in Poland: There is no argument that today it is a Polish city called Szczecin, inhabited by Poles. Nor should there be any argument that before 1945 it was a German city called Stettin, inhabited by Germans. That is history, and in presenting the city's history, it should be called by its right name at the time.
That INCLUDES calling this city Szczecin (Shet' shin) today. English speakers who call it Stettin now are simply mistaken, because that's not it's name anymore. One can understand the present-day German predilection for calling it Stettin, since it was theirs for so long, but that doesn't make it right. User:sca
You soooo blow things way out of proportion! Szczecin was a german city, it is a fact and it's undisputed. A consistent use of only one version of the same name cannot in any way "obscure most of the city’s history, when it was German". It is a current official English name for the city today as well as for its past.
You do the same and hope "it will make it so". My conviction is based on 15 straight years of continuous research. Cadet
The article states clearly to which country the city belonged and when. Alternative spellings in parentheses provide information necessary to understand the name's different usage over the centuries. And you are mistaken: Szczecin and Stettin ARE NOT two different names, but the same name in two languages. And surely Princess Sophie von Anhalt-Zerbst must have known the Polish variant of her own city's name, being an educated person, that she was.
What can be said about Szczecin or Gdansk can also be said about L'viv, which for most of it's long history was known under Polish name "Lwów". The most common English version of the city name "Lwow" came from polish spelling. However consistent use of todays official English name will not deny the 800 years of Polish tradition of the city. It will not deny the tragedy of it's inhabitants having been deported partly to Siberia in 1939 and partly to Polands Recovered Territories in 1945. Encyclopedic entries are to follow simple consistent conventions, not emotions and sentiments.
By the way: I don't know where you found this weird transcription of Szczecin pronounciation. The correct one is "SH-CH-E-CH'-I-N"
Space Cadet 02:44, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
--
I stand corrected on the pronunciation. Dziekuje! But to speak of "recovered territories" is absurd. By the same token, Stalin was "recovering" the eastern regions of prewar Poland, including Lwow and Wilna, in 1939, when he and Hitler decided to carve up Poland. In 1945 it was one giant, wholesale transfer of territories, with Poland being "compensated" (which was the phrase at the time) for its losses in the east by being given Silesia, Danzig, Pomerania and southern East Prussia --all of which Churchill described as "a magnificent piece of country."
When the Soviet demand for a Polish border on the Oder and Western Neisse -- including a digression on the west side of the Oder around Stettin – first was announced, Geroge F. Kennen wrote a State Department memorandum opposing it, which included the following observation:
"By including a large section of German territory in Poland, and the probable transfer of some 8 to 10 million Germans, the future Polish state would in all probability be forced to depend completely on Moscow for protection against German irredentists’ demands and in fact might become a full-fledged Soviet satellite."
At Yalta, Churchill said (it's in the minutes): “It would be a great pity to stuff the Polish goose so full of German food that it died of indigestion.”
Don't talk to me about "recovered territories"! Utter nonsense.Thirty thousand place names were changed from German to Polish. They weren't "recovered," they were conquered. User:sca 14apr04
Sca! Are you just playing dumb to watch me freak out, or is this whole thing really over your head? (In which case I don't know what you're doing in 'pedia). You don't have to explain to me what a stupid name "Recovered territories" is! My whole family was expelled to those damn territories in 1946. They called it "Repatriation", which literary means "return to fatherland". It was, of course stupid Communist propaganda trying to hide the fact that entire population was epelled from the true land of their fathers and sent to a foreign country, whose original inhabitants were already removed. I used the name "Recovered territories" because that's what they are still officially called! Even here, in Wiki! Just like calling the tallest guy in the class "Tiny". You don't have to argue and prove to anybody his actual height! We know he's not short, OK? It's just what he is called by everybody, get it? You still carefully avoid answering my REAL point - what effing benefit is it to call the same city 4 different names in one sentence? "My grandma was born in Lemberg, lived in Lwów, got thrown out of Lvov and frequently visited L'viv." Technically the sentence is 100% true but doesn't it seem to you like some stupid charade? It does to me! I'm not trying to deny German influence over present polish lands, not trying to deny Germany's fine history (no sarcasm intended!), not trying to modify historical facts! Stop being so annoyingly defensive and take the blinds off your eyes! Try to see what I'm REALLY trying to say, without implying between the lines that I'm some kind of Polish Nationalist, or Germanophob or something. We waste so much time and energy trying to "break the open door". Sorry for getting upset. I'm not upset at you (unless you're really playing dumb to tick me off, which would be darn rude and disrespectful), but at this whole absurd situation. Peace! Space Cadet 14:53, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've read the talk page. I'm aware of your "research". I can still speak my mind when I see a tearjerking, bleeding heart, out of context statements like the one from Sca.
(Who's bleeding? This is all factual and voluminously documented.) User:sca
What's factual and volumnously documented? That using different name for each different historical period is VALUE ADDING? I don't think so! You're not listening! I don't want to deny the German history of Szczecin or Gdansk, or Polish history of L'viv. There is enough room on each page (duh!) to expand on all of those aspects as much as you please. But what informative value does it bring to switch the name of described object five times in one article? Those different versions of the name are already mentioned in the parentheses. How will the quality of the article improve if we play charades and puzzles with the reader? Also, a simple convention will put a stop to endless debates which historical period should be awarded with what name and why. People! The Wiki articles are shallow, stereotypical and often inaccurate and we, with all our knowledge and potential, instead of fixing it, are arguing forever about what to call Gdansk when population was German speaking but loyal to Poland and other pointless issues. Let's drop the petty sentiments and get to real work - all of us. I understand there are exceptions like Koenigsberg or Istanbul - I still don't know how to handle those. But majority of naming issues with geographical entities in Central Europe will disappear!
I apologize to you, Przepla, but as much as you are emotional about Szczecin - I am emotional about cold logic. Space Cadet 05:04, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I didn't mess with the article, but instead responded to a "know it all" expert on the Talk page. So you, please REFRAIN from patronizing me and telling me what to do. Thank you. Space Cadet 13:51, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- - -
Another Wikipedian referred above to a Google search. Perhaps the results I got on 4/16/04 show how fast Google is expanding. At any rate, Szczecin got 1,270,000 hits, while Stettin got 226,000. Google displays only a portion to avoid repetition. In a broad and probably representative sampling of the displayed pages, I found that most of the Szczecin hits were from Polish-language sites of current entities in Szczecin or in Poland, or travel/tourism sites providing information about Szczecin. Most of the Stettin entries came from German-language history sites or English-language sites relating to pre-1945 events.
To me this clearly supports the argument (also advanced by john) that it would be logical to refer to the city since 1945 by its current name, Szczecin, but to refer to it by is former name, Stettin, when discussing its pre-?45 history. If this contravenes Wikipedia naming conventions, then perhaps the conventions ought to be re-evaluated. The overriding issue is historical veracity.
That Szczecin and Stettin are two different forms of the same name is irrelevant because that?s not the issue, either. The issue is, what was the city called before and after 1945 by most people, including its residents? What was its identity? The city of Szczecin and the city of Stettin are not the same city, although they occupy or occupied the same site, because their populations are wholly different. That the Poles may have referred to pre-1945 Stettin as Szczecin on nationalistic-historical grounds is of no more relevance than today?s German practice of referring to Szczecin as Stettin. In neither case was or is the actual name of the city affected by practices of people in other countries.
The existing ?(formerly Stettin)? approach is truthful. It corresponds to history. One can?t change history, whatever one?s ethnic or national origins or passions. And the history is that, before 1945 the city was Stettin. Przepla's suggestion of "formerly known in English as Stettin" is off the mark, because it wasn?t just ?in English? that it was ?known as? Stettin; it was Stettin and was known as such by everyone except, apparently, the Poles (and maybe some other Slavs?).
Regarding pronunciation: Having lived briefly in Poland, I can confirm that Polish is indeed a very difficult language for English speakers to pronounce. (One Pole with whom I worked remarked, ?Even we have trouble with it sometimes.?) It?s not too hard to understand what makes Lodz "woodzsh" and Wroclaw "vrotswav," but "sh?ch" is a tough one. So I guess that?s why some English speakers refer to Szczecin as Stettin (which I believe actually is pronounced "Shtet-teen" in German). But if an English speaker were in Warsaw and asked for a train ticket to Stettin, a Pole would instantly correct him by saying Szczecin and might show some irritation. Underlying this reaction would be the knowledge that the city of Stettin no longer exists. That being the case, I think English speakers should at least make an attempt to say Szczecin, however imperfectly (as pointed out by Space Cadet above).
Regarding Space Cadet?s recent intemperate comments, I don?t understand why the ?official? status of the phrase ?recovered territories? has anything to do with telling the story. In English, ?recovered? connotes something quite different from what happened in 1945, as Space Cadet himself notes. My concern is that the true history of these territories long has been obscured ? on the Polish/Soviet side by design, on the Western side by ignorance and sympathy for Poland?s truly tragic past. The Cold War is over and it?s time for these misconceptions to be corrected. And one must keep in mind that the Polish people had no voice in the territorial changes of 1945, which were instituted by Stalin et al. As an aside, I was not aware that intemperate, rude language was acceptable on this site. Nevertheless, I do regret any offense given to Space Cadet.
User:sca 16apr04
Sca, a couple of thoughts. Firstly, as far as I am aware, there is absolutely nothing in Wikipedia policy which prevents us from referring to a city by different names at different points in its history. There have been arguments made, however, that a) it is confusing to refer to the topic of an article by different names at different points in the article; and b) that this would open a can of worms with respect to a great number of cities. I think the first argument is simply wrong, and I don't think that the fact that a lot of articles may be written in a way which is wrong is a good reason for not trying to change one to be better (or whatever). But whatever. I'm getting sick of the whole issue. john 20:17, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)