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I have edited the article to add a reference to the recommendations of the Finnish Council on Health Care Choices on gender dysphoria in minors, which SEGM translated into English. The edit was deleted on the basis that it linked back only to the SEGM website. I have restored the edit and added a link to the original FInnish version of the guidelines at the Council for Health Care choices website. Justdad78 (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the latter establishes no substantial connection to the topic of this article, so I'm have removed it until consensus for inclusion develops here on Talk. Newimpartial (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I should add that if the implication is that the SEBGM influenced the Finnish recommendations, we need an independent source asserting that. Otherwise we run the risk of WP:POV and/or WP:SYNTH. Newimpartial (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am quite sure what @TheTranarchist meant was that there was no reliable, secondary source for the addition. While the document itself as a primary source can be used to prove its own existence, if no secondary sources have detailed it, questions may arise regarding the relevance and due weight of mentioning it. Madeline (part of me) 22:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The unofficial translation of the Finnish guidelines is one of the activities that the SEGM has undertaken and a reference to it is relevant to an article which purports to describe the activities of SEGM. The guidelines themselves represent an example of the evidence based approach which SEGM advocates/ Justdad78 (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't usually make reference to the translations individuals or groups have made unless the translation itself has been the object of secondary commentary. We don't use primary sources for that. Newimpartial (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just reviewed the edits now. The question that needs to be asked is why is this WP:DUE? What makes the SEGM translation of those recommendations noteworthy, and such that it deserves a paragraph in an article that is not about those recommendations? Out of the many publications SEGM have produced, why is this one important?
In order to answer those questions, you need to demonstrate via reliable, secondary sources that the translation has importance. The original Finnish document, and the translation by SEGM are both primary sources, and while they verify that the translation exists, they do nothing to help us contextualise their importance and demonstrate why we should have any content covering it. It is important to remember that not every publication by an organisation is noteworthy for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. One thing to note, as you are a new user, you may be unfamiliar with what we consider reliable sources on Wikipedia. While we have a helpful list of sources that have been discussed multiple times, often you are required to check the Reliable Sources Noticeboard archives for past discussions on sources that haven't been frequently discussed, which can be difficult and overwhelming for new editors. So I would recommend that if you're unsure about whether a source is reliable, that you post it here so that we can assess it together. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The translation of the Finnish guidelines is important because the guidelines themselves provide one of the first examples of a national health authority adopting an evidence based approach to gender dysphoria in children. The guidelines provide an illustration of the kind of approach to treatment that SEGM promotes.
Again, analogies between the approach promoted by SEBGM and the approaches taken by other organizations and various jurisdictions are WP:OR unless secondary sources make that connection themselves. I don't see that in the link from The Economist just provided. Newimpartial (talk) 00:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately this is not an article on the Finnish guidelines. The Economist source, while reliable, cannot be used for the content that was proposed because it does not mention or link to SEGM in any way. To include it would therefore be WP:SYNTH and it would fall afoul of the no original research policy.
If you want to include a paragraph on the translation of the Finnish guidelines, then you need to provide a reliable source that asserts why SEGM's translation is important, and ideally what impact that translation has had (if any). The source must mention SEGM in some way for it to comply with the relevant policies and guidelines that cover articles such as this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th Thank you for the info about justdad78 and Gript, it does indeed seem unreliable, I didn't find that page about Gript earlier or I'd not have suggested it. Thank you both. Jdbrooktalk01:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. This sort of issue, trying to identify if a source is or is not reliable, is why talk page discussions are always recommended in controversial content areas such as this one. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Questioning "opposes standard medical care for gender dysphoria."
There doesn't seem to be standard medical care for gender dysphoria, as there is disagreement between experts. The UK and Swedish and Finnish and WPATH appear to differ. And the French National Academy of Medicine. See, e.g., https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o2303 . It is not clear that SEGM disagrees with all of these, if one wanted to say they are, all together, "standard." Also there is e.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26119518/ which is earlier and talks with reference to WPATH guidelines: "However, in actual practice, no consensus exists whether to use these early medical interventions." So this sentence about SEGM opposing standard medical care at the beginning of the page does not appear accurate.
They also oppose poor trans people of any age transitioning (see their actions in Arizona), don't forget that part. Do you have any evidence that a blanket ban on public funding for medical transition at any age is supported by medical consensus? I'm not going to bother debating the rights of minors since that part itself is so blatantly against "standard medical care for gender dysphoria" I needn't bother. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TheTranarchist@TenBlueEagles I don't see evidence of medical consensus, so I don't expect to find someone who agrees with it or disagrees with it.
Where do you see the opposition for medical interventions for poor trans people "at any age"? The headings in the Arizona brief seem to be about adolescent females with mental health problems, double mastectomies on minors, and the poor quality of the evidence regarding these interventions for young people. A lot of evidence reviews have been regarding minors, and it seems this case is about minors.
Re: The headings in the Arizona brief seem to be about adolescent females with mental health problems, double mastectomies on minors, and the poor quality of the evidence regarding these interventions for young people - if you are going to insist on taking these WP:FRINGE, transphobic political interventions at face value and defending their POV verbatim - well, I can't see that as being on topic for WP Talk pages, at all. Repetition of bigoted talking points isn't really a way to improve Wikipedia articles IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, two transgender minors (who still deserve rights fringe views aside) filed a class-action lawsuit on behalf of people under 21 because the state has had a flat out ban on providing medicaid coverage for transition related surgeries since 1982 (for reference, 18-21 means adult). SEGM, being their wonderful selves, filed a brief misgendering them and congratulating the state for refusing to extend that coverage. Their brief states SEGM recognizes the right of mature adults to undergo gender-affirming interventions despite the low quality of evidence on which the interventions are based but is very concerned about applying experimental procedures to vulnerable youth, whose gender identity is still developing and whose ability to meaningfully consent to interventions with unknown long-term outcomes is highly uncertain. They sneak into the footnotes that This Brief refers to “pediatrics” as the practice of medicine for patients under age 18; “children” as pre-pubescent; “adolescents” as pubescent individuals; and “young people” and “youth” as those 25 and under. There is a lot of high quality evidence that adults are benefited by transition (same for youth, but it's easier for anti-trans groups to cry "save the children"), which this explicitly contradicts. It also makes clear they oppose the right of those under 25 to transition while nominally just protecting the children. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial I said what it looked to me like the brief covered, rather than what was said about the brief earlier in the discussion (" oppose poor trans people of any age transitioning"). I don't see that you've addressed what I said?
@TheTranarchist as you just quoted above, SEGM explicitly says it recognizes the rights of mature adults, so I don't see where you are getting the "trans people of any age transitioning" being opposed.
Also, why did you highlight the low quality of evidence statement? This is a technical term and refers to, e.g., the recommendations of the Endocrine Society regarding double mastectomies and surgeries (https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558#99603239 ) which it appears to me gave the evidence behind their recommendations (section 5) low quality GRADE, very low quality GRADE or didn't grade it ("Direct evidence for these statements was either unavailable or not systematically appraised and considered out of the scope of this guideline.")
Note that some countries view 18 as adult for some things but not others (e.g., smoking and drinking in the US), given the reality of how brains develop regarding decision making, hence the age of around 25 for Finland for these interventions, too, and WPATH SOC8's mention of people just above 18 as well as being different (transitional-age adults, p S44). Again, there isn't consensus.
Most recent reviews I've seen (Sweden, Finland, UK) concentrate on young people. What evidence reviews are high quality?
And again, it doesn't seem there is a "standard medical care" for gender dysphoria, given the expert disagreements.
Are you disputing that the "standard medical care" for gender dysphoria is to make gender-affirming surgeries and treatments available to adults? If you are, what authorities support your contention that there is a dispute about this? No red herring, please. Newimpartial (talk) 02:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Jdbrook, if you are going to talk about adolescent females with mental health problems, I'm just not going to talk about that, because it is irrelevant to the reality SEBGM's "brief" was supposed to be addressing. That was, in fact, a red herring. Newimpartial (talk) 02:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Amicus Brief gives evidence that "THERE IS NO MEDICAL CONSENSUS SUPPORTING BENEFICIAL EFFECTS OF MASCULINIZING MASTECTOMIES FOR ADOLESCENT FEMALES."
They specifically address "Neither the WPATH nor the Endocrine Society guidelines establish a valid standard of care for masculinizing mastectomies." Page 24.
There is the definition of youth in footnote 20 as mentioned by @TheTranarchist but this brief seems to be talking about laws for minors. They say therapy can help youth, but as far as what is accepted practice they talk about minors:
ETHICAL EXPLORATORY PSYCHOLOGICAL INTERVENTIONS ARE A COMMONLY ACCEPTED PRACTICE FOR TREATING MINORS’ DISTRESS page 28.
Going back to the question: is the argument that this Arizona case shows that SEGM opposes standard medical care for gender dysphoria?
They state why there is no standard of care for this intervention, explicitly, and more generally there are, as I said above, different criteria espoused by different experts, and a lack of consensus, more generally.
The law applies to adults too, dance around it as much as you want, and they stated they oppose adults transitioning. Also, The Endocrine Society and WPATH opposed the ban, and I trust them more than an organization which has been critiqued and compared to NARTH for not offering any real alternatives to care apart from insisting that respecting transgender people is bad and publishing opinion pieces since they can't get in peer-reviewed journals.
This Arizona case shows that SEGM opposes standard medical care for gender dysphoria yes it does, as evidenced by actual medical organizations speaking against it. More than that, most sources referring to them contrast their positions with the actual medical organizations. See, for example, Every major medical association in the United States — including the American Medical Association, the Endocrine Society, the Pediatric Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry — has issued statements supporting gender-affirming care for youth. Unless SEGM is on board with that, it is opposed to medical consensus. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 04:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, referring to young trans men as adolescent females is offensive, POV language, and the fact that a FRINGE group used this language when lobbying state lawmakers does not make it either DUE for article space or appropriate for you to parrot in Talk space. That isn't how mainstream scholarship refers to young trans people, and so if you want to convince anyone of anything, you need to avoid using POV language.
Also, one of the issues at stake was the age limit of 21 set for gender-affirming surgery in Arizona to be covered by Medicaid. Are you denying that the SEBGM brief was filed in opposition to lowering that limit from 21? If it was, that flies in the face of standard practice for treatment of gender dysphoria, in which there is no significant debate within the relevant professional communities about the appropriateness of those 18 and over to be able to access surgery and other treatment. Newimpartial (talk) 05:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are claiming SEGM goes against the standard of care. They have given evidence and I have given evidence that there is no agreed upon standard of care. They have in fact detailed issues with WPATH and the Endocrine Society guidelines and said there is no consensus and again, I've given you several guidelines.
You can repeat that you prefer some professional societies over the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare, its counterpart in Finland, the UK review of the gender care services in the largest pediatric gender clinic in the world, and the recommendations of the French National Academy of Medicine, but that doesn't mean there is consensus.
There are several standards. Many prioritize psychotherapy, which does in fact help some kinds of gender dysphoria resolve and helps to try to figure out what kind one is dealing with. There is more than one treatment for gender dysphoria, and similarly, there are ways of being trans identified which are temporary.
Repeating that one prefers WPATH and the Endocrine Society or that 18-21 for WPATH is recommended for a certain treatment doesn't change this.
Re: Repeating ... that 18-21 for WPATH is recommended for a certain treatment doesn't change this. - actually, if there is general agreement within the community of practice worldwide that surgery and supplementary treatments should be available for those 18-21, then that does indeed change this, because it means that in spite of the WP:FUD you are sowing on their behalf, SEBGM's detailed issues with WPATH do in fact mean that it goes against the standard of care for transgender adults in particular. And this is, in fact, one of the things the WP:RS reliable sources say about SEBGM. Newimpartial (talk) 11:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Standard medical care" is vague and seems to have a degree of country-relativeness, which can confuse international readers; we should specify what treatments they oppose and who in turn opposes SEGM's position. Crossroads-talk-22:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial that lists a set of guidelines (to be accurate the draft, but it is a sweeping statement) that SEBGM disagrees with, and has a clear reference. One could say what it is concerned about more generally, e.g.,
This says exactly which rules for care it disagrees with, otherwise one is back to arguing about which medical care is "standard". It also disagrees with the American Academy of Pediatrics, it seems, according to the op-ed by a SEBGM Advisor in the WSJ which I am still trying to argue is a good reference for an activity of SEBGM. This is what the WSJ op-ed says:
"The AAP has ignored the evidence that has led Sweden, Finland and most recently the U.K. to place severe restrictions on medical transition for minors. The largest pediatric gender clinic in the world, the U.K.’s Gender Identity Development Service, was ordered to shut down in July after an independent review expressed concerns about clinicians rushing minors to medical transition. Medical societies in France, Belgium and Australia have also sounded the alarm. The U.S. is an outlier on pediatric gender medicine"
WP:RSOPINION material is not DUE unless discussed in independent sources, as a rule. And as far as Buzzfeed, you have chosen a sentence that is fairly tangential to the source article as a whole, have you not? Why have you done that? Newimpartial (talk) 04:52, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial why did you remove my change to the initial description of SEGM? I took it from an Associated Press article.
I had put in:
The '''Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM)''' is an [[Nonprofit organization|non-profit organisation]] of health professionals who are "concerned about medical transition risks for minors."<ref>((Cite web |date=2022-05-04 |title=Early transgender identity tends to endure, study suggests |url=https://apnews.com/article/science-health-gender-identity-79a844a84cbc3fc1ff178476cc16cf2e |access-date=2022-10-10 |website=AP NEWS |language=en))</ref> It has been called a group that opposes standard medical care for gender dysphoria.
Do you have some citations to show that the AP description is incorrect?
The AP description did not call them an activist organization so I took that part out. And I don't see that we editors have converged on whether they oppose standard medical care for gender dysphoria because we haven't agreed there is a standard medical care for gender dysphoria, given all the disagreements between guidelines out there.
Despite your protestations to the contrary, the only recognized treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. Conversion therapy used to be tried, until it was proved not to work and denounced by every medical organization. Unless you can point to sources that state that there is a standard care for transgender people apart from transition, opposing people's right to transition is opposing standard medical care.
The AP article mentions them briefly, the other sources go in depth and actually list what medical organizations actually believe, and how SEGM's positions are contrary to that. For example, from BuzzFeed News: Every major medical association in the United States — including the American Medical Association, the Endocrine Society, the Pediatric Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry — has issued statements supporting gender-affirming care for youth.
Finland (which I think someone showed you above, and I think they specifically don't have surgery below perhaps it is 18),
the risks outweigh the benefits in general for medical intervention, so only exceptional cases are treated, others no, not generally, with medical intervention (Sweden for under 18's), and the
UK is also not agreeing that the only recognized treatment for gender dysphoria is transition ( the national review of the UK's child/adolescent gender clinic, the Cass Review mentions several ways gender dysphoria can resolve including: gender dysphoria resolves without transition, settled sexuality resolves gender dysphoria, continued gender fluidity, and then they also have social and medical transition).
Psychotherapy can help resolve certain kinds of gender dysphoria which is likely why it is first line, as there is no clear test to tell when gender dysphoria isn't temporary. There are case studies showing this, composite case studies in a book on gender dysphoria, etc. The claim is not that every case of gender dysphoria will resolve with psychotherapy, but that some will, and the issue is that no one can say for certain who those "some" are. You can also see lack of clarity about how gender dysphoria for anyone will behave stated as expert opinion in the recent Reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/, quotations by de Vries (who is the lead author of seveal keypapers), Anderson (another leading physician in the field).
"Unless you can point to sources that state that there is a standard care for transgender people apart from transition, opposing people's right to transition is opposing standard medical care."
Your claim is that standard medical care is medical transition. The burden of proof is on you. I've given you guidelines above that do not require medical transition. They disagree with each other. I've said that there is no consensus and also given a paper for that.
As I asked above, are you disputing that there is consensus supporting medical transition for adults, when they desire it, as the best practice for standard care for trans people? If you are, please provide some RS that gives some evidence of this dispute - the French and Finnish sources you have provided so far so not do this. Newimpartial (talk) 05:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial The Finnish guidelines are for under 25. Not under 18.
So are you saying that because the Finnish guidelines take a different position, that therefore there is no consensus in the relevant professional community for the availability of surgery to trans people age 18-25? Newimpartial (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TheTranarchist and I have quoted what AP says the organization does. You are saying it is not what it does and choosing to override the AP?
Better sources are already used in the article. The AP is simply quoting what the organization says about itself, and that by itself does not make the self-serving and misleading description WP:DUE for inclusion in the article. Newimpartial (talk) 05:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial I do not see that Buzzfeed's description of a group is better than the Associated Press' description of a group, that appears to be your opinion, is it not?
@Newimpartial your current stance seems to be that if an organization agrees with with the group calls itself, that it is misleading. This will restrict you to sources which disagree with what the group claims it is doing, as well as violating WP:NPOV . The Associated Press is a reliable source and thus should be quoted. Currently it is violating WP:NPOV.
The other references for those first three sentences are Buzzfeed News, CBS Miami, The Advocate and Medpage today. The Economist is also quoted, however, it does not support those sentences, in fact it says that different guidelines disagree (Europe vs. America section, for instance). Jdbrooktalk21:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am not automatically disqualifying sources that accept SEBGM at face value. However, it is clearly a minority of sources that do so in their own editorial voice. Newimpartial (talk) 22:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial None of the statements at the top report what SEBGM says it does, what AP says it does, what the Economist says it is, or what Medscape says it does. An accusation against it is the second sentence and its non-recognition as a scientific organization (what does that mean??) is the third sentence. (Does it claim anywhere on its web pages that it is a scientific organization?)
Instead an "accusation" is listed with high priority--even there, in the article saying an accusation, following the link to its Buzzfeed source, it says "SEGM member Roberto D’Angelo said the group was concerned with the “low quality of evidence” in gender-affirming treatment." https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/avivastahl/transgender-trans-kids-healthcare-science
How many references are required for this information to actually appear in Wikipedia?
"Mason is a clinical advisor to SEGM, an organization set-up to evaluate current interventions and evidence on gender dysphoria." https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/964604 Medscape Medical News
"We are an international group of over 100 clinicians and researchers concerned about the lack of quality evidence for the use of hormonal and surgical interventions as first-line treatment for young people with gender dysphoria. We represent expertise from a range of clinical disciplines.
Our objectives include evaluating current interventions for gender dysphoria, providing balanced evidence summaries, promoting the development of effective and supportive psychosocial approaches for the care of young people with gender dysphoria and generating good, answerable questions for research.
Young people with gender dysphoria deserve respect, compassion, and high quality care. Please join us in our mission to promote evidence-based care for children, adolescents, and young adults that prioritizes life (i.e. measures of mortality), quality of life, long-term outcomes, and fully informed consent. SEGM is free from political, ideological, religious, or financial influences." https://segm.org/about_us SEBGM itself
And for the misinformation claim, SEBGM is saying the evidence is low quality, which is what all the evidence reviews are saying, and why several countries have changed their policies drastically. The op-ed in the WSJ that somehow is not a SEBGM activity (see discussion below) is exactly about this issue.
This page does not appear to be an accurate representation of this organization: its stated goals are not even listed anywhere, even though high quality publications like AP and Medscape believe them and report them and the Economist uses them as a source.
@Newimpartial @Crossroads Medscape is a mainstream medical journal. Sources are just being dismissed because of their content.
I really don't know what to say.
This Medscape article is being thrown out because an editor doesn't think this Medscape article is representing a mainstream opinion of what SEBGM is? Is the article about what some people think SEBGM is or what it is? AP is being thrown out for what SEBGM is but quoted otherwise. Buzzfeed quotes a member saying that the group is concerned with low quality evidence. This is not mentioned either.
There are repeated sources saying that SEBGM is concerned with the quality of evidence behind these medical treatments. By the group itself, by others. This is not being mentioned.
Currently this page does not say what SEBGM does besides the incorrect claim that it disagrees with standard medical care for gender dysphoria, as there is no standard medical care, there are a wide diversity of approaches. I gave an article that has someone from SEBGM saying that WPATH is not doing evidence based care. This would be a correct statement, where SEBGM disagrees with a policy.
(Some other countries are doing evidence reviews, and putting together policies based on them, that would be evidence based medicine. Is SEBGM against them?)
So the lead is currently this incorrect statement about the group and then an accusation about it (what misinformation is it spreading in particular??) and then a claim that it is also not recognized as a scientific organization (who recognizes scientific organizations? who gets to decide this?)?
"The Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is an activist non-profit organisation and group that opposes standard medical care for gender dysphoria. The group has been accused of spreading misinformation about gender dysphoria and gender-affirming care. It is not recognized as a scientific organization."
This doesn't actually tell you what SEBGM does.
Another questionable statement:
"In Texas, Attorney General Paxton cited SEGM's statement that "childhood-onset gender dysphoria has been shown to have a high rate of natural resolution, with 61-98% of children reidentifying with their biological sex during puberty" in a bill that would restrict gender-affirming care for transgender youth. However, the statistic is cited from a paper which showed a strong association between the intensity of a child's dysphoria and its persistence."
The 61%-98% statement is a standard result from a review article by Ristori & Steensma (2016), because....the group is quoting the evidence. The second sentence is a non sequitur. What is it doing there? What does the "however" imply, did SEBGM say something incorrect?
Ditto:
"In April 2022, the Florida Department of Health wrote a memo which misrepresented the scientific consensus to stop minors in the state from socially or medically transitioning and cited Malone."
Why didn't the Wikipedia page actually link to the memo? I would put the actual link in now except then the whole sentence doesn't make sense, because I don't see Malone cited anywhere in the memo.
"The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services stated "gender-affirming care for minors, when medically appropriate and necessary, improves their physical and mental health. Attempts to restrict, challenge, or falsely characterize this potentially lifesaving care as abuse is dangerous.""
SEBGM criticized the US department of Health and Human services for not using the evidence when it made these statements. That would be accurate to report. So did Florida, in the memo.
To summarize what is listed under activities:
A quotation from one adviser in the Christian Post. (But a quotation from an adviser in Medscape has been rejected.) Also a sentence about social transition making gender dysphoria persist, attributed to an SEBGM member, from the AP article which was not considered ok to say what SEBGM is. The AP did not give all the research references because it is a newspaper article. There's an insinuation this statement by Malone is false, is it false?
Quoting legislation saying that SEBGM says something, and then someone else saying what the legislation quotes SEBGM for is not supported.
Quoting Mallory Moore's blog for what the world's leading scientific bodies think. And the controversial CAAPS statement.
Quoting SEBGM for something (accurate) in a review article in the literature and then a non-sequitur about an association--is this implying SEBGM said something incorrect? Did SEBGM say something incorrect?
(1) What is quoted and not quoted is not consistent with what else has been allowed on the page.
(2) Is one group criticizing another group for what SEBGM supposedly said.
(3) Why is this blog being quoted? Is this a reliable source?
(4) the "however" statement should be dropped. Yes, SEBGM was quoted for something in a research article, likely from its pages which have information on studies. That is correct. The other sentence just seems to be insinuating something?
(5) The statement about the memo is just incorrect and should be dropped. I see no reason to include the Florida opinion and not include those of AP or Medscape or others.
Some accurate statements about what the group is and does include:
SEBGM is "a nonprofit group of health professionals who are concerned about medical transition risks for minors" (AP)
SEBGM Advisor Mason has criticized the WPATH SOC8 draft saying " it is not evidence based." (Medscape)
SEBGM criticized the US HHS for not using evidence when it wrote its policies.
SEBGM Advisor Mason has co-written an editorial in the Wall Street Journal calling for a review of the evidence by the American Academy of Pediatrics. (Wall Street Journal)
Jdbrook, I think we need to start by evaluating your premise that there is no standard medical care for gender dysphoria. What is the basis for this claim? It doesn't seem to fit the available sources. If your position is that there isn't a standard because SEGBM (and its Genspect allies) defy the standard upheld by the vast majority of relevant professional bodies, that seems pretty PROFRINGE to me. Newimpartial (talk) 13:48, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Showing there is a standard is where the burden of proof lay, and it must be cited to MEDRS.
Frankly the entire article suffers from the issue of being in a weird limbo where because it is ostensibly just about an organization, it cites non-MEDRS and activist sources that we would never allow on articles about gender dysphoria itself. However, MEDRS applies to all medical claims. And the topic is difficult because there are striking and severe differences between national intelligentsias and media-classes on this matter (and some others). What one country considers mainstream another condemns as the views of misinformed rednecks and fundamentalists.
I don't know where we go from here. I suggest trying to edit the article to improve it where possible; we may need an RfC on the first sentence. Crossroads-talk-23:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting that WPATH is a non-MEDRS source for standards of care for gender dysphoria? That sounds like an EXTRAORDINARY claim that should not be taken seriously without evidence.
Also, while you have previously asserted that claims that aren't high quality MEDRS to begin with need higher quality MEDRS to offer criticism of them, I haven't seen any convincing evidence of community support for that view.Newimpartial (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I never suggested that. WPATH is a MEDRS, among many others. We should be focusing on that class of sources. Any sort of medical claim needs a MEDRS, yes. There is no exemption for 'debunking'. Many poorly sourced incorrect claims are not noteworthy to begin with. Further use of in-text attribution and more specificity, especially in the lead sentence, can also help. Crossroads-talk-00:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So which of the claims SEBGM makes has sufficiently high-quality sourcing that they should be presented (with attribution) in article text? I assume that the RSOPINION and legislative submission content don't make the grade; am I right?
(And lest you accuse me of straw-goating you in my previous comment, I will point out the many discussions on Talk:ROGD where you have insisted that higher quality MEDRS references be used to debunk claims than the sources that made the claims in the first place. I am not by any means fabricating that, and will happily present the relevant diffs if that is important to anyone.) Newimpartial (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial You keep asking the same thing over and over again. There are several different protocols in use for treating gender dysphoria. Which I have listed: Finland, Sweden, the UK's new guidelines, above. Now as of last week Florida, after an evidence review, and then WPATH and then the affirmative model which is not the same. If you agree with one, you disagree with the other. France is arguing to prioritize psychotherapy too. References are above. So you can say something is standard but it is not agreed upon. Whose standards?
As far as high quality sourcing, none of the medical evidence in this field is high quality, and very little is moderate quality, that is what the evidence reviews find. From the Endocrine Society to the UK NHS/NICE review to Sweden to the review of evidence reviews by experts at McMaster (home of evidence based medicine) that was commissioned by Florida. That is in fact the reason for the policy changes in these countries.
As for quality sources as to what SEBGM is, AP, Economist, Medscape are not ok for some reason...
Re: That is in fact the reason for the policy changes in these countries - I think you would be hard pressed to find indeoendent sources supporting your claim that recent changes in Florida or in the UK were based primarily on evidence based medicine. But some day, some way I hope that you will indeed produce such sources - which have clearly eluded you so far. Newimpartial (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Both of these reviews found the evidence to be low or very low certainty or quality, i.e., the studies cannot be used to reliably estimate outcomes. Given that the benefits cannot be established and the risks are significant, both the UK and Florida put restrictions on these medical interventions. Sweden did the same, it is not included in the Florida synthesis of reviews (by a professor at McMaster, which is where evidence based medicine was developed), because it was not in English, but here is its summary of recommendations: https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/globalassets/sharepoint-dokument/artikelkatalog/kunskapsstod/2022-3-7799.pdf The summary is in English.
Here is a salient quotation:
"For adolescents with gender incongruence, the NBHW deems that the risks of puberty suppressing treatment with GnRH-analogues and gender-affirming hormonal treatment currently outweigh the possible benefits, and that the treatments should be offered only in exceptional cases. This judgement is based mainly on three factors: the continued lack of reliable scientific evidence concerning the efficacy and the safety of both treatments [2], the new knowledge that detransition occurs among young adults [3], and the uncertainty that follows from the yet unexplained increase in the number of care seekers, an increase particularly large among adolescents registered as females at birth [4]."
They did the evidence reviews and then constructed their policies in response, that is how you do evidence based medicine.
The AAP seems to have refused to do an evidence review in preparation for their new guidelines https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/979262 and its previous guidelines (Rafferty et al. 2018) were based on misquoting the evidence (see the peer reviewed article by Cantor, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31838960/ ). And if you try to argue as some have in court that he hasn't treated gender dysphoric children, note that whether the AAP misrepresented its sources or not is independent of who checks, if they are doing it correctly.
Notably, the evidence review based and thus evidence based guidelines diverge from those of the AAP. That is, there is not a consensus right now.
You are citing Cantor as an authority again. Cantor is FRINGE (and was banned from enwiki for socking, as well). I'm not seeing any there, there. Newimpartial (talk) 02:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is completely irrelevant to Jdbrook's main point. Given that major medical authorities in some countries seem to agree with Cantor, FRINGE seems a rather strong descriptor. The US and Canada are not the whole world. Crossroads-talk-17:33, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read for content. I am not suggesting that all opposition to gender-affirming care is FRINGE; I am addressing specifically Jdbrook's reference to Cantor as an authority on the topic. Newimpartial (talk) 17:45, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another revision (reverted, yet again): a description of what someone said was taken out as "opinion"
@NewImpartial You took out the following:
In August 2022, SEGM Adviser J. Mason and a co-author said that the American Academy of Pediatrics has ignored the evidence regarding medical intervention for gender dysphoria. They called the AAP out for "effectively burying" a resolution asking the AAP to do an evidence review which would bring the AAP "into line with better-informed European countries."
This is what Mason says in the article. It's an opinion article by a SEGM adviser and she is making this public statement, this is absolutely correct.
It is fine to say "SEGM member William Malone told The Christian Post in 2019 that "No child is born in the wrong body, but for a variety of reasons some children and adolescents become convinced that they were"." but not to say that a person says something in the Wall Street Journal that they actually say in the Wall Street Journal?
If you think there is a reason to remove the Malone quote, then go ahead with my blessing. But I had understood that the passage in the article cited to The Christian Post was cited to actual reporting, but the bit you tried to add cited an unreliable WSJ WP:RSOPINION piece. Newimpartial (talk) 05:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The WSJ piece is what Mason actually said, in the WSJ opinion piece. The Christian Post is reporting what Malone said. I have no reason to think that The Christian Post is lying about what Malone said, but if it is appropriate to list what Malone says it is appropriate to list what Mason says. And it is difficult to argue Mason is not calling out the AAP, as that is exactly what the article she co-authored is doing.
@Newimpartial this section is about activities of the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine.
The essay in the WSJ co-authored by adviser J. Mason is one such activity. What is your basis for claiming that the article in the WSJ written by someone on the board of the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine is not an activity that Wikipedia should report?
It is only an activity Wikipedia should report insofar as it is covered in independent, reliable sources. Wikipedia editors are not supposed to engage in WP:OR about SEBGM's success or otherwise in using media and professional bodies to spread its message. Newimpartial (talk) 22:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What is your basis for claiming that the article in the WSJ written by someone on the board of the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine is not an activity that Wikipedia should report? It's a question of WP:WEIGHT and WP:OR. Per policy, Wikipedia articles are based primarily on reliable, secondary sources, as secondary sources are needed to establish notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. Mason writing an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal is inherently a primary source, and doesn't give us any information about how that statement has been regarded by the author's peers. Of the many words in Mason's op-ed, why is his comments on the AAP noteworthy? We cannot tell that from a primary source.
In the case of William Malone, if you check the citations you'll see that we never cite Malone's contributions to The Christian Post directly. We only do so via reliable secondary sources; BuzzFeed News and an ABC affiliate station. Those secondary sources provide us with some information to contextualise which parts of Malone's interview with The Christian Post were noteworthy to others. That said, it's definitely a weaker paragraph and seems out of place in the activities section. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9thThis section is about activities of SEGM. A WSJ editorial by a SEGM Advisor is relevant as it is a SEGM activity. The op-ed is entitled "The American Academy of Pediatrics’ Dubious Transgender Science," so yes, the AAP is the focus of the article.
Primary and secondary arguments for medical information are very different than talking about what an organization stands for or supports publicly. These are statements Mason plus co-author chose to appear in one of the most influential publications in the United States under their names. Asking that someone else tell you that Mason said these things in this op-ed, i.e., a secondary, is there actually any reason to doubt that Mason did not write these things?
Rewording the lead: "accused" of spreading misinformation
Can we just describe them as as spreading misinformation in the lead?
From just the content in this article, they:
1) Claim it's not conversion therapy when you do it to trans people (despite every medical organization in the world disagreeing)
2) Claim ROGD exists and use it as a basis for attacking transgender rights, when it doesn't and medical orgs agree it shouldn't be used
3) Claim most kids with dysphoria grow out of it, despite that having been debunked numerous times and the study they base it off even making a pretty large caveat
4) Have been described as spreading medical misinformation (or even pseudoscience) by multiple other researchers in the field, reliable scientific sources, and reliable sources in general.
Generally speaking, that they spew misinformation is pretty agreed upon by reliable sources and per WP:FRINGE we should describe it as such instead of making a false equivalency with "accused of spreading misinformation" and leaving whether or not it's misinformation up for question.
Would it be better to just update that portion of the lead to The group is known for spreading misinformation about gender dysphoria and gender-affirming care or a more detailed The group is known for spreading misinformation about gender dysphoria, gender-affirming care, and the scientific evidence base concerning transgender healthcare. They have mischaracterized current clinical best practices, supported the discredited theory of rapid onset gender dysphoria, and claimed that conversion therapy can only be applied to LGB people, not transgender people. SEGM is routinely cited in anti-trans legislation and court cases, sometimes testifying directly? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:04, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all. I have found several sources that may be helpful in rebalancing the SEGM article. Many sources point to information that does not currently appear on the SEGM page or redefine the organization from a different perspective in light of the backlog of information about transgender issues. All publications are from reputable sources, written by independent journalists.
Anyone interested in participating, please take a look:
The Economist is 1 paragraph detailing a statement from Will Malone. It is already referenced, but could be used to include Malone claiming big pharma and gender ideology are behind trans healthcare and it's similar to the opioid epidemic.
AP News and Malone's statement there is already referenced.
Newsweek and the WSJ are opinion pieces and can't be used.
Medscape is already heavily referenced.
The Guardian article does not mention SEGM at all and is irrelevant.
The WBUR clip and KHN source talk about how even SEGM said Biden wasn't pushing surgeries. Not sure if this is especially due but might be. The second source is better for this.
The journal articles are published by SEGM and their reception has been noted in the article. That being said, I have been thinking a publications section may be prudent.
Hi, ParisDakarPeräjärvi! Thanks for sharing! I will double-check those articles above and share my second opinion. From first glance, the page for SEGM looks on a very negative side and doesn't remind me of a well-balanced and neutral Wikipedia article. It seems like you've shared a list of articles that are worth considering. Cidertail (talk) 16:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Cidertail@ParisDakarPeräjärvi, why can't a WSJ opinion piece and Newsweek piece be used? It seems an essay on an organization's web page is being used ("Mallory Moore")? I would think Newsweek and WSJ, both well known mainstream publications with editorial processes, would both be more reliable than some organization's publications? Otherwise, it sounds like Genspect's essays and publications are also acceptable? This would be very useful to know.
I'm unclear why anyone is claiming that SEGM misrepresents the evidence base for transgender care. There's a recent investigative report out by the British Medical Journal (peer reviewed and commissioned) and it seems to agree that the evidence base for medical treatment is unreliable (https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382) . The lack of evidence is also being noted by Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/ ("Across the United States, thousands of youths are lining up for gender-affirming care. But when families decide to take the medical route, they must make decisions about life-altering treatments that have little scientific evidence of their long-term safety and efficacy.")
These investigative journalists seem to be agreeing with SEGM's pages which say "We are an international group of over 100 clinicians and researchers concerned about the lack of quality evidence for the use of hormonal and surgical interventions as first-line treatment for young people with gender dysphoria." https://segm.org/about_us
Newsweek and the WSJ are WP:RSOPINION pieces, not news articles. What content do you even want to add from them? Genspect and SEGM have a reputation in RS for blatant misinformation, Trans Safety Network does not. Not to mention, Genspect and SEGM are not WP:INDEPENDENT organizations, they're the same people switching outfits.
Since you're unclear why anyone is claiming that SEGM misrepresents the evidence base for transgender care.
They claim that conversion therapy doesn't count when practiced on trans people (a position that literally every medical organization and human rights group in the world disagrees with)
They say trans people under 25 should not be able to transition
In short, a bunch of blatantly anti-trans misinformation and WP:FRINGE nonsense
The BMJ and Reuters article you linked are WP:OR, and even if they weren't, they don't endorse any of the ridiculous things SEGM supports (such as claiming it's not conversion therapy when you do it to trans people, legislating for even trans adults to not be able to transition, etc). Quoting SEGM's about us page is useless, as we base the article on what reliable sources have to say, not a selective interpretation of their own mission statement. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 04:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rapid onset gender dysphoria is considered enough of a serious hypothesis that the French National Academy of Medicine and the Dutch have both referred to it (in recommendations and in a published paper, respectively). From the latter: "More studies using both self and parent report measures would be needed to gain better insight in the existence of the ‘ROGD’ subtype." So, it seems SEGM isn't alone in taking it seriously as a hypothesis.
I don't see that SEGM supports conversion therapy. Exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy. There are a bunch of case studies where people who identify as trans realize that it was due to something else (gender dysphoria is not one thing), and they find out through therapy. Not conversion therapy, which isn't therapy at all in fact.
SEGM does not support ex-gay conversion therapy. They believe that many trans identifying individuals are actually gay. Article as written is slander and false. 69.138.246.176 (talk) 16:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conversion therapy is internationally recognized as applying to gender identity as well as sexual orientation. The article does not say they "ex-gay conversion therapy" at all, it clearly says "gender-identity". SEGM's claim that trans people are actually gay has no basis in fact and no bearing on the discussion. Historically speaking, there has never been an instance of "kid says they're gay, therapists try and force them to be trans", while the reverse, "kid says they're trans, therapists say they're not and try and force them to be gay", has actually happened. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed changes for SEGM to balance the article
I checked the articles and found that the page does not currently appear to be neutral and many reputable sources show this (
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]
).
As a result, I want to make these additions to the article:
to Summary:
Extended content
SEGM has also been described as a non-profit organization of health and research professionals[1] that questions the "gender-affirming care" approach to gender dysphoric adolescents, a hotly-debated topic in North America and some parts of Europe in a number of prominent and independent publications, including Medscape,[2]The Associated Press, Wall Street Journal,[3]Newsweek[4] and others.[5][6][7]
SEGM questions the science behind the recommendations to use puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and subsequent surgery for gender-dysphoric youth, and particularly the AAP recommendations to use these interventions as the first line of treatment for minors presenting with gender dysphoria.[2][8][9][10]
SEGM is named among the organizations, as well as a growing number of European and American physicians, opposing the "informed consent" model of care for young people. Under this alternative model of care for gender dysphoria, mental health assessments for youth are not required and hormones can be provided after just one visit following the collection of a patient’s or guardian’s consent signature.[11][12][13]
to Activities and positions:
Extended content
In the article published by The Economist, an endocrinolist and a board member of SEGM William Malone compared the ongoing gender-indentity medical debate with the opioid crisis in the US: “William Malone... sees parallels with previous medical scandals, not least the opioid crisis. There is a mix of “Big Pharma, a vulnerable patient population, and physicians misled by medical organisations or tempted by wealth and prestige”, he says. But now there is gender-identity ideology on top. “We are completely saturated with corporate influences and lobby groups,” says Dr Malone. “The only way they will be halted is if a massive number of people are harmed and they get together to sue the people who harmed them.[5]
to Activities and positions:
Extended content
In "Early transgender identity tends to endure, study suggests," published by the Associated Press on May 3, 2022, journalist and medical writer Lindsay Tanner cited SEGMs advisor Dr. William Malone's opinion opposite a five-year study published online in Pediatrics: “that early social gender transition may cement a young person’s transgender identity, and lead minors on the path to eventual medicalization, with all its inherent risks and uncertainties.”[1]
to Reception:
Extended content
Former top Food and Drug Administration official David Gortler criticized the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) for releasing a document titled "Gender-Affirming Care and Young People." In an article published in Newsweek magazine, Gortler stated: "...Puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for gender transition are all off-label, non-FDA-approved use... “Likewise, the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) fact-checked HHS' document[14]...It raised concerns over the manner the guidance was developed, noting its inadequate literature review, biased recommendations that do not acknowledge the low quality of evidence it relies upon, failure to consult a range of views—such as those for whom "gender-affirming" care was not beneficial—and failure to identify or acknowledge alternative treatments.”[4]
to Reception:
Extended content
An author of Irreversible Damage Abigail Shrier in The Wall Street Journal criticized American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) for for suppressing the gender dysphoria debate and trying to marginalize dissenting organizations like SEGM. Shrier quoted Julia Mason, a pediatrician, SEGM board member and AAP fellow: "The AAP is “working very hard to give an appearance that everything’s been decided and there’s no debate. The growing numbers of detransitioners suggests that [pediatricians] don’t really know what we’re doing in this case". The same author quoted another SEGM's researcher:" “When the home of the Nobel Prize in medicine stops transitioning children as a matter of general practice, and pulls it back into tightly controlled research settings, is this not a wake-up a call for the rest of the world?”"[3]
to Medical Community:
Extended content
SEGM has been described as an organization opposing the medical approach of "informed consent" among minors with gender dysphoria in a Medscape article, "Transgender Teens: Is the Tide Starting to Turn?". In the publication authors Becky McCall and Lisa Nainggolan expressed concerns about growing number of gender dysphoric youth who are challenging mistaken decisions as teenagers to accept medical treatment that including puberty blockers, cross-gender hormones, and double mastectomies, noting the particularly notable case Bell v Tavistock case.[2] The authors also noted: "In the UK, such surgeries are reserved for people over 18, but in the US, double mastectomies have been performed on children as young as 13 years old".[2][15][16]
to Medical Community:
Extended content
In October 2022, Kaiser Health News, criticized political advocacy group founded by Stephen Miller for funding a false ad campaign based on the assumption that "“Joe Biden and the New Left even promote surgery on teens and young adults, removing breasts and genitals,” the ad claims. KHN received an email from SEGM "condemning false ad campaign" and stated: "Even leaders of the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine, who are wholly skeptical of the acceleration in gender-affirming care, said “it is not accurate to say that the Biden administration is pushing these interventions on kids.”[17]
Starting with just the lead editions, which are a complete misreading of the sources, WP:OR, and WP:FRINGE apologia
source 1: it's already described as a non-profit, we could perhaps add that they're composed of "health and research professionals" to the lead.
for that questions the "gender-affirming care" approach to gender dysphoric adolescents, a hotly-debated topic in North America and some parts of Europe in a number of prominent and independent publications, including Medscape,[2] The Associated Press, Wall Street Journal,[3] Newsweek[4] and others.[5][6][7], the whole section is WP:OR and WP:FRINGE
The scare quotes around gender-affirming care are not neutral, and "hotly debated" is not supported by sources
source 2: provides SEGM sigcov, with muliple experts saying that SEGMs positions are WP:FRINGE
source 3: an WP:RSOPINION piece that quotes a bunch of SEGM members is neither WP:DUE nor supportive of "hotly debated"
Source 4: another opinion piece
Source 5: is not WP:SIRS coverage, it contains 1 quote from 1 SEGM member
Source 6: Doesn't mention SEGM once...
Source 7: is another opinion piece, that doesn't mention SEGM once
SEGM questions the science behind the recommendations to use puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and subsequent surgery for gender-dysphoric youth, and particularly the AAP recommendations to use these interventions as the first line of treatment for minors presenting with gender dysphoria[2][8][9][10]
for a start, this is already covered in the lead by SEGM opposes informed consent for transgender healthcare for people under the age of 25 and is known for mischaracterizing standards of care for transgender youth
Source 2: does not mention the AAP at all
Source 8: does not mention the AAP, nor SEGM, once. Blatant WP:OR
Source 9: does not mention SEGM once, and is a commentary letter
Source 10: mentions neither SEGM nor the AAP...
SEGM is named among the organizations, as well as a growing number of European and American physicians, opposing the "informed consent" model of care for young people. Under this alternative model of care for gender dysphoria, mental health assessments for youth are not required and hormones can be provided after just one visit following the collection of a patient’s or guardian’s consent signature[11][12][13]}
Informed consent is not an alternative model, it is the recognized model
Source 11: doesn't mention SEGM once
Source 12: is written by SEGM... hardly WP:INDEPENDENT. Apart from the disclosure of affiliation, it also doesn't mention SEGM once.
Source 13: once again, doesn't mention SEGM once...
While the editor @TheTranarchist was banned from editing pages related to gender, my comments here for further escalation with more neutral editors who are ready to verify independently the sources i found and make their own unbiased conclusion. TheTranarchist automatically puts another opinion as "fringe" and doesn't recognize a growing number of sources that are opposite to their biased opinion. This is not how Wikipedia and policy on neutral editing works. All I want is to see that the sources on this page are used properly and without distortion of the facts, and that the information is balanced. It is absolutely necessary for independent researchers and editors to get involved in this situation. I believe there is a need to appeal as well.
:* for that questions the "gender-affirming care" approach to gender dysphoric adolescents, a hotly-debated topic in North America and some parts of Europe in a number of prominent and independent publications, including Medscape,[2] The Associated Press, Wall Street Journal,[3] Newsweek[4] and others.[5][6][7], the whole section is WP:OR and WP:FRINGE
::: The scare quotes around gender-affirming care are not neutral, and "hotly debated" is not supported by sources
::: source 2: provides SEGM sigcov, with muliple experts saying that SEGMs positions are WP:FRINGE
::: source 3: an WP:RSOPINION piece that quotes a bunch of SEGM members is neither WP:DUE nor supportive of "hotly debated"
::: Source 4: another opinion piece
::: Source 5: is not WP:SIRS coverage, it contains 1 quote from 1 SEGM member
::: Source 6: Doesn't mention SEGM once...
::: Source 7: is another opinion piece, that doesn't mention SEGM once
1) It is clearly supported by the sources and they are listed there. This is not a logical argument when you are clearly trying to distort the facts and refuse to accept the most notable sources I found.
2) Second, there is no justification for your to use labels on my research such asWP:FRINGE, WP:RSOPINION and WP:DUE - it is very easy to verify the information that I retrieved and rewritten from the same independent sources. Again, you simply reject unfavorable to your opinion agenda but allow a lot of sources on the page to express an opposite opinion. Isn't it exactly against the Wikipedia policy on neutral unbiased editing?
:* SEGM questions the science behind the recommendations to use puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and subsequent surgery for gender-dysphoric youth, and particularly the AAP recommendations to use these interventions as the first line of treatment for minors presenting with gender dysphoria[2][8][9][10]
::: for a start, this is already covered in the lead by SEGM opposes informed consent for transgender healthcare for people under the age of 25 and is known for mischaracterizing standards of care for transgender youth
::: Source 2: does not mention the AAP at all
::: Source 8: does not mention the AAP, nor SEGM, once. Blatant WP:OR
::: Source 9: does not mention SEGM once, and is a commentary letter
::: Source 10: mentions neither SEGM nor the AAP...
This is not covered properly with clearly negative review of the organization. While I recognize the criticism, there is no consensus on the topic and many sources confirm it. Also, it is not understood, while the summary is full of criticism but cannot include a more neutral summary of the organization? Many respectable sources do not name SEGM as "fringe" or else. Second, there is no source that indicates SEGM doesn't recognize "transgender care" for people under 25, so again - a distortion of facts.
Third, there is a lot of opinion pieces on this page used against the organization and you gladly used them. It is all about the opinions of the journalists, so you selectively cherry picked the negative opinions and refused to accept the alternative opinions. This is simply playing with the facts.
And TheTranarchist: never commented on the other sections I shared but simply removed them with no justification.
Ok, taking this bit by bit. Starting with the sources related to your first point.
Source 2, per policy we need to discount a lot of the words said by Malone on behalf of SEGM. He makes claims about third parties (ie Endocrine Society, Abigail Shrier, Keira Bell), and the small amount of information he does say about SEGM is pretty self-serving. Conversely there are multiple experts within the piece who do describe the organisation as existing on the fringes of medical research, with one directly stating [SEGM] are very much outside the mainstream.. There's very little Medscape put into their own editorial voice, so at best we could use this article for attributed statements made by those interviewed within.
Source 3, it's very clearly an article that's subject to WP:RSOPINION, as the WSJ prominently mark it as an opinion article. At best we could use this to say something like "Abigail Shrier said X about SEGM", but there's absolutely no content here that we could put into wikivoice.
Source 4, another opinion, so subject to the same policy.
Source 5, this has a single paragraph, with the majority of content being quotations from Malone. When looking at the non-quotation text, at best all this article could support is that SEGM are a non-profit, who see a parallel between trans youth healthcare and previous medical scandals like the opioid crisis.
Source 6, does not mention either SEGM or Malone.
Source 7, this appears to be another opinion article, so subject to the same policy as sources 3 and 4.
Now looking at the content that it was proposed these sources support.
that questions the "gender-affirming care" approach to gender dysphoric adolescents First off, the scare quotes part of the Manual of Style would apply to putting gender-affirming care into quotation marks. None of the sources really support this insofar as text they have put into their own editorial voices.
a hotly-debated topic in North America and some parts of Europe seems unsupported by all except maybe Medscape, and even then it's only tenuously supported.
in a number of prominent and independent publications, including This is pure textbook original research and synthesis. We are forbidden by policy to put text like this into articles, unless strong secondaryreliable sources have said it. None of the sources provided support this assertion.
On your second point, WP:FRINGE, WP:RSOPINION, and WP:DUE are not labels applied to editors. They are shortcuts to relevant policies and guidelines that apply to all content on Wikipedia. In particular, DUE is part of the non-negotiable NPOV policy, and all content must comply with it. Where I've said "very clearly an article that's subject to RSOPINION", that means that we're talking about a very clearly marked opinion article and not factual reporting. We have very clear guidance for how to handle such content, at that shortcut. I am not going to comment on you simply reject unfavorable to your opinion agenda, except to say that it is a personal attack against another editor who cannot defend themselves. Please remember to not personalise discussions in this manner, comment on the content, not the contributor.
Now for the sources related to your second point.
While source 2 mentions several organisations and trans healthcare providers, the AAP is not mentioned.
Source 8 has no mention of AAP or SEGM.
Source 9 is a commentary letter made by Annelou de Vries, a child and adolescent psychiatrist at Amsterdam University Medical Center. While it was published in the AAP Pediatrics journal, it's unclear as to whether or not it was peer-reviewed. In these circumstances, at best it could be used for opinions of de Vries. Neither SEGM nor Malone are mentioned in the letter.
Source 10 is a research paper by Kenneth Zucker. There is no mention of SEGM or the AAP in the article.
Three of the sources, 8-10 are unusable for any content about SEGM. All four sources are unusable for any content about the AAP. When looking at the proposed content, none of the sources support it, making it unverifiable text. If you wanted to include the proposed sentence, you would need to provide reliable sources that are secondary or tertiary to SEGM that clearly and unequivocally state this. Once those sources are provided, then we can start to look at whether there is due weight to describe the organisation in those terms, or whether such a description would be a instance of false balance.
On the point relating to SEGM opposes informed consent for transgender healthcare for people under the age of 25 that is an accurate representation of Malone's words, on page 8 of source 2.
With regards to there is a lot of opinion pieces on this page used against the organization, in the current version of the article there are 31 sources. Of these, I've only been able to identify three opinion articles, citation numbers 25, 29, and 30. Looking at the content they support:
25 is supporting a sentence relating to Van Mol, and an attributed quotation.
I'll be removing the sentence relating to Van Mol, and re-attributing the quotation to make it clearer that the quotation is the words of R.V. Scheide and not of the publication.
Taking 29 and 30 at the same time. 29 is an open letter to the Polish Society for Psychodynamic Psychotherapy. It's being used to support attributed quotations from the letter in relation to SEGM. 30 is a related statement by the Polish Sexological Society. It's being used to support an attributed sentence relating to that statement.
Because this paragraph lacks secondary sourcing, I will be removing it. I have no objection to re-adding it however if any secondary reliable sourcing, in either English or Polish, can be provided.
If there are any other opinion articles currently cited, could you please provide links to them so that they can be checked?
In relation to the other sections, TheTranarchist did comment on them, just in the edit summaries where the content was reverted. If you want to see her justifications for the removal, just click here and here, and on a desktop web browser her comments will be underneath the links to her talk and contributions pages. In my opinion however they have many of the same problems as the first.
The first proposed addition to "activities and position" is cited to a single opinion article.
The second proposed addition to the same section is puffery of Malone, and only tangentially related to the topic of this article. This is not an article about the study published in Pediatrics, and Wikipedia is a collection of random quotations by article subjects or those directly related to them. Information on Wikipedia must be kept in context, and this addition tells us nothing about the organisation itself nor its activities. Just that someone quoted from their founder.
The first proposed addition addition to "reception" is cited to content on SEGM's website, and an opinion article in Newsweek. The same point that I made about Wikipedia not being a collection of random quotations also applies to this. As before, this does not tell us anything about the organisation nor its reception, just that they've been quoted.
The second proposed addition to the same section is cited to an opinion article in the Wall Street Journal. As with my previous point, this does not tell us anything about the organisation nor its reception, just that the opinion article's author cited them.
The first addition to "medical community" has one secondary source, the Medscape article, and two journal articles that do not mention SEGM and so are unusable. The quotations relating to the Bell v Tavistock judgement are off-topic for this article. The sentence relating to SEGM's opposition to informed consent is already included in the article.
The second addition to the same section is already covered in the article. It was re-written slightly by TheTranarchist when she removed the other non-policy compliant sections, but it is currently in the article in a manner that is roughly policy compliant.
I realise this is a very long reply, but hopefully this is helpful to understand why TheTranarchist, Filiforme1312, Madeline, and myself all have now objected to the proposals, and which policies and guidelines that I (and likely the others) feel they contravene. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cidertail: though TheTranarchist is now subject to a TBAN, WP:BANREVERT does not apply to edits made prior to a sanction taking effect.
On the merits of the content you wish to include, I agree with what TheTranarchist has written here. There are significant policy problems with the proposed content, as explained above. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:52, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Sideswipe9th! Are you sure you've had time to get up to speed in such a short time? I ask because I spent hours analyzing the subject. This article is obviously non-neutral. Even the very first sentence contains a negative assessment instead of an unbiased description. My attempt to suggest changes and discuss them with TheTranarchist got me nowhere, but I am willing to discuss it anew as I want to continue working to improve the article. Cidertail (talk) 23:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, your proposed changes have been on this talk page for over a week. I would have replied then, however TheTranarchist had already covered everything I would have said with respect to the policy issues surrounding the proposed content, so I saw no need, and with no further replies from yourself there was no obvious need to continue the discussion.
With regards to the first sentence of the article, that fairly reflects how SEGM are covered in reliable sources. While SEGM and their supporters might consider it non-neutral, it is nonetheless complaint with our core content policies as it is verifiable and fully NPOV compliant as it reflects the balance of how reliable sources discuss and cover this organisation. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid it's hard for me to agree with you. The first phrase is The Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is an activist non-profit organisation that is known for mischaracterizing standards of care for transgender youth and engaging in political lobbying using misinformation which contradicts the evidence base around transgender healthcare.
The only fact is that SEGM is an activist non-profit organization. All other statements, regardless of what the sources say, are not facts, but estimates and views. An article may have it in the Criticism section, but not in the first sentence.
The transgender care for youth is a hot and controversial topic, because it involves bodily integrity and the detransition phenomenon, and there's nothing good about having an unbalanced article that presents the organization of doctors as a conspiracy of transphobes.
And that's just the first sentence. The entire article gives a biased impression of the organization and the sources in it will not stand up to the criticism that was directed at the ones I suggested. They are misused or manipulated, and the organization's position is distorted. Cidertail (talk) 01:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What we're discussing here is something that a lot of editors struggle with. How can content on a person, organisation, or topic be either positive or negative, while still being neutral? Aren't we supposed to have no strong feelings, one way or the other? The reason editors struggle with this is because what Wikipedia policy means when it says All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view is different from how most people would describe neutral content. Following the NPOV policy means that we are neutral in our editing, and not neutral in our content.
In practice, what this means is that follow carefully what reliable sources say about any given article subject. If all reliable sources say the subject is good, then we state that it's good. If instead they say that it's bad, we state that it's bad. If sources are mixed, then things get a little more complicated. First we need to look at and assess what the majority, minority, and slim minority viewpoints on the subject are. Then we need to balance those perspectives, in doing so we must make sure that the article treats each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For the bulk of the content in the article, this means that it will follow the viewpoint of the majority of sources on the subject, while also containing some content on the significant minority viewpoint in relative proportion to that viewpoint's prominence in reliable sources.
While that might look like non-neutral content to a reader or editor who has a contrary opinion on a subject, it is nonetheless neutral within the way that we define neutrality on Wikipedia.
Now, bringing it back to this article. As I said before, I believe that this article fairly and accurately represents the mainstream view on SEGM. As an organisation, SEGM are opposed to the standard gender affirming care model of transgender healthcare, and in their opposition they have mischaracterised that model of care[11] and promoted discredited and unsupported theories like rapid-onset gender dysphoria and conversion therapy. Because of their departure from the mainstream view with regards to transgender healthcare, they have received a lot of criticism from both the press and academia. Within the realm of what we consider reliable sources, there is pretty much no positive coverage of the organisation that I'm aware of, and what does exist does not raise to the level of dueness such that it would be considered a significant minority viewpoint by our NPOV policy.
At the end of last month, TheTranarchist made a series of comments on the content you've suggested adding to the article, and the sources proposed to support it. Now while she obviously cannot contribute any further to this discussion, I would nonetheless be interested to hear your response to those points. In particular I would like to hear why you believe sources that fail verification should be used to support content that they cannot support, and how at minimum the sources that are verifiable constitute towards there being a significant minority viewpoint in support of the organisation and its activities. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th, I commented under the TheTranarchist's comments and I cannot understand how Medscape, The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek or The Associated Press are not accepted while other much less known websites or blogs are allowed to express their opinion. Again, there is no consensus on the topic - it is still debated and there is a growing numbers of sources that oppose "established status quo" - I just brought a few of them. Also, I'm going to launch the full revision of this page. I'm not the supporter of the SEGM but I can't accept the fact that some sources are allowed to use and the others (the eligible ones) are rejected. Also, I'm going to place a tag on this page until this dispute comes to a resolution - there is an undue weight to one opinion here and we are very far from neutral use of sources on this Wikipedia page. Cidertail (talk) 14:28, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As it stands the article reads "[SEGM] is a non-profit organization known for opposing standards of care for transgender youth and engaging in political lobbying"
This is obviously not written from a neutral point of view.
"Known" to whom? "Standards of care" - which standards?
Why did you remove the fact that SEGM is an association of healthcare professionals?
You state that this description is supported by the sources, but in an academic context you would generally be expected to source each claim, especially if it is disputed. Is wikipedia different? Are readers supposed to sift through every source to find the ones supporting the claim in question? Abardill (talk) 23:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent some time reviewing this and will echo Thetranarchist and Sideswipe9th's concerns and request for a direct response to them. Pending consensus, I would suggest refraining from this overhaul, including in piecemeal. This topic area is especially prone to misunderstandings of WP used to bring articles in line with the subject's self perception. Filiforme1312 (talk) 21:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Its a little unclear if this post is meant to address the addition of WP:NPOVD. In the interest of clearing the tag, concerns with existing content should be specifically detailed with corresponding WP. A new thread or section may be warranted.
Corresponding NPOVD section:
Drive-by tagging is discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.Filiforme1312 (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From a variety of sources, some scolding the organization and some favorable, the former have been carefully selected. As for style of speech, I have already cited as an example the very first phrase, in which there are a lot of value judgments and few facts.
Seriously, I think the editors who read this discussion got a first and false impression of the organization from this article. But basically, all this article is a competent skillful denigration.
For example, it says here that SEGM proposes to ban transgender transition until the age of 25. Any normal person would be outraged by this, and any attempt I make to question the article's accuracy will always look like an attempt to clean up a transphobic organization.
However, SEGM is not a transphobic organization, although there are certainly sources who consider it so.
Nevertheless, the organization's primary sources state that they support LGBT people and trans people in particular. That every adult person has the right to do what they want. They just have their position on how to deal with gender dysphoric youth who want a gender-affirming surgery. And we know that the US, UK, Norway, Finland, and other countries use various approaches in this regard. And SEGM's position is not marginal and is not alternative medicine (the article, by the way, is included in such a category).
Nevertheless, any my attempts to make changes are blocked. Even my edit where I changed the short description from "Organization opposing transgender rights" to "Organization in the field of transgender youth healthcare" was rolled back.
Wikipedia is about cooperation and consensus, not political windmill fighting. I hope for a little more attention to my arguments, because it seems to me that the article should adequately reflect the organization and its views to give us a chance to reasonably accept or reject them - and not a caricature of them. Cidertail (talk) 23:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it says here that SEGM proposes to ban transgender transition until the age of 25 Yes, that is verifiable content. SEGM opposes the informed consent model for trans healthcare for all transgender people under the age of 25. That comes from the exact words of the organisations founder.
Nevertheless, the organization's primary sources state that they support LGBT people and trans people in particular. How the organisation describes their activities is not an accurate determiner for how they are perceived by others. Wikipedia policy states that Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. What is important to us, as editors, is representing how the organisation is described in secondary sources. How the organisation describes its activities would only really be relevant in a juxtaposition for how they have either succeeded or failed in meeting their self-described goals, and would require strong reliable sources who made that same juxtaposition before it could be included.
SEGM's position is not marginal and is not alternative medicine As I quoted in a related section above SEGM have been described by multiple experts within their field as existing at the fringes of medicine. No comment on the article being in the alternative medicine category, except to say that if there is a consensus for it then it should probably be in Category:Alternative medicine organizations per WP:CATSPECIFIC.
Nevertheless, any my attempts to make changes are blocked. Specific reasons have been given, by myself and TheTranarchist, when reverting your proposed additions to the article. Those reasons are based on relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines that apply to all content added to Wikipedia articles.
I hope for a little more attention to my arguments I do not see any non-attentive dismissal of your arguments and proposals. Multiple policy reasons have been given for why the content cannot be placed into the article. In addition, where you have pointed out policy non-compliant text, I have removed it from the article. I believe that other editors are giving fair attention to what you are saying, they are just disagreeing with it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it says here that SEGM proposes to ban transgender transition until the age of 25. Any normal person would be outraged by this...
Youth is not synonymous with Minor. Youth is generally understood to end at 25 in the US.
The source for this is clear irt Malone's views on age, cognitive development, and what forms of gender affirming care are inappropriate under 25. It names HRT, GnRHs, hysterectomies and surgery generally. This does not stop SEGM from engaging in advocacy for bills banning healthcare for a lower age, which may be the source of confusion. Filiforme1312 (talk) 00:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ROGD "discredited" in lede
This overly-strong wording has been reinstated numerous times in the last few days, based on a single primary source that does not use the word "discredited". This is more than just paraphrasing, and into WP:OR.
I dunno if I would go so far as to say that it's WP:OR. Discredited does seem like a reasonable if very strong summary of the independent literature on the hypothesis. No studies independent of Littman have actually found any evidence to support it. And like the other studies, the full text of the cited source does state that it's findings do not support the hypothesis. At some point, unless something changes, we will have to start using language similar to this to describe the hypothesis.
But, the edits were originally made by an editor who has since been CU blocked as one of our LTAs. I'll restore controversial for now, but this seems like something that'll be raised again at the ROGD page, at the very least this is another study to include in that article's text. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Discredited” is more than loaded. The use of this kind of terminology is further evidence of bias in this article.
Since it is a descriptor of an actual phenomenon it cannot be “discredited”
what is up for debate is the REASON teen girls are presenting with an ROGD pathology. For that research is needed, and has not been done.
researchers researching the ROGD phenomenon would then posit various hypotheses and ways to test them. Those can then be proven/disproven.
Hypotheses could include social contaigeon OR a new presentation among girls who suffered sexual abuse OR growing awareness of FTM gender identity OR chemicals in the water OR increased unrealistic pressure on girls to conform to reactionary sex based stereotypes OR a pubescent hormonal phenomenon hitherto unrecognized… those would be the hypotheses to “discredit”
the fact of girls who displayed no tendency for gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia until puberty is not “discredited”. It has been observed and documented. ROGD is a proposed name and proposed diagnostic cluster. Jennpublic (talk) 00:17, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To elaborate, you may believe in ROGD. The field of medicine, overwhelmingly does not. Wikipedia reflects medical consensus. Snokalok (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I support "discredited" over "controversial", since there's basically zero supporting evidence for it at this point. Loki (talk) 20:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read The Guardian article I cited? Do you understand that The Guardian, like the New York Times, is considered a reliable source in its reporting? It reports on the FACT of the exponential rise in trans-presenting natal female teens, the lack of consensus on cause, the problems clinicians and the NHS face in untangling what is going on. The rise in trans identifying teen natal females IS NOT discredited. The NHS Cass report takes it very seriously.
what exactly are you saying is “discredited”? Please read full article (which is not an editorial piece) before responding. I will also post you the link to the Cass Report which is an official UK govt report. Jennpublic (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Enough said in the many discussions here. This article is exactly what WP is not for: a place to grand stand opinions, to defame and formulate attacks to make a veil of validity over them as “unbiased fact”
the tiny number of contributors are blocking all attempts to remove bias from the article
this Article is not salvageable and should be removed. Whether one supports or does not support the position of SEGM, then if a WP article is needed, it should be written from the ground up. Right now the current editors are basically squatting on this page to air their POV.
And you believe this, entirely because the authors stated the overwhelming medical consensus which is that SEGM pedals in medical misinformation and unsupported theories? Snokalok (talk) 03:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Request for major rewrite
Hello Sideswipe9th. It appears that this article requires significant revision in order to adhere to an encyclopedic format. As it stands, the article largely consists of a collection of quotes, which is in violation of MOS:QUOTE. Moreover, the EARWIG tool has indicated a 57.4% - violation possible score, suggesting a potential copyright violation.
In light of these concerns, it would be beneficial for us to engage in a discussion to collaboratively revise and improve this article. Colaheed777 (talk) 17:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, while Earwig is saying it's a possible violation, at closer inspection the hits seem to be primarily coming from names of individuals and organisations, and some lengthy quotes that are in the article. The former is unavoidable as there's only really one or two ways you can name a person or organisation.
On the later, we should look at paraphrasing the portions of quotes where possible. For example we could rephrase:
The Yale School of Medicine issued a report which stated "The core members of SEGM frequently serve together on the boards of other organizations that oppose gender-affirming treatment and, like SEGM, feature biased and unscientific content. These include Genspect, Gender Identity Challenge (GENID), Gender Health Query, Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics, Sex Matters, Gender Exploratory Therapy Team, Gender Dysphoria Working Group, and the Institute for Comprehensive Gender Dysphoria Research."
to something like:
A report issued by the Yale School of Medicine stated that 14 of SEGM's core members often work together on the boards of other organizations that oppose gender-affirming healthcare who "like SEGM, feature biased and unscientific content". Other such organisations include...
In the ellipsis at the end, we could look at including only those organisations that we consider notable (ie those we have articles on), or we could continue the quotation to include the list as previously. In this example, the only content that we're close to putting into Wikivoice is uncontroversial stuff, ie that SEGM board members frequently serve on the boards of other organisations that oppose gender-affirming healthcare, while leaving the potentially controversial bit on bias and unscientific content in an attributed quotation.
Thank you for the input. Yes, the article does require partial revision, particularly converting quotes into concise encyclopedic prose to address potential copyright concerns. Your proposed format works for me. Colaheed777 (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the report more deeply, it largely only flags it because of the frequent use of standardized terminology and phrasing. Not worth a rewrite Snokalok (talk) 22:34, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I so appreciate @Colaheed777 jumping in with an offer to guide a major revision. But immediately, those invested in WP:BIAS of this article are jumping in, and terms like “unscientific” are immediately up with folks looking to find a way for their inclusion.
“Major rewrite” to me means starting at first principals, with a standardized structure and intro, and writing style that is fact only (without the digs), and consistent with other advocacy organizations in this area… on both sides.
IMHO when an article like this has been written as an obvious hit job, the rewrite should be total and the original writers taken off the case. Someone with no skin in the game, and proven track record of encyclopedic writing should be delegated.
allowing the original writers to squat this article and revert every edit should have consequences those users, to deter this behavior.
I believe that certain editors of this article need to refresh on WP:Point, WP:Listen and Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. There is more than enough back-and-forth editing because of certain POVs that, in my and apparently many other opinions in this Talk thread, should cease; especially and particularly the introductory paragraph that has excessive subjective language and is against Wikipedia policy for unbiased, neutral editing. As everyone reading this and the article itself knows, this topic is highly controversial and there is no consensus on what is right or wrong; certain sources are from provenly biased organizations. Using an opinionated WSJ article as a source to make a point could easily be rebutted with an opinionated one from Fox News; it's a matter of point of view. I started my Wikipedia account to assist in grammar and proper wording specifically, and seeing this kind of pissing match is disappointing when so many people disagree with one another. Just keep it neutral. WyntersMyst (talk) 05:49, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree. I also joined WP with intent to just improve grammar and such, on the assumption that WP was an authentic collaboration of people trying to collate objective information to create a reliable source in itself.
Although this is a minor article on a minor organization, it is articles such as this which are dragging WP down to a “pissing contest” (as you aptly say) … of folks trying to enforce their POV as fact. Jennpublic (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I may have worded that last part strong. I hope I did not break any policies here; it's just to clarify what this looks like to the general public. Wikipedia, as you said, looks less reliable with extremely biased opinionated phrasing. It's unnecessary and you wouldn't find it said like that in an encyclopedia; therefore it shouldn't be here.
Using an opinionated WSJ article as a source to make a point could easily be rebutted with an opinionated one from Fox News; it's a matter of point of view. – the difference is that the Wall Street Journal is considered generally reliable on all topics, including politics, while Fox is not. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)19:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not the point here. That was just an example. Again, you're generalizing based on opinion and in no way sound neutral. I could point out facts that WSJ has gotten wrong to you, but that's not the point of Wikipedia. WyntersMyst (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article is near WP:LBL status because of how biased it sounds in certain sentences. My point is being missed once again. Forget I mentioned Fox News. I was only saying to keep the wording neutral. I didn't delete anything that makes SEGM look bad, just changed wording so that it isn't making Wikipedia look like they hold a subjective opinion. WyntersMyst (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, after more consideration, I have to agree with you regarding your own point of neutrality with sourcing; but that was not my point, just to clarify. WP:NPOV's (your own source as well as mine when starting this subsection) states verbatim: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Again, forget me mentioning Fox (either way, regardless of anyone's personal feelings about them, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources specifically lists Fox News as "generally reliable" for straight news reporting and "unclear" with politics).
Let me be clear; I did not join Wikipedia to argue political points of view, but to assist with improper grammar and biased wording/phrasing in a multitude of topics. When I see something like "SEGM falsely claimed" or "SEGM mischaracterizes" in the introductory paragraph, I immediately want to correct it into something that appears less opinionated. When doing so, I never quoted Fox News; that would just lead to arguing and turn into WP:SNOW in the end. If everyone could remain neutral, professional and cordial as editors regardless of their political/personal beliefs or feelings, everything could be much easier. WyntersMyst (talk) 01:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Request for comment
I intend to promote this article to the "Good article status", as it is an important topic and we should cover it thoroughly. I started researching it a few weeks ago and discovered some additional coverage which we can use to expand the article. To get an impartial opinion, I'm starting this RfC:
The lead paragraph of this article is mainly supported by citations from publications such as: The Advocate, Medscape, Clinical Practice in Pediatric Psychology, Yale report, and Trans Safety Network. However, upon closer examination, the accuracy and reliability of these sources come into question.
1. The Medscape citation fails WP:V standards as I couldn't verify the statement.
2. The Clinical Practice in Pediatric Psychology has since retracted its quoted statement, rendering it invalid (retracted link). I'm, therefore, removing this statement.
3. The Advocate's is merely a brief mention of SEGM and its inclusion in the lead is undue. The characterization of SEGM as a "biased group" or "not a recognized scientific association" is also contestable due to the newspaper's natural bias and should be attributed.
4. An article from Science-Based Medicine (its Wikipedia page describes it as a "blog"), is authored by AJ Eckert, a trans doctor. As a result, their viewpoint may be subject to potential bias. This statement is undue in the lead and should be attributed within the "Reception section".
6. Another reference used is by Trans Safety Network which isn't a publication but an activist organization registered as a CIC in the UK. It is an opinion and therefore should be attributed and placing it in the lead is unwarranted.
SEGM has been discussed positively in major publications, like The Economist described it as "an international group of concerned clinicians" on 5 April 2023, a non-profit group on 28 July 2022, an international group of doctors and researchers on 12 December 2020, so the current description is not justified. Some other publications like AP News describe it as a "nonprofit group of health professionals who are concerned about medical transition risks for minors" on 4 May 2022, The Australian described it as "A new international watchdog, the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, which includes clinicians with expertise in gender dysphoria" on 1 May 2020 and as "new global body" [12].
So, coming to my question. Should we describe SEGM as "It is not recognized as a scientific organization by the international medical community" in the lead based on brief mentions in The Advocate, opinion of spokesperson in Medscape, or description in local publications like WyoFile that cites some other source for that description. In my opinion, it is ill-defined when reliable sources like The Economist, The Australian, AP News describe it differently. I tried to find such mention in scientific organizations/watchdogs that may have officially described SEGM in this manner. However, upon further research, no such statements from specific organizations could be identified.
Thus, we should work on revising the lead paragraph to present a more objective and neutral perspective, avoiding the selective use of quotes. This will ensure that the information provided is both accurate and reliable, in accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines. Colaheed777 (talk) 20:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I can see that you've added an RfC tag, and I commend that you wish to bring this article to GA status, this doesn't seem to be structured in any way like an RfC, and it fails WP:RFCBRIEF. As such I've removed the RfC tag.
As for the points raised.
On the Medscape source, is your issue one of source access? I have access to it and it does meet WP:V for all the content it is supporting.
If the paper has been updated and no longer supports the statement, no issues removing it
The Advocate is one of three citations for the sentence. The Medscape and WyoFile sources also support the assertion that SEGM is operating far outside the scientific mainstream in this field.
Per WP:SBM Science-Based Medicine is considered a generally reliable source, with a credible editorial board and robust editorial guidelines. No concerns about bias of the source or contributors to it have been raised in previous discussions.
Though mentioned in the lead, we only directly cite the Yale report in the affiliations section. For its mention in the lead, we actually cite it through secondary reporting. Not sure why we need to attribute this beyond what we've already done.
The use of the Trans Safety Network piece in this article was discussed at RSN in June 2022. The content that citation is supporting in the article body is already attributed to them. Mallory Moore is considered a subject-matter expert in this area, and the content in the lead that is attributed to her is in my opinion due, as it is cited by others (in this case Science-Based Medicine).
While I recognise that there are a small number of organisations that have described SEGM positively, those that do so are general media sources. Subject specific reliable sources, like Medscape, Science-Based Medicine, as well as relevant experts, clinicians, and researchers in the field overwhelmingly describe them in negative terms. The current descriptors, that they operate outside of the medical mainstream with regards to transgender medicine, and that they are not recognised as a credible scientific organisation, seem to be more accurate when considering how the organisation is described in the highest quality sources available. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:48, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
More directly on the point of bringing this article to GA status, focusing on fixing the lead first is backwards for how we write good articles. Rewriting an article lead as part of a drive to bring an article to GA or FA status is the final step. Initial efforts should be spent on bringing the article body up to standard first, and only once the article body is in its roughly finalised state should rewrites of the lead be considered.
I am here following an RfC request. As stated by User:Sideswipe9th this is not structured as an RfC.
Their point that the lead reflect the article is also true - so we have to develop the article first.
Also thanks for beginning work on this.
I think you have made some good points but these needs further discussion before an RfC to distill the questions at issue (if any remain after the discussion).
I think this statement will possibly turn out to sum up the area of debate.
"While I recognise that there are a small number of organisations that have described SEGM positively, those that do so are general media sources. Subject specific reliable sources, like Medscape, Science-Based Medicine, as well as relevant experts, clinicians, and researchers in the field overwhelmingly describe them in negative terms."
Comment: I agree with the point made above by responding contributors about this not being properly structured and submitted as a request for comments. But, more importantly from where I stand, to respond to what Colaheed777 wrote in the initiating section, I'd be very conservative about promoting this article to a GA status before the text is cleared of everything that gives cause to the protest about it violating WP:NPOV. So, first things first. We have quite a ways to go before we can even entertain the ambition for a GA status. -The Gnome (talk) 08:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I warned Koenig for edit warring, asking that they start a discussion here. I then expanded this as WP:V had been met as the Vice report clearly states that the Yale report describes SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists, and that the report itself was cited in the article body, and directed KoenigHall to the relevant paragraph that was being summarised in the lead. So far they have not responded, and have not opened a discussion here so I'm now starting one.
KoenigHall, will you please self-revert your second removal of this content from the lead? It is reliably sourced, and is verifiable to both the source that was along side it, as well as to the report itself that is cited in the article body. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:36, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sideswipe9th My edit was reverted by User:LilianaUwU .Please check reference, [6] (in the lead), which doesn't, and.neither does the vice news article, link to the report. The link in vice news fails, gives an error. No reason to presume edit warring. (Also note "standards of care" are not scare ""- in Europe this is standard string designation of a name or a citation, also in many programming languages). KoenigHall (talk) 21:06, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The report says, in page 28 (emphasis mine): A contextual examination reveals that SEGM is an ideological organization without apparent ties to mainstream scientific or professional organizations. Its 14 core members are a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities – a fact that the SEGM website does not disclose. And considering their ties to Genspect et al, it should be obvious that they're an anti-trans group. LilianaUwU(talk / contributions)21:12, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Vice article does pretty clearly state the Yale School of Medicine published an article in April that calls out the Society of Evidence-Based Gender Medicine as a small group of anti-trans activists. While it is regrettable that the link in the Vice article to the Yale report is broken, there is no requirement in WP:V or WP:RS that a a given reliable source must provide supporting citations in their own content. In fact, it is very rare for a WP:NEWSORG like Vice to do so. For example, this BBC article contains no such external links for its claims, but would be perfectly valid to cite in a relevant article about the Russian-Ukraine war.
Thankfully though, our article does cite the report. As I said on your talk page, citation 24 is to the Yale report, and is used alongside the content in the medical community section that the lead was summarising. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sideswipe9th Clearly, you are intentionally citing a reference (vice news) that you are aware of presents an incorrect citation of the text in the report. The lead text needs to be corrected.
The flawed chain of citations, and a fact that is not verifiable by a reader of the lead since the link, in vice news, as you state yourself, ls broken, may constitute an act of vandalism, in particular since this is in the lead section. Please correct the lead statement. Please also, refrain from public unwarranted accusations when you in fact are clearly aware of the flaws of the text that is being edited. KoenigHall (talk) 08:46, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly, you are intentionally citing a reference (vice news) that you are aware of presents an incorrect citation of the text in the report Are you saying that the Vice report is stating something that the Yale report does not?
The flawed chain of citations, and a fact that is not verifiable by a reader of the lead since the link, in vice news, as you state yourself, ls broken, may constitute an act of vandalism Firstly vandalism has a very specific meaning on Wikipedia. A broken link within a citation is never considered vandalism, as that content is entirely outside our control. Nor, by the way, is it considered vandalism if a link to a citation is suffering from link rot. Secondly, it isverifiable through the Vice report that the Yale report described SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists, through the content I've already quoted. That alone is sufficient to meet WP:V. As I said before, there is no requirement that a reliable source must within its content provide supporting citations for the content they are asserting. We rely on the reputation of the source, whether it's a newsorg, journal article, report by a NGO, or anything else, for fact checking and not publishing falsehoods when assessing the reliability of a source.
Please correct the lead statement. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that we should add our known working link to the Yale report, alongside the Vice report? Or are you asserting something else entirely? Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can I ask that we all assume good faith here and work collaboratively even when it doesn’t feel everyone else is.
Sideswipe9th The lead text that the yale report [7] "described SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists" (vice news citation [6]) contradicts the actual text in the Yale report [7] (citing your own citation taken from [7] above) "Its 14 core members are a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities". The text in the lead, said to be from the source [7], is contradicted by the source [7] (and your own words) [7] . Please correct. KoenigHall (talk) 19:47, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@KoenigHall: Correct it how? Those two sentences are synonymous. An anti-trans activist by definition is a person who engages in anti-trans activities. However, this discussion would proceed much easier if you propose replacement text, so how would you like this sentence to be phrased? Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:54, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which said of SEGM that "it's 14 core members as a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities" [7] KoenigHall (talk) 20:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. This seems to be changing the meaning of the report, by leaving out context. The report seems to assert that SEGM is smaller than it claims to be, as in this quotation from the report: Although the SEGM site claims “over 100 clinicians and researchers” as members, it lists as “clinical and academic advisors” a group of only 14 people, many of whom have limited (or no) scientific qualifications related to the study of medical treatment for transgender people. The Vice report seems to be a fair summary of the scepticism expressed in the report about the group's actual size. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think this can be dismissed just as “a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities".
The people involved are above and beyond that (and I’m not even sure what an “anti-trans activity” is in this context).
However you do need to offer your (cited) idea of what the finished ‘product’ should look like…. Which is what is being suggested by User:Sideswipe9th
If you do that we can discuss and if we can’t reach a consensus that’s the point at which you can go to an RfC - which is where I came in Lukewarmbeer (talk) 20:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lukewarmbeer Not sure I understand. There seem to be a new issue here? Are you opposing that the text, as it now stands, should cite the Yale report for saying that the SEGM members are anti-trans activists? Perhaps one should defer that to a different thread. My point is that the citation of what the source [7] says, that "SEGM is a small group", is not correct, and my amendment would this, and only this faulty element of the citaton. It may well be that other editors would request further changes of the text, but at the minimum the text should not misrepresent what is actually stated in the source [7], My suggestion was to simply cite the actual text, eliminating the misrepresentation. A more concise summary with a similar meaning, albeit not literal citation, could be "Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine described SEGM as a group with an active core of only 14 anti-trans activists" [7] KoenigHall (talk) 20:43, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th Including the issue raised by @Lukewarmbeer I therefore suggest that the text be edited to read
@Lukewarmbeer@Sideswipe9th The lead has to mirror, preferably summarize, essential content in the body text, and so the body text referring to the Yale report that is then repeated in the lead needs to be changed too.
I will presume we have a consensus on the core message of the WP:LEAD text discussed above (albeit perhaps not on detail), and, in good faith and a NEUPOV, tomorrow suggest an edit of the body text which retains the diversity of judgements revealed here.
The Yale Research report [6] does not state that SEGM is small group and the vice news article [7] only mentions SEGM briefly, in passing, with a WP:V erroneous citation of the Yale report statement. It was claimed (Sideswipe9th) that the vice news citation is a "fair summary" of the Yale report on SEGM, but these conclusions suffer from WP:SYNTH issues.
On the notion of "fair" judgements, it is unlikely that there could ever be a WP:RS for a claim that SEGM is a small group. It may be noted that a recent campaign letter, circulated by the "FAIR" organisation signed (WP:V) by almost 2000 individuals, has, as highlighted signatures listed at the top, a number of noted SEGM associated leaders, and also amongst the body of letter signatures from individuals called out by Trans-activist sources as affiliated with SEGM. To compare, the campaign letter it opposed was circulated amongst WPATH members had about 300 signatures and WPATH is an organisation with a membership base of tens of thousands. It is therefore "fair" to say that It contradicts WP central values to present a most likely false statement on the subject of the article, in the lead text. KoenigHall (talk) 21:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we need a modification of the body but we seem to be at cross purposes.
Let’s get this straight for me. The Yale article I’m reading says “ Its 14 core members are a small group of repeat players in anti-trans activities”.
If I'm reading this right, KH seems to be objecting mainly to the "small group", which is covered by Vice but not actually supported by the Yale report. Would everyone be ok with "Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which described the core of SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:42, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FirefangledfeathersI can accept that, since it correctly refers to the Yale statement,
(eventhough I agree with @Lukewarmbeer that the "anti-trans activists" is not well defined, with a defaming connotation and therefore WP:UNDUE to appear in the lead. I therefore suggested the "repeat players" as the Yale statement mentions, which also then includes the Yale researchers' key takeaway. I am actually also not happy with the "report" description of the researchers' letter. It carries too much of a characterization that there was a study with a WP:V methodology and source, which it clearly does not).
@Firefangledfeathers would you clarify, do you not agree to using "repeat players" instead of "anti-trans activists" or are you suggesting it in order to attain consensus? KoenigHall (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
<< (Would everyone be ok with) "Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which described the core of SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists"? >> KoenigHall (talk) 13:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi LWB. I think there's a reasonable distinction between "the group is small" and "the core of the group is small", and I think the Yale report is making the later point. I could reasonably say of a hypothetical group that it has eight million members, but its core is a small group of dedicated activists. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:27, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are effectivly saying 'Yale said' so I would much prefer to use their actual words rather than an unnecessary interpretation of what we think they meant.
I worry I'm being pedantic too! To ground my point one more time: I'm hoping to accommodate part of KH's proposal as a compromise. KH's proposal also includes a shift away from describing the activists as anti-trans and to just calling them "repeat players", which I think makes it much less informative. I'm not strenuously opposed to the status quo, but I'd prefer the small tweak I suggested above. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:11, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which described the core of SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists" That works for me as an adequate summary in the lead.
The paragraph in the medical community section looks like it would need only a small tweak to something like In April, Debra Kroszner of the Yale School of Medicine issued a report in response to the attacks on transgender healthcare in Arizona and Texas which described the 14 core members of SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists... Changes in italics, rest of the content in the paragraph is left unchanged. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unsourced and invalid information about SEGM in the lead
This discussion has been running for a week and is now going in circles. Further discussion without additional sources or voices is unlikely to be productive. There is clearly no consensus that any of the information in the lead is invalid or unsourced. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Sideswipe9th The statement in the lead that Stella O'Malley is the sole founder of Genspect is not supported by the reference given in the lead. It is also not referring to any consensus content in the body text, and not relevant to the lead which is about SEGM. Please do not revert edits that intend to secure accurately sourced content in the lead without checking. Please therefore check and revert your "undo" yourself until consensus is reached on the relevance and that the source given is WP:RS.
There are further inaccurate and unsourced statements in this lead that need immediate correction; in particular undue unsourced value statements. They need immediate correction to be in line with WP intent for reliable content. KoenigHall (talk) 11:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said on your talk page, I did preform a check prior to reverting into whether there was more founders for Genspect than O'Malley. In doing so I checked Genspect's website, social media presence, and third party reliable sources about that organisation. I also checked both Genspect's and O'Malley's respective articles. In doing so I could not find a single source that said there was any founders other than O'Malley, and O'Malley being the sole founder seems to be adequately sourced in both of those other articles. In third party sources in particular, whenever O'Malley is introduced it is almost always as some variation of Genspect's founder Stella O'Malley and notGenspect co-founder Stella O'Malley or Stella O'Malley, one of Genspect's founders. As such, it appeared as though you had introduced unverifiable content, which per policy we are to remove. And as being a founder of an organisation is typically uncontentious, that it is verifiable is fine for our purposes here. Because self-reverting would reintroduce unverifiable content, I will not be self-reverting in this instance.
If you know of sources that exist that assert there were other founders than O'Malley, please provide them at the Genspect talk page first, so that we can correct that article, before looking at updating related articles like SEGM. Sideswipe9th (talk) 11:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th The reference given in the lead does not give the information claimed. Please give a WP:RS reference if available. Your opinion in the edit history is not WP:RS, not relevant, neither is what you "can find", as you must be aware this is WP:SYNTH. Please revert KoenigHall (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple citations for this already exist in both Genspect's and O'Malley's articles. But if you want a specific example, please see citation 24 from O'Malley's article, which clearly states Stella O’Malley, a psychotherapist and the founder of Genspect.
If there are other founders for Genspect, then as the editor who is seeking a change to the content the burden is on you to provide a reliable source for the change you wish to make. Stating that I could not find reliable sources to support your assertion in an edit sumamry is neverWP:SYNTH. Not only does SYNTH only apply to the article space and not talk page discussions or edit summaries, SYNTH requires there to be two or more sources being joined in an improper manner to reach a conclusion that neither supports alone (ie A + B = C).
Instead it is a simple statement of fact that, prior to restoring the content that is supported, I preformed a Google search to see if there were any sources that supported the fact that Genspect had at least one more founder than O'Malley. Having found no sources, I reverted the content to a version that is supported by sources. KoenigHall if you are aware of a reliable source that states O'Malley was not the sole founder of Genspect, can you please provided it on the Genspect talk page so that we can correct that article first, before correcting related articles like this one? Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“If there are other founders for Genspect, then as the editor who is seeking a change to the content the burden is on you to provide a reliable source for the change you wish to make”
This applies to the ‘whole thing’ User:KoenigHall You will have to do some research if you want to make these edits stick. Otherwise you will just get reverted - wasting your time and that of other editors
@KoenigHall: In my reply at 14:15, 29 May 2023, I posted a link to an article by The Daily Telegraph, alongside a quotation from that article, both of which were taken from O'Malley's biography. Can you confirm that you can see the link, and that the quoted text appears in that article? Can you also confirm that the quotation states that O'Malley was the founder of Genspect, and not a founder or co-founder? Does this source meet the criteria for being reliable?
Secondly, I have repeatedly attempted to search to find a source that states that there were any other founders for Genspect and have not been able to find any. Reliable sources that describe the founding of Genspect, like the Telegraph article I posted yesterday, only mention O'Malley. At present you are the only editor stating that there were other founders for Genspect than O'Malley, and you are seeking a change that departs from what both the Genspect and Stella O'Malley articles state in relation to Genspect's founding. If you are aware of a reliable source that names or describes any other founder(s) for Genspect, could you please provide it? This would save us a lot of time, as otherwise we seem to be searching for a needle in a haystack. Sideswipe9th (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sideswipe9th I have no intention to be unreasonable and search for "needles"". Bit these issues are not trivial for a number of reasons I will not dwell on here. The question is whether you have an adequate WP:RS in the reference, not in the TALK discussion. 1) Is O'Malley's or Genspects words about themselves to be allowed as WP:RS in the lead about SEGM? Is this your definite stand?
2) Are you saying that your citation in a TALK response relieves you from the burden of correct referencing in the lead? What is the reason for this obscurity? (My confirmation and discussion of your citation is irrelevant as long as you don't use that citation as your WP:RS reference in the lead. Respectfully, KoenigHall (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still confused as to why we need a citation for this. Being the founder of an organisation is usually, but not always, an uncontroversial fact. That it is adequately cited in both O'Malley's and Genspect's respective articles that O'Malley is the founder (and not a founder or co-founder) of Genspect is, in my mind, sufficient for our purposes here. As such I'm trying to be mindful of WP:OVERCITE and MOS:LEADCITE, at least for something that should be uncontroversial. By all means we can include a citation to the Telegraph article I linked earlier, or one of the others we have available on the other articles, but I'm still not entirely sure why we need it.
Are you saying that your citation in a TALK response relieves you from the burden of correct referencing in the lead? No. MOS:LEADCITE tells us that non-controversial information which is mentioned in an article's lead does not always need citations. O'Malley being the founder of Genspect is to me pretty non-controversial. It is also information that is more than adequately cited in the Genspect article. That it is both an uncontroversial fact, and something that is verifiable through the dedicated article on the organisation, is sufficient in my mind that we don't strictly need a citation here for this. Otherwise we would need citations for every job title/role, in every article, that mentions a contextually prominent individual. For example an article on UK politics would require a citation every time you said something like ...former Prime Minister Liz Truss[x]....
Bit these issues are not trivial for a number of reasons I will not dwell on here. It feels as though we maybe have to, if not dwell on, at least touch upon what those reasons are either here or on Talk:Genspect. Is there some sort of off-wiki dispute over who the founder(s) of Genspect are that is relevant here? What is the circumstances here that is making this a controversial enough fact that we need to go against MOS:LEADCITE? Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Firefangledfeathers (I missed that you restructured the reference - thanks). In reference [11], however, it is not clear where the information is coming from - the journalist is citing words of the anonymous mother being interviewed, so [11] is not a WP:RS for the claim. Reference [10] doesn't mention the claim. Removing the claim should be pretty straight forward to align the lead with strict WP requirements. KoenigHall (talk) 10:17, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When the article in The Telegraph describes O'Malley as "a psychotherapist and the founder of Genspect", it is not citing the words of an anonymous mother. It is using the paper's own voice as it's about to quote O'Malley herself. I think the source is reliable for the claim, and we don't require our sources to cite their own sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Firefangledfeathers Yes, that is an iterpretation but note that a) this is a "special correspondent", not the Telegraph, and as such should reasonably be judged as an opinion piece and b) We can't take the a quote of O'Malley's about herself as a WP:RS. KoenigHall (talk) 21:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm sharing two links to the discussions on Trans Safety Network's use on Wikipedia. Trans Safety Network is another activist organization defined as CIC in the UK - shor for "Community Interest Company". Therefore, I suggest removing some of the statements in the reference #9:
1. and Mallory Moore stated they have "ties to evangelical activists".[9]
Comment: no link as well - just a statement
2. In it, they advanced the controversial idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which suggests a subtype of gender dysphoria caused by peer influence and social contagion. ROGD has been condemned as unevidenced and nonscientific by the majority of the worlds' major psychological bodies.[9][13]
Comment: the definition of the ROGD here is not a good example for neutral writing as this "term" is disputed and there is no sense to push anyone's agenda here
3. SEGM is closely affiliated with the non-profit organization Genspect: Julia Mason, Marcus Evans, Roberto D’Angelo, Sasha Ayad, Stella O'Malley, Lisa Marchiano, and Avi Ring are advisors for SEGM and are on Genspect's team or advisors; O'Malley is the founder of Genspect.[10][25][9]
Comment. While I don't dispute this, I assert that it's very usual for scientists and academics to be part of multiple organizations simultaneously. The question is, "Does it count as affiliation between two organizations" if some individuals are members of both organizations at the same time? This is something I'm curious about.
4. Trans Safety Network (TSN) reported that NHS pediatrician Julie Maxwell has been an advisor for SEGM since its inception; that Maxwell also works for the Christian anti-LGBT and anti-abortion sex education charity LoveWise UK and has offered to help push abstinence-based and anti-LGBT sex education in schools; and that since 2012, Maxwell has been a member of the Family Education Trust, a campaigning charity that promotes anti-LGBT views. TSN also reported that in 2019, SEGM Secretary William Malone co-authored a letter challenging the Endocrine Society's clinical practice guidelines on transgender healthcare with Michael K Laidlaw, Quentin Van Meter, Paul W Hruz, and Andre Van Mol, who are all members of the SPLC-designated anti-LGBT hate group the American College of Pediatricians. In addition, Van Meter is a board member of the International Federation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice (IFTCC), an organization that openly supports conversion therapy for LGBT people. TSN reported that these authors frequently cite and collaborate with each other.[9]
Comment: This claim is the most contentious as it's highly disputed and solely based on one source - the same LGBT activist organization. Does the WP:BIAS policy not apply here?
5. In August, Trans Safety Network described SEGM as "an anti-trans psychiatric and sociological think tank" and fringe group and reported that most of SEGM's funding came in donations greater than $10,000.[25][9]
Comment: The situation is the same here. If I were to use SEGM (another activist organization or "research institution" as they claim) as a source for the Trans Safety Network, would it be accepted as an unbiased source? I believe the same principle should apply here.
Most importantly, here is the blatant case of one organization criticizing another one for funding. At the same time we do not know the funding of Trans Safety Network, which is an activist organization too. Doesn't it raise a BIG RED FLAG for anyone here?
Here are the links 2 discussion about TNS (the first is the most recent one):
I've undone one of your removals, specifically point 3. All of the sources for that section assert a link between the two groups, as does the Yale School of Medicine report, in no small part because of the shared membership and advisors. The Yale report in particular draws attention to how the core members of SEGM frequently appear together of other fringe anti-trans organisations like Genspect. Though speculation on my part, what is unusual here is that by having so many organisations that share the same active participants, there seems to be an inflation in how many anti-trans organisations are active. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On point 2, the description of ROGD is both factual and neutral. As the sources in our article about the controversy make clear, the proposed theory has no factual basis. No researchers that are independent of Littman have ever been able to replicate her findings, and have instead largely found evidence that runs counter to its proposed subtype. The final sentence is necessary per WP:FRINGE, given that it seems to be a pseudoscientific at worst, and disproven at best. I'm not seeing a particularly compelling reason for removing that paragraph. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On point 4, could you be a bit more specific as to which claim is the most contentious and highly disputed please?
Chunking it by sentences, the links between Maxwell and LoveWise UK seem to be confirmed by the editorial note on a Christian Today article written by her. That the seminars she has delivered on behalf of the organisation push abstinence-based and anti-LGBT sex education in schools seems to be verifiable, both through the TSN source directly as well as the sources that TSN cite. That Malone co-authored a letter challenging the Endocrine Society's clinical guidelines doesn't appear to be controversial, nor is the descriptor of ACPeds given that it's properly attributed to the SPLC. Van Meter's links to the IFTCC seem to be freely available on the IFTCC website, and that organisation's support for conversion therapy is well evidenced and documented.
As with the content I restored on point 3, on the surface this seems to be documenting the well evidenced connections between SEGM and other anti-trans and anti-LGBT organisations. So yeah, what exactly is the problem here please? Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1) I get your point about the retraction of citation 3. Just for your information, the document you refer to as the "Yale School of Medicine Report" isn't actually an official report from Yale School itself: [13]
Here is the official disclaimer on the first page of the report:
This report reflects the academic work of individual Yale faculty and does not
represent the views of Yale University, Yale Law School, or Yale School of Medicine.
We are talking about an opinion of some members, which is not an official position of the school and they clearly indicate that in their disclaimer - please, take your time to verify it.
Now, let me start with something interesting: Trans Safety Network is in fact an active LGBT organization operated by a Community Interest Company (CIC), which is managed by four officers. Please. take your time to verify it here: [14], [15], [16]
In the RSN discussion, many editors raised concern about the use of Trans Safety Network for contentious or unattributed statements - please, check it here: WP:RSN#Trans Safety Network
In particular, here is one editor wrote (with whom I mostly agree):
This looks like a group blog more than anything else; I don't see any evidence of editorial policies, fact-checking policies, editorial policies, et cetera. We still need to evaluate editorial control, and looking through the website I can't find any evidence of there being any semblance of editorial oversight. Their values page doesn't mention anything related fact-checking or editorial independence, nor does their about page. Absent some sort of editorial review process, we're left with something that's essentially a self-published group blog. And it's not one that is run by University professors or other sorts of people with the sterling credentials of subject-matter experts; the director seems to have written very little outside of TSN, and Mallory Moore (another frequent contributor) seems to tout only previous publications on TruthOut in her TSN bio, but there doesn't appear to be all that much on her TruthOut author page. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:56, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the citations and the use of TSN were discussed in detail. Now specifically to your questions
2) On point 2, from what you wrote I cannot see how the topic of the opinion on ROGD belongs in the SEGM and not on ROGD page:
"In it, they advanced the controversial idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which suggests a subtype of gender dysphoria caused by peer influence and social contagion. ROGD has been condemned as unevidenced and nonscientific by the majority of the worlds' major psychological bodies."
The sentence predominantly clarifies the contentious concept of ROGD, seemingly steering readers towards a particular viewpoint. A more balanced approach might be to state:
" According to various sources, the controversial notion of ROGD" - a statement that ensures neutrality. Also, I am firmly against the practice of incorporating subjective views on other topics on the organization's website. Readers possess sufficient intellect to navigate a separate page and comprehend the term independently, without external guidance.
3) On point 4, yes, I'll be more specific. The main issue here that all these members are automatically defined as "anti-LGBT" , which is stated as a fact proven in courts but it is an opinion piece published by an active LGBT organization, not by the New York Times or a scientific publication.
So, it is one LGBT active organization criticizes the other opposing organization but defining its members as "anti-LGBT". Doesn't it raise any red flags on neutrality and non-biased sources per Wikipedia's requirements? The problem is not the text but the source. Please, check the RSN discussion.
Just to mention, I've meticulously gone through the Talk Page and discovered substantial reasoning from various editors who believe this page isn't aligned with Wikipedia policy. I'm currently crafting an analysis for the Lead section, which I plan to present here and on the NPOV NoticeBoard next week. This is intended to prompt a broad discussion involving all editors who are interested in enhancing this page. I cordially invite you to join in as well.
Hi, I just removed about 5k bytes of quotes from this article. Some can be re-incorporated, but not all, and ones that are paraphrased should be done without too closely paraphrasing. I'm not familiar with the article subject, but if I threw off the neutrality, that was not my intent. Sennecaster (Chat) 05:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored some of this content now, paraphrasing what I can and trimming where appropriate. There's maybe a little more that can be restored here if we're careful. I ran a quick copyvio check on the current reversion (at time of writing) of the article. It's still a bit high across multiple sources, but a lot of the hits seem to be coming from proper names now rather than full copyvios. There's a few more close paraphrases that might need addressing, but some of these terms and ideas have very limited ways of conveying the same information without changing meaning.