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would you like to publish this article? -- Zondor 22:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
(Posted out of sequence)
The aim is to place this article on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates at the start of the new year.To do that, it must satisfy the Wikipedia:What is a featured article criterion. See also Wikipedia:Featured articles. Banno 20:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
This is also an opportunity to develop Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy policies, in particular Article Format and Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/geographic divisions Banno 20:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
comments welcome Go for it! 00:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English. 1996:
Even sticklers for the traditional rule can have no grounds for criticizing sentences such as I don’t know where she will end up or It’s the most curious book I’ve ever run across; in these examples, up and across are adverbs, not prepositions.
In this article, it's "made of" - the "of" is an adverb to describe "made", not a preposition. Infinity0 23:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
No, that would be "made from" in which case the "from" is also an adverb. Infinity0 23:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
May I quote you?? "wikipedia is read by normal people, who don't care about these intricacies". If you really feel this way, I would say that you have no business editing at WIKI. Whether it is an adverb (questionable) or preposition (consensus), it is not good grammar. Amerindianarts 23:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
It is a rule of English grammar. "of" is a preposition in any dictionary and is not cited as an adverb. If you use it as an adverb, then it is displaced and is representative of either colloquialism, euphemism, idioms, or slang, which are such intricacies that don't belong in an encyclopedic format. The sentence you have quoted above is not something that is written in an encyclopedic format. Quoted maybe, but not as content. I suppose you would say that in the sentence "Where is this road going to" that "to" is an adverb? Why not just say "Where is this road going?" "Going" already states the infinitive "to go", so why be awkward and redundunt by restating "to" (I believe this is a close example of one of your samples in an edit summary). The sentences don't say the same thing and represent cluttered thinking. By the way, it is "indefinite", and not "indefinate". If you think these little intricacies don't mean anything at WIKI, you are wrong. And if you think these little intricacies don't mean anything in philosophy where clarity (unclutteredness) of thinking is essential, you are very wrong.Amerindianarts 00:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Language is subjective. In a few decades, nobody will give a shit, because it will become accepted grammar. These arbitrary rules are made by PEOPLE, and since most people understand "what is this made of", it's therefore not wrong. This is in no way deferring from the actual meaning of the phrase, and it doesn't make thinking "cluttered" at all. At least not for people with a working brain able to process variations in word-order, anyway. Infinity0 00:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Infinity0, from time you make posts that seem designed to convince everyone who reads them that you are a fool. I suspect you are only young, and will outgrow this habit. If, on the other hand, you are old and still think like this, then there is no hope for you. I've been following the debate on Template: Philosophy and believe you can make serious contributions to wikipedia if you will only reign in your tendency to defend foolish ideas. Read Eats, Shoots, and Leaves. Rick Norwood 14:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Great - first day, and we have an edit war over a trivial issue. GOMO, folks.Banno 20:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
The main thing missing from this article is a History of Eastern Philosophy to parallel the History of Western Philosophy. Also, I think both histories should be short, with references to history articles. There is already a "History of Western Philosophy" article, and there is a good deal of history in the "Eastern Philosophy" article.
I am going to attempt to improve the article as it stands, but I will go slowly and wait for comments and corrections after each change. Rick Norwood 21:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've reworked the opening paragraph. I'm going to stop, now. But I though this would be a good place to put some quotes that I am certain belong in the article somewhere:
"In the beginning was the Logos." - John 1:1 "The ways that can be walked are not the eternal Way; the names that can be named are not the eternal name." Lao Tze "Experiment and observation is the sole and ultimate judge of the truth of an idea. It is not philosophy we are after, but the behavior of real things." Richard Feynman, "Perfectly Reasonable Deviations from the Beaten Track".
Maybe you could start a quotes section? I don't the the HGG quote is very well placed, it's right at the start. Infinity0 22:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Turning to the Motives, Goals, and Methods section, the discussion of China and Persia but not India seemed a major omission. But as I added a few words about India, it struck me that the inclusion of history here is really not part of the stated topic, and the various history sections scattered throughout the article really need to be gathered together in one place. Rick Norwood 15:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I just edited the Beginner's section in the Bibliography to add ISBN numbers and to convert it to Harvard-style citing and alphabetized. Now, what I want to know is if people like that? The ISBN numbers are an obvious improvement, but I personally like the style of the rest of the Bibliography more than what I changed it to... The diffference is:
What do you guys think? --Michael (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The most obvious problem with the article is the bifurcation into East and West. This is an example of systemic bias in that it is a Western distinction; it is explicit in several places in the article and implicit elsewhere. It goes against Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/geographic divisions.
It can be written out fairly simply, by treating the traditions and schools in roughly equal terms. Banno 18:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I recommend shortening this section, especially considering that there is already a substantial article at History of Western philosophy. More discussion of philosophy outside Europe is needed. Banno 18:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Every time the intro gets shorter, I like it better. P.S. Thanks, Infinity0, for correcting my bungled attempt at fixing the spelling. Rick Norwood 21:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
1) Do we follow the outline of the article as it is now or the outline by Go For It! or some other outline.
2) Do we keep Eastern and Western philosophy under separate heading or try to combine them. If the latter, what organization do we use, since strict chronology is hard to determine. Who should be covered first, Kung Fu Tze (551-479 BCE) or Pythagoras (582-496 BCE)? Neither set of dates is certain. If chronological, do we jump back and forth between cultures based strictly on dates?
Rick Norwood 20:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Everybody and his brother seems to be out and about on Wiki this afternoon. Rick Norwood 21:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind, please, that this was considered a good article before we started working on it. If we want to improve it, we need to go slowly, and work together, not change everything as fast as we possibly can, throwing out whole sections at a time without any discussion. Rick Norwood 21:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Given the speed of the changes I have not had the time to do an exegis of the history, but the intro is better than it was the last time I checked. My question on the introductory paragraph concerns method. I see no reference to criticism. Aside from Kant's "critical method" which had a profound influence on philosophy, philosophers have always lived by criticizing their predecessors and contemporaries. The natural philosophers may have arrived at conclusions by meditation, inspiration, logic, fabulation (sorry, this doesn't mean anything to me) but they also did so by observing the world in which they were a participant. I guess what I'm saying is that the choice of methods reflect a rationalist, or perhaps innatist take on method and exclude whatever observations of the phenomenal world may offer. Amerindianarts 19:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Introductions in Philosophical articles are notoriously difficult. The present one is no exception. I don't like the phrase "Philosophy is the study of ideas that are fundamental, central, or exalted". fundamental to what? Central to what? Exalted by whom? It does not give any indication of what philosophy is. I Googled "fundamental central exalted"; five of the first ten entries were about banking, four were from a range of religions, and the other was this page. Presumably philosophy is the religion of banking?
The only way to deal with the issue is to be explicit about the problem itself. So, here are some ideas about philosophy. Already in the article:
From the talk pages:
What is left out? Banno 06:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, these same concerns apply to the intro in Portal:Philosophy, although that citation does a better job than the present one here. Banno 06:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Current Intro (as of December 7, 2005):
Philosophy is the study of ideas that are fundamental, central, or exalted. A student of philosophy seeks to understand principles that underpin all knowledge and being.
In Greek, the word "philosophy" means "love of wisdom", and the word originally included all forms of knowledge and all methods of attaining knowledge. Early scientists, irrespective of their field of study, called themselves "natural philosophers." Through the rise of universities and the separation of learning disciplines, philosophy has taken on a more specialized meaning. Major philosophical problems include: "What do we know?", "How do we know?", and "What is the meaning of life?"
The term can also refer to a worldview, to a perspective on an issue, or to the positions of a particular philosopher or school of philosophy. The phrase "a philosophical attitude" refers to a thoughtful approach to life.
Proposed intro (Keep making changes to this one until satisfied!)
Philosophy is the reasoned pursuit of fundamental truths. A student of philosophy seeks to understand principles that underpin all knowledge and being, and to establish standards of evidence and rational methods of evaluating ideas.
In Greek, the word "philosophy" means "love of wisdom", and the word originally included all forms of knowledge and all methods of attaining knowledge. Early scientists, irrespective of their field of study, called themselves "natural philosophers." Through the rise of universities and the separation of learning disciplines, philosophy has taken on a more specialized meaning. Major philosophical problems include: "What do we know?", "How do we know?", and "What is the meaning of life?"
The term can also refer to a worldview, to a perspective on an issue, or to the positions of a particular philosopher or school of philosophy. The phrase "a philosophical attitude" refers to a thoughtful approach to life.
I think the current intro is very good, but I'm wondering if it's too vague. Fundamental, central, exalted? ...to what (or whom) are these ideas fundamental. I reverted my own edit ("reasoned pursuit of truth" because not all philosophers employ reason. However, I think there is a better way to write the intro lines. Ideas? (Edit the proposed intro above, and when we seem to have a consensus in here, we can transfer it to the article... so it doesnt look like an edit war). --Michael (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I suggest we start reading as many introductions to philosophy as we can, so that eventually (by the end of the month) we'll be able to rattle introductions off the tops of our heads in our own words. Bertrand Russell had a pretty straight forward approach in explaining how philosophy picks up where science leaves off. That is, what the scientist can't detect, measure, and verify, the philosopher ponders. And then there's the bumper sticker that goes: "You'll never get out of this life alive!" Well, how do we know that? Philosophy deals with questions that science isn't sophisticated enough (or will never be sophisticated enough) to answer. Go for it! 12:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The introduction aside, where is philosophy headed? After pondering the universe for thousands of years, is philosophy converging on a single conclusion of greatest importance, or perhaps a worldview that is key to attaining everything that truly matters? Is there an ultimate ought? Is there a normative imperative? Which philosophers have dealt with these issues? Is there a pattern emerging from all the philosophical traditions, movements, schools, theories, arguments, and principles that have come before? What is the greatest piece of wisdom that philosophy has ever produced/induced/decuded/whatever? Go for it! 12:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Atheism is a feature of several major schools of thought, including existentialism, logical positivism, nihilism, pragmatism, and the more recent extropianism, humanism, and transhumanism. Where are philosophers divided on theism vs. atheism? How central is the atheism theme? What percentage of philosophers are atheistic/non-theistic? Go for it! 12:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
What if Man were to discover how to create living organisms from inanimate matter?
What if Man were to create an artificial intelligence?
What if Man were to discover alien life? What would these events do to the concept of God?
Is faith appropriate?
Do you have to see God to believe in him/her/it?
Does a booming voice have to come down from the sky?
How can another man's ("inspired") word in the existance of God be enough?
Go for it! 12:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
"It is impossible to reason someone out of a belief that they have not reasoned themselves into in the first place." Rick Norwood 13:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
What is this for? Anyways, an addition: "Given properties X, Y, and Z, can they co-exist in logical consistency?" Infinity0 talkcontribs 16:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Go for it! 12:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I do not think this is a very meaningful exercize, but: the author of Job, Plato, Aristotle, Spinoza, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx, Wittgenstein, Pierce. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Fourteen is the fewest that I can do: lao-tze, plato, aristotle, patanjali, nagarjuna, augustine, adi shankara, ramanuja, huineng, aquinas, descartes, kant, hegel, nietzsche — goethean ॐ 19:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Besides, it's not POV if we are guessing who is the greatest in the world's eyes, rather than merely expressing our own opinion. Besides, "POV" is thrown around on Wikipedia much like the phrase "It is the will of God" was used by the clergy back in Medeival times. Have you ever seen the movie Kingdom of Heaven, it exemplifies the point perfectly. Besides, we don't have to say they're the greates, we can just feature them in the article. Go for it! 21:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Any list is POV. You were not seriously thinking we would come up with a single, NPOV list of the ten greatest philosophers, did you? Someone asked a question; I gave my answer and it is a personal answer, nothing more. Ignore it, or propose your own list of faves, but there is no pointin knocking one of my own personal choices. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Just as we have Truth (Philosophy) or XYX (Philosophy) can we have a Philosophy (Philosophy) article? Dbuckner 20:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
As noted by many, philosophy is one of those topics that is too big to define. I still like "Life, the universe, and everything," but I never did hold out any hope that that would survive. I like "fundamental, central, and exalted" because fundamental includes first principles -- logic, observation, epistomology, etc.; central includes what people consider most important -- philosophy of science, political philosophy, and so on; exalted includes the estatic philosophers, such as the Sufis, religious philosophers such as St. John the Devine, etc. Essentially, it says that philosophy covers the beginning, the middle, and the end. Which just about covers it, don't you think? Rick Norwood 22:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Miketwo: I like your version of the intro better than any of the previous versions. Edgy, yes, but I have argued before that encyclopedic is not a synonym for dull. Rick Norwood 02:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Again (as above), the reference to early scientists referring to themselves as 'natural philosophers' is a tad anachronistic. Further, the statement "...the word (philosophy) originally included all forms of knowledge and all methods of attaining knowledge" implies that philosophy no longer "includes" all forms of knowledge and is an extremely loaded sentence as the discipline of philosophy does include all domains of knowledge insofar as the methodologies and perhaps metaphysical presuppositions and epistemic constraints of other domains can be brought into question. That is, so long as you do not follow the natural epistemologists line (and such innfighting does not need to be brought up in the introduction). "Fundamental, central and exalted" provides very little insight into what philosophy actually is. Perhaps it would be important and rather wise to mention something about philosophy being a systematised attempt to come to terms with life and its subsequent relations, i.e. typical ontological questions about being and questions of an epistemic nature-- questions concering the grounds for human knowledge. --Valve 03:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Infinity() has reverted to my last version; thanks, but please also do some re-writing of it. It was written in a rush before work, and needs more to make it an effective piece. Most notably, it needs more references and citations. Banno
I also listed above what I think should be included in a discussion of the various meanings of "philosophy" - that it is considered a method, a subject, and a process as well as an academic discipline. This is what is drawn in my version.
A note that whatever we come up with as a final version, it must also include a paragraph or two describing the structure of the remainder of the article. Banno 20:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said before, I don't like the phrase "Philosophy is the study of ideas that are fundamental, central, or exalted". fundamental to what? Central to what? Exalted by whom? It does not give any indication of what philosophy is. Banno
It is not possible to prepare an effective introduction that says what philosophy is in one or two paragraphs; nor would it be necessary to do so. It is most unlikely that the reader will have come here having no idea of the meaning of "philosophy". the question is far more likely to be raised as a part of an introductory undergrad course than anything else - we are not here to do other people's homework, but to get them to read more philosophy. Banno
"...though it is still a universally applicable practice" I find problematic, because of its vagueness. I can see from what is written above that it has something to do with the idea that philosophy underpins (not undercuts!) science, but this in itself is a recent idea, coming I think from around the time of Kant; prior to that , philosophy science; furthermore, I understand that there are those who think that philosophy and science are quite distinct and unrelated, one having to do with understanding the word, the other with the betterment of the soul. In short, the phrase does not say what it appears to be intended to say. Banno 20:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Folks, this really is a dog's breakfast of an article. Stuff is plopped down just anywhere, history mixed with etymology mixed with exegesis mixed with lists. Yuck. Needs extensive shuffling to make a sensible structure.
In what I just wrote, I set out the main sections as
Banno 20:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The article has been edited to fit into these headings. Yes? No? Tough? There are not as many deletions as it appears - much of the material was moved rather than removed. Banno 23:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed much of the material from the history section, with the aim of shortening it. It was interesting to see the peculiar bias it had - a modern Thomistic history, with scant mention of analytic philosophy. The most savage of my edits is this one [[1]]. You are welcome to edit this material back in, but remember that this should be an outline of the history of philosophy - perhaps some of this should go to the main article? What is left needs to be broadened somewhat to include more eastern writers, and no doubt someone could improve on my constipated prose. Banno 22:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Banno -- you admit you were rushing. Please keep in mind that what you were rushing to change was the careful effort of many people over a long period of time. Don't rush! Change a little bit, discuss changes before you make them, then, if others like your changes, change a little bit more. Stop and think! Rick Norwood 22:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The reverts, rereverts, and reverts of reverts have essentially left the article a mess. Even Banno admits that his edits have been hasty and sometimes -- what was his word? -- constiptated? My inclination is to revert back to the last version by Miketwo. People should not edit hastily and expect others to fix what they have done. But I won't do that unilaterally. What do others think? Rick Norwood 23:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
By way of justification for my edits - I have removed this section[[2]]. In detail
The sections on applied philosophy, philosophical traditions, and western and eastern philosophy were placed under the new main heading, branches of philosophy. Banno 23:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This section takes on much of the material that was previously in the overview section. I promoted it. Banno 23:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This section is now under "meaning and use", with no separate heading. Banno 23:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This contains the material I had previously listed for the introduction. It might require some expansion, and it would be inappropriate to have a large discussion of the definition actually in the introduction - so I sent it to its own section. Banno 23:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if I will recognize the article after this very busy week. I thought it was pretty good before. Banno thought it was dog vomit. I hope I find his huge edit a major improvement. If I see something I think needs changing, I'll change it, but I will take my time, and not work on more than one section per day. Rick Norwood 01:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
As I read the new introduction, the word that came into my mind was "breathless". "Fraught!" indeed. I've cut it to the bone, but at least now it gives the reader some idea of what philosophy is. I worked with the second paragraph for a long time, cutting and cutting stuff that didn't really say anything, e.g. "for the interested reader", before I realized that the whole paragraph was just a repetition of the table of contents. Rick Norwood 01:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I like today's version of the intro fairly well. I think it could be a little shorter, and am going to edit out a few words, but only make minor changes. Rick Norwood 14:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Miketwo seems to be doing a careful and thoughtful edit at the same time as my edit. Rick Norwood 14:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I've worked through this section. I will not make any further changes in this article today. I do wonder about the last sentence. Shouldn't the stoics be saved for the histroy section? What do you think, Miketwo? Rick Norwood 15:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
When a page with as long a history as this one gets more than 30 rewrites in one twenty-four hour period, my inclination is to revert the whole thing. I am not going to. Both Go For It and Infinity0 have some good ideas. But I am going to say, once again, that planning ahead is better than rewriting, and rewriting, and rewriting. Rick Norwood 14:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Good edits, Infinity0 and Banno. Rick Norwood 19:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The article continues to improve. I have a few minor changes to make. Rick Norwood 15:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)