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"Crash bars (...) are designed to protect a rider's legs (and the motor) from injury in a rollover."
AFAIK, crash bars are only designed to protect the motorcycle, not the rider
Comment: Regarding crash bar safety what current R and D is being done on rider protecting crash bars and crash cages? What is the in-use record of the airbag jackets? Where are the best forums for developing crash safety technology?
"A skilled rider can stop a motorcycle without ABS in a shorter distance under ideal conditions. However, ABS provides a substantial measure of safety in the less-than-ideal conditions experienced in the real world."
This has been shown untrue in manufacturer tests. I've removed it.
Reading this article, this section sits very awkwardly. I am sure there is lots of controversy about Bike safety and causative factors in accidents. To single out one report seems ill-balanced. That topic could be moved to an article of its own right, or cut down to about 1 sentance. I get the impression that it is something the writer feels strongly about, but its really very 'off topic'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.162.100 (talk) 12:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Dedicating an entire section in an attempt to debunk a single IIHS report seems a bit excessive as it pertains to the bulk of the article. There are inherent risks associated with riding a motorcycle, and the "controversy" section attempts to minimize a report stating such, claiming bias.... then immediately refers to a source that is, without question, biased. It would be akin to asking the NRA about risks associated with firearms, or the petrochemical industry about global warming. IRCPhoeniX (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
The Causes Section doesn't mention at all the possibility that the accidents may be caused by the rider. The "In Depth Study" cited in the sources section show that about 40% of accidents are the primary fault of the rider. The section should be amended to include information about these types of accident. The main cause of rider-fault accidents is loosing control on a bend. If others agree I'm happy to write an additional paragraph for the article citing some of the figures from the "In Depth Study" ? Tonywoodhouse 17:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph beginning "In the UK, road accident investigators discovered that up to 70% of motorcycle accidents were rider error", that conclusion is the opposite of the Hurt report, the UK's Think! Road Safety program figures, and Honda's ASV (Advanced Safety Vehicle) research, probably others. The 70% rider error figure doesn't seem to be supported any references, so where does it come from? AndroidCat 17:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, road accident investigators discovered that up to 70% of motorcycle accidents were rider error((fact)), and didn't initially involve another vehicle. The majority of these accidents happened on left hand bends. Riders were found to be travelling beyond their ability going into the corner, and lost their confidence half way through the corner. The result was that they panicked, grabbed the front brake, and this would force the bike to alter course, causing an accident. In the majority of these accidents, it was found that had they not panicked, the bike would have negotiated the corner successfully.
I removed the text until it can be changed and/or cited. AndroidCat 16:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The quote "The number one cause of motorcycle crashes is the failure of riders to countersteer." strikes me as a bit of a crock, taking something out of context and turning it into a headline of sorts. The simple fact is that the physics of riding is going to have the front end countersteering into a corner whether the rider is conscious of it or not. Motorcycle training classes will teach the rider to do it consciously, but "failure to countersteer" is just plain BS. The real cause pointed to in that quote from the Hurt report is lack of training - not one specific technique. Poor breaking is at least as serious here as any lack of conscious countersteering.
Perhaps worse, there's a paragraph later in the same section which uses the Superbike school example to show that it's impossible to turn the bike without countersteering. While the section is quite informative on how to steer a bike, what does it have to do with "the cause of accidents"? (Side note: I'm quite familiar with how motorcycles handle and the fine art of countersteering (and "counter-countersteering," for that matter) with a lot of miles in the saddle, and a couple of spectacular crashes - none of which involved a failure to countersteer...)
A later quote in the same section calls the failure to see motorcyles the predominant cause, (contradicting the long - and weak - countersteer section) then goes on to talk about headlights and bright clothing. I saw no reference to debris, road conditions (potholes and the like), poor maintenance, etc. Overall, the whole section's kind of rubish.
Personally, I think the entire section needs a bit more research to find some good and (and recent!) statistics so it can get a complete rewrite. A simple description of "Rider error", "Road conditions", "Second vehicle", etc., with appropriate statistics is going to be a lot more effective and accurate than what's there now.
Cheers
Bagheera (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Sticking to what can actually be cited would be best, and weighting in the article given to what can be shown by statistics from studies as the main causes of accidents. I have a hard time with lack of countersteering as the main cause of accidents when studies have consistently shown that most accidents involve another vehicle and most of those are the other driver's fault. AndroidCat 03:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Re this section. I feel this is a vanity article, as it simply points out a few non-notable people who have died while riding motorcycles. It seems heavily weighted towards police officers, so the "experienced" title is innaccurate, and in any case has no hope of being a comprehensive list, given that a much greater number of "experienced riders" have had and will continue to have fatal accidents.
However, I'm open to discussion on this topic. If there are no other objections or concerns, I'm planning to remove the section again. -Tejastheory 19:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The intention of the section is to demonstrate with accurate and well-documented real-life examples that motorcycles are lethal when operated exactly the way intended by the manufactures. The list of deaths of experienced riders, including the president of a motorcycle club and numerous police offiecers, sheds an accurate light on the limitation of "motorcycle safety" which is an oxymoron when 80% of motorcycle accidents result in death or serious injury.
Look at the Wiki definition of vanity and you will see that such definition does not apply since I do not have any association with the deceased individuals. I believe the real motive for removing the section is to downplay the extent of serious well-documented danger of this consumer product. There is a pattern of downplaying the deadliness of motorcycles by the motorcycle fans who generally contribute to these wiki pages, which has been demonstrated by the redaction of mortality statistics from both the Harley-Davidson and the Motorcycle articles. Such censorship has no wiki basis and such activity gives the strong appearance of nothing more than product-support based censorship. As one writer in the Harley-Davidson discussion page noted, that article is little more than a Harley-Davidson company portal. If you would like to continue this discussion, let's copy our comments over to the Motorcycle safety page and continue it there. Then when I put a neutrality disputed tag on the page, it will make sense to all concerned.
David F. Traver 00:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Note: the below is taken from the each users' respective talk pages. I felt it more clearly explains the thought behind this section, so included it here.
Sorry, forgot to mention that I already placed this into Talk:Motorcycle_safety. I realize your concerns, and under that basis, I'd completely agree with you. But I believe there are already plenty of mentions of the dangers of motorcycles. My main point of removing the section wasn't about minimizing the dangers, but simply because it seemed, as I read the article the first time, extremely unproffesional and specific. Specifically, what is so special about these people who are listed, and why not list the millions of other motorcycle deaths?
-Tejastheory 00:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
As an initial matter, what makes those deceased individuals "special" is that their motorcycle-related deaths are well-documented on the web, as was their experience as motorcycle operators. So it was possible to provide supporting links.
Perhaps there is a middle ground which will be satisfying to you and to other readers of the motorcycle-related pages. I suggest we collaborate to create a new article titled something like "Motorcycle social costs and mortality rates." We could move information from the "safety" page to the new page. The notion of discussing "motorcycle safety" is an oxymoron to me, since there is nothing a rider can do to make the machine safe for operation on a highway. It is somewhat like having safe Russian roulette. Social costs and mortality rates could explore the death rate, lost earnings, costs to Medicaid, welfare, Supplemental Security Income, and Social Security Disability due to uninsured and unemployable motorcycle accident victims, etc. We could document and show the social costs in miles traveled to differentiate motorcycles from modes of transportation that have substantially fewer social costs, such as airplanes, automobiles, trains, and buses. It would be a pleasure to have someone to work with on the project. David F. Traver 00:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you have some good ideas, Traverlaw. I don't even think a new article is necessary; that kind of informatin is certainly relevant to even the main motorcycle article, or this could be changed to something more general such as "Risks/Dangers of Motorcycle riding". For the present, however, I'm going to remove the information on these specific deaths, reasons being that they seem much too specific and "highlight" non-notable deaths, and don't illustrate the dangers of motorcycle better than the actual facts and statistics in this article. -Tejastheory 03:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I note that your rationale for removing this section changed with every discussion. You originally tagged it as a "vanity" edit. Not all readers can understand or internalize raw statistics. It does not take any math background to understand that when motorcycle club presidents and police are being killed on their Harleys, there is a severe limitation to the popular myth that experience riders are "safe" when riding on a highway. However, I think you have shown several ways in which the section can be improved. Since "motorcycle safety" is a deceptive oxymoron, I will go ahead and create the new article soon, moving much of the information about mortality and social costs into a new article that is not predicated on the notion that the product could be safe on highways. A new article on point will be a good place to discuss other high social costs, such as the new study on the way from and Australian medical society quantifying the social cost of motorcycle crash-related hospital expenses in comparison to non-motorcyclists, which is not related to safety, but describes only costs and burdens on society caused by this inherently dangerous consumer product. David F. Traver 11:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
How important are motorcyclists to the organ transplant programme (cadaveric donors)? I read the claim in a tabloid that organ transplant programmes would become simply impossible to maintain without the steady supply of head-crushed motorcyclists. Is that true?
It was written in order to oppose the idea that new traffic law would ban motorcycles from carrying more than one person. That is, the tabloid editors think it is a positive idea that rich, reckless young adults can save the lives of six or seven other people via self-extermination.
While some organ donations do involve motorcyclists, there has never been any suggestion from the medical profession that this justifies taking unnecessary risk.Danwoodard (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Most cleanup is needed on the lead section (better tone, less detail, etc). Green caterpillar 20:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence "It is HIGHLY dangerous!!" from the introduction until anybody can tell me where "HIGHLY" starts and what is considered "minor" dangerous - The only conclusion we can get out of the figures presented in the first part is that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than operating a car, which is no statement about the risk of motorcycling itself.
(Millions of people die in bed, beds are dangerous)
In defense of horses, this probably depends on whether you are defining danger on the basis of hours or miles. While riding a horse may carry similar risk per mile, most people ride for pleasure rather than transportation and a more relevant comparison would be in injuries per hour. It should also be noted that this statistic referred to total injuries, not fatalities. Despite the danger of fall from the saddle, speeds in riding are low and collisions with automobiles are rare, and most reported injuries are minor. A review of accidental deaths found 205 fatal injuries in horseback riding over a ten year period, or just over 20 per year for the US as a whole. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001626.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danwoodard (talk • contribs) 18:03, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree that both of these should be merged into motorcycle safety. However, both are commonly used phrases and should be retained and clearly visible within the body of the page - ideally as subsections of the section on Personal protective equipment. --Cheesy Mike 17:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
It's an interesting blog, and I might add it to my bookmarks beside Scooter Scoop, but (a) it's a blog, (b) its focus is on fashion rather than safety (although the two can overlap). It seems to be covered under WP:EL, Links normally to be avoided, 11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.
Now, WP:EL is a guideline rather than a policy, so there can be some leeway if there's enough of a consensus by editors. My own feeling is that it doesn't have enough relevance to safety to worry about making an exception. AndroidCat 21:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
"Wilbur Wright, The Wright Brothers, F.C. Kelly, Ballentine, 1966"
I've just read through this and could not find the material quoted in this article. Does anyone know if it is from a particular edition or what page it is on? -AndrewDressel 17:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
We call the following language "deceptive": "To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handgrip in the direction of the turn. Press left-lean left-go left. Press right-lean right-go right. Higher speeds and or tighter turns require the motorcycle to lean more.[7]"
How is this deceptive? It's just a description of countersteering that doesn't use the word itself. Unless someone can find a reliable source calling this language deceptive, we should take it out. Same goes for the claim about "deceptive" images, which doesn't even make clear what images it's talking about.
Also, we have too much quoted text in the article. Not as big a deal as the unsourced claims, though. --Allen 20:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
"The number one cause of motorcycle crashes is the failure of riders to countersteer." There doesn't seem to be anything to support that conclusion or the rest of the section in the summary of the Hurt Report. What it does say is "The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents." AndroidCat 21:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
For those interested, I have (finally) started a rewrite of the Causes of Accidents section in my Sandbox area. We had quite a bit of discussion on the subject, and I figure it's about time to get rid of that terrible "Not countersteering causes accidents!" section.
Cheers
Bagheera (talk) 20:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I have not seen an original copy of Wilbur's text, quoted above. I would like to.
Motorrad-67 (talk) 14:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I get a kick out of this. Students frequently ask me, "when you say 'press' do you mean press forward or down?"
You press on the handlebars in the only way they go because they pivot around the axis of the steering head. So, actually, you are pressing a little north of forward because of the head angle or rake of the bike.
So I show the students how the handlebars turn.
Andrew Dressel has it right: press down all you want, but only pressing forward turns the front wheel and causes countersteering.
That is the best way to put it. Motorrad-67 (talk) 12:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Not sure where to put this, please move to correct area of the page:
This statement "In the United States, the primary overseer of motorcycle safety training is
the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. MSF operates over 1,500 "RiderCourse" sites in USA." is misleading to say the least. If any one body is the motorcycle safety "overseer", it is the National Association of State Motorcycle Safety Administrators SMSA (smsa.org). It is the individual states' decision what safety training programs to use, be it MSF's
or someone else's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.251.239.2 (talk) 02:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
As part of the process of cleaning up one of the oldest articles marked for cleanup I have removed some of the long quotations I was unable to incorporate into the article. Instead of deleting them entirely I have moved them off of the main article per WP:NOT (WP:NOTDIR, WP:INDISCRIMINATE) as well as WP:QUOTEFARM and have instead commented them out here in this talk page section. If you can reincorporate them, feel free to add them back into the article in accordance to policy and guidelins as well as WP:MOS, or consider adding them to Wikiquote. Barkeep Chat | $ 20:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
The whole section is a mess and generally reads like advertising for Honda, Dainese and Hit Air (even quoting prices, which is quite ridiculous for an encyclopedia). Also, many statements are unsourced. Needs a complete do-over, which I am not qualified to provide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.199.104.3 (talk) 13:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that airbag devices really improve motorcycle safety? I have never seen a motorcylist injured in an accident and protected by an airbag device. Danwoodard (talk) 13:16, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
One problem is that, as Tonywoodhouse explains above, counter steering is a very interesting topic, but all this information should be in the counter-steering article. It has no place in this discussion other than a single sentence stating the number of accidents the Hurt report claims are caused by inability to consciously use countersteering to perform fast evasive manouveurs. So I don't mind leaving out the words that 125.200.65.68 added.
Another problem is that, as explained in the Countersteering article, countersteering is not precisely defined in the literature. Even Cossalter uses the term to mean something entirely different than the sense at issue here. In fact, I prefer 125.200.65.68's definition because, as Cossalter describes and as the countersteering article tries to explain, the initial, momentary steer torque and angle are both opposite the desired turn direction. The sustained steer angle is in the same direction as the turn. The sustained steer torque required to maintain that steer angle is either with or opposite the turn direction depending on forward speed, bike geometry, and combined bike and rider mass distribution.
I propose that we keep the description as brief as it is here, or make it even briefer, and continue any discussion on how motorcycles are actually turned on the countersteering article talk page. -AndrewDressel (talk) 04:14, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Also, if we had a good how-=to article on countersteering over at Wikibooks to point to, it would be much easier to delete non-encyclopedic content without feeling like we were gutting the article. --Dbratland (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Is countersteering introduced because it is a risk in itself or because the half second delay in initiating a turn makes it harder to avoid a possible collision? If the latter perhaps countersteering and braking should be combined in a section on collision avoidance. Danwoodard (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
...this [26] is the "missing source" for death statistics in the UK. I have no tiem now to check it. Cheers. Randroide (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
This article needs to be expanded to include points of view other than the official ATGATT approach, because this article should not be "how to be safe" but rather be a neutral article that includes a full range of common approaches to safety, including those who have a disregard for safety. I believe this adds to the credibility of the article, which increases the persuasiveness of the gear+training approach by demonstrating an even handed approach. Probably tagging it with ((POV)) would help raise the profile of the issue.
I added photos File:Harley riders on I4.jpg and File:Half helmet Harley-Davidson rider.jpg to begin to illustrate that not everyone thinks alike on this. Specific sources that I think should be used to expand the coverage are Packer's Motoring Without Mayhem , ISBN 0822339633 ((citation))
: Missing or empty |title=
(help), Bourne's Philosophical Ridings , ISBN 1851685200 ((citation))
: Missing or empty |title=
(help) and Bernard Rollin's essay It's my own damn head , ISBN 081269595X ((citation))
: Missing or empty |title=
(help). Gabrielle Giffords, a strong advocate for motorcycle safety, is also an opponent of mandatory helmets and is reported to ride without a helmet.[27] The majority of US states have repealed helmet laws since the US congress stopped mandating them in order to receive highway funding, emphasizing that these (effing idiots IMHO) are not a fringe group (unfortunately). --Dbratland (talk) 18:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I deleted some rather blatant editorializing and original research from the Accident rates section but it still needs more cleanup. There are some conclusions drawn about comparisons between the US and Japan that are based mostly on an editors opinions about what the comparative rates per registered vehicle means, ans some data about road length and road type (as a proxy for speed). That's fine as far as it goes, but without comparing accidents per mile, it can be misleading, particularly when the US is involved. Americans have a habit of filling their garages with motorcycles that they don't ride. Consumer Reports reported the average American only puts 1,000 miles per year on each bike they own; drastically fewer miles than other parts of the world. This helps explain why the US fatality rate per registered motorcycle is similar to Europe, but Europe has fewer accidents per mile traveled.
In any case, you still aren't free to insert your opinions about what the data means. See WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR. You can cite the data, and you can cite what the experts -- not what a Wikipedia editor -- thinks the data tells us. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I've created a workpage to work on some revision of this article. I'm thinking the Conroversey section belongs either on Sport bike or Types of motorcycles, since it's more to do with classification schemes and how insurance works in the USA. It doesn't have a lot of broad importance. The main thing I'm working on is a new section, Attitudes about risk. I need to fill in some areas and tweak the wording, but it's coming along. The difficulty is getting the wording right so that it is neutral enough. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:20, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Another example of the 'hyperreflexive self-disciplinary' school of thought, in contrast to the ABATE school which says you can make drivers take responsibility, by driver education, and greater enforcement and greater penalties against car drivers for DUI, cell phone use, and bad driving in general.
Bernt Speigel also wrote that riders who want to ride at the highest levels need to hold certain fictional beliefs in order to discipline themselves, while casual recreational riders may take a more realistic approach. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
It could be these people are all in fact, idiots. Or it could be that they are actually riding motorcycles because of the risk, not in spite of it, as Packer describes. Articles like these do show that the hyperreflexive self-disciplinary camp isn't on speaking terms with the other schools, and finds them incomprehensible. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Suzy Perry is preaching about long term hearing loss, and it brings to mind hazards other than crashing. Others I can think of are hypothermia, heat illness, dehydration, and wind and particle damage to the eyes. By the same token, Motorcycle personal protective equipment exclusively discusses crash protection and fails to cover the role that clothing plays in preventing these issues. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
The section on veterans is fine as far as it goes, but there's a couple issues. The first is that Motorcycle_training#Armed_forces_off-duty_riding covers the issue in greater detail, with multiple sources. It might make sense to decide whether Motorcycle safety or Motorcycle training is the main article to cover veteran deaths, and the military's response to it, rather than have duplication at cross purposes.
The second issue is that the source makes some invalid arguments: "Data suggests that the faster the bike, the greater the death rate: More than 70 percent of motorcycle rider fatalities in 2006 occurred either on a bike with an engine between 501 and 1,000 cubic centimeters in size, or an engine between 1,001 and 1,500 cc’s." The NHTSA data do not say this. They say that the increase in deaths, nationally, not just among young veterans, since the 1990s, is mostly attributable to more and more riders over age 40 buying large-displacement Harley-Davidsons and similar cruisers, which do not have speed and power consummate with their displacement. Younger rider deaths on faster, but smaller displacement, sport bikes haven't been up dramatically. Except among veterans. In other words, the picture is complicated and it demands more intelligent reasoning than the abilitymagazine.com article provides. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
It is not clear from the section whether the risk of accidents is higher for veterans than for other riders of the same age, or if so, why.Danwoodard (talk) 18:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
This section Motorcycle safety#Airbag devices is self-contradictory and badly promotional. I've cleaned up some of the promotional tone but it still says the devices were invented in either 1973, 1976 or 1995, by inventors in Hungary or Japan, and testing shows 83% improvement in crash or there has been no testing. The Goldwing price cited at $23,099 contradicts the published 2013 price of $29,550 [31] and probably contradicts WP:NOPRICES anyway. Please help clean up. Brianhe (talk) 15:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
I know that the Hurt report mentions something about using high beam in day time increases visibility of motorcycles. Does anybody know about any newer publications about this? Lights on motorcycles has improved a lot since then. Atlesn (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The only way to know for sure is with a randomized trial, such as giving placebo helmets or placebo headlights to half the riders without their knowledge! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 06:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello founders of this interesting page! Me and a friend are working on a draft for two new sections that we have found missing from this page:
We are adopting a mostly social focus to try and explain the relations and incongruities between the riders, governments & regulators, motorcycle organisations, and transport infrastructure groups. We think that these can explain many of the safety disparities existing with cars and explain some recent misunderstandings in between these players resulting in uproars in the Uk and Sweden. We are very much open to feedback and will be continuously updating this section with our sections until they are deemed ready for the main page. We are both new to Wikipedia editing so if you have any tips or feel that our approach could be enhanced we are suckers for constructive criticism.
These are our current sources (sorry some are in Swedish and french):
Hampton C. Gabler: “The risk of fatality in motorcycle crashes with roadside barriers”l, Virginia Tech, United States, Paper Number 07-0474
These are some of the points we are tackling: Vision Zero incongruent with the individualistic philosophy of risk acceptance and valorization. Politicians legislative response to above problem. Motorcycle organizations response to politicians and social cooperation measures. Road infrastructure car safety bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Overtoasted (talk • contribs) 13:52, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
My only concern is that this sounds very ambitious, involving many new sources, expanding the article in to several new areas and so could mean quite a bit of research and writing on your part. That's wonderful, but often new editors take some time to understand Wikipedia's core policies like WP:Verifiability, and WP:No original research, especially for writers from an academic background where original research is encouraged. If you create a large addition or a new article which is too far out of policy, someone else is bound to heavily revise or even delete large portions of it, maybe even all of it. This can be frustrating and discouraging, and often new editors quit because they don't understand why their edits seem unwelcome.
I think the best way for new editors to avoid this kind of difficult start is to work slowly at first, making small edits to lots of different articles, while reading the various help and policy pages, asking questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling, WP:Teahouse, and so on. As you gain experience, you will see much better how to plan and execute your larger project without running into road blocks and feeling discouraged.
The Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling/to do list is a good place to start for ideas, and there are many other lists of tasks, such as Wikipedia:Community portal/Opentask.
There are many ways to get help, and so when you have questions, please ask! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
requested move to workpage
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In many countries, incompatibility issues exist between motorcyclers risk attitudes and nationwide road safety plans. Western democratic societies often rely upon fundamental utilitarian views to achieve its function, such as setting the limits to individual freedom to guarantee public safety. Vision Zero and other absolute political goals are fundamentally incongruent with the individualistic philosophy of risk acceptance and valorization. For years, in France, legislative measures have been taken to limit the output power of two wheeled vehicles [1]. Talks about mandatory speed limiting devices have surged uproar in the motorcycle communities in countries such as the UK [2] and Sweden. The arguments used against these devices are discrimination of a group road users, being contrary to national legal customs, and intrusive. [3] However, rallies and motorcycler’s right organizations have helped inform public officials about the negative impacts of such restrictions on their communities, with no reports of such devices being fitted having seen the day. Instead, collaboration with these groups are leading to increased focus on rider training and roadside safety measures. Moreover, focus is shifted towards the statistically largest percentage of accidents, which are due to alcohol & drug use, non street-legal motorcycles, and riders not having a valid motorcycle license. [4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Overtoasted (talk • contribs) 21:55, 10 May 2016 (UTC) References
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Nick Ienatsch's recent Cycle World column, Two Paths to Motorcycle Safety from Two Experts is the latest salvo in a back-and-forth with David Hough over the issues outlined in Motorcycle safety#Attitudes about risk. Hough has been writing for the last year about his analysis of recent safety data, concluding that motorcycling is much more dangerous than riders generally believe. He is arguing (I'm making a rough summary here) that if the number of riders is increased the fatality rate will increase at a disproportionate rate, because real-world training of new riders is generally ineffective in reducing the number of crashes. Ienatsch makes what I think is a straw-man criticism of this, accusing Hough of advocating the "quit riding" option described in Attitudes about risk. Ienatsch goes on to make what I think could be almost a stereotyped example of the "hyperreflective self-disciplinary" point of view, saying track day instructors "are motivated to never crash again," and using military aviation as proof that this goal is attainable.
It makes me ask if military flying is safe enough to satisfy the public's current expectations for how many people should die on the roads. And whenever anyone uses the military to make a broader social point, I have to ask if they have considered that the military won't let just anybody in, and will not hesitate get rid of anybody that is more trouble than they're worth. Society at large doesn't have the option to simply boot out anybody whose behavior helping meet this quarter's mishap rate goal. More stringent licensing and training requirements is not consistent with the goal of increasing the number of riders above 2 percent of the population, the point where Hough thinks the fatality rate will become socially unacceptable.
That's only my rough summary; there's quite a number of published columns between the two writers going back over the last year to review, in Cycle World and Motorcycle Consumer News, respectively. We should do our best to accurately summarize their views. This debate is also remarkable for another reason, that it's one of the only instances I know of where a recognized figure has seriously questioned Hough's qualifications. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:20, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
I added two short paragraphs on Blinkers and Rear View Mirrors. I saved it. Now I realize that also Brake Lights should as well be a part of the section. Brake light switches were not installed on motorcycles in the early days of motorcycle models. Hand signals were used to show turn directions, slow down, or stop. There is no section on hand signals. Also headlights. At one time, incandescent lights were the safest, to be replaced by Halogen lamps, which are now being replaced by superbright LEDs. Incandescents originally replaced Acetylene lamps or kerosene lamps. Also, this section could use some references and documentation. B'H. MichaelAngelo7777 (talk) 03:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
This entire article is focused on the present, with the purpose of explaining the modern circumstances. It goes back to the Hurt Report of the 70s with the purpose of laying a foundation to explain the present. So sticking in this random stuff about dirt bikes and lights that didn't used to be around doesn't make very much sense. Do we need to mention every single thing that bikes didn't have until it was invented? Windscreens? Gears? License plates? Do we need to mention every single thing that off-road bikes don't have?
It is confusing to have this stuff pop up out of nowhere like that. It needs to be moved to a separate section that takes a historical view, where you can tick off chronologically each of the things that were invented and later became standard on most bikes in most jurisdictions today. It might even make more sense to go over to History of the motorcycle and add safety innovations like lights and horns and so on in the overall chronology, and then when that's more or less complete, add a summary of the safety history to this article. Off road bikes don't belong in this article at all. If you're going to do that, you're going to have to mention each of the things that racing bikes don't have. Then somebody will object that trials bikes have this but MotoGP bikes have that and flat track bikes have something else. It's out of scope. It's very clear this is an article about road traffic safety. Street legal bikes that you need a license to ride on public roads. And no, that does not mean we need to change the title to some thing long and clumsy like Street legal production road motorcycle safety in modern times. The scope of Wikipedia articles is not required to be defined in the title. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
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I would like to propose adding the following entry. There does not seem to be any concise discussion of risk. As an emergency physician i have seen quite a few fatalities so I feel providing clear and concise informaiton regarding what the levels of risk are and who is at risk will be useful. Naturally I would like to discuss it first with anyone else interested in this topic:
Risk to the rider and others
NHTSA data from 2016 places the risk of death while riding a motorcycle at 28.51 times the risk of driving the same distance in a car 2016 MOTORCYCLES Traffic Safety Fact Sheet. NHTSA reports that wearing a helmet reduces the risk of death by 37% Helmet Effectiveness Revisited, while data from the insurance industry that helmets are worn an average of 65% of the time by riders nationwide Insurance Institute for Highway Safety - Motorcycles. Based on this data a motorcycle rider's risk of death, compared to his risk when driving a car the same distance, is 25 times greater if he is wearing a helmet and 35 times greater if he is not.
One argument against laws requiring helmets is the belief that a skilled rider may be able to avoid accidents. However most fatal motorcycle accidents involve collisions with cars, trucks or SUVs and 45% follow a single scenario, a vehicle turning left across the path of a motorcycle travelling in the opposite direction. ( https://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/topicoverview ) In this situation the motorcycle has the right of way but even a skilled rider may be unable to avoid the collision. An approaching driver in a larger vehicle will be more likely to be seen. If a collision does occur a fatality is much less likely if both vehicles are enclosed and equipped with crumple zones, seatbelts and airbags
A second argument against helmet laws is the concept of autonomy, i.e. the rider should be free to accept the risk of riding without a helmet because he/she is the only one harmed. However the rider's death may deprive his family of a beloved parent, spouse or child and potentially of his family's only source of income. Law enforcement and the family of the motorcycle rider may press for the other driver to be charged with vehicular homicide, punishable by a decade or more in prison with potentially irreparable harm to his or her family and children as well as those of the deceased cyclist. https://www.thenewscenter.tv/content/news/Motorcycle-rider-killed-in-head-on-collision-in-Gallia-County-490952711.html . Clearly the pain and suffering resulting from a fatal motorcycle accident, and consequently the risk, is not limited to the rider or even the rider's family.Danwoodard (talk) 03:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
As far as arguments, the first thing to remember is how US-centric this debate even is. Wikipedia readers outside the US have no experience with the state-by-state back and forth debate over motorcycle helmets. Writing for a broad, global audience, Motorcycle safety should try to convey the general outlines of why this is even an issue in the US. Everybody else takes mandatory helmet laws for granted.
Even aimed only at US readers, Wikipedia is not a how-to guide or an advice site. It's not our job to tell anybody that riding without a helmet is bad. Instead, we should try to equip them with a broad understanding. The section Motorcycle_safety#Attitudes_about_risk attempts to do that. It's important to understand that quoting fatality rates to many motorcycle riders is evidence that you aren't even paying attention -- their choice to ride without a helmet has an entirely different basis than what is or isn't safer. The four rough classes of thought about motorcycling risk are deeply incompatible. They have drastically different values, and so the first and perhaps the second group might be interested in risk comparison data, for the third and fourth groups, it's entirely beside the point, so it goes right past them. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I will try to add these points within the existing structure of the article as you suggest. I looked at the article on fatality rates but it doesn't seem to address issues beyond that fatality rate itself.
I fully agree that many bikers aren't concerned about risk, but what about their families? People are free in most countries to engage in dangerous activities such as rock climbing and cave diving, but because the risk is so obvious the family of the person who participates will be aware of it and be in some measure prepared if the worst happens, and it would be unusual for anyone else to be charged with homicide if a participant in a hazardous sport dies. But the motorcycle rider is placing others at risk. Does the rider have a right to place his family members at risk without clearly informing them? How can he inform them if he is unaware of the risk? Does the family of the deceased rider have the right to permanently destroy the family of the driver who collided with him, when the same collision, with both drivers in cars, would have caused only minor injuries?
I agree that US helmet laws seem bizarre to those from other countries which require helmets and don't allow the rider to accept this risk. I agree we cannot simply tell people that riding without a helmet is bad, that would be simply an opinion and would convince no one. But that's all the more reason to make clear, to US readers, the contrast with the rest of the world and the rational for not permitting the individual to take unnecessary risks. I think we need to make clear who is at risk beyond the rider himself, and how serious this risk actually is, so that individual bikers, their families, and society can make a reasoned decision based on facts. In the US, for the same reason, auto drivers are required to wear seat belts; they don't have the "autonomy" to take the risk of not wearing them precisely because it is recognized by society that they are putting others at risk. I feel this is a conversation the motorcyclist needs to have with his family - in advance. Danwoodard (talk) 14:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
If you added information in an article about light bulbs intended to help consumers choose which bulb would be most economical, that would violate the the WP:NOTCATALOG policy -- Wikipedia is not a price comparison service. If you wrote content with the intent of helping readers pick the best adhesive for a broken chair leg, that would violate the WP:NOTADVICE or WP:NOTMANUAL policy.
You're making it very clear that your basic goal is to tell people what they should and shouldn't do, and to advocate for against a specific political agenda. And, yes, there is policy against that, WP:NOTSOAPBOX.
If you've stated that this is your goal and your edits are explicitly designed to subvert and skirt clear policy restrictions, then you're not editing in good faith and you're not here to build an encyclopedia.
Most of us can put aside our own feelings and think about a topic objectively, if we are motivated to do so. If you say you are trying to put aside your biases and communicate facts dispassionately, we will all strive to assume good faith that you're at least as capable of objectivity as the rest of us. All I'm really asking for is for you to take the approach of describing significant points of view. If anti-helmet law groups are making a certain argument, find a good secondary source that verifies that, and summarize it. Find good secondary sources that state the counter arguments by those favoring helmet laws, and summarize those. You do not have to treat crackpot theories as equal to scientific fact, creating the fallacy of false balance. Consider how the articles Vaccination policy and Vaccine controversies are written. Your best role models are the many Featured Articles in Category:FA-Class medicine articles. Good examples are FAs like Lung cancer, which makes very clear how harmful smoking is without advocating for smoking bans or preaching to quit smoking. Water fluoridation is a close parallel to helmet laws, and you can see that it pulls no punches. Or consider Alaska Mental Health Enabling Act. There's helpful guidelines at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/How to edit.
Please don't let me stop you from proceeding. I think you should go ahead and expand the article as you describe; you've been shown where to find the necessary guidance on our goal of a neutral point of view. I'd also consider that the people whose minds you want to change have already seen and ignored many pro-helmet-law advertisements from the CDC and IIHS and so on, and if they think this Wikipedia article is just parroting that official line, they'll ignore that too. If you meet them where they are, and they know that you take seriously the kind of thinking behind their choices, they'll probably be more willing to listen to a different side. If you ask me, what really matters is that social identity is inextricably bound up with ideology like opposition to helmet laws[34][35], and that exists independent of facts like relative risk or social costs of injuries. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
These edits, by Danwoodard, followed by some changes by me, I think are a big improvement. The UK report for 2017 that Danwoodard adds a lot of detail. I tried to clarify why the US and UK rates per mile aren't comparable, but I think it can be better. We should probably give an example, such as a vehicle with 3 occupations going one mile and crashing, with one fatality. That would count as one fatality per vehicle mile traveled, which is what the US data is. Per passenger mile, it would be one fatality per 3 passenger miles, since two of the three survived. The first gives a number three times as high, even though it's describing the same thing. Because the US data doesn't include the average number of vehicle occupants, it's impossible to tease out the underlying reality, so a direct comparison is impossible. Perhaps Americans and Britons have on average the same number of vehicle occupants, but we can't assume that.
I'd like to assume an average speed for bicycles, pedestrians, motorcycles and cars, to calculate from this data a rate per hour, describing leisure time rather than an effort to get from A to B. So if you said bicycles average 10 mph, they would have 309 deaths per billion hours, while motorcycles, if they average 50 mph, would have 5,845 deaths per billion hours, and pedestrians only about 106 per billion hours. With better assumptions, I think this is valid, but it goes beyond the routine calculations allowed by the WP:CALC section of the WP:No original research policy. We'd need to find this actually stated in a source, rather than figuring it out ourselves.
What we can do is work on making this more readable and anticipate any confusion readers might have, and of course correct any errors. Hopefully I didn't introduce any but chances are I did at least a little. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 07:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
The title of the first section "Accident Rates" does not seem accurate as the section does not discuss accident rates. I would suggest changing it to "Risk of injury or death" Danwoodard (talk) 16:33, 17 February 2019 (UTC) I think it would also clarify the section to update the statistics to 2016.Danwoodard (talk) 16:53, 25 February 2019 (UTC) I agree if the other transportation modesare included the lower rate per hourshould be mentioned for bicycling and walking.Danwoodard (talk) 20:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)$
Well seriously, I do not find or guess PTW's meaning.