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The article was recently edited to change all instances of "his" into "their", to make it gender-neutral. While I am not taking any stance on the gender neutrality issue per se, the use of singular "they" makes some sections extremely hard to read - the sentences become very heavy and there is confusion as to whether "their" refers to the receptive partner, the insertive partner or both partners. I have therefore changed the singular "their"s back into "his". Gandoman 20:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The part I found most confusing was "resting on the back of their upper shins or thighs, around their buttocks or back, or over their shoulders." Whose shoulders? The inserting or receptive partner's? Or both? I had to read this several times to understand what was meant. However, I see that you have now made this somewhat more clear by changing the first "their".
Also, the "Using a raised surface" section switches between using the word "their" about either the receiving or the inserting partner: "their vagina" and "their pelvis" about the receptive partner, but "their hands" about the insertive partner. So, when one immediately afterwads reads "or the receiving partner might place a pillow or other object beneath their tailbone to elevate their groin.", it is not immediately clear under whose tailbone the pillow is placed. This section should be rewritten with a different sentence structure that avoids the use of the word "their", for example by using the passive voice.
Though I must say that Strait's last edit looked very good to me. The first part of the article describes the most common use of the missionary position (man and woman), which allows simple and unambiguous language, then a section follows describing variations of this position. Isn't that a reasonable compromise? Gandoman 22:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, the "Anal sex" section was all POV stuff about whether the missionary position is comfortable for anal sex. It's not needed if we aren't specifying the orifice. I don't see which other section is missing... Joie de Vivre 16:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I see a plethora of other missionaryish positions at http://sextex.hit.bg/pozi.htm . The Indra position, for instance, looks like a combination of the Grip and the Plough. OK can we have some nominations as to what should be included? Sarsaparilla (talk) 19:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
(Cross posted from village pump) I am attempting to get this article to featured article status but am concerned that it will get hit with comprehensiveness objections if I do not include all the pertinent missionary variants. On the other hand, there are hundreds of sex positions, many of which bear a slight resemblance to missionary, and I don't want to have too many false positives (i.e. Type I statistical errors). Please see Wikipedia:Peer review/Missionary position and Talk:Missionary_position#More_missionaryish_positions for more details. Any insight you can provide as to what criteria might be used to evaluate whether a position is indeed a subset of missionary will be appreciated. Sarsaparilla (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I have centralized the discussion to Talk:Missionary_position/Votes_on_inclusion_as_missionary. Sarsaparilla (talk) 20:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
From the following article:
Terri L. Woodard MD, Karen Collins MS, MA, Mindy Perez BA, Richard Balon MD, Manuel E. Tancer MD, Michael Kruger MS, Scott Moffat PhD, Michael P. Diamond MD (2008) What Kind of Erotic Film Clips Should We Use in Female Sex Research? An Exploratory Study The Journal of Sexual Medicine 5 (1), 146–154. doi:10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00641.x
It was a study done on how women respond to erotic films. I found information on the missionary position.
"Mentally Appealing and Physically Arousing (Defined by Average Score >2 for Mental Appeal and Physical Arousal)
"Videos that were reported as being the most mentally appealing and physically arousing had a mean subjective score of 2.54 ± 0.39 and a mean physical score of 2.48 ± 0.24. The coefficients of variation were 0.15 and 0.10, respectively. While collectively for the entire cohort of women studied, there was no significant correlation between mental appeal and reported physical arousal (r = 0.319, P = 0.197); when analyzing ratings on an individual basis, there was a significant positive correlation (r = 0.61, P < 0.05).
"Out of the 90 film clips, 18 met these criteria. They were characterized as containing scenes that involved (percentage refers to the number of clips with the characteristic divided by the number of clips in this category) vaginal intercourse (83.33%), male on female sexual positions (77.78%), outdoor settings (55.56%), missionary positions (33.33%), female on male sexual positions (27.78%), rear-entry vaginal intercourse (22.22%), characters with race other than Caucasian (5.56%), and cunnilingus (5.56%).
"More Mentally Appealing than Physically Arousing (Defined by M > P)
"Film clips that were reported as being more mentally appealing than physically arousing had a mean mental appeal score of 2.38 ± 0.67 and a mean physical arousal score of 2.00 ± 0.62. The coefficients of variation were 0.28 and 0.31, respectively. There was a significant positive correlation between mental appeal and reported physical arousal scores (r = 0.59, P < 0.05). Interestingly, over half of these clips were also found to be the most mentally and physically arousing (55.55%).
"Out of the 90 film clips, 18 met these criteria. They were characterized as having scenes involving male on female sexual positions (66.67%), vaginal intercourse (50.00%), outdoors setting (38.89%), female on male sexual positions (22.22%), characters of non-Caucasian race (16.67%), rear-entry vaginal intercourse (16.67%), cunnilingus (11.11%), partner masturbation (11.11%), missionary position (11.11%), anal intercourse (5.56%), bondage (5.56%), and fellatio (5.56%)."
If it sounds like it's worth including I can write up a blurb with some more context.-Wafulz (talk) 22:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
What a great collection of articles: http://www.nerve.com/specialIssues/MissionaryPosition/ Sarsaparilla (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I got the OK from the president of Blowfish to release one of his images into the GFDL (with credit to Blowfish) and use it in our article as an illustration of the use of specially-shaped sex pillows to enhance the missionary position. He did give the caveat that we would need to specify which image it is since some of them belong to his vendors and thus are not his to release. Anyway, I was thinking any of these images might be relevant (see http://www.blowfish.com/catalog/toys/cushions.html ):
Let me know what you think would be the best, or if you have another idea. Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I have tried to get permission for some other images but didn't receive responses to my emails. I wonder if it would count as fair use if we used GIMP or something to scale them down to thumbnail size? Also, there must be a repository somewhere of pre-1923 public domain images that would be pertinent to this article. I haven't found it yet, though. I'm sure the French were way ahead of us in producing such images; maybe someone on the French Wikipedia can help. Here are the emails I sent:
from Caitlain's Corner <caitlain@gmail.com> date Jan 9, 2008 7:50 AM subject Copy of: Permission request This is a copy of the following message you sent to Caitlain via Caitlain's Corner
This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.caitlainscorner.com from:
Hello, Wikipedia would like to use an image on your website to illustrate its article on the missionary position. The one we want is titled missionary.jpg and has the woman on the bottom with her feet planted on the bed. See http://www.caitlainscorner.com/content/view/189/69/1/1/
Are you willing to release this image into the GNU Free Documentation License so that we can use it? Thanks,
to info@sex-and-relationships.org, date Jan 10, 2008 1:57 PM subject Wikipedia mailed-by gmail.com
hide details Jan 10 (3 days ago)
Reply
Hello, Wikipedia would like to borrow one of your images at http://www.sex-and-relationships.org/man-on-top-sex.html for its article on the missionary position.
I was thinking that one of these might be good for the article:
If you would be willing to release one of these images into the GNU Free Documentation License, then Wikipedia can use it. We can credit the image to Sex & Relationships if you like, and link to your website. The current version of the article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_position
Thank you, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarsaparilla (talk • contribs) 00:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this solve the teddy bear mystery? Sarsaparilla (talk) 01:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know how old the term "missionary position" is? Gustav Klimt had a drawing called "les missionaires" about 100 years ago. Sarsaparilla (talk) 01:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I found this, which may be useful.-Wafulz (talk) 22:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
"For Aquinas, any sexual act other than missionary position intercourse – man on top of woman – was assumed to be a sin of irrational gratification, of lust. Oral sex, sodomy, prostitution – any sex that rejected the one truly acceptable reason for sex within marriage was considered suspect. ‘Omnis luxurious attactus – every erotic stimulation – of the genitals’ in which sex as procreation was averted for pleasure became a form of adultery. ‘The ramparts being defended here are social, not individual. Sins contrary to nature were a direct assault on the institutions that God created to allow fallen men to live with concupiscence’, the author explains (pp. 153–4). Medieval and early modern church leaders feared that the impure act could overwhelm the sexual body of the laity at any turn (p. 166)."Shepard, Benjamin (2004), "Masturbating Madness", Sexualities, 7 (3): 365, doi:10.1177/1363460704044806, ISSN 1363-4607
Here's another one:
"Moreover the historical processes by which we have come see, on the one hand, eroticism as embedded in the psyche, and on the other, sex acts as expressions of power, cannot be separated. Davidson (1998: 178) suggests some of the key points, at which sexuality has become linked to power since antiquity. These include the Christian tradition of bodily integrity, culminating in the purity of the Virgin Mary, which makes the female body into an open space awaiting corruption; the early modern definition of sex crimes in terms of the violation of bodily orifices; the sanctioning of the ‘missionary position’ to make a distinction between bestial and civilized sex; and the Victorian view of the penetrator as active and pleasured and the recipient as passive and as not experiencing pleasure."Hardy, Simon (2004), "The Greeks, Eroticism and Ourselves", Sexualities, 7 (2): 215, doi:10.1177/1363460704042164, ISSN 1363-4607
Translation: "The missionary position was used to differentiation between civilized and "savage" sex."-Wafulz (talk) 22:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
"For Aquinas, any sexual act other than missionary position intercourse – man on top of woman – was assumed to be a sin of irrational gratification, of lust. Oral sex, sodomy, prostitution – any sex that rejected the one truly acceptable reason for sex within marriage was considered suspect. ‘Omnis luxurious attactus – every erotic stimulation – of the genitals’ in which sex as procreation was averted for pleasure became a form of adultery.
I have added a cited observation about Aquinas' view. He does not specifically recommend the missionary position, nor condemn any other; he supports 'the natural style of intercourse' and condemns 'beastly and monstrous techniques'. It is unclear what exactly he means by these terms - he may be referring in general to vaginal- and non-vaginal intercourse, though the fact that he specifies that it should be 'as regards the proper organ' suggests that he is referring to types of vaginal intercourse. It seems to be others, following him, that spelled it out. --Rbreen (talk) 00:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
The Priest article that I used for the etymology and history discusses the symbolism that I mentioned in the peer review (feminist stuff). Basically it mentions how the position can represent power. Where could this go in the article?-Wafulz (talk) 05:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Most, if not all, of the pics associated with this article have the guy holding himself up with his arms. I am thinking we should have one where he's not doing that, since that's a fairly common (if not the standard) and as the article notes, a lot of women prefer the guy to put his weight on her. Sarsaparilla (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Any suggestions for which citation style to use? Cite web, cite book, etc. are standard, right? Should we use the 2008-02-02 format or January 2, 2008 format? Sarsaparilla (talk) 00:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The sourcing in this article is a bit weak. While we have tons of citations, not all of them are complete, and not all of them are particularly good - just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true. A lot of the assertions of how partners feel during sex are unreliable, and we'd essentially be perpetuating amateur opinions by leaving them in.
This is about halfway into the article, so there's still a ways to go.-Wafulz (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
How come the image changed from .svg back to .png? I looked in the edit history, but found nothing except some vandalism... no explanation in the edits or anything of the sort. Anybody care to explain (or revert)? Lady Galaxy 06:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
The See Also section is blank at the moment. Any reason to keep it in light of the nav box at bottom? 66.191.19.68 (talk) 01:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
"Ventro-dorsal", what does it mean? in the sentence
it's obviously referring to doggy style, but in the sentence
it isn't clear what it means, though it seems to suggest the missionary position. Both excerpts from #History.
Stuart M (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The lead sentence of this article says.... "The missionary position is a man on top sex position in which the woman lies on her back and the partners face each other"
Forgive me for saying this, but can't a man top another man as well in the missionary position? Why is this article so discriminatory against homosexuals? To my understanding, I think that two men can have anal sex in the missionary position. So why is this definition of missionary position restricted to heterosexual partners? Or are Wikiepedia editors just prejudice and discriminatory? --Yoganate79 (talk) 08:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Wow dude calm down excuse someone for writing the intro without thinking of every single sex combo. Why not female on top of female? Two men on top of 1? 4 women on top of 1 man (i wish)? Also, how the hell would 2 men have sex in missionary? Stick in each other's urethras? wtf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.97.27 (talk) 11:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
"In addition to humans, the missionary position is also used by certain other species including bonobos[82], gorillas[83] and armadillos.[84]" I checked reference #84. The writer says "The nine-banded armadillo mates missionary style" with the reference "Schueler, 1988". It would be good to get hold of Schueler , and see whether he?she has been accurately reported. The sentence is concluded with the words "when climate conditions are at there best." The mis-spelling does not instill confidence in the writer. Can we regard this web-site as trust-worthy? I find it hard to imagine armadillos engaging in the missionary position. I think the claim is wrong - it certainly is not satisfactorily established - and it may be best to delete it. Froggo Zijgeb (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
The article states that due to Ancient Greek men marrying 14- and 15-year-olds*, the rear-entry standing position was more popular than missionary. How could this be so? Imagining a very tall man with a short woman (even today), what could be more height-differential-friendly than lying down, man on top? Certainly rear-entry used by a couple with a large height differential actually sounds like torture for both of them, no?
The term "ventro-dorsal" is used twice in the article. That term is not really wrong but, in contrast, the term "dorso-ventral" is used in scientific literature. I am going to change "ventro-dorsal" to "dorso-ventral". DPS145192 (talk) 03:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I believe that to cite Germaine Greer as a reliable source against the Psychological benefits of the missionary position is like asking Fred Phelps to discuss homosexuality. The woman has proven herself to be bigoted, as proven by her writings on transsexual women. If she cannot accept transsexual women as women, how reliable can she be as a source on this matter? I'd like to recommend her detrimental citation be removed and something that carries a similar sentiment, yet more netural be written. JessicaSideways (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
This has been noted briefly in other sections on this talk page, but seeing this edit (which I reverted and tweaked) makes me ask it as well: Can't "woman on top of the man" be referred to as the missionary position as well, especially since the term also applies to gay and lesbian couples? I mostly hear the "woman on top" position simply referred to as a variant of the more traditional missionary position, not as the nicknames the above linked article mentions. Flyer22 (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Starfish position was merged here, but this article now contains no mention of it. I don't believe it's just the same thing as missionary. Dcoetzee 09:56, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
I came here from the same link, and I couldn't find a consistent definition from a google search. 85.138.128.15 (talk) 15:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Squashing of the deckchair position redirects here, but this article makes no mention of it. Either the redirect should be deleted, if the content has been excised, or it should be explained as a variant here. Dcoetzee 09:49, 31 October 2012 (UTC)