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More info is needed about this flood which killed about 300,000 people. Anyone interested in doing some research?
172: try to use Pinyin romanization. But if you determined to use other methods, provide redirect links to their respective Pinyin titled pages.Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (chinese) would be helpful. -- User:kt2
I will from now on. I'm sorry.
I think there is a mistake in the date but I don't know the correct answer : "Hung-wu increasingly concentrated power in his own hands and in 1830 abolished the Imperial Secretariat"
Koxinga 12:37 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
"and in any case restrictions on emigration and ship building were largely lifted by the mid-17th century."
Surely this is a mistake?, the Ming dynasty had collapsed by that time, 1644, they were in no position to ban or allow anything.
The phrase `capsized by a tablet' is meaningless, but I'm not sure what was intended.
Fall of Ming dynasty
It is a poorly written article. It is layered in a lot of objectivity. It is does not contain factual data for an encyclopedia.
adam.lang 12:37 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)
This article should be split. Maurreen (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Is there a proper source for the claims that the Ming Dynasty could have been Muslim?
I don't know if this article will ever get wikified unless someone knowledgeable about the subject does it. -- Kjkolb 09:19, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
What happened to it? --Dangerous-Boy 06:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I've glanced over about half of the article, and I can't see any terribly badly worded sections or prevalent mispellings. I've removed the copyedit tag, but of course feel free to add it again if anyone wishes.
I thought the correct pinyin of 朝 was chao?Erik-the-red
Help! This section is really confusing - I have the impression that it's attempting to summarize a mish-mash of different theories about material exchange during the Ming period [AND how that may or may not relate to the overall decline of the dynasty]. The problem is, the summaries are so short that they not only contradict each other, they are sometimes internally contradictory. So, for example:
- what is this connection between the commercial and religious lobbies - how and why do their interests overlap?
- What exactly are the 'anti-clerical efforts of the Confucian scholar gentry' and how is the state funding them?
- If Zheng He is a quintessential outsider to the establishment, and his trips were opposed by the literati, but supported by the merchants, then how can they be described as more political than economic?
- And how can they be both intended "to enroll further states as tributaries and mark the dominance of the Chinese Empire" while being "unlike European voyages of exploration later in the 15th century... not intended to extend Chinese sovereignty overseas" ?
This seems like a fairly complicated, nuanced argument that might deserve some more explanation - does anyone know these sources? Then we've got this thing about Mongols (?) and pirates (?) and silver (blaming the entire fall of the dynasty on silver strikes me as possibly a slight overkill), and at the very last the traditional argument about stagnation. If all these theories are going to get thrown together, it would be so helpful for the reader if there was some synthesis to indicate how they relate to each other. If anyone can shed some light, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll try to figure it out since I'll be doing a fair amount of reading on the Ming d. over then next few months. Isocephaly 04:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I just expanded the intro significantly; the introductory information I have just added will soon be elaborated on in the body of the article. Hold on to your butts people and be patient, this article is going to need a lot of work.
If people have sources and wish to contribute, some key things must be focused upon:
I hope these points will spark some ideas in your heads.--Pericles of AthensTalk 08:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, this turkey is just about overcooked at the size of 101 KB. It has swelled past what some might consider acceptable limits. Please! No one add anything to this article! Unless it is seriously necessary; even then, bring it up on the talk page here before adding it, so that a compromise can be made about size and content. Thanks.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
>GnipTalk 12:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a point of detail, but the complete sentence from Spence (The Search for Modern China, p. 24) is: "As a staff member of the ministry of war, with a good knowledge of European firearms apparently garnered from his cook, who knew some Westerners, Yuan was able to hold the Liao River against Nurhaci" (my emphasis). Spence must have seen a document or a study that mentioned the cook connection, but he couldn't confirm it, and this is probably why he used the word "apparently." And Spence only says that Yuan acquired knowledge of firearms from his cook, not the weapons themselves. I'm not sure what that would mean, but Spence's original sounds less certain than the sentence in the Wiki. Maybe we could add a judicious "perhaps" somewhere?--Madalibi (talk) 09:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Done, plus a few minor modifications. I'm really glad the cook is discussed under such an aptly named sub-section! --Madalibi (talk) 09:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Happy Thanksgiving too, thanks! I wonder if Yuan Chonghuan also received knowledge of turkey from his cook. --Madalibi (talk) 03:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Great picture, Arilang! I hope this is the real thing. What worries me a little bit is that the caption says it was manufactured in England... Does anybody know why? --Madalibi (talk) 08:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure? How can you tell? Arilang talk 08:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I can see now. It was really photoed in Latvia, though not necessary means that it is a fake. I think I got the image from zh:wikipedia, will try to give you the zh:wiki link. Arilang talk 09:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
This is where I got the image from zh:加農炮
紅衣大炮,原名紅夷大炮,最遠射程可達二十里以上,是天啟年間從葡萄牙人購得,為英國製造的早期zh:加農炮。 Arilang talk 10:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Arilang talk 10:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Very briefly: the "invincible general cannon" could be one of the several hundreds of cannon Ferdinand Verbiest cast in the early Kangxi reign. From the 17th-century drawings I've seen, the weapons the Ming bought from the Portuguese probably looked about the same. The cannon on the right is more recent. --Madalibi (talk) 01:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
@Madalabi, I think the Chinese correct name of 'Invincible general cannon' is 「天佑助威大將軍」zh:紅衣大炮 後金在瀋陽利用俘虜過來的工匠劉漢,成功仿製了西洋大炮,定名為「天佑助威大將軍」,他們還創造了「失蠟法」,化鑄鐵為鑄鋼 Arilang talk 06:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Not so spelt in Portuguese: the linked article on Fernão Pires de Andrade has got it wrong. I've corrected the spelling. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 19:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I just created this article, which has lots of valuable info for the mid Ming Dynasty and the Ming Mongols section of this article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 10:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations to all concerned! Thoroughly deserved. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Mingshi is the official history book of the Ming dynasty. I want to read this historiography which is translated into Enlish in the Internet. I had tried to find something like this but I found nothing. Can anyone here give me the link of the English online version of Mingshi? Thanks so much,--Redflowers (talk) 09:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I was surprised to see (unless I missed it) nothing on the sexual habits of the Ming. How did they reproduce? I hear there is some good material, about love of women as well as love of youths, in Timothy Brook's book The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China. If no one here has it I will look for it. Haiduc (talk) 11:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
There was a rich variety of occupations and employments one could choose or inherit from a father's line of work. This would include—but certainly was not limited to—coffinmakers, ironworkers and blacksmiths, tailors, cooks and noodle-makers, retail merchants, tavern, teahouse, or winehouse managers, shoemakers, seal cutters, pawnshop owners, and merchant bankers engaging in a proto-banking system involving notes of exchange.[187][89]
Brothels also did a thriving business, catering to the tastes of the refined upper classes. Refined gentlemen enjoyed the favors of girls as well as boys, who fetched a much higher price....
Urban shops and retailers sold a variety of goods such as special paper money to burn at ancestral sacrifices . . .
--Haiduc (talk) 19:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
This image is well used in the article. If someone want to say it's faked, please cite the sources. --LaGrandefr (talk) 10:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Aside from the gigantic, erroneous extra territory in Manchuria that this map claims for the Ming, Tibet was also never part of the Ming Empire; they were merely a tributary state of the Ming. From Alex McKay's book The History of Tibet (2003, Routledge, ISBN 0415308429) on page 65:
In 1368 the Mongol Yuan Dynasty was replaced by the Ming, who were in no position to interfere in Tibet although they did perpetuate the illusion of overlordship by receiving the so-called "tribute emissaries" and granting titles to several of the guard lamas.
Tibet was not dominated by China again until the 18th century during the high Qing Dynasty. Showing a map of the Ming that includes its vassal states is misleading to the general reader unaware of what is under direct administration and what is a vassal state. In fact, this map makes no attempt to distinguish what is vassal and what is not. It simply places all under a gigantic yellow blob. How is this helpful or encyclopedic, I ask?--Pericles of AthensTalk 11:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Dude, you are placing "TravelChinaGuide" and primary source documents written in the Ming Dynasty from "China Tibet Information Center" that have not been commented on by a secondary scholarly source...over McKay's book I just cited above? Tibet was merely a tributary state, any claim of authority the Ming court had over Tibet was nominal and did not reflect any administrative reality. Your obstinate statement "I don't see the debate" clearly shows that you do not understand what a scholarly source is. A commercial entity like "TravelChinaGuide" is not a peer-reviewed university research team; by using it, you are making your argument incredibly weak and unsubstantiated. And you have also failed to address my point that this map does not adequately distinguish the difference between what was directly administered and what was a vassel entity.--Pericles of AthensTalk 12:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Guy, in my opnion, we can just give the sources, but not choose the sources according to personal willings.
What? What does this even mean?--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You just search History of Tibet + Dynasty Ming by google or anything else, you can find a great number of sources, not just "TravelChinaGuide".
How does this refute what I've stated about scholarly sources?Pericles of AthensTalk 13:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
For the relation between China and Tibet, 1st, the system of tributary for Imperial China is quite hard to desribe. The concept country is invented in the modern world, which cannot be easily used for those ancient cases. 2nd, even in modern times, a leader of a country can/will be summoned or titled by another country? The judicial power can be controled by another? etc. I'm sorry that I cannot find an example.
So, if I was to follow your argument that Tibet was not a "country" but simply an administered part of the Ming Empire due to its obligation of appearing at the Ming court with tribute, then by extension, Joseon Korea and the Malacca Sultanate were also part of the Ming Empire, because, afterall, they paid tribute to the Ming court too. I'm sorry, your arugment does not hold water; even more important, you're not backing this up with any sources to refute McKay's book. Tisk, tisk.--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, Image:Ming-China1.jpg and Image:Ming-Empire2.jpg are made by the same author de:Louis le Grand, from the same source History Atlas of China, I cannot understand why one can be used, and the other cannot.
Because Ming-China1 jpg does not distinguish between what is a vassal state and what was under direct administration of the Ming Empire, while Ming-Empire2 jpg does not claim any territory that is undue to it. I don't care if the Fairy Godmother made one, and Jesus Christ and Elvis worked together to author the other map. One is patently false and one is closer to reality.--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
And there is also a map in the artile which shows the samallest territory of Ming, so Image:Ming-China1 jpg shows its largest territory, this should be a featured article
Now your logic escapes me. How does this justify the use of a map that does not distinguish Tibet as a tributary, but rather lumps it under the Ming Empire in the same way it could for Korea and Malacca? Hell, while we're at it, why not say that Borneo, Champa, Hormuz, the Philippines, Calicut, and Cambodia were all part of the Ming Empire, because they paid tribute to the Ming court as well. You don't see how ridiculous your argument is?--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I am with PericlesofAthens because I have enough evidences to say that the original map was still right and the new map uploaded by LaGrandefr which is very pro-Chinese colonialism (they want to occupy Tibet with many shameful ways and many crazy reasons) and I know that's wrong from the first time I see it. Open your eyes and see the true map of Ming Dynasty (Hmm, I think you must learn more about Chinese History, LaGrandefr but not the brainwash education from Chinese Communists!):
[some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter]
I think this silly discussion should be stop and revert back to the better last version which was OK. I think I will invite some admins if this problems still happening in next 2-3 days.
Angelo De La Paz (talk) 15:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Angelo De La Paz (talk) 16:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
-[ www dot artfaces dot com /artkids/oriental dot htm artfaces dot com ] -[ en dot tibet dot cn /history/his/t20050309 14413 dot htm tibet dot cn ] -[ www dot onlineopinion dot com dot au /view.asp?article=7142&page=0 onlineopinion dot com dot au ] -[ www dot tibetinfor dot com /tibetzt-en/tangka/doc/02 dot htm tibetinfor dot com ] -[ www dot tibet-tour dot com /tibet/thangka dot html tibet-tour dot com ] -[ www dot china dot org dot cn /english/tibet-english/lishi dot htm china dot org dot cn ] -[ www dot tibettravel dot info /chamdo/chamdo-history dot html tibettravel dot info ] -[ www dot presscluboftibet dot org /tibet-4/tibetan-history dot htm presscluboftibet org ] -[ history dot howstuffworks dot com /asian-history/history-of-tibet dot htm howstuffworks dot com ] -[ www dot china-embassy dot ch /eng/ztnr/xzzt/t138746 dot htm china-embassy dot ch ] -[ www dot flying com tw /travel/trip/tibet/tibet-3 dot htm flying dot com dot tw ] -[ news.bbc.co.uk/chinese/trad/hi/newsid_1340000/newsid_1346900/1346944.stm bbc.co.uk ] -[ www dot tibet-trip dot com/zoujin/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=59 tibet-trip dot com ] -[ news dot guoxue dot com/print.php?articleid=15315 guoxue dot com ] -[ www dot fmcoprc dot gov dot hk /chn/topic/zjxb/xb12s/xzhk/t46781 dot htm fmcoprc dot gov dot hk ] -[ peacehall dot com /forum/200803/renquan2008/147023 dot shtml peacehall dot com ] -[ www dot tibet dot gov dot cn /getCommonContent.do?contentId=341768 tibet dot gov dot cn ] etc.
As you can see that the people here are disagree with your new map (included myself, a Chinese mix and recently User:Josuechan) because we know you are wrong. Mostly sources have showed that the map of China under Ming Dynasty was smaller (only Eastern part of nowaday China). Find out on Google:
Don't worry! I will invite some main contributors of WikiProject China and some admins as soon as possible. But now, I am giving the last chance for you!
Angelo De La Paz (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
LaGrandefr, I am still unclear as to what your argument is, or what you think your "sources" are explaining. Are you arguing that Tibet was a sheng (province) of the Ming Dynasty? <-- Which would be totally false and absurd. Or are you arguing that it does not matter that the map you are propagating (i.e. Image:Ming-China1.jpg) does not distinguish (by using different and separate colors for political entities) what was directly administered and what was an independent yet vassal tributary state neighboring the Ming? As to your point about "showing opinions", I'm sorry, what you are doing is original research if you are relying on the pictures of primary source documents from "China Tibet Information Center", which is not a scholarly journal article or a peer-reveiwed and published book. Since you are not a historian and have not written a book on Ming-Tibet relations, you have no authority to make judgments about Ming court documents stating things such as "We gave the Tibetan Lama such and such titles today, because he is under the power of the Great Ming, mu-ha-ha-ha!", etc. and things along those lines (note I am being half-serious here). It's about primacy of sources, LaGrandefr. A book published by Routledge (i.e. McKay's book) is to be trusted over "TravelChinaGuide dot com". If I can't make you understand that simplest of simple ideas, then a Wikipedia administrator will make you understand that.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You speak of McKay's book, I didn't read it.
I'm sorry, but feigning ignorance is no excuse, you can access his book on Google Books right here: http://books.google.com/books?id=DVZ0gdBp6u0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=History+of+Tibet&sig=Nhl4nuR2V9ToeePc6hzXPm891tA#PPA65,M1
It's not even just McKay, it's a well-known historical fact that Tibet was not part of the Ming Empire, which is what you are trying to suggest in a very poor and pathetic fashion. If you are obstinate and choose to disregard this clear-cut evidence from McKay's book (and others, shall I gather more texts?), then you certainly do not belong on Wikipedia. However, you might want to consider writing novels and historical fiction, since that seems to be your interest.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me make a conclusion of relations between of China and Tibet during the dynasty of Ming
No, let's not do that at all. Your argument should be grounded in secondary source scholarly articles or books and NOTHING else. Capiche?--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
But it controled it, even just [following link edited because it triggered Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot history hyphen of hyphen china dot com/ming-dynasty/economic-of-ming-dynasty dot html] at the height of its power.
Again, with the ".com" sites; you honestly don't understand why those sites should be avoided? Always stick to ".edu" sites if you want anyone to take your argument seriously.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I cite the sources that I find, this is a job for every wikipedia users.
It's also the job of every Wikipedian to make sure those "sources" aren't full of BS. Quite frankly, I find all of these ".com" sites of yours a laughingstock compared to any serious research done by professors and historical authors who publish through university presses or respected journals or trade presses. You should be ashamed of yourself as a Wikipedian.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
TravelChinaGuide dot com is just the fiste page that I found by google, it means nothing at all.
You say it means nothing at all, yet you earlier tried to legitimize your "house-of-cards" argument by using "TravelChinaGuide". So which is it? Trustworthy as a credible source? Or an untrustworthy commercial site geared towards encouraging tourism that any serious historian wouldn't consider even glancing at? The answer should be painfully obvious.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I've already give so many others sources. You cites one book, frankly, if I want to look for a book which tells that tibet was Chinese during Ming, I can find 100000~~ in China.
So far you have shown no map to supplement the one you're propagating. You have brought to the table ".com" sites, sites not in English (this is an English wikipedia after all), an embassy site (these are diplomatic politicians, not historians), and PRC government sites that are so far pretty laughable. And if you can find "100,000" books in China that claim the same bizarre thing that you are claiming, then I would like to see them; so far you've shown me not one piece of scholarly evidence that contradicts McKay's book. I repeat, not one. So don't go making claims you can't back up.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
And on a final note here, the Ming court's granting of nominal noble titles and accepting tribute from Tibet has nothing to do with conquering, ruling, subjugating, and administering Tibet (as the Qing would later do). You seem not to notice the difference.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, with the ".com" sites; you obviously don't understand why those sites should be avoided? Always stick to ".edu" sites if you want anyone to take your argument seriously.
Please forgive my naivety, since when people cannot cite the websites with the ".com"?
Maybe just this once I will; ".com" sites are OK to use if you are reporting current events, such as "so and so died today, the public reaction was so and so, this political leader of China said it was a tragic loss, blah, blah, blah." However, ".com" sites are never to be used for making assertions and scholarly analysis of political history. That would be like saying the United States dominated the political administration and politicians of Canada and coerced them into fighting in a historical war (take your pick) because it was America's neighbor, and then citing "Billy-Bob's-Fried-Country-Steakhouse-Grill dot com" as evidence.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You often edit wikipedia? The websites are cited everywhere in Wikipedia. If you want soooooo much a citation of one book(in fact, the image is based on a book, History altas of China), ok, I will go to buy a book. Please wait some days and please don't change the image all the time. It presents a view point(not mine) after all.--LaGrandefr (talk) 17:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
First of all, Image:Ming-Empire2.jpg comes from "History and Commercial Atlas of China, Harvard University Press, 1905" while your pathetic image map Image:Ming-China1.jpg claims its source as this commercial ".com" site with ads littering the page:
[some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ military dot china dot com /zh cn/history2/06/11027560/20050527/12348629 dot html ]
Hmm...let's balance this out here logically; one map comes from the Harvard University Press, one of the most distinguished scholarly printing presses in the world, and the other comes from a ridiculous ".com" site with a Super Mario add at the top. I wonder which one is more credible?!
Second of all, your map is in German! I'm sorry, but this is an English wikipedia; I hope those from France such as yourself can discern the stark difference between German and English.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You bothered creating a new map, but didn't heed a word of what was discussed here? How many times do I have to repeatedly state it: if you're going to make a map with Tibet included in it, Tibet should not be under the same color of political entity as China proper, the heart of the Ming Empire. It should be given a separate color to distinguish it as a vassal state (and if you include Tibet, why not Korea, which is also shown on the map and was a vassal state?). I'm starting to suspect that you don't know what a vassal state is, one which pays tribute as a foreign country, while a directly-governed province of an empire pays administrator's taxes to the central government. If you still don't know the difference between the two, then there's nothing that I or anyone can do to help you (I wish I could speak French, so that I could better help you understand). I can only revert your new map every time you place it here, and request from a moderator that you steer clear from this article, as you seem to be here merely to jeopardize article stability and ignore others' input regardless of facts from sources demonstrating the false political boundaries of your map. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but your refusal to cooperate and listen to the feedback of other editors is astounding.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I made this map on the basis of the original map made by Sinomap Press, ISBN:7503103841. I won't and can't change it according to my personal willing. Thanks--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I have created a new section on Tibet listing the arguments of scholars who believed that Tibet was a foreign country offering tribute to the Ming court through diplomatic affairs, and the arguments of two scholars who assert that Tibetan officials were employed by the Ming (due to granting of titles) and were offering corvee payments in a domestic system, not as foreigners.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
A large paragraph can be removed! & A well-sourced map can be rejected! This is a best English wikipedia! LaGrandefr (talk) 12:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Due to the content dispute, I asked for an admin to fully protect the article, as I am not one myself. I think we all need to take a step back, and cool down. I'm not an admin, but I have mediated a few disputes before. So, here is what I suggest. Each editor (who has been editing this article recently) should calmly state their views, and if possible, show diffs, or provide external sources to verify/add weight to their views. I'd ask we all be civil, and keep a cool head. Cheers, Steve Crossin (talk to me) 14:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Once the protection ban on this article is lifted, I intend to add this to the Tibetan sub-section of the article to counter the argument of Wang and Nyima that Tibet was part of the Ming Empire.
In their argument, Wang and Nyima failed to mention the ongoing civil war between Tibetan lama monasteries during the Ming Dynasty—the two major sects being the "Red Caps" and "Yellow Caps" which employed their own guards of armed monks.[1] Fred W. Riggs states that the Red Cap sect "tended to look to China for help" while the Yellow Cap Sect was in league with the Western Mongol federation.[1] The fifth high lama of the Yellow Cap sect proclaimed that his sect was to be the official religion of Tibet in 1642, after his predecessor had been granted the title 'Dalai Lama' by the Mongols.[1]
The source used is Riggs, Fred W. "Tibet in Extremis," Far Eastern Survey (Volume 19, Number 21, 1950): 224–230.
If Tibet was an administered part of Ming China, then why did the Ming avoid intervening in this civil war, which, according to User:LaGrandefr, was on their claimed soil? If Tibet was part of the Ming Empire, then how could rivaling sects within their empire be allied with the Oirat Mongols, the enemies of the Ming Dynasty? If the Ming titles granted to leading Tibetan "officials" had any great significance, then why did the Ming court just sit back and watch the Oirat Mongol federation confer titles onto the same Tibetans?
I think User:LaGrandefr, claiming to be an innocent Frenchman, has a PRC political ax to grind in all of his zealous efforts to promote his bogus map while ignoring McKay's book which I cited above, and I'm sure he'll also ignore this as well, because I don't think User:LaGrandefr is here to contribute like other normal Wikipedia editors. In fact, looking at his edit history, he joined recently and all of his edits are focused on this one article. Take a hint, moderators.
One should never politicize history so that it can fit nice and neat with the desires of people in current affairs; I hope LaGrandefr contemplates this before making a response.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
ming_1443.png is not my map, it's drawn by SinoMap Press, which is the only national-level map publisher in China. I know there are many maps about Ming Dynasty, just like User:Angelo_De_La_Paz has given above. But among them, each map is not identical, because each scholar has his own opinion. But ming_1443.png is the only official map up to now, although there are some disputes. Same example like PRC's map, there are also many disputed territories, we can just paste the official map drawn by PRC's government. As for us, we can only note the disputed territories, in my opinion.--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The original map is [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot spratlys dot org /maps/5/ming dot jpg] here, I won't and can't modify the map according to my willing.--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Was Tibet an administered part of Ming China? Different people conclude different results. I introduce you a book, Mingshi(明史), written in 1739 by the succeeding dynasty Qing Dynasty, which is the official Chinese historical works. I think any research (including someone's McKay)will be powerless face to it, because it's the book of book that records the whole offical history of Ming Dynasty and every research about Ming Dynasty should base on it. In this book, it says the territory of Ming begins with Chosŏn in the East, occupies Tubo in the West, includes Annam in the South, reaches the Great Desert in the North.(東起朝鮮,西據吐番,南包安南,北距大磧) And Tubo is the ancient name of Tibet in Chinese. So I don't see where is the dispute.--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Certainly Mingshi is much more reliable than Sinomap. However, the map LaGrandefr proposed here is not from Mingshi, but Sinomap. So it's an "official" map in the sense that it's approved by the PRC government. Worse, according to the quoted sentence (計明初封略,東起朝鮮,西據吐番,南包安南,北距大磧用), Vietnam should also be part of Ming, but how come the map didn't include it? So is LaGrandefr opposing his own map? Interesting. In fact, Vietnam has a better claim to be part of Ming because 1) an administrative unit (布政使司) was set up there; 2) Ming army actually occupied the region till mid-Ming. (see Mingshi vol. 40 志第十六 地理一). But these didn't happen to Tibet.
Well, well, certainly I'm not suggesting a map that includes Vietnam because such a map would be misleading. A more appropriate treatment is to discuss the subtleties in an appropriate section. It is even more so with Tibet. Josuechan (talk) 16:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Josuechan (talk) 16:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Different people conclude different results.
Which is outlined in the article due to the new section I created, yes. Does this warrant your controversial map to be touted as the lead picture in the article? NO. If you wish to keep your picture, the only compromise I will make is having it placed in the Tibet sub-section, where the issue about scholarly debate is discussed. I ask how is this not sensible, since the other map is valid and is printed by Harvard University Press.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I introduce you a book, Mingshi(明史), written in 1739 by the succeeding dynasty Qing Dynasty, which is the official Chinese historical works. I think any research (including someone's McKay)will be powerless face to it, because it's the book of book that records the whole offical history of Ming Dynasty and every research about Ming Dynasty should base on it.
First off, YOU are not a historian, YOU are not qualified to analyze or make judgements about primary source documents (in this case, the Mingshi, written almost 300 years ago), and to say that McKay's book (and other scholars I've mentioned in the article) is invalid because of what is stated in the Mingshi is ridiculous beyond all belief. Unlike modern university research and private publishing without fear of censorship or government interference, the Mingshi was a history commissioned by the Qing court which was in the process of subjugating Tibet to Qing rule; it is a politically-correct and sponsored history, unlike Sima Qian's Shiji, which was independent of political baggage. I think it is safe to say that if Zhang Tingyu, employed by the Qing court, had portrayed the reality of Tibet-Ming relations as we in modern times understand it, Emperor Qianlong would have fired him and hired a new leading editor.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
begins with Chosŏn in the East, occupies Tubo in the West, includes Annam in the South, reaches the Great Desert in the North.
Bravo, Mr. History! Well, I guess dumbing down everything into one sentence proves it alright; surely there was no nuanced narrative to the story of Tibet-Ming relations, surely the Tibetans never wrote about their own affairs, and surely there's no information about Tibet from the time period besides the Mingshi. Sheesh, even Wang and Nyima aren't brazen enough to claim the Ming "occupies Tubo in the West". I'm sorry, but any credibility that the Mingshi had just went down the toilet drain, along with your credibility.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
So I don't see where is the dispute.
That's because you're placing blind faith and total, unmitigated trust in every sentence of the Mingshi (a politically-sponsored history), which has been found to contain faults and inaccuracies by modern scholars, such as Timothy Brook to name one. Try finding a book written in at least the past 100 years (and not sanctioned by a government entity), and maybe someone won't completely laugh and discard your argument. And the last I checked, you are not a historian and you are certainly not bringing any scholarly sources to the table to back your claims.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The official map is like this
No, SinoMap Press does not make "official maps," this is a controversial map contested by scholars that I've already noted in the new Tibet section of the article. Your argument is so lame that I don't even think you're trying anymore to make sense at all. Please, go edit an article that does not require much from scholarly input. I know! You can bring Pee-wee's Playhouse up to featured article status! That would be the perfect article for someone with your level of "professionalism".--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I have nothing to say if you mischief like this.
I see only one person creating mischief here, and it certainly isn't User:Yaan.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Mistakes cannot stay in a featured article like this way.
^ From Steve's user page, as he requested I keep the argument here.
The only person making an egregious mistake here is you, after you have repeatedly ignored scholarly sources on the vassal status of Tibet, not directly-governed status. I seriously question your motives, since you seem to have joined Wikipedia on March 28 simply to plug your dubious map into the Ming article, all the while failing to address the points that other editors have made about the map, SinoMap Press, and scholarly books and articles which refute the boundaries portrayed in your map. Drop this "I'm an innocent little kid with a lolly-pop" act, it's not fooling anyone. In fact, since you've joined, you've also redirected a page, uploaded images with ease, created a custom-made map for upload, and now crafted this table here with wiki command codes, something any new and amateur editor is typically unable to do because they haven't had enough experience (I sure didn't know how to do any of that in my first week of editing).
LeGrandefr's table:
Date | User | Dispute | Responce |
---|---|---|---|
09:53, 28 March 2008 | User:Angelo De La Paz | accuse to use unsourced new fake map | I added the source in no time [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ military dot china dot com /zh cn/history2/06/11027560/20050527/12348629 dot html ] |
10:18, 28 March 2008 | User:Angelo De La Paz | not English version map | I promised to make a English map. |
13:28, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | no scholarly sources | I cited dozens of sites, official or scholastic, Chinese or non-Chinese, pro-communist or anti-communist. |
16:55, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | ".com" sites cannot be used | For this point, I've never heard. |
12:40, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | pester with TravelChinaGuide dot com, the first site that I found by google | dozens of sites cited |
15:17, 28 March 2008 | User:Angelo De La Paz | claimed that I have had a brainwash education | I cited wiki orders like Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Patent nonsense. |
15:59, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | accuse to do original research | Up to now, I've never given my proper opinion and always persuade others not to stick to personal willing. |
17:00, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | still stuck to TravelChinaGuide.com | I cited History Atlas of China SinoMap Press, ISBN:7503103841 |
17:19, 28 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | accepted the credible source with an ISBN and expressed a new map in English would be super. | I made the new English map ming_1443.png in a whole night. |
16:46, 30 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | critics of the false political boundaries | Same source, same map, where's difference? |
21:44, 31 March 2008 | User:PericlesofAthens | conjecture of my background | I'm not from China, I don't know Communists. |
05:06, 1 April 2008 | User:Balthazarduju | ask for the link to the original map | I offered immediately. |
13:59, 1 April 2008 | User:Yaan | demand the existence of Choson and Annam | They are not in Ming's territory in the original map, I cannot modify the map myself. |
Do I smell a previously banned wiki account, or worse, sock puppetry?--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
This quote comes from WP:SOCKPUPPET
Not surprisingly, sock puppet accounts usually show much greater familiarity with Wikipedia and its editing process than most newcomers. They are more likely to use edit summaries, immediately join in existing edit wars, or participate vocally in procedures like Articles for deletion or Requests for adminship as part of their first few edits. They are also more likely to be brand new or a single purpose account when looking at their contributions summary.
Hahahahaha! Dude, every single point in that quotation describes LaGrandefr completely! Oh, I am on to you, buddy.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I have no more willing to talk with you, you have already run into a totally insane state and you are just an extremely sceptic. You can suspect everything that you don't believe, even with plenty of sources given to you. Could I ask you whether you really know about Mingshi? This book is the most authoritative source of all researches about Ming Dynasty to each scholar. You said the author cheated in this official historical works, written 300 years ago, to join Tibet into Ming China, so why don't you say that the author just want to vent his anger because a Tibetan has slept with the his woman. It seems more logical, in my opinion. How can it exsits a person so stubbron and gossipy like you, it's incredible!--LaGrandefr (talk) 08:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
First off, why are you posting your reply in quotation format? This is the second time you've done that; that's a bit odd. Second, you have not given me plenty of sources, I'm the only one who has supported your argument with the scholarly source of Wang and Nyima, and they make a pretty flimsy argument themselves (which I have fairly displayed and recounted in the new section on Tibet in the article). Thirdly, despite the fact that the Mingshi is the "most authoritative source of all researches about Ming Dynasty" simply because of its scope and size, does not make it infallible or lacking in error. I never said the author(s) "cheated in this official historical works," that is you putting words into my mouth. Good job! The scholars of the Mingshi were of 18th century minds; they read the Ming court documents stating that Tibet was "all under heaven" and was subjugated by titles, and they did not doubt this. I cannot fault them for that, or lacking full comprehensive sources (including Tibetan perspectives on their own affairs) which modern historians now have at their disposal to prove that Tibetan leaders were autonomous. What I said was, if the Mingshi editors understood what we know today in the modern world about Ming-era Tibet, they would not have quickly come to the conclusion that "Tubo was occupied in the West", and arguably Qianlong would have been displeased with that part of the Mingshi if this was the case. Get it??--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
How can it exsits a person so stubbron and gossipy like you, it's incredible!
Personal attack, anyone? First you put words into my mouth that I never said, and then you accuse me of making those statements, as well as being gossipy and stubborn! How innocent of you. That's what we call a strawman argument. I'm on to you pal, as I have reason to believe you are a sockpuppet, and I have a suspicious IP number that might tell all. We'll just wait and see, won't we sugar-bumps?--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
All in all, some guys have exhausted me. Why don't you just open your eyes and accept more opinion? I won't respond any more the gossipy arguments, now that I've offered plenty of sources above. The effect speaks, the tongue needs not, I choose to be silent in waiting the response of admins.
“ | I offer a map, ming_1443.png, drawn by [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot sinomaps dot com /english/html/home dot html Sinomap Press], ISBN 7503103841, the original map of Ming china is [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot spratlys dot org/maps/5/ming dot jpg here]. And Sinomap Press is the only national-level map publisher in China. It has that it specially represents the most authentic and reliable map publisher on drafting the standard boundaries and administrative division boundaries of China.
Up to now, the only controversy in this map is about the position of Tibet. I cited Mingshi, officially compiled in 1739 by the succeeding dynasty Qing Dynasty. It is one of the 24 official Chinese historical works and the very source that every research of Ming Dynasty must base on it. In this book, it says the territory of Ming begins with Chosŏn in the East, occupies Tubo in the West, includes Annam in the South, reaches the Great Desert in the North.(東起朝鮮,西據吐番,南包安南,北距大磧) And Tubo is the ancient name of Tibet in Chinese. So Mingshi has well proved Tibet was in Ming China at the period and the only controversy of ming_1443.png no longer exists. |
” |
Please don't respond in this section, I just want to wait the final response of admins. Last sentences for some guys, ignorance is the mother of suspicions and truth will conquer.--LaGrandefr (talk) 09:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why there's an argument here. There is already more than one map. Why do we need this one? Why do we need so many and what are the reasons for favoring this one over the other?
We need to be clear on what the map is depicting. The Westphalian notion of nation-states with clearly delineated boundaries did not exist in Ming China. There were lands administered directly under imperial authorities, lands administered by local authorities with the supervision of imperial authorities, lands administered by tributaries, and unknown lands. --Jiang (talk) 12:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
moreover, Tibet was also considered to be a "barbaric" region in the ancient times.
And your point is? Any place not considered China proper or under Chinese dynastic hegemony was consider a "barbarian" land. My question is why are you so hell-bent on this map showing the tributary vassal Tibet under direct Chinese rule, while ignoring other neighboring tributaries which could be classed in the same manner? You've failed to address this point, along with many others, hence my suspicion about your agenda here.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
PericlesofAthens: This has gone far enough. You have every right to state your opinion, but this text below (not the source, the comments), and as the image, are unacceptable. As such, I have removed the image. I will not tolerate incivility, biting newcomers, mockery, or personal attacks. Understood? Steve Crossin (talk to me) 04:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
WARNING. Certain users may experience total and utter earth-shattering disappointment that their argument has been mercilessly beaten and torn apart by Turrell V. Wylie in the following section, as the Mingshi loses all credibility as a direct and reliable scholarly source. Wikipedia users should use the Mingshi with caution and a grain of salt while consulting modern secondary source literature of scholarly books and journals to check and verify their arguments!--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This is rich; to further buttress the points of scholars I've already mentioned here on the talk page and in the main article, I point to this chapter "Lama Tribute in the Ming Dynasty" by Turrell V. Wylie, pages 467-473 in the book History of Tibet (Volume II):
...the payment of tribute in Ming times cannot be interpreted as evidence of China's suzerainty over any country. Li Tieh-tseng himself noted that the tribute missions were highly profitable to the lamas and became such a drain on the Ming treasury that they had to be curtailed. If the purpose of the Ming policy towards the lamas were to maintain Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, then surely such control depended on means other than the so-called "tribute missions."
This brings us to the issue of the bestowal of titles and seals on the lamas. Both Chinese authors cited in this paper interpret this as a continuation by the Ming emperors of the lama policy of the preceding Yuan dynasty and that it constituted the official renewal of appointments made by the Mongol emperors. Li Tieh-tseng wrote that "Most of the offices were hereditary under the Yuan dynasty. Their occupants, in command of one thousand or ten thousand families, were reappointed with new patents." He refers, of course, to the offices of a chiliarch and a myriarch; offices which were in effect during the lifetime of the Mongol-imposed Sa-skya government.
I have dealt with the first Mongol conquest of Tibet in the 13th century in some detail elsewhere. Suffice it here to say that following the census of 1268, Khubilai Khan had central Tibet divided into thirteen myriarchies for purposes of taxation and administration. The hierocratic he imposed on Tibet employs lamas as viceroys with administrative headquarters at Sa-Skya. Historically, Tibet came under Mongol domination a decade before China was finally conquered by the armies of Khubilai Khan.
In the middle of the 14th century, Tibetans led by the myriarch of Phag-mo-gru rebelled against the Sa-Skya government. Mongol military failed to intervene and Sa-Skya was overthrown. The Phag-mo-gru myriarch became the de facto ruler of Tibet and the Mongol Emperor Toghun Temür conferred on him the seal and title of T'ai Si-tu. The Phag-mo-gru ruler established a new form of centralized government with headquarters at Sne-gdong in the Yar-klungs district. He replaced the myriarchy system imposed by the Mongols with administrative units called rdzong, each governed by an official appointed by him. Thus, the "lama-patron" relationship (yon-mchod) which, beginning with Khubilai Khan and 'Phags-pa of Sa-Skya, had been the underlying principle of the Mongol-imposed polity in Tibet, came to an end. Historically then, Tibet became independent of Mongol domination before the Ming dynasty ever came into existence. In view of such chronology, one cannot help but question the validity of the claim that Tibetan myriarchs—whose offices had ceased to exist—"were reappointed with new patents" by the Ming emperors.
The Chinese authors cited in this paper view the Ming policy as a continuation of the Mongol policy towards the lamas. Granted that the myriarchs and other officials of Tibet were confirmed in office by the Mongols, the primary sources make it clear that the khans focused their political support on lamas of the Sa-Skya sect as their viceroys. Contrastingly, the Chinese emperors of the Ming dynasty lavished rewards and titles on all leading lamas who accepted the invitation to come to court, regardless of their sectarian affiliations. The Ming Shih lists various titles bestowed on lamas; eight of which end in the title "King" (Chinese: Wang). A contemporary Tibetan text notes that the Ming emperor bestowed the office and title of Dhang (phonetically: Wang) on the hierarch of Phag-mo-gru, but it then states that the hierarchs of 'Bi-khung, Rtse-dgong, and Gling were equally given that title as well.
Even though the Chinese authors cited regard the entitlement of lamas as the renewal of appointments made earlier by the Mongol emperors, evidence contained in the Ming Shih itself disproves such an interpretation.
So here LaGrandefr is, trying to use the Mingshi (as he states here, his 'Bible' of Ming history) as the prime text to secure and validate his point about rule over Tibet, and even the Mingshi contradicts him! Oh this is too much for words. Irony, much?
More to come...--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Continuing his point on the next page, from pages 469 to 470:
Consider first the title Ta Pao Fa Wang ("Great Precious King of the [Buddhist] Law"). This was the same title Khubilai Khan gave to 'Phags-pa Lama of Sa-Skya as his Imperial Teacher and Viceroy of Tibet. If it were the intention of the Ming emperors to continue the Mongol policy towards the lamas, then one would have expected that this exalted title would have been bestowed on a descendent of the Sa-Skya lineage in order to perpetuate—even if only symbolically—a semblence of the "lama-patron" relationship that pertained in the Mongol dynasty. Or even better from the pragmatic view of maintaining suzerainty, that title should have gone to the successor of T'ai Si-tu of Phagmo-gru as the de facto ruler of Tibet. Notwithstanding, these historical or political considerations, the title of "Great Precious King of the Law" was bestowed according to the Ming Shih in the year 1407 by the Yung-lo Emperor on the fifth hierarch of the Black-hat Karma-pa sect.
It is impossible to interpret this entitlement of the Karma-pa hierarch as a "renewal of appointment" by the Ming emperor for the simple reason that the Black-hat Karma-pa lamas were not appointed to myriarchic office during the previous Mongol dynasty. In fact, the Black-hat Karma-pa is said to have been politically eclipsed by Khubilai Khan because Karma Bakshi, second hierarch of the sect, refused Khubilai's invitation to become his court lama. Logically, if the Black-hat Karma-pa hierarchs had not been appointed to office by the Mongol emperors, then there could be no "reappointment to office" by succeeding Chinese emperors.
A successor of the famous 'Phags-pa Lama of Sa-Skya was given a title, albeit a new one; namely Ta Ch'eng Fa Wang ("King of the Law of the Great Vehicle" [=Mahayana]).
As for the Phag-mo-gru hierarch, de facto ruler of Tibet at the time, it is said he was the first to go to the Ming court. The Ming Shih refers to him as the "acting Imperial Teacher" and states that the emperor changed his title to the lesser one of "State Teacher" (kuo shih). Decades later, however, one of the successors of the Phag-mo-gru hierarch was given the more exalted title of Shan Huo Wang ("King Who Teaches Liberation").
Even more important to the contention that the Ming policy cannot be regarded as one of renewing official appointments is the case of Chos-rje Shākya Ye-shes, a personal disciple of Tsong-ka-pa, founder of the Yellow-hat Dge-lugs-pa sect. The Yung-lo Emperor repeatedly invited Tsong-ka-pa to come to court, but he declined. Tsong-ka-pa finally sent his disciple, Chos-rje Shākya Ye-shes, in his stead. On his first visit to the court, this disciple was given the title of "State Teacher"; the same title originally given the Phagmo-gru ruler of Tibet. On a later visit to the court, this disciple received the title of Ta Tz'u Fa Wang ("Great Compassionate King of the Buddhist Law") from the Hsüan-te Emperor.
Chos-rje Shākya Ye-shes was just one among the many disciples of Tsong-ka-pa, yet he received a title with the pompous designation of "King". Presumably, he was then regarded as being on the same religious plane as the hierarchs of the Black-hat Karma-pa, the Sa-Skya-pa, and others who also were given the title of a "King".
Again, it is impossible to regard the title bestowed on Chos-rje Shākya Ye-shes as a "renewal of appointment" made by the Mongol emperors. The reformation movement that led to the rise of the Yellow-hat sect did not begin until after the fall of the Mongol dynasty, consequently no member of that sect could have been appinted to office by the Mongol court.
At this point it is important to note that neither the name of the Yellow-hat sect or that of its founder, Tsong-ka-pa, appear in the official history of the Ming Dynasty. The reason for this is provided by Li Tieh-tseng himself, who wrote that "In China not only the emperor could do no wrong, but also his prestige and dignity had to be upheld at any cost. Had the fact been made known to the public that Ch'eng-tsu's repeated invitations extended to Tsong-ka-pa were declined, the Emperor's prestige and dignity would have been considered as lowered to a contemptible degree, especially at a time when his policy to show high favours toward lamas was by no means popular and had already caused resentment among the people. This explains why no mention of Tsong-k'a-pa and the Yellow Sect was made in the Ming Shih and Ming Shih lu."
And with that last statement of Wylie quoting the challenged scholar Li Tieh-tseng, do you see now, User:LaGrandefr, why it is wrong and dangerous for YOU to make judgments about the Mingshi, as if you were some qualified historian and professor with a Ph.D? Here is a gigantic error of history embodied in your supposedly faultless Mingshi. With that in mind, you better drop your present argument and pick up a book and start reading, because your argument has just now been destroyed.
Still more to come...--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
After quoting Li Tieh-tseng here, Wylie continues by wrapping up his argument here (NOTE: the bolding of text here in two spots is my own doing, not Wyli'es):
Such censorship of the official history of the Ming dynasty distorts the true picture of the period. It is clear, however, that the Ming emperors were not continuing the lama policy of the previous Mongol dynasty. Beginning with Khubilai Khan, the Mongol emperors had appointed a Sa-Skya lama as "Imperial Teacher" to serve as the viceroy of the Mongol-imposed government in Tibet. When the last Sa-Skya lama to hold that title died in 1358, the Sa-Skya regime had already been overthrown and the office of the "Imperial Teacher" fell into disuse. Although the Mongols had focused their support singularly on lamas of the Sa-Skya sect to rule Tibet, the Chinese emperors rewarded all who came to court regardless of sectarian affiliation. Since the Ming emperors were not following the Mongol practice, their lama policy must have been based on another consideration.
Relevant here is the turn of events during the reign of the Shih-tsung Emperor (1522-1566). This emperor embraced Taoism, degraded lamas, and suppressed Buddhism. The Ming Shih states from this time onwards "Tibetan lamas rarely went to China". In view of the lavish rewards and titles that were given to lamas for almost two centuries, the fact that they stopped going to China in the 16th century suggests a dramatic change in Ming policy towards the lamas. It is mere coincidence that this change was synchronic with the return of the Mongols to the Kokonor region?
Even though the Mongols were overthrown in China, they continued to be a force in Inner Asia. Early in the 16th century they began again to infiltrate the Kokonor region, and in the reign of the Shih-tsung Emperor, Mongols under the leadership of Altan Khan began to harass the Chinese frontier. Altan Khan finally made peace with the Ming court in 1571, but that did not stop him from becoming involved in Tibetan affairs. He invited the third hierarch of the Yellow-hat Sect to Mongolia and in 1578 he gave that lama the Mongolian title of Dalai ("Ocean"). Following the example of his ancestor Khubilai Khan, Altan Khan entered into the "lama-patron" relationship with this Dalai Lama.
Although I'm done with Wylie's source, I'm not done here by far, more to come.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
In the order of appearance, I ask that Wikipedia Users please state their thoughts and opinions in one of the following response slots in regards to the Wylie passages above, the Tibet issue, and LaGrandefr's map. Make sure that you have read all three passages of Wylie's book chapter that I have presented above, in order to write your own comprehensive arguments. I'll start off...
Thank you.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. According to the sentence [Ming] occupies Tubo [Tibet] in the West(西據吐番) in Mingshi, it's really that we cannot see how exact relation between Tibet and Ming China was. However, it's very clearly that Ming occupied Tibet, just like Germany occupied France during the WWII, so we can definitely claim that France was in Germany at that period. As for other proves, I've even described the two administrative divisions in Tibet settled by Ming China(17:00, 1 April 2008), Dbus-Gtsang Itinerant High Commandery(烏思藏行都指揮使司) and Mdo-khams Itinerant High Commandery (朵甘行都指揮使司), which is the same administrative division as China proper. And the system of Itinerant High Commandery (都指揮使司) was settled in 1375 in the whole Ming China.
Moreover, all the researches of Ming Dynasty are based on Mingshi, which is one of the 24 official Chinese historical works. If it's not reliable, the whole article of Ming Dynasty and all researches of this domain should be doubted. Besides, I want to point out that Qing Dynasty and Ming Dynasty are two mortal enemies, is it logical to exaggerate the territory of enemy? Sorry, I don't see the significance.--LaGrandefr (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)))
I know very well your position and I respect it at the same time. But you should realize there's also other scholarly opinion also based on some historical documents, which is different from your opinion. Still my sentence that I said I above, different scholars have different opinions. You just stick to your position and cannot accept even tarnish other scholars' opinion. As for the relation between Ming court and Tibet, some scholars think Tibet was part of Ming China (sovereignty), some scholars think Tibet was a tributary of Ming China (suzerainty), some scholars even think there were no ties between the two. Why don't we present all of the opinions? We cannot choose the opinions according to our pleasures. I'm glad that you return to yourself, (no longer suspect everything like some time ago) and present rational arguments. I've made a suggestion in my user page. If you're still not satisfied, I can change the color of Tibet into a color relatively different from China proper, in order to reach a further negotiation. How about it? Regards. --LaGrandefr (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
In response to your statements above, LaGrandefr, yes, I've already noted the different scholarly conclusions in the article in the new Tibet section (even the Wylie passage above notes different scholars' opinions, so it's not as if this hasn't dawned on me, LaGrandefr). I am all for presenting all opinions, as per WP:NPOV. In fact, I have no qualms with including your map in the article, as I've stated numerous times above. However, the contentious issue here is not so much my disagreement with SinoPress's map, but where it is placed in the article. With your edit here, you were not content with having the contested SinoPress Map in the new Tibet section; instead, you wanted it in the introductory lead section and in the infobox. Another problem with your map that will confuse readers is comparing it to the other maps in the article. I feel that readers will become confused by your map in the lead as they discover other maps later on that don't show Tibet under Ming control, asking "When did the Ming conquer Tibet?" Which, of course, never happened. They might also ask "If it was conquered, when did the Ming lose control of it?" This is the heart of the issue and the problem with your map being in the lead section. Using Wylie's passage above, the Harvard University Press map I support would be accurate, as it is most clear that Yongle had little sway or power over the Tibetans he granted titles to; in fact, anyone who happened to walk into the palace door with tribute in their hands was labeld a "King" no matter what; it could have been a lama's janitor for all Yongle knew! Lol. More importantly, some Tibetan leaders refused to acknowledge Yongle and declined his invitation to court. The Jiajing Emperor (r. 1521–1567), a staunch Daoist, discarded relations with the Tibetan lamas as if the tribute relationship had never existed; at the same time, the Mongols' relationship with Tibetan lamas was enhanced.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition to the arguments made by scholars Hoffman, Riggs, and Wylie above, here is more evidence I present from Dawa Norbu's China's Tibet Policy (2001, Richmond: Curzon, ISBN 0700704744) on page 51–52 (after discussing Phags-pa Lama and Kubilai Khan):
The highly respectful and reverential treatment extended to the Sakya Lamas is not an isolated case, though it is the first such case in Sino-Tibetan relations. Similar reverence and respect were shown by successive Chinese dynasties to successive ruling or reigning High Lamas of Tibet. Two such examples will illustrate our point: the Ming emperor invited the V Karmapa (Lama Dezhin Shagpa) to China in 1407. A noted Tibetan historian accompanying him recorded the imperial reception to the lama in the following words:
On the first day of the first month of the Fire Hog year, we arrived at the outskirts of Nanking, the capital of the Ming. Officials and noblemen on horses welcomed us and placed Karmapa on an elephant. At the city gate of Nanking, the Emperor himself received Karmapa Lama. Gifts were exchanged. Karmapa presented a gold model of a wheel and a scarf to the Emperor, and received in return a conch shell and a scarf. After the Emperor had returned to his palace, Karmapa was escorted to the guest house.
It should be noted that the Emperor came out of his palace to receive the lama, and that there was no question of kowtow by the latter to the former. We might say their relations, though not on equal footing, were characterized by mutual respect and implicit compromise politics. An even higher level of state reception was accorded to the V Dalai Lama by the Qing Emperor Shen Xhi [sic] in 1652. The Lama's state visit was an unprecedented event in the history of Qing-Tibetan relations. As William Rockhill writes, "He [the V Dalai Lama] had been treated with all the ceremony which could have been accorded to any independent sovereign, and nothing can be found in the Chinese works that he was looked upon in any other light.
Aside from Dawa Norbu's strange spelling of "Emperor Shen Xhi" (???), this is yet again a very useful passage in my argument about Tibet's status. It had quite a unique status among the vassal entities paying tribute to the Ming court, but it was not part of the Ming.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
On Page 58 of the same book:
According to Chinese communist historians, "The Ming Dynasty basically followed the system introduced by the Yuan Dynasty in exercising rule over the Tibetan areas." This was true of the Amdo and Kham areas (Inner Tibet) but not of Outer Tibet (U-Tsang and Ngari) where, as we have seen, three successive nationalistic regimes came into existence, which Communist historians prefer to ignore.
On the other hand, Tibetan nationalist historians such as Shakabpa maintain that "Tibet gained its independence from the Mongols in the time of Changchub Gyaltsen (1302-64), and China gained hers in 1368 under the leadership of Chu Yuan-chang." Shakabpa is only partially correct. Changchub Gyaltsen's Tibet included only U-Tsang and Ngari (Outer Tibet) and not Amdo and Kham whose lamaas and chieftans continued to have flourishing tribute-cum-trade relations with the Ming dynasty, as we shall see later.
This creates more problems. If the SinoPress Map is trying to include Inner Tibet (or rather, the eastern half of Tibet) as a place ruled by the Ming (through suzerainty), then why does it include Outer Tibet (the western half of Tibet) as well, which did not acknowledge the Ming? This is another reason why I think it's a bad idea to use SinoPress, which didn't do a very good job on their map if the right intent should be showing that the Ming had suzerainty over Inner Tibet, not Outer Tibet.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I cite a website with .edu ending as you like, [11], it says Ming court sent several military expeditionary forces to pacify Tibet. So you still stick to your opinion? It's not an opinion, LaGrandefr (I'm sensing you're getting a bit hostile, tone it down), it's a fact stated even by the scholars who support your claim, Wang and Nyima. Go sit on that for a while and come back with a cooler head (and preferably credible book and journal sources on your part, which you have not yet fulfilled).--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I just followed the home page of the ".edu" link you provided, [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ cc dot purdue dot edu / which says]:
If you plan to create a personal home page and place it in the World Wide Web, you should be familiar with PUCC policies on the proper use of the Purdue University computing facilities.
Nuts-and-Bolts on Personal Home Pages
You can create a personal World Wide Web home page on this machine. Your WWW documents must be stored in a subdirectory named WWW under your home directory, and this directory (~/WWW) must be world-executable and world-readable. Note: your home directory "~" must be world-executable.
This is clearly not a scholarly published article; it's a student's personal web page, not a peer-reviewed or acknowledged source. You're really clutching at straws here, LaGrandefr.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I strongly demand the intervention of admins in this discussion!
- To some guys above: At the beginning, you suspected I made a map myself, and I cited the original map in no time. Later you accused it's pro-communist(PRC), I cited dozens of websites of different origins (no blog, Internet forum, ect.) to prove it. After you only wanted the websites with .edu ending, I cited this kind of website immediately. And you changed to want a book, I cited Historical Atlas of China, SinoMap Press, ISBN 7503103841, but you rejected it once again. Even when I cited a officially compiled historical works (there're only 24 in the whole history of China), you can still deny it. User:PericlesofAthens suspected me to be a WP:SOCKPUPPET, contrarily, I doubt you, how can it exist a gang of persons that have a opinion and act so unified? I don't know what I can do right now. OK, I'll wait, just wait the response of admins.
- To User:PericlesofAthens: I cited [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ cc dot purdue dot edu /~wtv/tibet/map dot html ] and just want to satisfy your anxiety of websites with .edu ending. The website is sponsored by Tibet Study Association (formerly America-Tibet Association) and I chanced to find it. You want to finally clarify the relation between Tibet and Ming court, I still cited Mingshi, Dbus-Gtsang Itinerant High Commandery (烏思藏行都指揮使司) and Mdo-khams Itinerant High Commandery (朵甘行都指揮使司) in eastern Tibet, E-Li-Si Army-Civilian Marshal Office (俄力思軍民元帥府) in western Tibet were settled by Ming court. There're many more administrative divisions settled by Ming court at that epoch. You can don't accept all of these, but please allow others' opinion. Briefly, both of us realize the existence of different opinions. Why don't we present all of them? You still didn't respond my proposal of negotiation. Please take in consideration. Thanks.--LaGrandefr (talk) 14:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Pericles here. Well, LaGrandefr, I would love to negotiate with you, but you now seem to be contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said:
Sorry, I made this map on the basis of the original map made by Sinomap Press, ISBN:7503103841. I won't and can't change it according to my personal willing. Thanks.
I can't disagree with that, but now you are saying this:
You think readers will be confused by ming_1443.png, but I've already negotiated to make a relatively different color over Tibet in Ming China, in noting there's a debate in the issue of Tibet and more details will be shown in the section of Tibet that you opened. Thus, ming_1443.png can include the opinions of TWO sides, but your map completely dismisses one side's opinion.
So tell me, LaGrandefr, this new map you are speaking of with a different color for Tibet and China proper, are you deriving this from a scholarly-sourced map that you have yet to present here with a link? If you were to alter the SinoPress Map to differentiate Tibet and China proper with colors, would that not be a faithful copy of the SinoPress Map, and therefore become your own map that you custom made without a proper source? I hope you see how this contradicts what you stated earlier. If I am understanding you correclty, you are now saying you are abandoning the SinoPress map for another source with a different map that I have not yet seen?--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
That personal web page of the Purdue University student you used states:
Ming court sent several military expeditionary forces to pacify Tibet.
But is this true? In which year did the Ming send an army and in which years were they garrisoned in Tibet? Which Ming military officer commanded the troops that conquered Tibet? How long was the campaign and conquest of Tibet? Is this information in the Mingshi or another source, perhaps? I ask this because the two scholars I cited in the Ming Dynasty article who are in favor of LaGrandefr's argument that Tibet was part of China, Wang Jiawei and Nyima Gyaincain, on page 38 of their The Historical Status of China's Tibet (中国西藏历史地位英, 1997, China Intercontinental Press, ISBN 7801133048), state this:
The Ming Dynasty, which toppled the Yuan Dynasty and took control of China, was not as powerful in national military might as the Yuan had been. Although the Ming Dynasty court was harsh enough to punish law-breaking Tibetan officials, it refrained from sending troops to subdue Tibet or from garrisoning troops in Tibet. However, exploiting the fact that the local forces of Tibet could survive and fare well only with the support of the emperor, the Ming Dynasty court granted official posts and titles of honor to local Tibetan leaders, who vied to pay tribute to the Ming Dynasty court, and granted them handsome rewards. The Ming Dynasty was very successful in expanding influence in the Tibetan areas and in strengthening ties with local forces through these measures.
So there you have it, Wang and Nyima state that the Ming never sent troops to Tibet, and they are the ones supporting your argument! In addition, Dawa Norbu, who I cited above, states that the Mongols to the north were the main threat to the Ming, as the Ming had no worries of military problems rising on the western borders with Tibet so long as a cordial tribute relationship was effective. Strangely enough, Wang and Nyima never elaborate on how the Ming "[punished] law-breaking Tibetan officials," or even why they believe the local forces in Tibet were so heavily indebted to the Ming emperor's support for their very survival; they make a pretty weak point by not backing it up with facts to follow, unlike the other scholars Norbu, Wylie, Hoffman, Riggs, etc. I have shown here.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, you state this:
You want to finally clarify the relation between Tibet and Ming court, I still cited Mingshi, Dbus-Gtsang Itinerant High Commandery (烏思藏行都指揮使司) and Mdo-khams Itinerant High Commandery (朵甘行都指揮使司) in eastern Tibet, E-Li-Si Army-Civilian Marshal Office (俄力思軍民元帥府) in western Tibet were settled by Ming court.
LaGrandefr, we've been over this already, as proven by scholar Turrell V. Wylie, you cannot trust the Mingshi as an accurate source when it comes to Tibet. Furthermore, you are using a primary source document that should be analyzed by historians; you are not a historian, so what you are doing amounts to original research, which is not allowed. I'm sorry, but any more direct references to the Mingshi will be ignored as invalid material not checked by modern credible scholars.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems that you're tending to accept the negotiation. Thank you for the concern that I MAYBE risk of going back to my words. Your concern is superfluous since I don't want modify Ming_1443.png, what I suggested is that we make a combination of 2 maps in order to present 2 sides' opinions. This is a common method in Wikipedia to debated issues. (I'm a new comer of English wiki, not a new user.)
- About the issue of Tibet, it's debated among the scholars, so why are you so willing to draw a one-sided self-approbation decision? Could you PLEASE don't give your personal thoughts in Wikipedia? The source that you cited Historical Status of China's Tibet, it says Ming refrained from … the authors used refrained, not prohibited. During the whole dynasty, Ming didn't carry out large military actions in Tibet, but it did some times. 1370, General DENG Yu was sent by the court to conquer the West … Mdo-khams and Dbus-Gtsang showed submission to Ming court. (洪武三年…大將軍出定西…朵甘、烏斯藏諸部悉歸附) Do you really find a seesaw battle very interesting, as each side shows their sources endlessly? The issue of Tibet during Ming China is DABATED, not concluded, both of us cannot (neither qualified not authorized) to decide whether Tibet was in Ming China or not, so I advice you not to conclude so easily and so carelessly.
- Besides, according to Mingshi-Military, a detailed and complete administration system was even recorded, two Itinerant High Commandery 都指揮使司, one Itinerant Commandery 指揮使司, three Pacification Commissioner's Office 宣尉使司, six Expedition Commissioner's Office 招討司, four Wanhu offices 萬戶府 (myriarchies each in command of 10,000 households), seventeen Qianhu offices 千戶所 (chiliarchies each in command of 1,000 households). I will show all the details in the new section about Tibet. (In fact, to be a featured article, Ming Dynasty should introduce a detailed administration division of the whole country, I'm glad to offer all sources that I own.) If you can still deny all of these, I'll have no alternative but wait the admins' response, since I've shown my greatest goodwill to negotiate. Regards.--LaGrandefr (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
For goodness sake, why are you now always putting your responses in quotation form? This page would be very hard to read for any newcomer in this debate, as I've already quoted you above using that method. Anyway, you state this:
It seems that you're tending to accept the negotiation. Thank you for the concern that I MAYBE risk of going back to my words. Your concern is superfluous since I don't want modify Ming_1443.png, what I suggested is that we make a combination of 2 maps in order to present 2 sides' opinions. This is a common method in Wikipedia to debated issues. (I'm a new comer of English wiki, not a new user.)
No, you haven't suggested that at all up until this point; before, as seen on your user page, you did not include two maps, but you do have a completely new map because you altered the colors of Tibet and China Proper (and then I asked which scholarly-source you based this new altered map from). As I made clear earlier, I'm not against having a map that shows different colors for Tibet and China Proper, but the boundaries of it has to be based off of a map from a scholarly source, not just something out of thin air that we contrived (that would be original research).
So let me get this straight: you are suggesting that the lead infobox contain both the Harvard University Press map and the SinoMap Press map, side-by-side, without one or the other being altered? If so, I wouldn't object to the idea, if you can have it done.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
1370, General DENG Yu
Finally! A name and a year...but those areas only reportedly "submitted" on his western campaign; was there an actual battle we're missing here, though? There certainly wasn't an occupation.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you really find a seesaw battle very interesting, as each side shows their sources endlessly?
Well, you seem pretty gung-ho in plugging your map into the article without bringing scholarly sources to the table; in fact, I'm the only one who's done that so far. I'm the one who brought Wang and Nyima to the fore; I could have just chosen to ignore the opposing side, but since you've sparked an interest in the issue, I found it necessary to include opposing views to understand the full argument. If this is a seesaw game, I'm sitting on one end by myself without any partner of equal weight.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The issue of Tibet during Ming China is DABATED, not concluded, both of us cannot (neither qualified not authorized) to decide whether Tibet was in Ming China or not, so I advice you not to conclude so easily and so carelessly.
You advise me, huh? That's ironic, since I've repeatedly had to tell you the same thing on this issue. It's good to see someone's taking my advice.--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I will show all the details in the new section about Tibet. (In fact, to be a featured article, Ming Dynasty should introduce a detailed administration division of the whole country, I'm glad to offer all sources that I own.)
Well, well, so far I was unaware that you owned any scholarly sources, since you've been so careful to avoid showing them here. As to expanding the Tibet section in this article, no, that will not do. This article has already ballooned in size to a near unacceptable level since I've expanded it beginning in December 2007; there were also complaints in the FAC discussion about how large the overall "History" section was becoming in comparison to the following sections. If you want to include all of this new textual information from "sources that I own", I would suggest creating a separate main article that can be linked in the Tibet sub-section of this article. "Tibet during the Ming Dynasty", perhaps?--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I started quoting you in that quotation format, but that's different from crafting all my responses in quotation format. As for the map, since you acknowledged in the image description that it's based off of both maps, SinoPress and Harvard University Press, I suppose that it is acceptable. As for additional textual information on Tibet during the Ming, that can go in a new separate article linked here as a sister article to this article and a main article for the Tibet section, as the latter in this article is already a bit long as it stands. I think now we can end this long 'seesaw' tirade, as you decribe it. Let's finally have this edit lock removed so that the article can get back on track, shall we?--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
|}
I added a sentence about Wylie's book chapter to wrap up the argument of the side in favor of the view that Tibet was more autonomous than Wang and Nyima assert. Any more info can be placed in a new article, if someone wishes to create one.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Quick question about the new map that I somehow didn't notice before: why is Annam shown as part of Ming China in 1443? The Ming Dynasty was pushed out of Vietnam in 1428, and the Ming court recognized the new Lê Dynasty as an independent state in 1431; this has been mentioned in the Ming Dynasty article for quite a while now. I hate to say it, but this creates an entirely new problem with your map, no? If you have the time, please revise the map. I'll wait a week for you to revise it, but after that time I think I will replace it. Thank you.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Sinomap is not a neutral academic source, it's worthless. Take a look in The Cambridge History of China Vol. 7 - The Ming Dynasty 1368–1644 Part 1. Result: north and centre of Manchuria was never subject to Ming China! --91.64.142.25 (talk) 11:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Now that you mention it, from page 14 of the Cambridge History book (the bolding of text is my own doing for emphasis):
In order to oversee the Jurchen guards and subdue additional tribes, the Ming in 1409 established a Nurgan Regional Military Commission...near the mouth of the Amur River. Supplying provisions to this northern Ming outpost proved expensive, and the Nurgan Regional Military Commission was abandoned in 1435. The Ming retreat meant the loss of contact with many of the more northerly tribes. Though the existence of Jurchen guards consisted of nothing more than Ming diplomatic and commercial recognition, Jurchen chiefs bore military titles and were viewed as Ming local officials. Since the Ming neither occupied Jurchen territory nor made efforts to tax its population, the Jurchen tribes acquiesced in the fiction of Ming authority. They employed the Ming calendar rather than the traditional twelve-animal cycle; they went by their guard names and their Ming official titles; and they presented tribute and submitted to the required ritual of the Ming court.
Once again, as with Tibet, the Ming did not bother to garrison troops in north and central Manchuria, did not bother to uphold formal taxation like they would in any normal province of the empire, and relied on alliances by granting titles to local rulers who simply paid tribute to the Ming court and kept the Mongols in check.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts, but in your newly revised map, Image:MingEmpire.png, Annam is no longer colored the same as directly-ruled territories, but you have it under the same color as Tibet and Manchuria. What are you getting at here? If you were simply coloring all of the Ming's tributaries as light blue, then why not color Korea light blue as well? After all, it was a tributary to the Ming. Like the Joseon Dynasty of Korea, the Le Dynasty of Vietnam is not contested, the latter was fully independent after 1431, and your map is supposed to represent 1443. I can't believe you still don't get this. Please revise your map again, this time with Vietnam as a blank color, as it is not contested by scholars as being ruled by the Ming, but a well-known fact that it was independent (although paying tribute like Korea, Malacca, Borneo, etc.)--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Due to established users editwarring, mostly over the map again, I've protected the article. Please try to reach a consensus this time. I recommend actively reaching out to prior editors of the article, relevant wiki-projects, and any others likely to be able to offer an informed opinion. GRBerry 15:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
What the hell are you guys doing now? Why does the page have to be protected again? And LaGrandefr, if you're going to edit an English Wikipedia, try learning English grammar first. Your nefarious passage on Tibet and the Mingshi that you slopped together in a disheveled fashion without regarding the narrative flow of the sub-section displays an atrocious understanding of English grammar and will be deleted as soon as I can edit the article. With total disregard for the negotiation we had above, you added a gigantic block of new text to a section that we agreed needs its own split article if there was to be further elaboration on the subject of Tibet. Your unthoughtful and poorly-decided placement of the Tibet sub-section in the main government section is unwelcome, as you did not approach any of the editors here to ask their opinion about the organization of the article and where the Tibet sub-section is relevant. Also, how many times on Talk:Ming Dynasty have I been over this issue of the Mingshi with you? You are not qualified to write anything about the Mingshi in regards to Tibet. Period. End of story. No more discussion. If you wish to contribute something, you will do so with secondary scholarly literature. I can't believe that after all this time, after all this debate, you still haven't learned how to obey that fundamental rule about Wikipedia: No Original Research by using primary sources.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
In fact, I have a better idea! The Mingshi information you have placed in the article (which I should note you haven't even cited accordingly) can easily be countered by Turrell V. Wylie on why the Mingshi is not a source to be trusted in regards to Tibet. In a way, LaGrandefr, you sort of shot yourself in the foot by adding that information which is simply going to be debunked in the article. Actually, since we agreed above that any new material added should go in a separate article (as this main article is already too large), I will provide Wylie's interpretation of the Mingshi in a separate article I will create called Sino-Tibetan relations during the Ming Dynasty, which will, of course, have your Mingshi info intact (I do ask that you properly cite your sources for goodness sake, at least try to act professional).--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It's interesting to note that LaGrandefr is the only editor who wants to use that sinomap dot com map or whatever it is. On the other hand, editors who reverted it back to the original Harvard map include: Balthazarduju, Bertport, Angelo De La Paz, PericlesofAthens, Neo-Jay and myself. Doesn't it tell you something?
For the love of Wikipedia and the English language, please do not add any unsourced, horribly written passage to the article. 1) Mingshi has over a hundred volumes. So saying "according to Mingshi" is not enough; you need inline citations. 2) the passage is simply pathetic, to put it lightly. What does "the Chinese historical official works" mean anyway? And the flow and GRAMMAR! 3) Mingshi is not a reliable source regarding Tibet as argued by PericlesofAthens. So citing Mingshi violates Wikipedia's Reliable Sources guideline.
So my question is, Shall we put a stop to this? Josuechan (talk) 23:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
About your new sub-section "Maps and the pathetic passage", those are my exact sentiments, Josuechan. On another note, I've recently created an article on this very topic, calling it Sino-Tibetan relations during the Ming Dynasty.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Although I still detest LaGrandefr's map, he does have a point, in that some scholars still cling to the ridiculous point of view that Tibet was part of the Ming Dynasty. Because of this, his map of the combination of SinoPress and Harvard University maps is warranted, and even as despicable as the former is, it is still a legitimate scholarly viewpoint in the People's Republic of China (I haven't read or heard of any scholars outside of the PRC who support it though). All of this hype really doesn't matter though, because this new article I've created exposes all the smelly BS that LaGrandefr is propagating here. If people want to know the truth about Ming-Tibetan relations, they can simply visit the link to this new article which I will place in this main article's Tibet sub-section once the edit ban is lifted.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Alright, since you don't speak English I'm not going to make fun of you for these remarks here (although I am laughing right now). Tell me, sweetie pie, where exactly in our discussion above did you properly cite the Mingshi? You did not. You made statements about the Mingshi, but you never gave us proper citations here, or in the Ming article. So to call me a liar for that is a bit slanderous, LaGrandefr, unless you have some evidence (which you don't). Oh, and your recent addition of citations as of this morning to the Tibet during the Ming Dynasty article doesn't count in your argument that I am a "liar", because you just added them today. Also, your refusal to fix Annam spawns a new problem with your map, which I have discussed with you again, and again, and again, etc. etc. I can't believe you still don't understand the difference between Yongle's reign era (1402–1424) when the Ming Dynasty ruled Vietnam, and the year 1443 which your map is supposed to represent, which is 12 years after the Ming court recognized Vietnam as a fully independent state with its own emperor. Why would you want to include a map in an article that doesn't have a definite year for it? That's some lazy-headed slipshod work right there. You're pretty much conceding at this point that your map is inaccurate, but you don't really care, do you! It is grounds for me to keep it out of this article until you revise it. So why don't you fix it for me and come back here, sugar bumps, and then I'll wholeheartedly accept a balanced, non-bias map that has NPOV and accurately portrays the year 1443 as SinoMap Press claims it does. Ok, sweetie-pie?--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of lying I posted this comment recently on Talk:Sino-Tibetan relations during the Ming Dynasty
That is exactly what I'm worried about: someone just makes up some claims about Mingshi without any proper citations (publisher, edition, vol, page number) and then pretends the burden lies on the readers to dig through the 300+ volumes to find something that might very well not be there. And LaGrandefr, please refrain yourself from making accusations when you have basically nothing to back up. You're just making fun of yourself and it's not a pretty sight. Josuechan (talk) 10:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Now I don't even know what you're babbling about, LaGrandefr. One, what exactly is it that Josuechan deleted? And two, Josuechan said this on April 1 at 16:36 -->
Certainly Mingshi is much more reliable than Sinomap. However, the map LaGrandefr proposed here is not from Mingshi, but Sinomap. So it's an "official" map in the sense that it's approved by the PRC government. Worse, according to the quoted sentence (計明初封略,東起朝鮮,西據吐番,南包安南,北距大磧用), Vietnam should also be part of Ming, but how come the map didn't include it? So is LaGrandefr opposing his own map? Interesting. In fact, Vietnam has a better claim to be part of Ming because 1) an administrative unit (布政使司) was set up there; 2) Ming army actually occupied the region till mid-Ming. (see Mingshi vol. 40 志第十六 地理一). But these didn't happen to Tibet.
User:Josuechan cited that Mingshi volume in regards to Vietnam, not Tibet. What, you don't know the difference between the two? I'm surprised that you expect me to remember that he cited something about Vietnam, a completely different issue. You never provided any citations for your statements about the Mingshi until you added them to the Tibet during the Ming Dynasty article on the morning of April 21st. That is a fact. So, LaGrandefr, before you delve into another needless rant on the talk page, let's discuss your map a bit further.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:CITE, a Chinese translation of Ebrey's Cambridge History of China should not be used as a reference in English Wikipedia, since the English version is available. "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal caliber." (Let alone, inferior caliber.) Bertport (talk) 20:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
sw:Ming (nasaba)
I couldn't help but notice that the article is under dispute yet again. Does this article require mediation again? If so, well, I suppose I should be the one to do it. Steve Crossin (talk) (anon talk) 01:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
In short, crap image with a dubious licence, so it's been deleted. If you re-upload or want it undeleted, I want evidence it's actually copyright expired material, thanks. Nick (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I just felt the "Hah! Well, User:Steve Crossin, it appears that there is little for you to mediate now...." bit was directed at me. Oh well. It's all good and well :). I'll keep an eye on the page for a few days, just in case it flares up again. Cheers. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
In 3 different browsers (Internet Explorer, Firefox and Google Chrome) the symbols are incorrectly displayed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.45.107.22 (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Editors of Ming should begin looking for better (and true) copies of Ming emperor's images, for example: [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ baidubar1234 dot blogspot dot com/ a much better picture], because during Manchu's 300 years reign, Manchu barbarians had tried their best to demonize the Ming.Arilang1234 (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
by:Willard J. Peterson, John K. Fairbank, Denis Twitchett Page 290.
“ | BY one estimate, the literary inquisition's two big book-collecting agencies in Kiangsu supplied at least 63,000 of the 151,723 volumes(Chinese:pu) the inquisition destroyed. Kwangtung, however, apparently supplied very few(289), fewer even than Yunnan or Szechwan or Kwangsi.
A broad mixture of new and old motives drove the government's book burners of the 1770s and 1780s. Books were condemned if they were hostile or disrespectful to Ching rmperors after 1644. Books were condemned if they insulted previous non-Chinese dynasties that might be considered related to the Ching. Books were condemned if they presented inflammaatory chronicles of the Ching conquest of China. They were condemned if they contained geographical information related to the frontiers or the coast which might assist rebels. As an afterthought(beginning at the end of 1780) the scripts of popular plays could also be censored or destroyed for vulgar language as well as anti-Manchu references. Books could be condemned for being nothing more than the products of prominent opponents of the dynasty, such as Lu Liu-liang(1629-1683). And, reflecting a very old motive in Chinese history for book censorship or suppression, they could be condemned if they indecently questioned established interpretations of the Confucian classic. P290. The inquisition, like political purges in modern China, facilitated the expression of local ambitions and rivalries that had little to do with the ruler's own political interests....The inquisition generated interclass, as well as intraclass, warfare; commoners could lay charges against scholars. Nothing demonstrated the Chien-lung emperor's political doubleness or calculated hybridity more than his parasitic attempt to develop a historically denatured version of the great Ming martyrs' creed of loyalty to the throne, from which the Ming martyrs of no use to him, and the Ming house itself, had been subtracted. His literary inquisition could no more stamp out Ming loyalism than his two empirewide efforts to repress Christian communities, in 1746 and 1784, could stamp out Christianity. Chien-lung's failure to propose any new theories of political obligation, instead of recycling the old, meant that the memories of the Ming dynasty he had most to repress could reemerge a century later, endowed with the added value his inquisition had given them. P293. |
” |
Well, maybe the guy was ugly! And I don't think he actually looks that bad. Take a look at Qing emperor Daoguang: I think Xuande looks handsome in comparison!--Madalibi (talk) 05:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hah! This portrait of Hongwu (Ming Taizu) is featured in Patricia Ebrey's Cambridge History of China (1999), where she says on page 191, QUOTE:
Emperor Taizu's detractors described him as ugly and pockmarked, with a protruding lower jaw. Although some of the portraits preserved in the palace collection show him to have been as handsome as any other emperor, several survive that match the most negative descriptions.
Of course, long before the Ming Dynasty, negative physical characteristics were attributed to rulers who were hated by others or those who failed to succeed and were given bad comments in posterity. For example, while Liu Bang was described as contemporaries as having auspicious looks which made him destined to be the ruler of China, Wang Mang was later slandered by Ban Gu as having ugly features which could be read as inauspicious signs revealing that he was to fail on the throne and never truly gain Heaven's mandate.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
About Yongle's "dark" face, look at this portrait I uploaded and scanned from Michael Sullivan's The Arts of China: Fourth Edition (1999):
It is the same "complexion" found in this article's portrait you are criticizing:
The picture you provided from [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot chinaheritagenewsletter dot org /002/_pix/zhenghe2.jpg ChinaHeritageNewsletter dot org ] in itself looks blurry and tampered with. You are aware that Chinese painters often painted people with dark brown or red complexions not to reflect reality, but to reflect vitality and other noble attributes? For example, this can be seen in many painted depictions of the Three Kingdoms general and god of war, Guan Yu.
Compared to the skin color of Liu Bei in this 18th century painting, Zhang Fei looks more like an average Mexican in skin tone, kind of like Cheech Marin! Lol.
This diminishes the main point of your criticism substantially.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
As I was reading Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598), I came across this section about a secret peace talk between Ming and Japan.Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598)#Negotiations and truce between China and Japan (1594–1596), I am beginning to wonder what is the ratio of truth vs falsehood in that article as a hole. As that war was an engagement of Ming, Japan and Korea military forces, I think it is appropriate to start a discussion on this talk page, may be editors of Ming are able to point out those errors at that article? Arilang talk 20:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I think this phrase is worth further expanding on Ming, which is very much lacking on Ming-Korea-Japan relationship; moreover, from the Confucius teachings prospective, all three countries did(and still do) advocate the teaching of Confucius. Arilang talk 21:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Wanli Emperor#Middle Reign (1582-1600) has a bit of describition, not into very detail Imjin War. I probably leave the writing to other editors, since there are better English writer than me. Arilang talk 08:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I found this graph on Commons :
I think this graph indicates clearly Ming was indeed under the grip of the "Little ice age", which might be part of the reasons why there were so many famines and peasants uprisings?
I propose adding this graph onto the Ming article. Any suggestions? Arilang talk 01:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I propose rotating this beautiful image with that of the 'giraffe'ipg.
Arilang talk 07:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Zheng Zhilong I think this name is worth mentioning in Ming article.Quote:Zheng Zhilong (traditional Chinese: 鄭芝龍; pinyin: Zhèng Zhīlóng; Wade-Giles: Cheng Chih-lung; 1604 – 1661) also known as Nicholas Iquan Gaspard was a 17th century Chinese merchant, pirate and admiral for the Ming Empire. He was the father of Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga), also a military leader. His company was known as Iquan's Party. Arilang talk 02:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
One way to integrate Arilang's proposed additions on Zheng Zhilong and Koxinga would be to build something better on the "Southern Ming" dynasty. The current link on Southern Ming redirects to the main page on the Ming Dynasty, and a new Wiki called Southern Ming Dynasty is only one-sentence long. I think the Southern Ming deserves more substantial treatment! For starters, a lot of info can be found in Lynn Struve's book The Southern Ming; see also the relevant sections of Frederic Wakeman's The Great Enterprise. Good news: there is already a lot on the Southern Ming in the Wiki under the names of individual Ming princes who tried to build up resistance against the Qing:
Someone (Arilang?) could try to integrate the content of these articles (and those on Koxinga and Zheng Zhilong) into a larger wiki on the southern Ming. Once this new page is clean and free of controversies, I propose adding a section on the Southern Ming to the page called History of the Ming Dynasty and to add one or two paragraphs on the Southern Ming at the end of the history section of the Ming Dynasty page. What do you all think? --Madalibi (talk) 02:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
One way of making sure the new paragraph(s) is the best it can would be to base it on a longer narrative that doesn't exist yet but will eventually be found in the page on the Southern Ming Dynasty. In any case, since Ming Dynasty is a featured article, we should discuss any substantial new addition here in the talk page. Cheers! --Madalibi (talk) 05:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
No problem! Present the results here and we can all work on it together. --Madalibi (talk) 07:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Most of Lynn Struve's article on the "Southern Ming" in the first Ming volume (1988) of the Cambridge History of China is available here. Too bad the last two or three pages are missing. --Madalibi (talk) 07:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Another way would be to cut-and-paste relevant paragraphs from the four wikis on Southern-Ming princes and to weave them into an article. That would take care of the "English" problem! You could then borrow missing details from the Chinese wiki.--Madalibi (talk) 08:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
@user PericlesofAthens, my apology to you if my remarks sound sacarstic, I am not, because I had always assumed that you are oversea Chinese like me, until 2 minutes ago I went to look at your user page and very surprised to find out you are an American. I also assumed that user Malilibi is oversea Chinese, because he can read and write Mandarin. But then I might be wrong. Again please accept my appology for 'sounding' like sacarstic, which I am not. Arilang talk 10:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
That say, another must see is [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www dot youku dot com /playlist show/id 1510930 dot html ] TV dramas Zhū Yuanzhang, is quite good.
My advice on your learning of mandarin(1) Forget pinyin, learn the hard way by memorize each character. (2) Learn the old text, not the simplify text. (3) Learn zh:成語, phrases with only four characters. Since you are doing Han article, 成語:zh:约法三章 is a must learn. Arilang talk 11:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
One more thing on CCTV, 98% of their TV dramas are propaganda rubbish, with a few exceptions Towards the Republic is 'extremely good'. If you can only afford limited time, I would suggest you watch Towards the Republic first. Among all the TV dramas dished out by CCTV, TR is top, a 'must must see'(not a typo, but Chinglish)
Due to the grand size of his treasure fleets and conquests, the Yongle Emperor was the best emperor in Chinese history, followed only by Emperor Wu of Han.
Due to the grand size of his treasure fleets and conquests, the Yongle Emperor gained international prestige by gathering tribute from many foreign countries.
<ref>Spence (1998), 116.</ref>
I improved the section on the Hongguang reign on the Southern Ming Dynasty page. Maybe it's a bit too detailed, but I think it looks pretty good! --Madalibi (talk) 03:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
[some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] killthelink- dot -wapedia dot mobi/en/Ming Dynasty?t=3 - The link has been slightly edited to disable link to malware, but that sire is a complete copy of this Wiki's page. 72.64.103.65 (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry guys, looks like I still have this copy right problems, I will remove the images until problems solved. Arilang talk 06:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC) More images:
PericlesofAthens, I will make double sure all the images are under Creative Commons license. If you need any images for Han Dynasty, I will search for them. Arilang talk 01:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry again. Arilang talk 07:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
I notice that this page discusses the Ming population without mentioning the latest estimates by Martin Heijdra in the second Ming volume of the Cambridge History of China (1998). Heijdra's article is titled "The socio-economic development of rural China during the Ming." On p. 438, Heijdra gives the following "low," "middle," and "high" estimates for 1500, 1600, and 1650:
He estimates that the actual population figures must have been between the middle and the high hypotheses (the claim straddles pp. 438 and 439). His figures for 1650 are controversial because he seems to have underestimated the effect of wars, famines, and epidemics on the population (as pointed out in [some links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ web dot whittier dot edu /people/webpages/personalwebpages/rmarks/PDF/Env dot _panel_remarks dot pdf] this paper, which wrongly calls Heijdra's hypothesis the "Mote revision"), but his other figures seem cogent. For one thing, they're based on very conservative growth rates for the entire period. In any case, since Heijdra's article is a serious scholarly source that is now taken very seriously in the field, I think we should integrate his figures into the wiki: in the lead paragraph (next to note 2), and of course in the Population section. Any thoughts? --Madalibi (talk) 07:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I can do what you suggest after you confirm that what Ebrey and Brook call "the late Ming" means roughly 1600. Also, which Heijdra figure should I use? "Middle"? "High"? "In-between" with an explanation? Let's just reach some kind of consensus on this before I make the changes. Happy Thanksgiving! --Madalibi (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Ebrey is rather vague about the date or time frame in reference to the population being as large as 200 million in the later part of the dynasty, but Brook explicitly says around the year 1600 the population was as large as 175 million (p. 162):
The standard estimate suggests that China was approaching 150 million by 1600, though working from a modestly higher base figure suggests that it may have approached 175 million.
As for middle and high, you could simply state the middle and high figures and note Heijdra's inclination towards a pop size in between those two figures.--Pericles of AthensTalk 08:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that there are multiple blank pages when printing? There are whole blank pages with a header and footer, but missing all content. It happens in this article, and others. It's easily checked by going to print preview and paging through. This happens to me on multiple Windows computers using Internet Explorer. However, Firefox manages to show all of the content, but there are large white spaces between some headers and the text.
75.144.38.1 (talk) 12:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Happy New Year!
I certainly wouldn't want to belittle the status of the University of Calgary—but is that institution really so authoritative in this field that it deserves to be mentioned in the 2nd para of the lead? Couldn't the citation be given without mentioning the U of C in the text? Eg:
--NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Since History of the Ming Dynasty is formed, shouldn't the History section be written in summary style? --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
What happened to all these Ming military officials and aristocrats/royals when Ming surrendered to Manchu warlords(Jin)? What happened ti some of the survivals that became refugee and fled to neighboring states like Korea, Vietnam etc..?--Korsentry 07:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ming dynasty/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This article has plenty of good info, but now it needs references. --Danaman5 21:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
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Last edited at 15:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 15:24, 1 May 2016 (UTC)