This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
http://martinmatalon.com/?p=361 The composer Martin Matalon wrote a score to Metropolis in 1995; and he also made a 2011 version Safaribar (talk) 20:57, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
The 'plot' section begins with a paragraph explaining that there are different versions. It then recounts the plot. But it's not clear which version is being recounted: the reconstructed plot of the original premiere, the American rewrite, or something else. Someone familiar with the different versions should rewrite the opening paragraph to clarify this.Cop 663 (talk) 13:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The mention of other versions is helpful but I do understand what you mean about the need for clarity. I think a possible approach to change this could be to state, within the first paragraph preceding the major plot outline, which version of the film is being summarized in the plot outline. However, I haven't seen anything like that on other Wikipedia articles. So, a second solution could be to edit the plot outline so that it is definitely the original version which is being summarized, either deleting aspects where the summary deviates from the original or mentioning the changes, and stating which version they are from. WilliamBenjaminPritchard. (talk) 14:23, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Further, I think it will be useful to add a few words into the opening paragraph which will reduce the confusion over which version of the plot is being outlined in the "Plot" summary. Also, it has been mentioned that the plot section is overly long, delving into excessive detail, I intend to streamline the section, making it more precise. WilliamBenjaminPritchard. (talk) 11:44, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
How were they able to collect such a large budget? Who paid for the movie?--85.179.100.75 (talk) 10:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that it should be: The mediator between the MIND and the hands should be the heart. That's what it was in the version we are studying for school (The one with only a quarter lost)--210.56.70.230 (talk) 07:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
there was a bit under "influences" that said "Jerry Seinfeld was Fritz's main inspiration when writing the screenplay of this 1927 film." This seemed to be clearly made up, since it didn't cite a source and is also impossible since Seinfeld wasn't born yet, so I deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.67.223.207 (talk) 05:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
It seems the plot summary includes enough text from the Murnau foundation's 2002 release of the film as to constitute plagiarism. See http://www.kino.com/metropolis/ ("Production" --> "Synopsis" on the Flash version of the site) for a comparison. A more complete attribution than what exists now ("The plot description given here corresponds to the 2002 version released by the F. W. Murnau Foundation, the most complete cut that is currently available to the public.") would seem appropriate and would avert more assertive charges of intellectual theft. Vheijde (talk) 20:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
I note that a number of the stills used in this article are listed as copyright and used as fair use. Is this right? As the film is in the public domain, I would have thought any stills from it would likewise be public domain. Does the restoration work in recent DVD releases somehow render stills from them copyright? VoluntarySlave (talk) 13:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
The current plot outline does not represent the film at all it is mostly inspired by the novel, it describes action which simply does not exist in the film (such as Hel's backstory, the name Parody, the fact that the robot is made from metal and crystal) Patrick R.W.A. R. (talk) 21:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
If you scrutinise certain scenes (such as the one in the Eternal Garden when the large doors open and Maria enters with the children) it is evident that footage used in the Moroder version is different from footage of exactly the same action in the most recent releases. (In that scene, the three birds are in different positions, and the children pointing etc. differs.) That suggests that the shortened version might not have been an original version that was butchered, but a separate version that in places used different take footage. Or might there have been more than one master to start with where each used different takes in places. Is anyone aware of information on this? 82.26.57.60 (talk) 16:10, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Within a few minutes of posting the above, I had the answer. There were three original negatives made where each shot was either duplicated with additional cameras on the set, or the scene was shot three times. Consequently, in theory, there are three versions of each individual shot. That is an important matter which really needs researching and describing properly.82.26.57.60 (talk) 16:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The more you look, the more you find. Having left the machine rooms after the accident, Freder runs down some steps to an awaiting car. In the Moroder version, as he runs down the steps, two mechanised trolleys travel along the road in the background. But in the 2002/10 version as he runs down the steps, the road is empty and the trolleys are not seen. In the same view, there is a shadow up the stairs on the other side of the road in one version, but not the other. Also, as the car pulls away, the 2002/10 version has writing on the back of that car which is not seen in the Moroder version. Also, as the car drives off in the Moroder version, the scene scrolls (with the car) to a view of the giant city. But in the 2002/10 version, as the car pulls off, the scene remains the same and you continue to see that locality. As to two cameras - almost at the end as the crowd climb those steps, stop, and Grot walks away from them - look at the two people at the front and the person between and behind them. That person behind them is in a different orientation bewteen the Moroder version and the 2002/10 version - which very much looks like two camera angle views of the same action. I did give a reference but it has been deleted by someone else. 82.26.57.60 (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Other interesting differences in the Moroder version are that the shot of the destroyed Tower of Babel has english words above it and not the original german, also if you look carefully you will see that when Georgy looks at the piece of paper given to him by Freder at the machine the address is in english, and if you look very carefully you will see that this shot is in fact from the scene were Georgy looks at the paper in the back of the car, as you can see his legs, check it against the new 2010 reconstructed version if you don't believe me. Which proves that these parts must have been shot in english text as well as german, which other languages I don't know. From what I understand the reconstructions done prior to 2001 were conducted using what was referred to as the "London copy" to which any new material was added, to put it crudely, for the 2001 recon the original negative of the American cut has been used which was made from a different camera negative to the "London copy". Also some of Moroders subtitles are taken from the Channing Pollock inter-titles for the USA edited version, interesting as this version seems not to have surfaced in any form on VHS or DVD in America, the "London copy" was the prevalent version avaliable until the 2001 German recon.81.111.127.132 (talk) 03:44, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, the Moroder version of the film will be on an offical DVD releases worldwide soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.208.204.72 (talk) 14:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
When will the 2010 restoration be released on DVD? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizzybody (talk • contribs) 11:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
But, where is the Moroder version on DVD and Blu-ray? It will be soon on DVD and Blu-ray, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.220.244.232 (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
This link: 2010 Kino International Blu-ray Disc edition may be of interest. It include discussion of the quality of various DVD releases of Metrolpolis. Details of the restorations are also given. - 220 of Borg 06:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
this film should have a section about its lasting influence. i'd do it but i won't have the time for a while.Capt Jim (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC) If someone does a do an influence section, make sure to include Janelle Monae's 2008 album entitled "Metropolis" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nannakins (talk • contribs) 07:46, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I very much agree that there should be an influence, legacy, references in popular culture section for this masterpiece of a movie. Alas I do not have the time to undertake this project. But for anyone who might pick this up, I want to add that the movie is referenced in the Rammstein song "Stripped".Averagejoedev (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I've checked but haven't found any connection between this Obsession (song) by Animotion and the 1984 Metropolis (film), but they seem to use the same music in places, and was wondering if Giorgio Moroder the composer helped to record this song. This is Giorgio Moroder's instrumental version [2] compared to the version by Animotion [3] both links are links to YouTube videos. To me they seem too similar to be a coincidence, but I haven't found any connection between the two other then then this song and it's music. (Floppydog66 (talk) 08:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC))
Hi, would it be beneficial to the article to add another sub-section, beaneath "Music" and "original score" that is exlcusively dedicated to Moroders 1984 soundtrack for Metropolis? I know his version is referred to in the "other soundtracks" sub-section, but it is brief and only mentions a few of the artists involved with this version. A larger section may be beneficial to this page and could include a greater range of the of the artists involved and the songs which are on that version of the film. WilliamBenjaminPritchard. (talk) 13:45, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
I've added a line about Queen's Radio Ga Ga music video which has some scenes of the movie on "Adaptation" section. But I'm not sure if it should be there. Any Opinion? User:do.you.sina —Preceding undated comment added 07:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC).
The author of this site Michael Organ actually gets a mention in the text. http://www.uow.edu.au/~morgan/metroa.htm. Lots of material and sources. Be advised I got a few "404 - Page Not Found" errors while perusing this site, even when going to pages I had already visited and were definitely good links. - 220 of Borg 07:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
"The film score of the original release of Metropolis was composed by Gottfried Huppertz and it was meant to be performed by large orchestras to accompany the film during production. "
To accompany the film during production ?? Does this mean, while recording the sound-track ? Or does it mean, with a live orchestra during exhibiting the film in a cinema [ during the silent film era ] ? If the latter meaning is intended, then the sentence should be altered to refer to the orchestra accompanying the film during presentation, or exhibition. Not production.Eregli bob (talk) 04:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I expanded and updated the "Reception" section, added citations, provided a topical analogy to current events. Xela Zeugirdor (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
If you make the comparison to The_Tower_of_Babel_(Brueghel), then shouldn’t we be using an image like this one (screen shot of 53:10 into the 2010 restoration) instead of the image currently shown in comparison? --X883 (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
The image you mentioned was the real tower of Babel in the film.. but what the article referes to is the building that is the new tower of Babel in the film. Have you watched the movie?!
Mando Salama (talk) 20:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
"Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels was impressed with the film's message of social justice. In a 1928 speech he declared that "the political bourgeoisie is about to leave the stage of history. In its place advance the oppressed producers of the head and hand, the forces of Labor, to begin their historical mission"."
This entire paragraph has no direct reference, and little connection, to the film. 66.66.149.221 (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi,
The most known soundtrack, the classical one, takes up the majority of the section about the music. But the Moroder soundtrack I feel doesn't go into enough detail. What specific songs were on that soundtrack, and in what order?
--50.134.100.88 (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Aelita (1924) is the first science fiction feature-length film NOT Metropolis (1927). This is a weak page, and needs serious editing.
72.227.128.180 (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Several characters are listed without actors in the cast title card at the start of the film: The Creative Man, The Machine Man, Death, and The Seven Deadly Sins. Maria is listed right below these, at the end. This has caused many (including Google[1]) to presume incorrectly that Brigitte Helm played all of the roles listed above her name - clearly impossible, since Death and the Seven Deadly Sins all appear in the same scene, and since The Creative Man is the chief architect / conceiver of the Tower of Babel; the only character of this set that she played but was not listed for was The Machine-Man, the costume of which was cast from a mold of her body. Also, official sites list her only as playing "Maria"[2].
I think it would be helpful to list these uncredited roles in the Cast list with "(actor uncredited)" or something similar in place of the actor name, or else to have the information in a note below the cast list. Which solution appeals most to you? (I think I'll add the information in a note at the end of the cast list, but if there's significant support for the alternate option, please go ahead and make the change.) Memetics (talk) 12:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
We will be working on this page January and February 2016. If you have any questions feel free to contact us here.
Under 'Release' it is mentioned that there was a "spontaneous applaus" after its release in Berlin. However, we have found a source which mentions that the truth seems to be there was only "faint applause in which some boos and hisses could be heard". We thought it might be a good idea to include this alternative point of view to offer the article more balance. The book we have found mentioned both theories of endless applause and mild-negative reception so thought it might be best to replace the webpage citation with the book. It is the Minden and Bachmann book already in the bibliography. Josslynggg (talk) 20:34, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
The page number in the Minden and Bachmann book which includes the original reception is p.27 Paulwebb1021 (talk) 20:35, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
How about this:
Metropolis had its premiere at the Ufa-Palast am Zoo in Berlin on 10 January 1927 where a critic for the Berliner Morgenpost reported rapturous applause. Others have suggested the premiere was met with muted applause interspersed with boos and hisses.[1] Josslynggg (talk) 20:53, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
References
We decided to keep the webpage citation in as we think it's still a credible source, but have added the book source too :) Paulwebb1021 (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
On the page, under "Reception", virtually all of the section is dedicated to discussing the film's negative reviews. As previous editors have stated, many highly regarded critics are featured slandering the film, yet there is only fleeting evidence that the film received any positive critical praise. There are at least 4 paragraphs displaying negativity, whilst only a short summary of its achievements are stated. The page therefore features polemical content in this section. Even though it seems action has been taken by previous editors, we think more can be done. Therefore, to combat this, we thought it best to update this section with some more positive reviews. When looking in a book on Fritz Lang by Elizabeth Ann Kaplan, we found many positive reviews from 1927, one coming from the New York Times. Kaplan notes that the New York Times' reviewer stated in their review of Metropolis that the film "stands alone as a remarkable film achievement and then goes on to praise the visual style and the crowds of men and women."Gabemarzella (talk) 15:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
A second review from the same Kaplan book by W.H. states that "Metropolis surpasses even the high expectations that it had, leaving all American achievements far behind technically and artistically." By including these sources, the page will be less biased.Gabemarzella (talk) 15:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
I was thinking that we could add some positive critical response to the film under "Reception," to make the page less biased. This is what I was thinking - "At the time of the film’s release, some considered it a remarkable achievement and praised its visual splendour and ambitious production values, with a second reviewer stating that it completely surpassed the high expectations that it had".Gabemarzella (talk) 16:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm thinking of adding some more positive "Contemporary Acclaim" from The Guardian's Peter Bradshaw who says that The Maschinenmensch Robot based on Maria is "a brilliant eroticisation and fetishisation of modern technology." I feel it would flesh out the section. Gabemarzella (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm also correcting a mistake made by you Barte, as you've put the word "considered" twice when you moved the positive review up, so I'll just delete the repeated word. Gabemarzella (talk) 18:39, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I've been looking at the talk page, and there seems to be some debate over when the film is set. I've done a little digging, and found that there are actually multiple versions of the film with different dates. So, I've put together a little paragraph to clarify. It might be good to put this at the bottom of the plot summary, and then remove the reference to '2026' in the summary itself. Here it is;
The exact time period of Metropolis has been subject to multiple interpretations. The 2010 re-release and reconstruction, which incorporated the original title cards written by Thea von Harbou, do not specify an specific year. Prior to the reconstruction, Lotte Eisner and Paul M. Jensen had both placed the film’s events as happening sometime around the year 2000.[1][2] Giorgio Moroder’s re-scored version included a title card placing the film’s events in the year 2026, while Paramount’s original US release stated the film takes place in the year 3000.[3]
References
Ethanlyon2 (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I've taken a look at this issue and I understand the confusion there. I've edited the article to amend this, I have changed it from its original version of "In 2026 . . ." to "In the futuristic city of Metropolis". I hope that this will mediate between the conflicting versions of the films setting. WilliamBenjaminPritchard. (talk) 11:34, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
I also was looking over the production section, and the sentence about the actors is not entirely accurate; I did some reading around and came up with something. I'm using the original Minden and Bachmann reference, but adding a new one in. Here we are:
Lang cast two unknowns with little film experience in the lead roles. Gustav Frolich (Freder) had worked in vaudeville and was originally employed as an extra on Metropolis before Thea von Harbou recommended him to Lang.[1] Brigitte Helm (Maria) had been given a screen test by Lang after he met her on the set of Die Nibelungen, but would make her feature film debut with Metropolis[2] In the role of Joh Fredersen, Lang cast Alfred Abel, a noted stage and screen actor whom he had worked with on Dr. Mabuse the Gambler. Lang also cast his frequent collaborator Rudolph Klein-Rogge in the role of Rotwang. This would be Klein-Rogge’s fourth film with Lang, after Destiny (1921 film), Dr. Mabuse the Gambler, and Die Nibelungen.
Ethanlyon2 (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
References
I also was shown by a friend an excellent article that gives a greater overview of the added footage found in the Argentina print. I went to the section on Restoration, and I added some new material to one of the sentences. Said sentence begins; 'Two short sequences...'. Here's my new version;
Two short sequences, depicting a monk preaching and a fight between Rotwang and Fredersen, were damaged beyond repair. Title cards describing the action were inserted by the restorers to compensate. However, the Argentine print revealed a number of new scenes that enriched the film’s narrative complexity. In particular, the characters of Josaphet, the Thin Man and 11811 now appear throughout the film. The character of ‘Hel’ was also reintroduced.[1]
Ethanlyon2 (talk) 18:26, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
References
I noticed that both links concerning The New Pollutants' soundtrack were broken. I added 'citation needed' instead as I couldn't find any alternative sources, but is it necessary to include their version on the page? There are lots of other versions online, so not sure why this one in particular is included. Paulwebb1021 (talk) 19:53, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
A small section of the introduction suggests that the film is influenced by Futurist Italian architect Antonio Sant'Elia. I've found some information from McGilligan's book mentioning Bauhaus, Cubism as well as Futurism. My amendment also makes the introduction more concise and also gets rid of a dodgy web reference.
From: The motion picture's futuristic style shows the influence of the work of the Futurist Italian architect Antonio Sant'Elia.
To: The art direction draws influence from Bauhaus, Cubist and Futurist design.[1]
Josslynggg (talk) 14:40, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
References
There's a paragraph in the introduction regarding the reception of the film that is rather badly written. I've decided it needs to be streamlined. Here's the original;
The film met with a mixed response upon its initial release, with many critics praising its technical achievements and social metaphors while others derided its "simplistic and naïve" presentation. Because of its long running-time and the inclusion of footage which censors found questionable, Metropolis was cut substantially after its German premiere, and large portions of the film went missing over the subsequent decades.
This has 63 words
And here's my new version;
Metropolis received a mixed reception on release. Critics lauded its pictorial beauty and complex special effects, but derided the plot's naiveté.[1] The film also came in for criticism for its extensive running time, and its alleged Communist message[2]. Metropolis was cut substantially after its German premiere, removing a large portion of Lang's original footage.
This new one has 54 words.
Thoughts?
Ethanlyon2 (talk) 15:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
References
I was having a conversation with my lecturer today, and she suggested that there is so much material on the restoration of Metropolis, it merits an entirely new page. I have to agree; the reconstruction and restoration is a story in itself, with a lot of interesting details and research to be carried out. However, because our assignment was only concerned with the actual page for Metropolis itself, we don't have the time to even start such a task.
We finish with the page today. But I really think that making a new page about the restoration process would be invaluable to future students and scholars of film. In an age where older films are being restored every day, this is a fascinating example of such a process
Ethanlyon2 (talk) 11:42, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Hijiri88 recently tagged this section as possibly containing original research on the grounds that the citations which confirm the legal arguments do not explicitly mention Metropolis. This seems overly pedantic considering that the changes in US copyright law - and specific the restoration of copyright on certain foreign works - affects scores of films, and not just Metropolis. That said, Metropolis was and remains a frequently mentioned example of restored copyright (e.g. [4], [5], [6]). More to the point, even those who dispute that any copyrights should have been restored frequently cite Metropolis as a example of one which was! Nick Cooper (talk) 12:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
I went and read the referenced article used for "The case was overturned on appeal to the Tenth Circuit"
Here is what it says: "In a victory for public domain advocates, United States District Court Judge for the District of Colorado Lewis T. Babcock has ruled in Golan v. Holder (previously Golan v. Gonzales) that the restoration of copyright to certain foreign works formerly in the U.S public domain that resulted from Section 514 of the Uruguay Round Agreements Act violates the First Amendment." it is then stated "and that decision was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court on 18 January 2012. This had the effect of restoring the copyright in the work as of 1 January 1996."
So not only doesn't the referenced material NOT say what is being claimed it makes NO reference to a Tenth Circuit appeal. There is "There and back again: Supreme Court to decide whether Congress can provide copyright protection to works already in the public domain" by Bracewell LLP but I know nothing of its reliability. Do we have better references?--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:28, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Metropolis (1927 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:31, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Metropolis (1927 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I can find no positive reliable indication that Wells' extensive review (10 pages in book form) was originally published in The New York Times. It does not appear in the Times' archive, for that day or for any date, and the sources which reference if as coming from the Times do not give a source for their information. I suggest it's something that started somewhere, and everyone's been repeating it ever since. If anyone has iron-clad proof of first publication in the Times, I'd be glad to see it.
In the meantime, I've replaced the source for the essay used in the article to a reference to the essay's republication in book form in 1928, the text of which is available from the Internet Archive. It dates the essay 17 April 1927 (as do the other sources), but gives no indication that I can find of where it was originally published. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: I make a couple of innocuous edits to remedy layout errors and you threaten me with being reported? Try WP:BRD WP:OWN and WP:Civil first. Instead you pollute my talk page with
...in which all you do is to add spaces or subtract space none of which will show up on the rendered page. Ny making these kinds of edits, such as this you clutter up people's watchpages, and force other editors to laboriously go through your edit to see if you made any substantive changes. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Imported text Keith-264 (talk) 13:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)