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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 30 March 2001 and 3 October 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Media bias/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Kerowyn 10:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Does this problem still exist? If so, could someone point out some examples to me and I'll fix them. --Kerowyn 08:43, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them Al Franken. ISBN This was removed from the bibliography on the grounds that the book addresses politics rather than media bias. However, looking at the article on the book itself, it appears that Franken does discuss media bias in relation to politics. I think it should stay, but I'm open to suggestions. Kerowyn 07:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
So it sounds more like a "bias in the US" piece of information and it should only be in the bibliography if we use it in the course of writing the article. Perhaps we could put it in a further reading section? Kerowyn 21:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I think we are making progress. I have tried to do some rewriting to maintain a neutral point of view, including pointing out that while favoring one particular religion is a kind of bias, NOT favoring one particular religion is also a kind of bias. In other words, bias is a natural part of all human interaction, and can be discussed, but not eliminated.
I agree with Jasonlvc. For example, the media bias against racism is, in the eyes of most people, a positive quality. It is all very well for an encyclopedia such as Wikipedia to maintain a NPOV on racism -- I would not want my daily paper to do so. The article on bias should not limit itself to "bad" bias, but should just describe media bias and its effects.
A second point. There are degrees of bias, and so the position that balanced treatments do not exist does not mean that some treatments are more balanced than others.
I think we are making progress, both in style and substance. Rick Norwood
The header on this page states "This page contains controversial issues, some of which may have reached concensus". Don't people reach concensus? Issues are ideas; they are inanimate, intangible constructs. Issues don't reach. Is this a weasle-worded way to avoid confronting the fact that there can be no concensus in a group process for which boundaries are not defined in terms of specific time span and personnel? Romuth 13:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Furthermore, the idea of a free press is also something of a modern invention, and early media sources could expect a pronounced degree of lobbying, interference and even censorship from powerful interests. For these reasons, the printing press was often used as a tool of political advocacy. The vast majority of newspapers were openly partisan in nature, with editorializing deeply integrated with the reporting of current events."
i snipped the above graph because it lacks foundation and fails to describe the evolution of a free press in anything but vague, wistful terms that presume current conditions diverge widely from previous conditions. Until the early 18th century, the British crown controlled the press by licensing and by sedition laws. In England, licensing ended in 1695, and it ended in the mid-1720's in the American colonies. The last print-oriented sedition trial in the American colonies was in 1734.
I'm also returning to the article to remove the claim that "neutral point of view" has a historic role in media, or any role at all. There is no evidence the oxymoronic term is used anywhere prior to being coined as a philosophy for Wikipedia. The historic interest in accuracy among professional journalists is best described in terms journalists historically used to describe their interest. Romuth 14:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
In The Tipping Point, Gladwell cites a study (Mullen, et al, "Newscasters facial expressions and voting behavior of viewers: Can a smile elect a President?", Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (1986), 51, 291-295), that suggests that not only is Peter Jennings not liberal, but that he has a record of smiling and being more positive when discusssing Republican candidates. The article then analyzes the effects of this, and finds that viewers of ABC on the whole voted more Republican than viewers of other networks as a result. This probably belongs in the article somewhere, as its a good example of scientifically confirmed media bias (which you dont see often).
This is great. I'm so glad you wrote this article. --LMS
Reasons for which I have removed this:
A: Are WWII newsreels and today's news really similar? Would you care to give examples for those who don't watch TV news? (Someone like me, for example.) B: Media slant towards corporate interests is covered quite well under the section on conservative media bias, with examples and possible explanations included. --Mirv
Where is the section on political bias? A "progressive/conservative" split mentioned in one sentence hardly suffices.
We need examples of political bias, not speculation that corporate pressure 'ought' to cause conservative bias.
We need statistics, too. What percent of stories in the leading newspapers of the English-speaking world are biased, and in what direction? According to which researchers?
We should try to answer these questions and not sweep the whole issue under the rug, just because it's hard or unsettling to provide answers. --Uncle Ed 18:44, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, is there a reason this page (at the bottom) links to a) a liberal organization (FAIR), and b) a liberal writer (Franken)? Why not, say, Bias as well? (Besides the fact that Bias only has a stub written for it.) I'm a new Wiki user, so I don't want to go around making possibly controversial edits (yet), so I was just wondering why the discrepency...?
If we're going to be presenting FAIR's findings, should we not point out that FAIR itself is a left-wing organization? That seems only, well, fair. Beginning 20:40, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)
Someone should put in the latest outrage of liberal media bias, the Killian memos fiasco. [ed. you should do it] -- yes I know I should, but I thought I'd see if someone else would do it first :-) Sdaconsulting 00:35, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I added reference to Killian memos, but Neutrality deleted reference, his comment: 'minor edit'. :) --Fish-man 03:02, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
If you put it back, could you add some text based on this LA Times reference too? "The conservative media's handling of the Swift boat dispute is a case study in bias." Thanks. Wolfman 05:09, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You see, if CBS reports it, and ABC and the Washington Post debunk it, CBS' reporting proves the bias while ABC and the Washington Post do not discount it. Seems awfully arbitrary to me. --Taak 10:01, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thats probably a good idea. Seems like a glaring ommission to fail to note that FAIR is a 'progressive' group. mike
This whole discussion indicates an inability to maintain a neutral point of view. Encyclopedia articles should not be about the outrage of the moment, but about subjects of lasting interest.
We could add a section for Examples of media bias, and have a subsections for Liberal and Conservative, and ask editors to add a one or two sentance description in a particular format, like Source, Rough Date, description... I don't think it would be wise to clutter up the page with lots of example text (i.e. the raw data), that isn't what this page is for. But people would have to care enough about it to put items back when removed.
Examples should NOT be a) American or b) current. This article should inform, not propagandize.
I've added an insidiious and often subconscious behavior that results in liberal bias, I've even seen it among supposedly "conservative" commentators and reporters. Where given some often heart wrenching social problem or crisis, the lazy reporter instead of investigating the causes and potential solutions to the problem, runs to a government official and asks "what are you going to do about it", even though the correct answer might be "nothing" it is not a federal issue, the politician is afraid of looking heartless. The implicit assumption by the reporter is that government should do something about it. This is an important source of liberal bias that should be represented in this article.--Silverback 16:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
BTW, It is not POV to label the assumption that there is a government role in most social issues as liberal. This is a factual distinction between the liberal and conservative positions. Don't go assuming for instance, that because Bush supports federal funding for education, that this is the conservative position. Bush moved, not the conservative philosophy. Bush is liberal on other issues as well. The lazy reporter who runs to a politician for a quote on social problems is demonstrating liberal bias, whether mainstream republicans also support government intervention on that issue or not.--Silverback 16:50, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On further thought, is some respects Bush can be said to be anti-authoritarian, such as when he eventually rejected U.N. authority and as some claim, went to war without that legitimization of authority required by Just War Theory. He made the decision based on principles that he articulated rather than in reaction to some attack, so in this circumstance he was not reactionary either.--Silverback 18:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Directly contradicting FAIR's assertions is a 2002 study by Jim Kuypers of Dartmouth College: Press Bias and Politics. [3] (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~speech/bias.html) In this study of 116 mainstream papers, Kuypers found that the mainstream press in America operate within a narrow range of liberal beliefs.
I have removed the paragraph on Kuypers, for three reasons:
(1) As the previous writer says, Kuyper's book is not comparable to the FAIR study since Kuyper focuses on race and homosexuality.
(2) Kuypers argues that the press has a *liberal* bias. His book does not belong under the heading of "Conservative Bias," where it appeared.
(3) The description of Kuyper's book is incomplete and inaccurate. A complete description would point out that Kuyper's book is focused on just six occasions when a public figure made comments related to race or homosexuality, and on how those comments were framed in the press. An accurate description would also point out that Kuyper presents his own rather controversial views as fact. For example, echoing Charles Davidson, Kuypers labels as a "lie" the claim that "the war between the states was fought over slavery."
I'm not sure why most of these links are there. I've annotated them so the reader at least has some idea of what they are supposed to be None of them look to be at all non-partisan to me, I'm not sure any of them should be here unless they are examples of different views of media bias. I'm not sure if there is some little game being played out among link adders ("I'll add my favorite site which proves that media bias exists in X form!") but I'm not sure they are at all appropriate for a balanced encyclopedia article, much less without annotations explaining why they are there. I think that editors more invested in this page (I just stumbled across it) ought to review them a little more carefully. --Fastfission 20:55, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I added metanarrative because people 'always' try to give out facts as if there were right. Even though its postmodern (left-wing) philosophy it still needs to be mentioned for the sake of moderate-aiming and neutrality. An analytic philosophy view on metanarrative would be interesting.
I couldn't help but notice the word "claimed" in front of "liberal bias", but the word "claimed" was missing from "conservative bias". To make it equitable, I placed the word "claimed" in front of "conservative bias" as well (and yes, I left "claimed" in front of "liberal bias"). --c0t0d0s0
As an outsider to the US liberal vs conservative debate, my perception is that the "liberal bias" vs "conservative bias" in the article is itself biased into showing that the US media has a "liberal bias". (If I may say, my personal perception is that the US media is biased with a nationalistic and exceptionalist point of view permeating the whole American society.) David.Monniaux 15:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article needs a serious editing, especially being less US-centric and integration with Propaganda Model stuff.
Bias? CNN's chief news executive, Eason Jordan, admitted that they refused to report many of Saddam Hussein's atrocities in Iraq which they knew about, in return for being allowed to stay there.
There is no inherent ideological bias in the above excerpt from the article. In the article it is played as being liberal, but since it is fundamentally a business decision, it could be played as a conservative bias.
It may be prudent to mention that Anne Coulter is a raging conservative and that some of her claims ("I believe there is a lot of dog-sledding in Canada") are ridiculous. That, or remove her allegations from this page altogether.
The following text has several POV problems:
The above example regarding alleged bias of Newsweek makes certain claims of fact that are either unsupported and simply opinion. The evidence does not suggest Newsweek wrote a knowingly falsified story but rather that their source for the claim, after it was published, claimed he "could no longer be sure" regarding his original claims. Whether the flushing of the Koran claims published by Newsweek are truly false or simply currently unproven (but potentially true) is in dispute. While the source has since stated he "could no longer be sure" that the Koran allegation "had surfaced" in the SouthCom investigation, he did not say the allegation was false. Also the statement about "terrorists" being responsible for the riots is also presented as fact when it is nothing more then opinion. Unless proof is provided then such claims need to be clearly labeled as the opinion of Anne Coulter. --Cab88 12:35, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
???Who suggested Newsweek was conservatively biased? I don't think there is any noticeable bias with Newsweek beyond what it takes to sell magazines. Doing so requires getting to the story first, their haste to do so, not their bias, is what caused the problems. They checked out their usually reliable source, they have used that source on previous occasions, but this time the source retracted their story after the magazine went to bed. After a couple weeks of the administration and a (Liberal??) media marching in lockstep to destroy Newsweek's credibility. Then we hear from the Administration that, yes, Koran descescration occurred, maybe not exactly as Newsweek's article claimed, but do you think that if anyone was rioting over it's descration they care whether it was from being flushed versus urinated on and kicked? Bottom line, taken in whole, the Newsweek story is a poor example to use for liberal or conservative bias and probably should be excised from the article completely.
The main problem I have with Coulter's article is as follows:
Seems to me that she is far more biased than the bias she is trying to depict. I consider the above paragraph racist because she labels Islamics as "savages" and generalizes by saying Islamics "fly planes into American skyscrapers" - when in reality it was a terrorist group. It's like saying French barbarians killed Canadian politicians in the FLQ. If Coulter's article is used, I'd like to see it used as an example of bias and not as a "reliable" source.--64.180.101.42 09:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why did 'Neutrality' delete parts from 'Liberal versus conservative'? I had read the article, but when I wanted to read it again, some hours later, parts from it were gone. Why so? The article gave examples of liberal and conservative media bias, but now the liberal examples are deleted and the conservative examples remain. I think with removing large parts of an article, one should explain one's intentions first. Averroes
In that case you should be consequent in your actions and also delete the following:
Because now it seems (I'm not saying you are, but it just *seems* to be so) you only want to delete the parts about 'liberal' media bias, having the effect it seems you do not really practise what your name preaches, Neutrality. Just some tips to keep in mind. So, I will delete some of the parts in 'conservative' bias to balance the article. Averroes
For the record, FAIR and the other "watchdogs" of various political stripes are all trying to ensure that their POV is adequately and accurately covered, and that the media talks about what they think matters. They all have agendas - they're mostly quite clear about that - but as long they argue fairly and honestly that's OK. We should be cautious about using their reports, but not dismiss them without good cause. Rd232 21:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Definitly, They all deserve attention... And i think we should them the attention. There very important to help learn more indepth information. Go to a conservative watchdog groups and go to a liberal watchdog groups, After reading what they both have you have such a great grasp on the subject. The only problem i have seen several times people don't like to consider there watchdog group as liberal or conservative. Its not that hard to tell which are conservative or liberal... there are not much big neutral groups. We should respect both and tell about both. Not just try to knock of one side and let the other stay. With Media bias they play a HUGE role in the topic and should be addressed. With the bias.. But does anyone else think there is definitly a large media bias on both sides? Each side has there own bias? Its doesnt really get talked about much with the political games but could there just be two big media bias. I know alot of people like to say there isnt a bias from my side but there is from the other. Does anyone else agree with me? just wondering. --Jas0n22193 03:28, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
"Only too eager to believe things against President Bush" -- this sentence is blatantly POV. Does anyone dispute this? Shem (talk) 15:46, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if this was split into media bias and media bias in the United States? Neutralitytalk 17:16, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
I changed my mind, the article has become very unwieldly since the merged material was added, and I don't want to copyedit the rest of it (I did the first half) because I don't know too much about the liberal vs conservative bias in the US.
Does anybody know how to split it effectively, perhaps by making a sub-article?illWill 17:14, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
It was more split and then someone did a merger without any discussion on seperate and developing articles on Liberal and Conservative bias, now it's a big fat mess, full of unsubstantiated and unsourced POV. There were seperate articles being developed and I wish the editor who did this overly bold merger would correct that and then aspects of bias can be dealt with with sold, sound examples. Calicocat 02:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't a merge be discussed a bit before being done? Merges are usually accomplished with a proposal and some discussion. I'm all for being bold in editing, but this is not that. Calicocat 05:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Two seperate articles on Liberal bias and Conservative bias were "dump merged" into this article without any discussion or attempt to build concensus, see recent history. I objected to this on the Journalism project page, but as yet nothing has been done to rectify the situation. Calicocat 03:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
This entire section is replete with weasel words and unsubstantiated, unsourced POV. Calicocat 02:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Despite some rewording, the same fundamental problems -- the nature of which is described above -- still exists. Calicocat 05:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
While some of this article is good and sourced, much of it is very dubious and POV with too many weasel words. It's full of phrases such as "some say," and things in the passive voice with no substantiation and sources given. Sections of this article were lifted from other developing articles in a slapdash fashion in a "merger" that was done overly boldly without discussion prior to the action and now what's here is a long, wandering, unfocused POVed mess. I'm sorry if this sounds strong -- nothing in way of a personal attack is intended, but lets take a really hard look at this and rewrite it. Calicocat 02:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but I won't contribute to any wiki-type project that doesn't attribute sources used in an article, but I will be so generous as to expose fallacies as I read them. This article (as of today's date) states, "The news media tend to cover stories which give higher ratings...". This is fallacious, as demonstrated by the following reasons.
The phrase "give ... ratings" suggests a lack of skill with language or a lack of understanding of various ratings processes. Stories might help a media outlet gain, achieve or earn higher ratings, but rating organizations give ratings.
Most ratings are based on audience size. It might be slightly more accurate to say some sources claim media select stories that appeal to the broadest possible audience. But again, this reflects a naive view of the audience selection process. From my training and original experince, I know media tend to produce material that will attract a prefered audience. Each media outlet has unique audience preferences, based on corporate missions and on their strategy for attracting advertisers, sponsors or financial supporters. Some news outlets select stories that will appeal to a particular ethnic, political, cultural, religious or professional group. Some media, for example the Wikipedia Signpost, are obviously established to represent the interests of a specific organization. Numerically, there are far more of these minor media outlets than there are major media outlets. The notion that the "news media" are ABC, NBC, CBS and CNN is just wrong.
More problematic is the very concept of ratings as it is represented in relation to "media". There is no ratings process for most media. Ratings sytsems are established primarily for broadcast media. But there is no evidence to support an unattributed conclusion that ratings play a role in story selection.
Finally, though the opinions reflected in this note offer more substantive foundation than does the opinion stated in the phrase "... media tend to cover stories which give higher ratings..." this is my opinion. It is not a statement of encyclopedic fact. Unless someone cares to do the research to find facts supporting the hypotheses I present here, this is of no relevance to any encyclopedic content except that I have presented sound reasons to remove the phrase in question as well as all related statements that are based on the implications of the unsupported opinion. A'bsal 22:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
In order to better faciltate the rewrite which this article so desperately needs, I have hived off much of the material which was merged into it to a separate article called Media bias in the United States. Hopefully this will be the first of a series (it would be great if somebody could do Media bias in the United Kingdom, Media bias in Australia and Media bias in Israel as sub-articles).
I'm of the opinion that the main article should focus primarily on:
I think all of these points could be extended from their current focus on the US-based, English-langauge media to provide a broader picture of the global media. Hopefully, a better-structured main article will facilitate this process.illWill 16:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
After visiting this article, reading the comments on this page, and following a few links I realize there is a rampant misperception of the meaning of the term "bias", which is consistent with the widespread public analysis that Wikipedia is littered with misinformation. Bias is not a prejudice, but instead a tendency toward a certain direction. The concept of bias comes from description of natural materials, such as the bias of cloth.
Throughout the articles I visited I found a persistant point of view that wikipedia is a document intended to be free of bias. Hence we have a conundrum, in which wikipedia claims to be biased toward a neutral point of view. NPOV is in itself an oxymoronic concept, propped up primarily by a biased notion of the superior Wisdom of Crowds.
Point of view is a very specific concept -- it defines the position from which a person views a subject. We could not describe our position when we took a photograph as "neutral", nor can we accurately describe our position in reflecting a topic as "neutral", regardless what pseudo-concensus might claim to have determined it a reasonable concept. Point of view, literally is a place, and places, while they may politically be categrized as representing one side or another, can only be described in relation to other places. A plurality of places, with relation to the concept of rhetorical point of view, is better described as "inclusive".
Now, the concept of neutral might position this document apart from similar projects which allow more license for individuals to eleborate on their particular point of view, but each seek to describe subjects from inclusive points of view. As apparent to a reader, wikipedia attempts to describe subjects front, back, top, bottom, left, right, inside and out. The bias is toward inclusion and accuracy. Neutrality, however, describes indifference to the concept of accuracy.
Back to the topic of media bias, it might not be pheasible at this time, given a general disdain among media personnel for contributing to a source widely considered to be strewn with misinformation, to attract the writers needed to compile an accurate, inclusive description of the tendencies that cause the bias in media. For now, I'll just leave this note.
I will add, however, that in general this encyclopedia's description of media topics reflects an outsiders bias -- unlike topics on computer sciences or natural sciences, the media articles read as if written by writers who have a prejudice against popular means of mass communication. A step toward more accurate and academic description of media and communication would be proper categorization of related articles. To the contrary, Mass media as a category has been nominated for deletion. The vote so far is weighing in favor of keeping the category, but I added a suggestion that the category describing the content of distributed mediated communication is mass communication under which sub-categories would properly define news media and inside that journalism. Proper classification of related commications topics would be a step toward arranging subjects so writers can easily navigate and sort related topics, and begin to correct the bias against recognizing bias in all constructs, whether they be constructs of natural materials or constructs of the human mind. Or... 04:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I've rearranged the introduction so that it follows the following form:
I've then moved studies and theories of media bias to section 1, as I suspect this is what many people reading about media bias in an encyclopedia will be looking for. I've mentioned a few specific studies, their approaches and conclusions, and have done away with the more general "there exist studies that discuss this and this...". But my list needs to be greatly expanded to fairly characterise the methodologies and results of the main studies of media bias. Please add to this section.
The history of media bias has been moved to the second section at present. It could do with a complete rewrite. If someone wants to give a complete account of control over the printing press and such up to the 18th Century through to the 20th, please do so. I don't have time to personally research this. :-)
Finally, I have left all the later sections intact, but they're really quite a mess. I'm hoping that as the "studies and theories" section is expanded, we will be able to move text to it in obvious places, and this article can take on some structure.
Providing there are no serious objections, I will continue work on this article over the next few weeks. Jasonlvc 02:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Something else I should mention. I've added a "references" section, and in-text citations. If you wish to contribute, stick to citable literature and keep away from giving your personal opinions about what bias is, what causes it, and who is biased. Read Wikipedia's policy on no original research for more information. Jasonlvc 02:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm wondering if the section on the role of language needs to be there at all? The only sentence that seems to have anything to do with media bias is "The choice of language of mass media may represent a bias towards the group most likely to speak that language, and can limit the public participation by those who do not speak the language." This can probably be moved elsewhere.
The other stuff concerns someone's observations that the mass media's reach is limited by language barriers, Al Jazeera's audience, and something I can't make much sense of about language not "homogenizing" opinion in the US. I think the signal:noise ratio is too low to justify this section, and removing it would aid the cleanup.
Similarly, "National and ethnic viewpoint" is just a sequence of weasel statements and vague opinion: "[m]any news organizations reflect or are perceived to reflect", "Western media is often criticized", "Al-Jazeera has been frequently criticized", "accusations of bias from one or both sides". There's no real substance, I don't think.
Shall we just drop these sections and start again with more solid material? Jasonlvc 08:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Further to this, perhaps the sections beyond theories and history should simply be the different categories of bias listed in the introduction? i.e. ethnic/racial bias, corporate bias, class bias, political bias, religious bias, sensationalism, ideological bias, and peer culture bias.
I'm not sure about "peer culture bias", actually. Does someone have a reference to some study of this in particular? And how does it differ from plain old ideological/political bias? It looks to me like the examples given, (environmentalism, anti-globalism) are either political or ideological in nature, and not necessarily related to "peer culture" per se. Someone might be an environmentalist because of his peers, or because he has read environmental books, or just because he watches nature programmes on television. Additionally, I can find no reference to "peer culture bias" from a Google search. Unless someone points me to some literature on this, I will remove it. Jasonlvc 06:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude or pretentious, but you have made numerous edits and reverts based on what appear to be your ideas and opinions. Are you familiar with any of the (substantial) literature on media bias? Jasonlvc 04:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
In addition:
Jasonlvc 21:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I notice someone added the possibility that censorship could be covert. That's fair, but perhaps we should be more specific. I mentioned "overt censorship" because I wanted to convey some idea of a spectrum, beginning with the extreme, most blatant source of media bias. I backed it up with a specific example and reference, which should probably return. Covert censorship I guess is the next step down - you want to censor something without appearing that you're doing so. What sorts of things do people imagine when considering covert Government censorship, and is there another more specific way to describe it? Examples that we could reference would be helpful. Jasonlvc
When I saw somewhere the (what was to me) unknown acronym "SCLM" I naturally turned to wikipedia for an explanation. I was redirected to Media Bias, and rightly so, but I was not able to discover what the acronym stood for. Google revealed it as an acronym for "so-called liberal media." I edited the SCLM page to add that explanation, and of course left the redirect there. Now the SCLM page has been edited to exclude that explanation. Where should that explanation properly be? c3k
Excelent rewrites, Silverback and Gazpacho. It makes me think we are actually making progress Rick Norwood 18:09, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I am strongly tempted to revert the recent annoymous edits to the previous version by Silverback. But, I don't want to get into a reversion war, so I'm giving annoymous a chance to comment here before I do anything.
On another subject, it seems like the whole Mark Halperin affair belongs in Media Bias in the United States instead of here. Rick Norwood 20:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Very quiet around here yesterday and today. On the subject of accusations of anti-religious bias in science journals, these have been reported in the Wall Street Journal and so probably do belong in this article, or maybe in the Media Bias in the United States article. I have heard similar accusations coming out of Italy, but can't cite sources. Rick Norwood 14:10, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
I am temporarily at a loss on how to react to Zappaz's contributions to this article. My first reaction is that his comments belong in the article, Media bias in the United States, since all or almost all of his comments are about US media. Can anyone think of an appropriate response? Rick Norwood 22:08, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
This certainly seems to be sufficient evidence to revert the most recent additions. I've only been a Wikipedian for about six months. What is the reversion protocol. Should I just do it? Rick Norwood 12:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Though it's not surprising... anyone daring to try to take on a full re-write of this article on a site like this would be insane. I'm not insane, so I'll simply provide an idea. Would it not improve the article considerably if 80% of the content was just removed? It's nearly all poorly-written guff which adds nothing to understanding or explanation of the subject matter, and instead simply drowns any reader in irrelevant walls of text. The 'External Links' section just as a start - many of the articles aren't external at all, and it seems to have degenerated into an advertising board for blogs and minor websites. The 'Scholarly Treatment' section is a horrific mess and perhaps pushed my view on the article too far into the negative. 'Experimenter's Bias' - just a basic 'this is what it is' and a link to the main article. And on, and on...
I don't edit this thing much, just found this page so especially poor that I had to at least throw an idea out there to people who might care enough to do something about it... 87.102.38.11 (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I've archived the talk page for this article. If there are issues in the archived talk page that you feel still need to be addressed, please repost them here. Please do not revert the whole page. Thanks Kerowyn 10:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
one organization complains about the liberal media continually, www.newsbusters.org. They do not allow a free discussion. They eventually ban anyone that disagrees their very right wing bias.
Just curious about this... If you type "liberal bias" into the wikipedia search field, it directs you to Media bias in the United States. If you type in "conservative bias," it directs you to this article, Media Bias. Is there any reason for this? Vordabois 05:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Obviously a Liberal Bias. PCRRN (talk) 23:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Using 'liberal' to mean left-wing is American usage, so 'Liberal bias' is a US-specific term. 'Conservative' has a more universal meaning. 139.80.123.34 (talk) 03:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I was also curious about this. The use of the term 'Liberal' on this page is essentially US Biased (and when dealing with bias, surely this is important). I would term it 'Labour' biased, or 'Left-Wing' biased (being a Brit). There must be a more universal way to term this. --KRMike (talk) 00:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I see that anyone with an opinion is free to express it here. It doesn't matter how misguided that opinion may be. I wonder how long it will take for Wikipedia to remove an unpopular opinion. For example, if someone was to say that anyone who believes "a US president started two disastrous wars and destroyed the world economy" must be a wife-beating, bestiality-loving, moron who eats his own boogers slightly off. Let's see how that goes.Scurry64 (talk) 18:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure there are some commendable booger eaters in the world. I don't actually detect a difference between a comment on a public figure and a comment on a "Wikipedian". A negative comment is a negative comment regardless of its intended target. The target doesn't alter the message. There are people who deserve the occasional negative remark, although I'm sure you're not included in this group. I was simply trying to make a point. Although I don't agree with your opinion, its wrong to cast your actions in a negative light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scurry64 (talk • contribs)
To me in the UK Liberal means Libertarien, not Socialist. I would assume liberal-bias means more Socialist, not more Libertarien.
The style of this page is too pompous. Exchgganges on media bias are a dirty, cruel war. Its battlefields are covered with dead bodies (Dan Rather, Mary Mapes, etc). This ain't no salon discussion. This page should be an organized collection of examples of exposed bias and a bibliography of studies on the subject. I tried to add several examples, all from non-US media to adhere to the page theme, but a major style check is needed. BTW, how many readers know what "sycophantic" mean? Emmanuelm 19:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Media Matters was able to de-bunk the UCLA study quite effectively. this should be posted: http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003.
Also the seminal Virginia Commonwealth study should certainly be included. I teach occasional electives on the media, and find many of the “academic” studies listed on this article deeply flawed for reasons I expanded on. -Brit
A UCLA study has been released, and a recap is here. How do we incorporate? --badlydrawnjeff 17:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a tricky issue, though. One can certainly argue that claiming that the reporters actually influence the output to a great degree is like saying that the people working the floor of an automanufacturing plant have a say in the construction of a car. This issue is complicated, and worth discussion in how we frame reports like this.
Nonetheless, it is ludircous that Chomsky is not mentioned here at all. Being the progenitor of the idea of a "propagandizing" media, and supposedly one of the most influential people on earth (whatever that means etc.).
We should definitly include East Timor in this discussion (as there were 200,000 people killed and no one reported on it, and the US was complicit in arms deals with Suharto-the invading force in east timor).
Academics, schmackademics. Considering that most of them have never worked in a newsrooom one day in their lives, I find them unqualified to judge editorial decisions. Chomsky's worldview is clouded by his Marxism, and he cannot be taken seriously as an objective source. I am sure those on the Left would find citing Brent Bozell's Media Research Center offensive or non-objective.
>Chomsky, though leftist has in reality little respect for Marxism. Read his works. He also has an objective scientific bent that is quite effective -Brit
If Chomsky goes in, then so-should Bozell's work. --68.45.161.241 14:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Media Matters is not a unbiased source of information. Relying on a Media Matters study to 'debunk', the UCLA study seems biased in and of itself. The article itself should be more balanced. ozoneliar 5 October 2006
Media Matters is not a site i would not put much faith in at all. Alot of the things i have heard about Media Matters has been negative, in regard to their facts and sourices. I would do research on it before I used it, to be safe. A vote on deleting it may be needed. this is like pie
I thought that a page about media bias had to have a chapter about blogs. I also rearranged the external links, dividing them into blogs and others. Feel free to expand on my short chapter and add more links. Emmanuelm 21:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The article says - "Clearly, CBC editors want their readers to judge these acts differently, depending on the origin of the people targeted for killing. This particular word bias is not unique to the CBC, but can also be found in many western news source."
"Clearly" is a weasel word used to introduce an NPOV comment. Is there evidence that CBC deliberately chose those words to cause their readers to judge the two differently? If so, quote and link the source. There are other possible explanations - for example that Palestinian terrorists only get into the news as suicide bombers, whereas al-Qaida terrorists are more likely to be referred to in relation to the police operations looking for them or investigating potential plots in the US/Canada. Note - I'm not saying this is necessarily true, I'm just proposing an alternate hypothesis to show that it's not "clear". --195.8.190.39 15:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
because the article is about pov, it is self referential making it unavoidable. John wesley 17:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The introductory sentence defines media bais as being limited to journalism, but it also includes non-journalistic media -- movies, television shows, and music. Unless I am mistaken, those are also "(mainstream) media" and I know that I've heard complaints about how "liberal" pop media tend to be. I think that journalistic bias should be handled on its own page...at least this page should acknowledge that there is more to "the media" than just journalism, and direct readers to the proper articles. AdamRetchless 05:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following because it is heavily POV, and not really to the point:
I replaced it with an item called "exaggerated influence of minority views". AdamRetchless 05:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Good call, AdamRetchless. Political correctness is really something else entirely. Rick Norwood 12:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I have worked in two mainstream newsrooms in Virginia and Pennsylvania, and can anyone explain to me why I was the only person who was remotely conservative? The editorial standards I have been forced to work under have been so PC that I have been forced to put up and shut up. Saying media culture is skewed to the Left is pretty accurate from my personal experience, not to mention my interactions with reporters from other news organizations. I have been routinely harassed by my secular, liberal co-workers because I am a practicing traditional Greek Catholic, at times for years. I have had my faith mocked to my face and have even suffered discrimination for my faith because I didn't want to go along with PC rules. The AP style manual, the Bible of Journalism, is skewed to the left. You can say a person who opposes abortion rights is anti-abortion, but you can't refer to someone who supports abortion rights as pro-abortion. I could list many others. I think the problem lies in the fact Liberals who have worked in journalism find everyone else in the newsroom shares their worldview, so they come to believe being Liberal=being objective. Being objective means you set aside your feelings and even go to the extent of writing your stories in the Third person. User:Pravknight--146.145.70.200 17:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I wish I knew the answer. I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but my experience has been city dwellers tend to be more self-absorbed and uncaring of how their actions affect their neighbors. Rural folks tend to be more community-oriented as a whole and be more sensitive of how their bad behaviors negatively impact their neighbors. In a city, you have the luxury of anonymity, but not in the country, hence the conservatism.
From my experience, my liberal co-workers have been more attracted to hedonistic pursuits than in the conservative, rural Pennsylvania community where I grew up. User:Pravknight--68.45.161.241 14:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say it's more that city folks are accustomed to being told what to do, and liberalism being an offshot of communism/socialism is all 'just let the government decide for you' which they can live with. It's main failing, great promises that fall short in the real world don't really get noticed by them because too much is going on for them to keep track of wasted projects. It's doubtful most city people know more then 1 person connected in any way to politics. Country folk on the other hand by the very nature of the lifestyle are more independant. They want to keep what they work for, make their own decisions, and stupid programs get noticed and are harder to hide when everyone knows someone on the planning commitee. So conservative thought which keeps the government out of their lives and as small as possible reigns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.11.132.73 (talk) 08:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Pravknight, "Liberalism" is usually associated with an excessive concern for others' well-being, to the extent of passing laws mandating good behavior. "Conservative Republicans" in the US are small-government individualists who believe in leaving individuals to fend for themselves and make their own choices. How does that make liberals self-centered, and conservatives caring, doting communalists? Aren't hippies and marxists and communists lefty liberals? Don't conservatives oppose welfare and socialized healthcare? Have you spent any time in a big city? I've not seen very much hedonism, and I left Sodom (New York) to move to Gomorrah (San Francisco.) This is a major problem with the media bias -- it's almost impossible to tell if it's pushing a large agenda, or just a small contingent's!
Incidentally, the AP style manual discourages "pro-abortion" because many "pro-choice" folks are against abortion, just also against the laws. Finally, being objective and writing in the third person have almost nothing to do with one another.
that's kind of his point —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.102.251 (talk) 21:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
While it is nice to have some hard data, this new section really belongs in Media bias in the United States rather than here. Rick Norwood 13:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that blogs are 'reliable' news outlets. Therefore I removed the blog section, should you return it, then we'll need some sources to back up your claims that major news stations use them.
I believe that Media Matters was able to de-bunk the UCLA study quite effectively. this should be posted: http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003.
Also the seminal Virginia Commonwealth study should certainly be included. I teach occasional electives on the media, and find many of the “academic” studies listed on this article deeply flawed for reasons I expanded on.
Chomsky, though leftist has in reality little respect for Marxism. Read his works. He also has an objective scientific bent that is quite effective
I believe that Media Matters was able to de-bunk the UCLA study quite effectively. This should be posted: http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003. i also thought that in order to make a statement such as the following quote, one should define “liberal” and “conservative” and the context –compared to WHAT?: “A major problem in studies is experimentor bias. Studies of US Media Bias studies show that A) Liberal experimentors tend to get results that say the media has a conservative bias, B) conservative experimentors get results indicating a liberal bias, and C) experimentors that do not identify themselves as either liberal or conservative do not detect any bias.”
Objective analysis does exist. So when Galileo suggested that the earth went around the sun, the Church considered him “biased”, biased enough to be put under house arrest. He was a “liberal” for his time and place (or even a “radical” since “liberal” means reformist.) His evidence was objective – advanced optics in his new telescope that allowed fairly conclusive study of the sky.
What I am getting at is that many of these studies draw the line so far to the right in what is considered moderation in the real world ( For instance poll after poll have shown that a vast majority of global moderates do not agree with the Iraq occupation or approve of government sponsored health care. Indeed theses days most of the American “public’ do as well (e.g http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-10-19-health-poll_x.htm ), yet even the “liberal’s” – US Democrats as defined by the many studies above voted for the war and have failed to pass policies that provide public health care fro all.) –Brit Bunkley
I added another small piece of evidence on how media bias works: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2595). Students of mine are always asking me "how it works". I think that this article illustrates one element of the propaganda model effectively.Bunkley 02:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Good link. Rick Norwood 14:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Media Matters is not a site i would not put much faith in at all. Alot of the things i have heard about Media Matters has been negative, in regard to their facts and sourices. I would do research on it before I used it, to be safe. A vote on deleting it may be needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.160.61 (talk) 04:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I became curious about this "UCLA Media Bias" study. Looked it up. (Thru provided links) Fail. It was so notoriously flawed, that the WALL STREET JOURNAL issued a rebuttal to the survey, as one of the effects of the survey methodology was that the WSJ was identified as one of the MOST liberal biased papers in the "study". Yes. The WSJ- a Hotbed of Commie-socialism. The 2 gentlemen who undertook this UCLA survey are continuously funded by several of the more conservative, pro-corporate advocacy groups in Washington. There was nothing objectively scientific about their methodology, & it appeared to be preplanned to get the results they were looking for. (with some unwanted side effects) UCLA I assume, just did the compilation of the data, & did the math on the results. But the entire premise that the research was based on was just silly. Read about the fallout. It doesn't deserve to be sourced as a valid reference. Much as I like Fantasy literature, I try to make real world decisions based on Reality. I sometimes take "Media Matters " with a grain of salt, but they didn't have to "make up" anything about this study. It self destructs on its own. I'm just sayin' 71.6.81.62 (talk) 03:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)MBD71.6.81.62 (talk) 03:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
This section has become totally unprofessional. It agures with itself, abounds in bad grammar, rambles at great length, lacks focus. It needs a complete rewrite. Rick Norwood 13:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
You dont seem to be getting any objection Rick why dont you rewrite it? consensus reached surely? - Omricon
This section seems to lack a neutral POV in places:
Another example of language bias would be using the phrase "freedom fighters" instead of "insurgents or terrorists." The former phrase creates an image of a noble struggle, while the latter is more neutral and true.
I think it's especially inappropriate for an article discussing Media Bias to espouse the opinion that "terrorists" better describes insurgents than does "freedom fighters." Isn't that exactly the kind of bias this section is attempting to explain in the first place?
This page needs many corrections but they have the issues that need corrected locked down so they can not be corrected, more and more I am finding this out on many wikipedia pages as if some expert has ruled his words are perfect and need no correction are addition to help bring truth to the matter and I am find this happens on the liberal agenda pages as if they are trying to lock out any other perpective.
Someone recently reworded the section on "experimenter bias", and supported the rewording by adding one new reference and deleting two old references. I have tried to restore a NPOV wording.
The new reference, which I have left in place, says that the NAACP is a "left leaning" organization, which shows the difficulty of quantifying bias in an unbiased way. If racial integration is leftist, then certainly the media are leftist, since almost all American media are in favor of racial integration. Rick Norwood 13:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It looks like someone once again reworded the section on "experimenter bias". I returned some of the wording and included the deleted Media Matters study that firmly debunked the Timothy J. Groseclose of UCLA and economist Jeffrey D. Milyo study who planted the line of left-right far to the right (using the same logic as saying New York is in the West… because it is west of Maine). . http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003
It looks like someone once again reworded the section on "experimenter bias". I returned some of the wording and included the deleted Media Matters study that firmly debunked the Timothy J. Groseclose of UCLA and economist Jeffrey D. Milyo study who planted the line of left-right far to the right (using the same logic as saying New York is in the West… because it is west of Maine). . http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003 Bunkley 23:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)