The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Lady A. — Wug·a·po·des​ 01:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Lady Antebellum → ? – This Lady A band is county music only and will cause conflicts with Lady A (Blues Band) Anita White. 69.21.10.55 (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: The above is not the original wording of the move request. The original wording, to which the original "opposes" below refer, was:

Lady A → Lady A (County Band) – This Lady A band is county music only and will cause conflicts with Lady A (Blues Band) Anita White. 69.21.10.55 (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I've never heard of a move request completely changing its wording in this way, so as to make the "oppose"s below mean the opposite of what commenting editors intended.--Tenebrae (talk) 13:13, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMPORTANT NOTE TO CLOSER: The changing of the request will make it more difficult to determine consensus simply by looking at the votes, so more care must be taken when determining consensus. Since WP:!VOTE, I doubt this matters, because responses have elaborated on their policy arguments and most have been specific in their comment about the change, so intentions of responses are still clear and consensus can still be determined. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose until there is actually an article here for the blues singer Lady A. Also, the parenthetical words must be lowercase per MOS. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC) Clarification in light of the wording change of the move request: The article title should be "Lady A" unless there is another article titled "Lady A", in which case it should be "Lady A (country band)".--Tenebrae (talk) 13:18, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Anita White does have her own page. Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Revert the undiscussed move back to the long-standing title Lady Antebellum - Move was not prior discussed, and so revert to status quo and let proponents of a change take to formal discussion. -- Netoholic @ 14:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  This was done per your request. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Since this was reverted, my vote is keep at Lady Antebellum as too soon to know if the "Lady A" rename will stick, and because the long-standing title provides WP:NATURALDIS from the blues singer. -- Netoholic @ 02:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: Move to Lady Antebellum per WP:NATURAL against the band's nonsense, or to Lady A (country band) because there's already a Lady A (which should be called Lady A or Lady A (blues artist), whose independent notability predates this change by years. Like Netoholic said. According to the band's public relations statement and to RSes and to WP:BLUESKY common sense, it's not a new name at all but just a long-standing abbreviated stylization of "Lady Antebellum". The article lead could probably have always opened with "Lady Antebellum, stylized as Lady A, ..." and now it definitely can. — Smuckola(talk) 19:31, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nowhere do they say it's just a stylization of their longer name. They have been saying that they have dropped "antebellum" and adopted what was formerly a nickname: After much personal reflection, band discussion, prayer and many honest conversations with some of our closest Black friends and colleagues, we have decided to drop the word 'antebellum' from our name and move forward as Lady A, the nickname our fans gave us almost from the start. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 19:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • You just quoted them saying it, if you cut through just a bit of their equivocating word salad, as the RSes have also said. The nickname is a stylization. That's one major reason to have a nickname. The nickname is not "snookums", and it's not short for "Lady Ahole" as some IP editor recently asserted; it's a stylization of the full name "Lady Antebellum". They didn't change names and they didn't suddenly abbreviate; they promoted the longstanding obvious generic nickname (changed spelling) for "Lady Antebellum", just like "IBM" and "SGI". Anyway, on Wikipedia, renaming it is an unstable move, because it was not discussed, and as the RSes (mainly Rolling Stone, and everyone agreed) said the next day that Lady Antebellum is intending to potentially re-start the negotiation of its very name, with the real Lady A. — Smuckola(talk) 19:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, they never said "Our name is still Lady Antebellum, but you can call us by our nickname", they said "we have decided to drop the word 'antebellum' from our name". I don't know how they could've been any clearer. IBM isn't a good example, something like AT&T, BAE Systems, or CVS Pharmacy are better -- the names used to stand for something, but the acronym is now the official name and it officially stands for nothing (compare IBM's listing at the SEC to AT&T, BAE, or CVS).
      • On your seconds point, the negotiations with the real "Lady A." ended with the band keeping the name. From "Former Lady Antebellum will continue going by Lady A after apologizing to singer with the same name": The country group formerly known as Lady Antebellum will keep its new name, Lady A, after connecting with blues singer Anita White who has been using that same name for more than 20 years, the band's publicist Tyne Parrish confirmed Tuesday to USA TODAY. Both parties intend to continue using the name. --Ahecht (TALK
        PAGE) 20:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • They could have been clearer by not contradicting themselves about the nature of their name, in the sentence you quoted. I hear you, I don't mean to frustrate, and I'm learning from the discussion, but "clear" is not something these guys do. I'll just explain why I think in the calculus of Wikipedia's policy on naming, their dumb words should be demoted. They only now confessed their infamous constitutional mental unclarity, said they'd try to get less oblivious about life, and failed spectacularly at it by doubling down on the same mistake. As multiple RSes have said since at least 2011,[1] the band members are not an authority on what a thing is or isn't, including the meaning of their own band's name. They are not like us, and don't think or research before they act. Their word "drop" isn't literally "delete" or "change", but rather "demote" and doesn't matter. So their mush-mouthed equivocation in that quote would need to be cherrypicked, in order to be able to extract "we have a new name, which is not Antebellum" instead of "we're promoting our existing abbreviation of Antebellum". I am simply asserting the latter. It does not officially stand for nothing. And then we have RSes such as American Songwriter (cited in this article) saying that everybody obviously knows like the clear WP:BLUESKY that it's the same name, Lady Antebellum. In the quote, they said they got "Lady A" from "Lady Antebellum", which is "A == Antebellum == A", so I say that also makes it WP:NATURAL. It's just like the president of the United Daughters of the Confederacy officially stating that they do not represent the Confederacy, and that the Confederacy does not stand for slavery, which everyone knows is unequivocally false. Again, I don't mean to frustrate or belabor, so I'll leave it at that. Thank you. And I cited the RS you just gave, thanks. — Smuckola(talk) 21:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • What they call themselves is not a strong consideration to what we name articles (WP:OFFICIALNAME). Regardless of any arguments, this move was not discussed ahead of time and should be reverted. After some time, if there is still a desire to, proponents of a rename can bring current sources to a future RM discussion and make their case. -- Netoholic @ 19:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • And WP:OFFICIALNAME says Where an official name has changed we do give extra weight to secondary sources published after the change. --Ahecht (TALK
        PAGE) 20:39, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to Lady A On the move, unless Lady A (singer) is created, I see no need for unnecessary disambiguation (and even if it were created, this page would by far by the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). On the revert, WP:NAMECHANGES is pretty clear that when a subject of an articles chances its name, extra weight should be given to sources after the name change. A quick scan of the news shows all most reliable sources that do mention "Lday Antebellum" qualify it with words like "former" or "previously known as". The name "Lady A" is now being used on pretty much every music relailer, streaming service, and social media platform as well. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 19:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • • Concur with Ahecht. The band has completely dropped "Antebellum" from its name. Here is what the band itself says on its own verified Instagram page on June 11: "...we have decided to drop the word 'antebellum' from our name and move forward as Lady A, the nickname our fans gave us almost from the start. When we set out together almost 14 years ago, we named our band after the southern 'antebellum' style home where we took our first photos. ... But we are regretful and embarrassed to say that we did not take into account the associations that weigh down this word referring to the period of history before The Civil War, which includes slavery. We are deeply sorry for the hurt this has caused and for anyone who has felt unsafe, unseen or unvalued. ... So today, we speak up and make a change." I've gathered some good ol' boys have taken exception to the change and have vowed never to listen to the band's music again, but that's neither here nor there: The band itself says it has changed its name. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indeed, AllMusic.com not only has the band listed as Lady A, but even removed the old name from the biography.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I do think the move should've been discussed, but it does make sense due to WP:NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)sh[reply]
• Move to Lady A, as per reasons stated by Ahecht and other users. The band's name has been changed on all sources (iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, among others) so wouldn't it be incorrect to state that their name is stylized as Lady A? –NorthwestPassage ^talk 20:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for all the reasons stated, and the fact that the actual proposed new article name is misspelling "country". Plus why would we need the genre, unless you’re telling me there’s more than one Lady Antebellum band to have ever existed?--BaseFree (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Pinging @Tenebrae, Netoholic, Smuckola, Ortizesp, NorthwestPassage, and BaseFree: (apologies if I missed anyone). The article has been moved back to Lady Antebellum for the time being. In light of that, it would help to clarify which title (Lady Antebellum, Lady A, or Lady A (County Band)) your !votes are referring to. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 22:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Lady A, as per WP:NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Lady A. If the argument to move it back to Lady Antebellum is WP:COMMONNAME then it shouldn’t have been moved from Lady A at all. Moving to the actual proposed name has so many issues it’s laughable--BaseFree (talk) 22:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Lady A, as noted in my original comment before the move-request wording changed. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. This is ridiculous, with an illiterate person requesting the move. County or country band? And in any case, the recent move to Lady A was perfectly suitable given the band's June 11 announcement. Binksternet (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment And again, Lady A is Anita White's individual stage name. It’s not a band, therefore the genre would be irrelevant and the former Lady Antebellum would be "Lady A (band)", but Ms. White isn’t even notable for anything but an informal confrontation. There is no excuse for this article not to be at Lady A. Calling the band changing their own name "nonsense" is incredibly insulting and condescending to anyone who reads it--BaseFree (talk) 23:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment FYI, she has had a band for 18 years in the past named "Lady A & the Baby Blues Funk", which is why her website domain is ladyababyblues.com, and she obviously always has a band regardless of the billing name. She was always independently notable, as has been seen for some days on the article Anita White, about a quarter of which is a brief summary of professional reception, and that's only what's sourced online and not even what's in print yet. Just to clarify for everyone. — Smuckola(talk) 01:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Move back to Lady A, per reasons stated by User:Ahecht and others above. User:NorthwestPassage put it well: "The band's name has been changed on all sources (iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, among others) so wouldn't it be incorrect to state that their name is stylized as Lady A?" Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:15, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Close as moot - the undiscussed move has been reverted and the format of this RM no longer applies. I suggest proponents of a move wait a while until the current variability in the band's name settles down. -- Netoholic @ 01:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I've fixed the malformed format of the request, making the target a name to be decided by the discussion. I don't think resetting the clock on this is a good idea, but it should run for at least a full week. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:50, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not a "fix" because now prior votes which referred to the original RM request are going to be read incorrectly. Far better to fully close as moot and let proponents start fresh with a clear request. -- Netoholic @ 03:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I think everyone has made their position clear. Ideally this should be closed by an experienced administrator rather than an inexperienced non-admin page mover. Assuming that the closing admin reads all the comments, they will read this. The page was boldly moved to Lady A. It was then moved back after your request. But, while it was sitting on the Lady A title it was essentially proposed to move to Lady A (country band) with the rationale that between this group and Anita White there is no primary topic for "Lady A". Obviously this cannot be hamfistedly closed simply by counting "support" and "oppose" votes; closing administrators are expected to weight the !votes based on their support by policies and guidelines. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Except there’s still no need for "country" in "(country band)" because Anita White is not a band. She is an individual. Whoever accompanies White in her performances is not Lady A. Only she is. Therefore, if it were to move to any parenthetical it would be "(band)".--BaseFree (talk) 04:07, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Why should the discussion close? What is moot about the points being made? Why should the proponents of the move wait “a while” before discussing again? How much is a while? Undiscussed moves happen every day. What you did was sabotage the vote and now you’re saying “My work is done”. Undiscussed moves happen all the time. You have literally addressed none of the points being made when 1) the case for "Lady A" has not properly been rebutted and there is an obvious consensus that it should’ve remained at "Lady A". Lady A is their name. Not Lady Antebellum. Not anymore. Full stop.--BaseFree (talk) 03:15, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • No one has been properly afforded the chance to make the case for "Lady Antebellum" because this move request was started based on a totally different basis. Its a mess of an RM, and that's not a coincidence since there is a frantic rush to change the long-standing title based on an exceptionally recent "change". The band literally met with the original "Lady A" today (June 16) for the first time to discuss this. There may or may not be a legal challenge or possibly some other completely different resolution. Rushing leads to sloppiness - this RM is a prime example of that. -- Netoholic @ 04:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Once again you’re not addressing a single point.--BaseFree (talk) 04:30, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • This RM is one day old. You have another six days (at least) to make your case for keeping it at the current title which is "Lady Antebellum". There is no frantic rush now. If there is no consensus on a new title then the article will keep the current title. Please do share any reliably-sourced news reports you have of this group meeting with Anita White. – wbm1058 (talk) 09:53, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Procedurally close this request as malformed and wait a week or so for the dust to settle. Remember, there is no deadline. Calidum 14:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Lady A per all the arguments on policy here. Most of the oppose votes seem to be in support of this as well, but the move request was completely edited and now this is a mess. But reading the policy-based reasoning of the !votes makes clear what people's opinion are, and so I see no reason for some kind of "procedural close". Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and there is no need to jump through hoops again for no reason, and my opinion is that there is indeed no reason because the !votes justified their reasoning so their intentions can clearly be determined.

My opinion on this matter, and policy based reasoning, can be seen in full here, which I hope the closer will consider. Ultimately, per WP:NAMECHANGES Lady A is the name we should be using, and to a lesser extent, WP:R#ASTONISH and the graph of views and Google interest clearly show a dab page as being inappropriate. But WP:NAMECHANGES is the ultimate relevant policy here, and it is not ambiguous. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Following is the page history of Lady A:

• at 14:04, 24 February 2008 George cowie created a redirect to Lady Amherst's Pheasant
• at 02:24, 15 August 2012 Paul Erik converted to a disambiguation page
• at 03:44, 18 July 2017 Champion converted to redirect to Lady Antebellum

So we have evidence that Lady Antebellum has been alternatively known as Lady A at least since August 2012. – wbm1058 (talk) 09:53, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to Lady A. The media is consistently referring to the band as Lady A, and the name has been changed in all large providers of online music, including on the cover of the band's latest single. "Lady Antebellum" should be kept as a redirect. If the article Anita White is renamed to something like "Lady A (singer)", the article on the band can still be kept simply as "Lady A", with the disambiguation sentence at the top. It's not necessary to add parentheses to both articles, see for example Turkey and turkey (bird). The band is enormously more known than the singer, who didn't have a Wikipedia article before the name dispute. Heitordp (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: The procedural close killed all the momentum of the discussion, and yet now the Lady A redirect is under deletion discussion for no reason--BaseFree (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  BaseFree, it hasn't been procedurally closed. That was a vote from a user. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose for now per [2] - there's ongoing controversy around this, we should retain the status quo. SportingFlyer T·C 19:58, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: One person speaking out didn’t stop the name change. Their name is still Lady A and regardless of Ms. White's notability they're still Lady A. A profile can be done on a deli owner who has run it for 50 years, picked up by numerous reliable sources, but that doesn’t make them Wikipedia-notable.--BaseFree (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I missed this, which seems like an amicable conclusion is possible. However, searching for "Lady A" in reliable sources just brings up the controversy at the moment. Support "Lady A (country band)" for now. SportingFlyer T·C 20:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  SportingFlyer, the articles that discuss the controversy, which has brought the band into further media attention, do indeed discuss the controversy. But that isn't the only thing sources discuss, and reliable sources that discuss other matters now refer to the band as Lady A. Many RS have decided to only cover the name change and the controversy, like BBC and The Guardian. Spotify has even renamed the band to "Lady A", a Google search for "lady antebellum" shows a "Lady A" infobox. The controversy is a separate matter, but their usage of the name has not changed.

  It isn't Wikipedia's call to decide what is controversial, whether the name change is appropriate, whether the name change is racist, or to theorise on the legal outcome of the name change, as people have done on this discussion, on the previous discussion, and on the AfD. We are not lawyers, and we do not write news articles. Policy is clear, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:R#ASTONISH in particular. We should use the name "Lady A", as all reliable sources do, unless and until the reliable sources decide to change what to call them. We are not here to make a political statement. We're just causing unnecessary confusion and inconsistency, as is clearly visible in the mess that is the view graphs for each of the 3 associated pages. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• In other words, a controversy does not function as a stay or injunction on renaming Wikipedia pages--BaseFree (talk) 22:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I changed my vote, what are you going on about? My initial vote was predicated on the fact my initial search only brought up articles regarding the controversy, which has now been at least partially resolved. I see no reason not to rename it now, but I would add a disambiguator in the title. SportingFlyer T·C 22:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @SportingFlyer: what do you think of the WP:NATURALDIS at keeping this at the long-standing title? -- Netoholic @ 02:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I mean, my preference would be for this to remain status quo for at least a little bit longer, and then move it over to a disambiguated title if things stick. I don't really have a problem if it's properly disambiguated. The name change has been pretty swift and given the reasoning it doesn't make sense to leave it at the old title long-term. It also doesn't make sense to switch it over immediately given the nature of the controversy, which is still ongoing [3]. I also don't think it makes sense that this is the primary topic yet just because it's a the popular group. SportingFlyer T·C 05:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Editors have come to a consensus that this is the primary topic. (non-admin closure)  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 19:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Lady A → Lady A (band) – Per The Seattle Times, a trademark infringement lawsuit was filed by Anita White in September over the use of the name Lady A. The lawsuit documents (which are linked to from the Seattle Times article) specifically mention that she has been performing under that name for over 25 years. Until this matter is settled in court, we should refer to her as Lady A and keep this page as Lady Antebellum or Lady A (band). I realize the band is far more well known than the Seattle artist, but she had the name first. Oldiesmann (talk) 03:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC [4]. Before the controversy, White's notability was limited as very few sources discussed her music. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 03:42, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Conscientious proposal, but a textbook case of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Lawsuits and whoever was first aren't a titling metric. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:17, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Nohomersryan: I hope you don't mind my nitpicking, but RIGHTGREATWRONGS is a part of WP:TE (explanatory supplement to disruptive editing). It's probably best not to link to TE if you want to avoid misunderstandings. Politrukki (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Very unfortunate for Madam White, but this is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Politrukki (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong support, as per WP:BANDDAB naming convention guideline:

*Use "(band)" when the musical ensemble members perform by playing musical instruments, for example Garbage (band) or Town & Country (band)

If the original mover had been following the guideline, it would have been moved to Lady A (band) in the first place & there would be no need for this discussion. Peaceray (talk) 03:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This only applies if it needs disambiguation. If it's the primary topic, as here, then it doesn't. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support Happypillsjr ✉ 01:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.