* 7 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 6 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 5 continents: Eurasia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 4 continents: Africa-Eurasia, America, Antarctica, and Australia.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 23:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Java → Java (island) — Java clearly is a very ambiguous proper noun. I don't believe we should make assumptions as to which is the most popular Java, or the most relevant and thus think that Java should be moved to Java (island) and Java should point to Java (disambiguation). Dreddlox 00:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• NOTE - before you add a comment, stop, think and look above - this has happened before, twice at least, the user here makes no acknowledgement of previous discussions - do you really need to add your bit now?

Reading previous discussions might help you understand the issues and save space and time on this issue SatuSuro 03:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Comment - we have been through this a few times before, but it has consistantly been rather split, lets give it another go --T-rex 02:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Java is too commonly known as too many things. I don't believe the island to hold much notability compared to coffee or the programming language, thus an ambiguation page for Java seems best. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose

• Notability: Home to 130million people world's most populated island, (on its own it would be the 9th largest country in the world) and it is the economic and political heart of the world's fourth biggest country. Being their home, and ethnic identity, it is very notable to the Javanese and other ethnic groups. There is even a wikipedia Javanese language version in addition to Indonesian [3] Remember, the concept of Java is more than just an island within another country - like say Hawaii (or Alaska, kinda like an island). It is very distinct chracteristc within itself - as do most Indonesian islands. Think of Indonesia more like Europe and Java as a country in Europe, that's how distinct it is.
• I doubt the IT meaning has that deep and broad notability with that many people - i suggest notability is reserved for IT "geeks", not a whole people. Wikiepedia should have be aimed at BROADER audience than just IT geeks. Off the internet, say Java and people almost always think of the island At least they do in Europe, Asia and Australia. Apparently in the US though they think of (Javan) coffee - so I am told. -i really think we should cater for broader audiences, who wants wikipedia just to be tailored for minority die-hard IT techs? See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias#The_origins_of_bias.
• Java island has been populated for thosands of years, and is likely to be so for even longer - how about Java in the IT sense? I think we know that in comparison it is more of a temporary thing.
• Wikipedia Direct links: Java the island has 402 pages linking directly to it and 537 indirectly. Sun's Java (Sun) has on the other hand 107 direct links and 8 indirect.
• Btw, the coffee reference is hilarious - why do you think it is called Java coffee? lol. I dont think it is coincidence that Java is full of coffee plantations. Etymology: Java island came first, after which the coffee was named (first by Javanese "Kopi Jawa", and later by Americans), then i suspect the IT sense takes after coffee. I have only ever heard Americans refer to coffee with the term.
• I will add more if i think of more.
• --Merbabu 07:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Oppose. It's inconceivable that a programming language called "California", no matter how popular it became, would ever displace the US State from its primacy in Wikipedia. Java has at least twice the population of California. The fact that lots of poorly educated people have never heard of Java is something Wikipedia should be helping to fix, not to reinforce. -- Danny Yee 08:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compare python, ruby, and c. Is anyone seriously suggesting that a particular group of snakes, a kind of gemstone, or even a letter of the Roman alphabet is even close in importance to an island with 120 million inhabitants? -- Danny Yee 03:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose of course. I agree with the comments of above. Gryffindor 08:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. This is getting repetitious - cannot something or somebody put the cat out and leave it out for once and all? SatuSuro 11:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, cf. previous discussions, Brz7 00:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose When searching for the island of Java one would write "Java", where as when in search of the language Java one would write "Language Java", "Java script" or some other similar qualifier. Additionally Java (Island) doesnt follow any accepted naming conventions currently in use, the more correct naming suggestion would be "Java, Indonesia". Even if one is confused by that fact that Java can have alternative unrelated articles, the first sentence clarifies and links to the DAB and the language. As for the importance the java language like most computer langauges will have life of maybe optomistically another 10 years and then pass back into insignificance, where as Java the place, short of a major catastropic event (even that would warrant the prominant article naming anyway) is still going to be there for thousands of more years. Gnangarra 14:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Actually, no. go to any search engine and give it a try. First 20 pages on google give you nothing on the island. Granted this is a meaningless fact that has little to nothing to do with the page move request, but I felt the need to point out that you are baseing your argument on complete lies --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Complete lies? Thus you would be betting the programming language is going to out live the Island in notabilty (going for the moment on the false assumption it is more notable now)? Can I ask, how long does the programming language have?--Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Complete lies as in not true, as for your second point, the programing language will outlast wikipedia --T-rex 00:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  And the island won't? You know that was not my point. But as you avoided it, may i assume that you agree with it? Hopefully someone else can answer my question on the likely notable lifespan of the programming language.--Merbabu 00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  I did not think it was nessiccary to note that the island was unlikly to spontaniously vanish within the near future. I should point out though that the future does not mater, it is only the present that we need to judge, the future can be taken care of in the future --T-rex 03:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  You accuse me of lies, yet you dont despute anthing that I said, you offer no verifiable source to support your accusations. If you have a constructive POV then present it but please dont use personal attacks to the opinions of myself or others. Gnangarra 04:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  That was in reference to your comments about people searching --T-rex 04:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose While this may seem an obvious move to someone who has worked with the Java programming language (of which I am one), it doesn't make sense for a general interest encyclopedia. With over 100 million people in Java (part of the 220 million in Indonesia) and, as of 2003, 3 million Java developers world-wide, I think that it's logical to infer that more people primarily associate Java with the island than the programming language. Further, the island has substantial historical claim to primacy, and likely will continue to in the future, when Java goes the way of COBOL. So far as disambiguation goes, I like the link at the top of the page. To me it's immediately obvious how to navigate to the programming language topic. ScottW 14:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support, in the case of several likely and very common meanings for the same term, the disambiguation page should be at that name. Mercury, for instance, does not point to the Greek god after whom all of the meanings are named. Kusma (討論) 14:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that many pages link to Java that intend to link to the programming language. It is trivial to fix all the links if Java is a disambiguation page, but annoying to do so if Java points to one of the specific meanings. Why send people looking for the programming language (very many) through the page about the (completely unrelated) island? That's what disambiguation is for, just as with Georgia, where the non-decision which Georgia is more "important" helps to avoid broken links. Kusma (討論) 14:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are about 500 links to the unqualified name. A 10% random sample showed about 1/3 linking to the programming language and 2/3 to the island. --Polaron | Talk 14:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment That shows a problem with people's linking skills. Maybe they should check what they are linking first - maybe they cannot see the "Preview" button next to the "Save" button. This is an encyclopedia that should focus on a wide readership and reflect the broad realities of the wider world and its historically context, not one that has to be propped up with disability measures for lazy and ignorant editors.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Further comment - my own quick glance at the link page [4] shows that most linked to the IT meaning are article talk pages which as we all know have a much lower level of quality. --Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Further comment still Ignoring the bad links on talk pages (which is the vast majority) i have now fixed those bad links within articles, there wasn't too many - see my contribs. While i realise that just sticking "Java (programming language)" in place of "Java" is not always completely accurate, no-one can argue that it is not better to at least have the link in the right area. Hoepfully Java programmers are not as careless as some editors have been. ;-) --Merbabu 01:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Many Wikipedia editors are well-versed in computer technology and I expect that people who associate "Java" with the programming language are overrepresented here. --Polaron | Talk 14:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commnet Although amongst editors it might have a higher proportion of IT "geeks" than the rest of society, as for its readers is Wikipedia intended to have a narrow IT readership or broader focus that reflects the "real world"? I suggest the latter.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - the island may be the most common use, but it is not signifacntly more important then the other uses, i recal a disambiguation page was chosen to solve a simmilar dilema at Syracuse --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • How is an island with a population of 120 million not "more significant than the other uses"? For anyone outside IT, this is just a no-brainer, and we're not writing an encyclopedia for the <1% of the population that has anything to do with programming. (I am a system administrator supporting Java server applications myself.) With Syracuse, there were two large cities involved, that's a completely different case. -- Danny Yee 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • first there is way more on that disambig page then just the tech uses. Despite what you have said I did say it is more significant than the other uses, it is not, as I pointed out not signifacntly more important then the other uses. We do have disambig pages on wikipedia for a reason --T-rex 00:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I hardly consider "Java" as coffee "way more". Keep in mind that that is a usage that only seems prevalent within the United States - no one in Australia, for example, will think of coffee when you say "Java". -- Danny Yee 02:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • And the programing language is mentioned at the top of Java for a reason too, interestingly though the reverse is not true. --Merbabu 00:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to Java, Indonesia. It is not clear that the island is the most common usage. Given that the programming language and the island are likely of equal note, the dab page should be moved here. Vegaswikian 00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • How can any programming language be "of equal note" to an island with 120 million inhabitants? I asked above how popular would a programming language called "California" have to be to displace the US state - and the answer is that it simply wouldn't happen. More people probably live in Java than have ever even heard of the other uses of the word. Javanese are probably massively underrepresented among Wikipedia editors, but that's a problem that we need to fix. -- Danny Yee 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • In line with Danny's comments, can i suggest that some may be confusing notability amongst editors (no doubt a significantly higher proportion of IT-centred people than the wider community) with notability among readers. I think this raises important questions over just who wikipedia as a resource should be directed too. Personally, I think a focus on the broader world, not an IT-focussed resource, is far more important - it's what brings me to wikipedia anyway. Perhaps more of an effort towards a worldwide view is needed. --Merbabu 04:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe that those close to Indonesia will think of the island. The farther away you go, the more likely another use will prevail. Yes, the programming language might be considered geeky, but many users now about it because they run into it when they need to get some programs to run. Of course we should then add in the use of Java for coffee. And for some people it may only mean Java, South Dakota. So while it is a large island, the question is the primary use. It is very unclear here so the dab should prevail. Vegaswikian 00:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Herein lies the contention while there are more people that identify Java the island, In fact over half the worlds population lives closer to Java than to America. The arguements being presented for the move are only enforcing the systemic bias, in the over all population the Island Java is significantly more notiable but within the narrow field of WP editors there is a disproportionate number of people who see the language as being equally or more significant because they obtain financial reward from it. Gnangarra 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Could Java language prominance over the Island, really be an endourse of Sun Microsystems product by Wikipedia. Gnangarra 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • Vegaswikian, perhaps what you mean is, as you get closer to the US, Java (Indonesia) is less well know (like anything else non-US) It is not about usage - it is about notability. As you say, this would make a town of 197 people who relatively no one has heard of, be of equal note to what would be in its own right the 9th largest country in the world - we both know this is rubbish. Perhaps the island is not well known in the US but it certainly is throughout east Asia (which is many times bigger than USA), and also in Australia and Europe. But the fact that it is not well known in the US is no reason for wikipedia to reflect such ignorance (the Americans do many things exceptionally well - knowledge of the outside world is not one of them). But, even then, it is not about how well known it is. It is about significance. You say "many users running into it (Java Prog Language) when they need to some programs to run" - this is hardly significant in comparison to what is not just an island which is the political and economic heart of the world's 4th largest nation. It's not just another state say in the US or AUstralian meaning of the term, but as is the case in Indonesia, it is ethnically, historically and economically very different to its neighbouring states - indeed it is like another country. Rather than a country and a state, think of Indonesia like the European Union, and Java is like a country within that. It's is also an identity. As for much of Indonesia (and Europe) people are prone to identify as Javanese before they identify as Indonesian.

There is already a disambig page listing all your concerns which is linked from the very top of the Java page. The programming language even gets its own mention and link from the top there too. Given the overwhelming higher level of significance of the island historically, economically, geographically this is more than fair covereage. Maybe you should check out Sydney, python, ruby, c and Bengal. They all have DAB pages - but not directs. --Merbabu 01:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Oppose - I cannot emphisize more on this. Basically people have expressed the same opinion as mine, that the island of Java is far more popular and important, thus cannot be treated like a programming language. People who support the idea might want to read the article carefully first, and understand the importance of the island. Imoeng 07:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per User talk:Polaron and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Lethiere 08:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Very strong oppose - I don't believe the people who requested the move. This is not a Programming Language Encyclopaedia!! — Indon (reply) — 10:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose. Wikipedia is not a geek-only encyclopedia. Our international scope and goals should affect our thoughts about notability and importance, not the other way round. — mark ✎ 12:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has to do with more than just notability and importance. The element Mercury is a lot more important than the Roman god or the planet, but it still doesn't get to occupy the spot Mercury alone. Georgia (country) is a country, but does not get to occupy the spot Georgia because the (less important, less notable) US state of Georgia (U.S. state) exists and is another likely search and link target. Kusma (討論) 13:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think python, ruby, c and Bengal are better comparisons here. -- Danny Yee 13:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • If "Georgia" was a state not in the USA but in say Australia (or Indonesia for that matter), I would bet my house that "Georgia" would link direct to the country. Just because Wikipedia handles the name "Georgia" incorrectly, does not mean that it should also do the same for "Java". There are some editors out there who don't want wikipedia to have just an American and IT focus to it. --Merbabu 13:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Major stupidity. BTW this page was moved here quite rightly in a vote a few months ago. Jooler 14:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose. There is simply no comparing the importance of a massively populated landmass to something as ephemeral as a programming language. Robotman1974 03:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, per previous RM attempts.--cjllw | TALK 06:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Do what? Java is coffee. —  AjaxSmack  08:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • lol - people need to release that the introduction of widespread and vast coffee plantations on Java by the Javanese and the colonial Dutch before them, were simply a cynical marketing attempt to cash in on the American word for coffee. ;-) --Merbabu 08:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • :-) Though I thank for your opposition, but the reason makes me smile. — Indon (reply) — 09:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Markussep 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Take a look at Spain, Wales, Scotland, Bali, Brazil, Peru, Hawaii, Holland for just a few examples of coutries where the main page is about the country with a link at the top to the disambiguation page. We don't make exceptions for Bali programming language and Brazil (operating system), nor should we for Java (programming language). Brazil Rendering System was used on films which have been seen by tens (hundreds?) of millions (eg, Star Wars III) but we still make Brazil's country page the main page because that's what all the others are named after.--Bwmodular 09:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Wikipedians are generally just a little biased toward IT, aren't we, folks? The other uses of "Java" are ones that specifically pertain to computer programmers and coffee afficianados. There is a huge difference in the scope of notability between an island of 124 million people and a programming language and coffee variety. Feeeshboy 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - I'm pretty sure that if I went out into the street here (Wales) and asked random passers-by "What is Java?", at least 9 out of 10 would reply "an island". If somebody said "a programming language", I would know I'd found a geek.Rhion 09:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Add any additional comments:

• Please see discussion for two previous requested moves at Talk:Java (disambiguation). older ≠ wiser 01:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• There has been alot of discussion on this preiviously as older ≠ wiser mentions. I seriously doubt that a new consensus can be formed and that it can be clear, given the history. Eluchil404 06:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• I've just seen that the most recent debate over this was in June. Are there not policies about how often it happens? If one "side" doesn't get their way, what is stopping them from re-proposing say next week? --Merbabu 08:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of any policy or guide-line with respect to move requests. As with all processes thw wikipedia community has a small tolerance for sequential requests as they are seen as attempts to game to system. If less than a few months have passed I would expect many people to oppose the proposal on procedural grounds as too soon regardless of the merits. Under that understanding this proposal is not invalid on its face, but I do question its chances of succeeding given the (fairly) recent consensus in the opposite direction. Eluchil404 11:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• There should be a box at the tope of the talk page with a 'Danger' or 'Warning' sign that the whole process of trying to impose narrow world views (in the case of those who havent any sense of notability of the island) should be dissalowed from proposing yet another time wasting debate on the disambig or shifting issue. Merbabu's point will be completely and utterly lost unless someone with a good knowledge of wikipedia mechanics finds the right policy page where this gets nailed for once and for all, and dosnt get put up by another individual with limited geographic knowledge beyond their own back yard next week SatuSuro 11:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  'Warning', someone may disagree with SatuSuro's views. Any such behavior could ruin wikipedia, and quite possibly bring on the end of the world --T-rex 15:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Hey someone with a sense of humour with a PA at the same time! SatuSuro 10:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe this is the malicious action of a troll, sockpuppet or a previously blocked person for their understanding of wikipedia policy, formatting enable a person with no previous edit history (User contribs) to create this section and nominate it at Wikipedia:Requested moves within a 3 minute time period. in the 6 hours sinced the account was created no other edits have occured. Gnangarra 14:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Just a comment: if there are more programmers who use the language every day than residents of the island, would that support a change? What's the test here? It seems to me to be very difficult to tell which is more common usage, but I don't accept that the argument that people live there necessarily and absolutley grants one usage primacy over another. If the population were not 120 million but, say, 10 thousand, would that change things? Croctotheface 19:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• response what would happen if the language was call Guam Gnangarra 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• If it were even close, I would support the move. There is no hard and fast rule here. If something is the most common use BY FAR, then it should not need parenthetical treatment. If it's unclear, then disambig is needed, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the number of java programmers or the importance of java coffee compares at all with the island and its population. Feeeshboy 00:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.