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I added this to the paragraph Medical Use:
=== Covid-19 === Vishwajit Rane, Minister of Health of the Government of the State of Goa, India, announced on May 10, 2021, the Government's decision to administer Ivermectin 12 mg, for five days, to all above 18 as a prophylaxis treatment against Covid-19[1].
but user:Alexbrn reverted 6 minutes later with comment “fringe/pseudoscience without context, failing WP:GEVAL”
I am okay with the usefulness for someone else to add context in order to avoid WP:GEVAL, but not with the plain revert of this information about an official medical use of Ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19, be it fringe/pseudoscience or not. It is official in one State. Would someone else transform this information in a acceptable way for all?
Ceveris (talk) 09:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn please next time notify other editors when you solicit feedback at the Fringe_theories dashboard. Alaexis¿question? 08:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn You misrepresent WP:UNDUE. Fact that ivermectin is, since April 28, 2021, part of the treatment proposed by Indian health authorities for mild/asymptotic covid-19 patients is no “views of tiny minorities”, whose representation is the topic of WP:UNDUE. It is not a “view”. It is a fact. The “view” that ivermectin is efficient as a treatment for Covid-19, although shared by more than “a tiny minority”, is only presented by Wikipedia as “misinformation”. Ceveris (talk) 08:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Ftrebien, thanks for improving the article and incorporating the information about India. Alaexis¿question? 20:13, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
The guidelines suggest further that the doctor consider ivermectin tablets, which is accurate, and the highlighted parts are important to ensure neutrality. We cannot write that the guidelines recommend it, or that the doctor should prescribe it. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:44, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Came to this talk page to say that the sections on "misinformation and covid" and "research on covid" are written in a way that violates NPOV. Including the very title of the misinfo section. Can it pls be rewritten in a way that highlights controversy without taking a position, and in fact uses words like "controversy" and "disagreement" instead of "misinformation"? I've long appreciated Wikipedia's entries on biochemistry, drugs, etc. and really don't like seeing them become politicized. Frankly, that begins with avoiding terms like "misinformation" and "conspiracy theory". 104.247.238.179 (talk) 19:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Yesterday an addition to the COVID-19 research section was proposed to include the NIH ACTIV-6 trial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ivermectin#NIH_Running_Phase_III_Trial_of_Ivermectin:_ACTIV-6 this was added to the main article.
Previous content: "To resolve uncertainties from previous small or poor quality studies, a large scale trial being run by Oxford University, named PRINCIPLE, began recruiting test subjects in June 2021." https://web.archive.org/web/20210624211205/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin#COVID-19
Current content: "To resolve uncertainties from previous small or poor-quality studies, as of June 2021 large scale trials were underway in the United States and United Kingdom."
If I go to "View history" for the article no revisions show up on the 27th of June, and previous revisions for the page, even as far back as the 22nd, show the new version of the content: see version from June 22nd: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivermectin&oldid=1029907834 Why is Wikipedia's revision history inconsistent with the archived versions, implying a new edit has been part of the page all along? Caprilyc (talk) 12:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Malaysia recently started studying the use of IVM for COVID treatment. The Philippines did something similar back in April. For your consideration:
-SmolBrane (talk) 05:28, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Invermectin has been shown to be affective against Covid 19. Doctors in the field have used it and reported success. Watch Kory Pierre interview with Bert Weinstein on You Tube. Kory Pierre is no quack, he is a leading physician in treating Covid 19. Also Australian Doctors back the use of Invermectin in treating Covid 19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.143.179.116 (talk • contribs) 09:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
My Friend’s uncle in India was saved from severe hospitalized Covid by Ivermectin prescription. Anyone who denies Ivermectin as an effective treatment for Covid 19, is either looking at old facts or blind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.143.179.120 (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
As reported by PBS, Merck is developing a novel drug for treating Covid. From the linked article:
Merck's position creates a potential conflict of interest that means proper context needs to be provided when citing their statement on ivermectin. Given that Merck would stand to make far more money through a novel treatment than they would on a generic. The danger with the current text of the article is that it veers from a WP:NPOV and adopts Merck's framing of ivermectin's effectiveness (or lack thereof) without fully disclosing what incentives they may have had to make that statement.
I propose including additional text, using the neutral language provided by WP:RS PBS in the above linked story as a reference. 2600:1700:7CC0:4770:1905:B5EA:593B:F994 (talk) 19:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
In order to erase a link in this article to the neutral NIH recommendation about Ivermectin telling “There are insufficient data for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19” for this article, Alexbrn says: “Please don't bring press releases to Wikipedia, they are nearly always useless for the encyclopedia.
And here, he battles to keep as only source about Merck's position about Ivermectin, its own press release, and refuses a respected secondary source contextualizing Merck's position.
This not coherent and not NPOV. Ceveris (talk) 09:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Hob Gadling: “That does not make sense in this universe or any parallel ones I know,” “your contorted ideas”, “Go away, you are not here to build an encyclopedia” :these are blatant personal attacks. Does not respect Wikipedia's policy WP:NOPA. Does not respect also WP:OWN: “No one, no matter how skilled, or how high-standing in the community, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular article.” Ceveris (talk) 10:16, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
these are blatant personal attacksBullshit bullshit bullshit. These are very, very blatant attacks on the IP's abysmal reasoning, and just as blatantly not on their person. Go read WP:PA, and while you are at it, Argumentum ad hominem. And neither does it have anything to do with ownership of articles. Bad reasoning can and must be criticized and debunked as bad reasoning. That "ownership" nonsense is just a red herring. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:40, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
These are very, very blatant attacks on the IP's abysmal reasoningWhat aspect of my reasoning is abysmal exactly? There is a whole lot of nonsense argument being falsely attributed to me that is not close to accurate (RE: conspiracy theorizing as to whether Merck is intentionally prolonging the pandemic knowing of Ivermectin's effectiveness, etc). If you are going to claim my reasoning is abysmal please specify which part of my argument you are specifically talking about and I can respond appropriately. To once again redirect the discussion to the substance of the proposal, (1) is simply restating the claim of an interested party with no context appropriate RE WP:NPOV, and (2) is the statement even relevant or appropriately included given that WP:MEDRS was given as a reason not to include PBS's report (surely Merck does not fulfill the same criteria).2600:1700:7CC0:4770:9809:7234:5739:83B1 (talk) 22:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
falsely attributed to meSo you are the same person as some of the other IPs posting here. We cannot really tell, you see, unless you tell us. If you used an account, it would be easier to answer your questions about what is bad about what you said - we quite literally do not know what you said. I am not interested in discussing someone who makes it intentionally difficult. My last contribution was just a response to Ceveris' bullshit and does not concern you. But maybe Ceveris is also you? --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:35, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Again, the PBS article points to a meta-analysis published in a journal that does not score well in SCImago at the time of publication. Simple check to avoid unnecessary headaches. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 20:19, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
The existence of a conflict of interest does not constitute medical information and thus doesn't require MEDRS. Alaexis¿question? 14:59, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The insinuation of a conspiracy [...] requires RSBeyond the point made by User:Alaexis RE WP:BLPGROUP which I believe is correct, my proposal is to add context based on wording provided by WP:RS PBS. I believe that fulfills the criteria you set forth. 2600:1700:7CC0:4770:897E:7CCD:13A6:E14A (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Good thing someone read the article paying attentionsounds like WP:OR to me 2600:1700:7CC0:4770:897E:7CCD:13A6:E14A (talk) 06:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
(I saw the discussion at “crusades”, above, but there appears to be a broken archive tag there, so I'm starting a new section). We currently have a statement on misinformation, and a statement that no evidence exists for treatment or prevention, but we do not mention that many trials have occurred or are still in progress. This misleads the reader into thinking that no application is being investigated. The lede should more accurately reflect the body of the article and include such a statement, such as:
-SmolBrane (talk) 23:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I suggest you give the WP:SECTIONHEADINGOWN part of WP:TALKO a more careful read. You do not own this section, we all do, together. It is appropriate for others besides the section creator to edit section headings. See also this relevant quote: "Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless of how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better heading is appropriate, e.g., one more accurately describing the content of the discussion or the issue discussed, less one-sided, more appropriate for accessibility reasons, etc.
"--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 13:21, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request to Ivermectin has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The claim that there is no evidence of Ivermectin being effective as prophylaxis and treatment for COVID-19 is false. Ivermectin has shown efficacy in fighting viruses of multiple types in vitro and in vivo. There are multiple peer reviewed observational and RCT studies, as well as review papers discussing this. I suggest you remove this false statement about Ivermectin and COVID-19 entirely. And replace it with a more accurate articulation describing that it is highly disputed amongst scientists and practitioners and there is not a consensus regarding its efficacy in the case of preventing and treating COVID-19. Kwall926 (talk) 02:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Laboratory studies found that ivermectin could block replication of SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19), but at much higher ivermectin concentrations than those achieved with the currently authorised doses.Already in the first paragraph of Ivermectin#COVID-19.
Results from clinical studies were varied, with some studies showing no benefit and others reporting a potential benefit. Most studies EMA reviewed were small and had additional limitations, including different dosing regimens and use of concomitant medications.[1]
The NIH in February said that some clinical studies showed no benefits or worsening of disease after ivermectin use; other studies suggested using ivermectin had some benefits. "However, most of these studies had incomplete information and significant methodological limitations, which make it difficult to exclude common causes of bias," the NIH said.[2]
I'm going to remove the dispute tag on this, because now we are quibbling about one specific phrase. I get why it's contentious to some editors, but I believe the consensus is in favor of the current language, not only based on what's been said above, but also based on what has been said several times before on this talk page about this exact question. A dispute about a single phrase that is already arguing between "This is not supported by the evidence" and "there is no evidence to support" is truly not enough for a disputed tag in my humble opinion. If we can get a consensus on this talk page (or elsewhere) that this is actually disputed in credible articles published in journals worth reading (which this one is not), then I will personally add the tag back.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 15:49, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
References
I intend to post some relevant articles here:
This Studie was Published in American Journal of Therapeutics: June 17, 2021 - Volume Publish Ahead of Print[1] The Study is downloadable for Free. It finds an Average reduction in death of 62% with moderate-certainty evidence and an Average reduction of infection when used as a profilactic of 86% with low-certainty evidence (due to study design limitations and few included trials)
Here is a video by Dr John Campbell introducing the findings [2]
Please excuse my "messy" talkpoint, but i am rather new to wiki-editing.
Please review this Information for acceptance in the main article.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The COVID-19 section does not provide a balanced view of Ivermectin's efficacy when used as a treatment for sars-cov-2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34145166/ states "Conclusions: Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."
I would request the conclusion of the above meta-analysis is sighted and included in this section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brnn8r (talk • contribs) 06:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Conclusions: "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."--193.152.127.23 (talk) 21:47, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
regions where Ivermectin is used have better Covid outcomesis, you would have to be familiar with the unreliability of that method. Gorski explains further in the other article he links: [3], starting with "But let’s get back to what this trial really is". Also, you did not sign your badly indented contribution. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:14, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
"Lab leak" cruft
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Sorry, I didn't realize the paper I posted had been discussed already.
Perhaps some balance to the Ivermectin/COVID-19 discussion section could be achieved by stating it is being studied by reputable organizations, such as Oxford. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial
The current impression given by the section is that Ivermectin's usage in treating COVID-19 is only supported by far-right conspiracy theorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.38.58 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
"Self-medication with a highly concentrated formula intended for horses has led to multiple hospitalizations, and overdose can lead to death, possibly due to interaction with other medications." -> this does not belong in the COVID research section but more in the toxicity section; additionally, further citations would be helpful for hospitalizations - the provided FDA source provides a minimal level of detail
"Ivermectin was generally well tolerated, with no indication of associated CNS toxicity for doses up to 10 times the highest FDA-approved dose of 200 μg/kg."[1]Caprilyc (talk) 11:49, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
May be worth adding section on potential neurological side effects - here is a review of adverse events in cases treated for parasitic infection. Based on 1668 cases of adverse events: "The most commonly reported adverse events for ivermectin were pruritus (25.3%), headache (13.9%), and dizziness (7.5%)." [1] 28 were associated with serious neurological adverse events likely unrelated to the underlying parasitic infection; 20 of these were associated with usage of concomitant medications. Caprilyc (talk) 12:09, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
A review of the antitumor effects of ivermectin that details several possible mechanisms of action, as well as cell culture and animal studies. "the in vitro and in vivo antitumor activities of ivermectin are achieved at concentrations that can be clinically reachable based on the human pharmacokinetic studies done in healthy and parasited patients."[1]
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"Misinformation" should only be used to refer to a claim that has been falsified. As argued above, the use of the word "misinformation" appears to be a subjective conclusion reached by Wikipedia editors and not by a trusted secondary source. Ivermectin's potential for treating Covid is actively being studied by Oxford and others. While it is certainly possible that misinformation about ivermectin's effects have been spread, without specifying what this misinformation is, and how it has been falsified, its use in the introductory paragraph is itself bordering on misinformation.
Since the discussion above RE subjectivity has fizzled out with no action, and the editors have been warned not to "free talk" on this page, I am lodging my previously expressed concerns in the form of a clearly actionable proposal. 2600:1700:7CC0:4770:4C3B:1AF9:643D:6055 (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
References
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Yes, the word "misinformation" should be omitted. To use it in this context is ... misinformation. No long term study has been done on Ivermectin's efficacy as a treatment for Covid, but many respected clinicians and scientists have suggested that there is empirical evidence that it could be an effective treatment.
This is a perfect example of a wikipedia article where the "talk" section is far more interesting and informative than the main page. The way in which so many wikipedia pages (like this one) are hijacked by vested interests pushing their agendas is incredibly disappointing. Pages should always be written in encyclopaedic format, with objective fact clearly separated from subjective opinion. Subjective opinion is still subjective opinion even if you can reference it! John2o2o2o (talk) 23:29, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
many respected clinicians and scientists- how many is "many"? how "respected" are they? - uttered a subjective opinion containing words like "suggested" and "could", which is
is still subjective opinion, according to you, and suggesting that there is solid evidence for their opinion is misinformation.
The positive signal found in this pilot warrants the conduction of larger trials using ivermectin for the early treatment of COVID-19This does not mean that it works. This means that more research is needed. The article also says that
The ivermectin group had non-statistically significant lower viral loads(one cannot conclude much from that),
as well as lower IgG(perhaps a good sign, but these are not neutralizing antibodies),
Patients in the ivermectin group recovered earlier from hyposmia/anosmia(looks similar to favipiravir, which shortens disease length but has no effect in reducing mortality; more research is needed). In any case, a sample size of 24 participants is too small.
From those two article one cannot conclude that saying (as now written in the intro of the article) that “claiming that ivermectin was beneficial for treating and preventing COVID-19” is “misinformation”Promoting this treatment to the lay public is misinformation until a benefit is demonstrated through serious research. Ivermectin is mildly hepatotoxic and prolonged use may cause liver damage. On a large scale, this in itself can do a lot of harm, and the illusion of protection will likely lead to risk compensation which will increase transmission rates of the new coronavirus.
did not significantly improve the time to resolution of symptoms.and that
ivermectin does not significantly affect the course of early COVID-19, consistent with pharmacokinetic models showing that plasma total and unbound ivermectin levels do not reach the concentration resulting in 50% of viral inhibition even for a dose level 10-times higher than the approved dose. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 03:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
The official WHO literature review summarizing the available research shows improvements in 7 outcomes: lower mortality, lower need for mechanical ventilation, higher viral clearance and lower time to viral clearance, lower hospital admission, lower time to clinical improvement, and shorter duration of hospitalization, though the certainty of the evidence on both benefits and frequency of adverse events is rated as low. Last update published on 3/15/21. Point being even official WHO lit review with strict exclusion criteria for the studies included shows positive effect of ivermectin treatment and calls for further research. [1][2] [3]Caprilyc (talk) 13:43, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
References
"ACTIV-6: COVID-19 Outpatient Randomized Trial to Evaluate Efficacy of Repurposed Medications" currently recruiting 15000 participants for a double-blind, placebo-controlled, RCT investigating ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19.[1] [2] Caprilyc (talk) 13:02, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
References
I think this is cool and worth adding to the COVID research section - unrelated to clinical efficacy for treatment, but showing an increase of number of ivermectin prescriptions dispensed in the US markedly increased. "During March 16, 2019–April 2, 2021, national estimates of ivermectin dispensed from outpatient retail pharmacies increased from an average of 3589 prescriptions per week at the pre-pandemic baseline to a peak of 39,102 prescriptions in the week ending on January 8, 2021 (989% relative percent increase)" and "the increase in the number of outpatients who received ivermectin from retail pharmacies observed during the pandemic followed publication of the previously mentioned in vitro study"[1] Caprilyc (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
References
References
Currently the article contains the positions of the WHO, CDC, European Medical Agency (EMA) whose consensus is that ivermectin should not be used for treating covid until clinical trials are done. Also, the usage of ivermectin in a number of countries in Latin America is mentioned, together with the recommendations of the relevant bodies. Recently India's health ministry has published guidelines recommending the use of ivermectin for treating some Covid patients. The questions are
To be clear, the question is not about the effectiveness of ivermectin against COVID (as far as I can see the consensus is that there is no proof that it works) but about the notability of the recommendations issues by various national and supra-national bodies. Alaexis¿question? 19:57, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Well no, Wikipedia in general doesn't attempt to legislate WP:CLUE. As it happens, in this case, there is some specific supplemental guidance on medical history given at WP:BMI. But if you are concerned the description of an 1879 cocaine experiment represents the undue promotion of a WP:FRINGE theory, then you know how it goes (but maybe expect pushback). Why stop there though? You could progress, say, to Cucking stool and demand that Wikipedia clarifies that witches don't really exist as this is a WP:FRINGE notion! Alexbrn (talk) 12:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Can Wikipedia say that the Indian government is officially using it? Yes, it's a relevant fact. Can Wikipedia suggest that it prevents COVID-19? No, the justification used by Goa was based on a scientific article published in a journal with poor indicators. Can Wikipedia suggest that the Indian health agency must be right and that CDC, WHO and EMA are all wrong? Not as a biomedical claim. Can Wikipedia suggest that the CDC, WHO and EMA are involved in some sort of conspiracy against ivermectin? No, but it could describe the controversy in a neutral way, but this article is not the right place. Here, the tone must be appropriate for the lay reader, writing that India's use of ivermectin goes against international consensus and at a time of despair. In addition, "to keep positivity" (as The Indian Express says) makes the political intention quite obvious. I suggest reading this article in Politico for context. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 00:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
“ | An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. | ” |
Another systematic review and meta-analysis. "Ivermectin was associated with decreased mortality in COVID-19 with a low certainty of evidence. Further adequately powered double-blinded placebo-controlled RCTs are required for definite conclusion." [1] Caprilyc (talk) 02:35, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
References
anything other than SoC/Placebo as controlentertained? Elgazzar 2020, Galan 2021, and NCT04646109. I guess that you understand the obvious lacunae with using such studies.
Another favorable meta-analysis published in Reviews in Medical Virology:
Caprilyc (talk) 22:06, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
References
I provide the corrections required, a summary of the supporting background information plus context, as well as the sources. If you don't correct this wikipedia will become an institution as trusted and respected as the new York times or fox news. Aka propaganda and disinformation outlet. No one will ever donate again. The section on Ivermectin spreads antiscientific medical misinformation: False stament on page: There is no reliable evidence of benefit from ivermectin in preventing or treating COVID-19. Furthermore, the sources that were cited are low quality not reliable and contradict the extensive indepemdent scientific literature documented below. Giving the benefit of the douht to this wiki, the author is at best guilty of cherry picking the data. The actual CREDIBLE literature available on this topic is extensive, peer reviewed, free from financial coflicts of interest, high quality, internally consistent, consistent with our current understanding of biology, biochemistry, medicine, immunology, and virology, as well as providing results that were independently and repeatedly REPLICATED, bringing me to me the main point. To correct previously inaccurate statements circulating online it is important to state that the available scientific evidence clearly and overwhealmingly demonstrates that Ivermectin is a safe and effective treatment for covid. This statement is consistent with the WHO's published data on the subject and 7 other meta analyses examining over 60 studies using Cochrane methodology and along with luvox ivermectin is recognized to be the standard of care by the world's leading independent physicians treating acute covid. [1], [2],...,[125],[126] Rationale supporting the above changes: Currently all statements about Ivermectin in the context of covid treatment in this article are flagrantly innaccurate and fundamentally antiscientific and actively promote medical misinformation, as there's a mountain of high quality evidence including 36 randomized controlled studies 32 peer reviewed articles covering over 18,000 participants all demonstrating that Ivermectin is effective along with dozens more establishing its mechanism of action and likely impact on the pandemic if widely adopted. [1],[2],...,[125],[126]. The science here is NOT CONTROVERSIAL. To see the current state of the science on Ivetmectin see the meta analysis published at ivmmeta.com as well as 8 other meta analyses they systematically review that are comsistent with their findings (including the results published by the WHO[OR]). Their analysis covers over 60 studies with more than 18,000 total participants meet the exclusion criteria for a Cochrane meta analysis that shows Ivetmectin performs as well if not better than the vaccine as prophylaxis, has a SIGNIFICANTLY superior safety profile to the vaccines, provides instant reliable protection (vs a wait for of up to 6 weeks for full immunity in the case of vaccines), and reduces mortality by 96% in those who are treated AFTER being infected. The probability that an ineffective treatment generated results as positive as the 61 studies to date is estimated to be 1 in 354 billion (p = 0.0000000000028) The WHO meta analysis cited above clearly establishes the effectiveness of Ivetmectin demonstrating an 81% improvement over control in the data they examined. The WHO position that references this report was formulated by a heavily politicized committee consisting of individuals with industry conflicts who claim there's insufficient evidence. Agian the WHO position INCONSISTENT with the numbers the WHO cites to justify their recommendations. These recommendations contradict those recently issued by another committee CORRECTLY recommending the approval of Ivermectin as a safe treatment for scabies on an order of magnitude less evidence (10 small trials with less than 900 total participants and less over all effectiveness). Sources: 1. Abd-Elsalam et al., Journal of Medical Virology, doi:10.1002/jmv.27122, Clinical Study Evaluating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in COVID-19 Treatment: A Randomized Controlled Study, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27122. 2. Adams, B., Fierce Biotech, Merck must do a new trial for faltering $425M COVID-19 drug the U.S. government asked it to buy, https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biot..rug-u-s-government-asked-it-to-buy. 3. Afsar et al., SSRN, Ivermectin Use Associated with Reduced Duration of COVID-19 Febrile Illness in a Community Setting, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3734478. 4. Ahmed et al., International Journal of Infectious Diseases, doi:10.1016/j.ijid.2020.11.191, A five day course of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 may reduce the duration of illness, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220325066. 5. Ahsan et al., Cureus, doi:10.7759/cureus.14761 , Clinical Variants, Characteristics, and Outcomes Among COVID-19 Patients: A Case Series Analysis at a Tertiary Care Hospital in Karachi, Pakistan, https://www.cureus.com/articles/56..-care-hospital-in-karachi-pakistan. 6. 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I feel the article is skewed against Ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19 when in fact, The National Institute of Health is withholding judgement until further testing is done. The case against is politically motivated.
This is the last paragraph of the current intro: During the COVID-19 pandemic, misinformation was widely spread claiming that ivermectin was beneficial for treating and preventing COVID-19.[14] Such claims are not backed by sound evidence.[15][16][17][18][19]
I would like to add this immediately afterward: However, from the US government National Institute of Health: "There are insufficient data for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19." The source is: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/ivermectin/ 83Gulf (talk) 01:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)![]() | This edit request to Ivermectin has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Paragraph 4 entire section. Ref 14 to 19. New studies published by the lancet in EclinincalMedicine https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00239-X/fulltext show it "has shown potent activity against SARS-CoV-2 in vitro". Further studies are now underway to ascertain it's use in treating Covid-19 https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/oxford-university-explores-anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-covid-19-treatment-2021-06-22/ CosmosGRL (talk) 09:28, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
When trying to add a source about the research on Ivermectine as COVID treatment, the article Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19 (and I understand that it will also apply to: Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines it was discarded with the comment by @Ftrebien: that reads:
I do not understand at full that comment, but then I found that a new source was added to that problematic comment: Misleading clinical evidence and systematic reviews on ivermectin for COVID-19 that is not even a paper, but an opinion note published as far as I understand on the BMJ Evidence-Based Medicine, that looks worst on Scimago, at least based on the H-index of 11, against the 62 of the American Journal of Therapeutics. Is there anything I'm missing here? --Eloyesp (talk) 01:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Here's something a lot of people are missing in the above discussion: Am J Ther may be a reputable journal for some things, but it is not a reputable journal for the extremely controversial topic of Ivermectin in COVID-19. In the context of the scientific landscape, the best thing we have is the consensus statements from places like the FDA [10], Infectious Disease Society of America [11], CDC [12], NIH [13], and dedicated experts with excellent standing in their field like MGH's FLARE [14]. These neutral bodies which are comprised of many experts in these topics have spent hours and hours reviewing the clinical research evidence, so that we don't have to. We are meant to reflect the consensus of the science. And that consensus is reflected in these statements from professional bodies and organizations. Physicians respect these institutions, so we should too. We cannot mislead the public and attempt to circumvent the most reliable medical reviews of the literature around, just because a very loud minority of scientists or researchers or internet sleuths or armchair scientists believe X thing. We have to follow the state of the evidence. See WP:V. When these consensus-generating professional bodies change, we can as well. Until then, no dice.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 14:14, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
While we wait for solid evidence, we can point to expert opinion, see WP:MEDASSESS. The BMJ is a core journal. As for SCImago, look at the quartiles (current and past) and the SJR index at the bottom of the page. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
@Caprilyc: your account was created 2 days ago exclusively for editing on ivermectin? Are you a paid editor? In that case, your user page must disclose this. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:58, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
present prevailing medical or scientific consensus, which can be found in recent, authoritative review articles, in statements and practice guidelines issued by major professional medical or scientific societies (for example, the European Society of Cardiology or the Infectious Disease Society of America) and widely respected governmental and quasi-governmental health authorities (for example, AHRQ, USPSTF, NICE, and WHO), in textbooks, or in scholarly monographs.
There is inadequate information on costs. 1. There has been a lot of reporting on the extremely low cost of ivermectin, including in the peer-reviewed medical literature. The article should reflect that. Anyone dispute that there should be some mention of its extremely low cost? 2. Instead, the section starts with info that belongs in the History section, and never gets to bulk or LMIC pricing. 3.It also slightly deceptively reports that two 3 mg tablets (lice in children, 1 treatment) cost about $10 US, when 3.1 the source says they cost $9.30, and 3.2 GoodRx has that dose for $6 and about $1/pill if >20 pills are ordered. Per Wikipedia:Prices, "Wikipedia has no specific policy on presenting prices of products." until it was overrun, I presume because: Some old quotes:
4. Ivermectin is officially approved for use in the prevention and treatment of covid-19 in multiple nations and available for such use in many more. Anyone dispute that? 5. In some nations, Ivermectin is officially supplied at no cost for use in the prevention and treatment of covid-19. Anyone dispute that? 6. WP:NOTCENSORED applies to this use. Anyone dispute that? 7. WP:V states, "If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight." and we're not doing that. Anyone dispute that?
For now, I just request correction per 3, 3.1, above: Replace 10 with 9, as $9.30 rounds to 9.--50.201.195.170 (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
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It seems that the introductory conclusion... "During the COVID-19 pandemic, misinformation was widely spread claiming that ivermectin was beneficial for treating and preventing COVID-19.[14] Such claims are not backed by sound evidence.[15][16][17][18][19]"... is disputed here in a peer-reviewed publication: https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx
22:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC) Hi Jim hoerner, please see the several other discussions about this source already on this talk page. Search the archives as well. If you believe you have new evidence or reasons to bring up that in some way contradict the consensus on this talk page, that would be appropriate. But please don't make us reinvent the wheel again. --Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 13:58, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't care if the study is disputed.See, this is why WP:CIR. If you had read WP:MEDRS, you would know that being "published in a peer-reviewed journal" is a ridiculously low standard. Lots of crap gets "published in a peer-reviewed journal", and lots of weak and inconclusive stuff gets "published in a peer-reviewed journal". Bad studies typically get disputed more than good ones. All these things are very basic facts about medical science. For other sciences, you still have WP:RS.
I am an engineer, not an epidemiologist) and at the same time behave as if they understand it much better than those who make their living in that field. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the lede; the most "sympathetic" language possible is to explicitly quote the WHO as saying data is inconclusive; the various "some people say it is effective" statements simply aren't acceptable. The most glaringly missing material in this article is the lack of discussion regarding usage statistics of Ivermectin in third-world countries. There are suggestions that a substantial part of the population in Latin America and India are taking it (either prophylactically or as treatment) but I haven't found any reliable sources that quantify that use to add it. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
There are a lot of sections about meta-analyses, rather than pick one I make a new section for this.
The emphasis I see on other forums about how meta-analyses are the "best" type of evidence is largely crap. Most of the meta-analyses I've seen on Ivermectin (some promoted by people claiming it is a miracle cure, others promoted by people saying it does nothing) are garbage-in, garbage-out. Doing a meta-analysis on 5-10 studies, each of which has 400 people or less, is still not going to give you good results.
By comparison, take Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ). There are a lot of bad meta-analyses about that as well. But it doesn't matter. We have one good study (by Oxford) with conclusive results, and that was it. Even Donald Trump stopped harping about it.
In conclusion: please can we have less of the meta-analysis talk here? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:49, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
The editor logic on this page is very confusing, and seems to me to be contradicting itself when convenient. First we are told "Sources can only be questioned when there is some sourced legitimate basis for doing so. Alexbrn (talk) 13:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)" But then later we are told that sources that are from "an ivermectin advocate" should be questioned (even when it is a meta-analysis published in a peer reviewed journal). Then we are referred to the WP page on assessing medical evidence, where we're told "Studies can be categorized into levels of evidence, and editors should rely on high-level evidence, such as systematic reviews." This is followed by an image of a pyramid showing Meta-Analysis, Systematic Review" at the top of the pyramid, above RCTs. And now we're told we "shouldn't have to go 'down' to meta-analysis," but rather rely on political and bureaucratic major medical bodies for direction on what gets posted on WP? Can you folks understand why so many of keep pushing back? The guidance is not coherent. User:DavidM