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Would it be possible to make this more POV? I don't think so. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, you posted your pov notice while I was writing a "criticism" section. Homey 03:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
To avoid POV you may wish to focus more centrally on the history of the idea of Israeli apartheid and make sure that you distinguish Zionism and Israel because I think that the term is more often meant to be Zionist Israeli Apartheid rather than Israeli Apartheid. It is, however, a legit term but I think it needs to be presented is a different fashion. --Strothra 03:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Even with the "criticism" section, this article is completely preposterous. So now every time someone calls something a name, there has to be an article about it? Between this, "Wall of Shame," "Apartheid Wall" and other "articles," Wikipedia is quickly becoming an Encyclopedia of Name-Calling. If I knew how to request the deletion of an article (yes, I know I should), I would do it with this one. It's ridiculous. 6SJ7 04:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
6SJ7, you would have a point if there were only a handful of instances where the term has been used. However, if you google "Israeli apartheid" you will get approximately 240,000 hits[1]. I would agree that "every time someone calls something a name" there needn't be an article about it but when 240,000 people use a phrase it's notable. Homey 04:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
6SJ7, you must be more specific. What, exactly, in the article is inaccurate? What, exactly, is NPOV? Please give specific examples. Homey 04:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
And what, specifically, in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not is being violated?Homey 04:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm reinserting the unencyclopedic tag, just because the name has a couple hundred thousand hits does not automatically mean there should be an article about it. It clearly represents a strong pov, just because it doesn't take an explicit stance on the subject doesn't mean it isn't doing it implicitly.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Moshe, can you give me a specific citation of what in Wikipeida:What Wikipedia is not is being violated? If you can't do this then the tag can't stay on. Homey 05:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 2)"By virtue of the fact that the article is called Israeli apartheid it is taking a stance on the subject." That's absolutely preposterous. The term is widely used and merits definition and exposition. Just because you don't like a phrase doesn't mean you can ban it from wikipedia if it is in broad use. This looks like an attempt to censor a concept for POV reasons. The term is in wide use, your comments on NPOV should be directed at the article, not its title. Homey 05:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have now been edit-conflicted out of commenting four times, so some of this may seem out of place. My original explanations for my tags didn't make it to the page when I thought it did, and now the explanation is already moot and the tags have been changed back and forth several times. Humus and Moshe have expressed what I would have said, and I feel the tags are ok as they are now -- but only as a preliminary to eliminating or merging this article out of existence, or at least re-titling it. After all, Wikipedia is the place where you can't have an article called "Palestinian terrorism" (something that undoubtedly exists and has existed for many years) without it being turned into "Palestinian political violence," and I and others have had to fight just to keep the word "terrorism" somewhere in the first paragraph -- and yet there can be an article "Israeli apartheid"? Ridiculous. 6SJ7 05:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There's also an article called Evil empire. Homey 05:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What about a phrase used by a Nobel Prize Winner like Desmond Tutu?Homey 05:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
So you think fighting against apartheid in South Africa is deranged? Homey 06:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
So Tutu is only "deranged" when it comes to Israel? Is that your NPOV assessment? Is he only deranged because he comes to a political conclusion you disagree with?
I never said the term was neutral or mainstream. My concern is that the article is NPOV. The term is used in political discourse on the Middle East, that is not contestable. That you are trying to ban an article on a term you dislike is POV. The NPOV position is to recognise that the term is used with increasing frequency and attempt to write an article explaining the term in an NPOV way. Are you willing or able to do this? Trying to ban a term you don't like is not NPOV. Homey 06:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
If there were an article called Jewish ritual murder than that article would need to be disambiguated. As it is the ritual murder article is largely about the Jewish blood libel so diambiguation is not necessary.Homey 06:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not condoning the phrase, I simply recognize that it's in use and merits a wikipedia article. Please set your POV aside. Homey 07:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should be moved to Israel and aparthied, like Zionism and Racism adn Islam and anti-Semitism.Bless sins 10:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
That would suggest an article about the relationship between Israel and South Africa's apartheid regime.
As for the new title of "Israeli apartheid (phrase)" that would make sense if we were trying to disambiguate from other "Israeli apartheids" as we aren't its a meaningless change. Homey 18:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
People should really review WP:not Zeq 14:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
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Please do not copy the entirety of a WP policy into the talk page. Please see WP:POINT. Also see WP:DICK. You were asked to point out the specific areas of the WP:NOT policy which you feel this article does not comply with. Please see WP:CIVIL as your actions may be construed as hostile. --Strothra 15:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There is not one iota of original research in the article. Homey 18:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Two comments below have been copied from user talk pages:
They may or may not be reliable sources for facts about Israel. They are, however, reliable sources for what proponents of the term "Israeli apartheid" are arguing. Homey 13:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Economist and BBC articles are unsigned as well as a rule. Please don't make up non-existent wikipedia rules. GlobalExchange is a reliable source for what proponents of the term "Israeli apartheid" are saying.Homey 17:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
GlobalExchange is a reliable source only as far as one article: Global Exchange. See WP:RS Zeq 17:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
That's a rather tortured argument. The phrase renders over 200,000 hits so it meets our standards of notability. Global Exchange is a widely recognized pro-Palestinian site so their publications are recognizable as representative of pro-Palestinian views. Moreover, their pages are amply footnoted. If the Jewish Virtual Library, which also has unsigned articles, is a credible representative of the pro-Zionist view then Global Exchange is a credible representative of the opposite. I don't see you objecting to the use of JVL as a source in this article. Why would that be?Homey 17:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
That is nice but does not meet WP:RS. Zeq 18:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
How doesn't it? Zeq, by your argument Jewish Virtual Library doesn't meet WPRS either. Shall we now remove all factoids from wikipedia that are credited to JVL?Homey 18:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
And Zeq, one more revert and I'm going to prepare to take you to the ArbComm for POV vandalism. Given you editing history I'd strongly caution you to cease or desist lest you face a longterm ban. Homey 18:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
So far you are the only one violating policy here. read WP:RS . Zeq 18:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I dispute this paragrpah (it is not NPOV):
Israeli apartheid is a controversial phrase used by some anti-Zionists and Palestinian rights activists to draw an analogy between the policies of the Israeli government towards Palestinians to those of the apartheid-era South African government towards its Black and mixed-race populations. The analogy has been used as early as 1987 by Uri Davis, an Israeli-born academic and Jewish member of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in his book Israel: An Apartheid State (ISBN 0862323177) which provided a detailed comparison of Israel and South Africa. The highly controversial World Conference against Racism in Durban, South Africa adopted resolutions describing Israel as an "apartheid state"[3]. Nobel Peace Prize winner and South African anti-apartheid activist Desmond Tutu wrote in some articles that the situation in Israel reminded him about Apartheid[4].
and this was is based on a source which does not meet WP:RS:
- Proponents of this term argue that while Israel grants some rights to Arabs living in Israel within its pre-1967 borders, it routinely discriminates against Arabs living in the Occupied Territories. Proponenets present a number of reasons for this.[5] - *Palestinians (as opposed to Israeli Arabs) do not have voting rights as do citizens of Israel, but they are under Israeli occupation and subject to the laws and policies of the Israeli government and its military. (Ibid) - *Israel has constructed settlements in the West Bank, where Israeli settlers enjoy high standards of living with respect to the local Palestinian population. These colonies also expend large amounts of resources (especially water), at the expense of the local inhabitants, who are forced to make ends meet. (Ibid) - *Israel has created roads and checkpoints that isolate Palestinian communities and have effectively formed an Israeli version of the South African Bantustans. (Ibid) - *Israeli road plans in the West Banks have been condemned as "apartheid" as some roads would be reserved for Palestinians while others would be reserved for Israelis[6]. - Proponents of this term often claim discrimination against Israeli Arabs. [7] - *Jews can easily enter Israel, under the Law of Return, yet Palestinians who fled or were driven out, may not have the Right of return.(Ibid) - *Arab municipalities receive less than one fifth the funding that is given to their Jewish counterparts. (Ibid) - *The Government of Israel often refuses to grant permits to build or repair homes, and fails to provide electricity, water, health services, education, roads, or any other infrastructure. One of the consequences is that 70% of Negev Desert Bedouin (Arab) infants are not fully immunized and one third are hospitalized within their first year of life. (Ibid)
Please keep in mind what wikipedia is not and don't turn this article into a political attenpt to delegitimize Israel. The place to argue about the rights and wrongs (there are mnay) of Israel policies is not in this encyclopedia. Zeq 17:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
At the very least, the first point's description of unequal division is a general benefit to Israel as a whole, and isn't specific to settlements (and states that the division preceded the Israeli occupation). As for the second point, to the best of my [limited] knowledge, there are no major Israeli drilling sites in the West Bank, but rather dozens of pumping stations that transport water from the Israeli grid up into the hills. B'Tselem didn't provide numbers relating to Israel's utilisation of "new water sources" - joined with the preceding, this leads me to believe that the utilisation is domestic in nature and negligible in overall quantity. I found the following about the Gaza area settlement:
While this report documents utilisation of "new water sources," it seems to regard it as being of secondary importance. Anyhow, if you come up with something else (particularly numbers documenting the "new" utilisation - that would change much) let me know. Cheers, TewfikTalk 05:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I reverted user:Bless sins's reversion of my edits. The reasoning I expressed above wasn't challenged or addressed. I acknowledge that Bless sins stated reasoning was that we aren't here to judge the claims, but I thought we were crossing the line between presenting a POV and presenting non-factual information. Let me know if you believe me to be in error. Cheers, TewfikTalk 03:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)