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what does religon have to do with the revolution???
74.184.3.10 (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the "World GDP" map for AD 1 to 2003, you will note that the largest GDP in 2003 is "Western offshoots." How much of this "Western offshoot" is the United States? The maker of the graph could easily have made a category for Australian/Oceania and either had Canada and the United States separated into two, or merged as "northern America." And how about a Causes for the Industrial Revolution in the United States? The United States was about the second country to industrialize after the UK, roughly paralleling Germany in both railroads and manufacturing (textile and other). Be anti-American all you want, but at least TRY to make objective contributions. Chiss Boy 17:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
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The concept of industrial revolution is so central to our conception of what it is to be modern and what it is for a society to 'develop' (tricky concepts, I know) that this ideally needs to be broadened beyond an account of industrial revolution in 18th century onwards Europe. How is industrial revolution essential in producing a modern society, or how has it been at least? What have the essential processes been, in what cultural circumstances? Generalisations from Europe often fail in analysing other countries, even in successful revolutions like Japan's. --Rich Shore 13:14, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
--- Historians who cover the 17th and 18th centuries consider that the modern period starts before the industrial revolution. Things like the Scientific revolution of the 17th century come into play, and so does the phenomenon of the The Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century. The industrial revolution in Japan is an interesting phenomenon, comparable to the industrial revolution in Russia in more ways than one. In both cases a new interest in Natural Philosophy (later to be known as Science) predated the top-down industrialisation, so many sections of the elites and the merchants were ready, mentally, for the industrial change. --AlainV 03:44, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
--- what about oxen and wind power? They were used to power grist mills and pumps, were they never used to drive machinery?
Oxen and wind were used, but wind is sporatic, and oxen do not provide the horsepower or force that steam power can provide, nor in such a controlled fashion.
my opinion, Mike Dill
Wasn't the revolution more in the 19th century than the 18th? -rmhermen
The Industrial Revolution was definitely underway in Britain by 1750, and had started to spread to the Low Countries by 1800. Much of the rest of the world joined up in the 1800s, but that's rather like the spread of the Renaissance (1400s in Italy, 1600s in Britain). Like ripples of water spreading from a point source.-- PaulDrye
Didn't the transition cause a wave of rural poverty (and consequently an increase in crime) and a drift to the cities? I thought one of the major reasons for the growth in crime in the 18th century (and thus the impetus for transportation to Australia) was the unemployment the transition caused. --Robert Merkel
Because industry required energy source (coal), transportation (sea port), and workers (new industrial cities), there was a mass migration out of villages into anonymous cities. This dislocation separated people from their traditional supports (social, cultural, spiritual). The answer to these losses was found in the industrial mentality of centralization, standardization, and co-operation (conformity). This shift found expression in the rise of professionalism (medicine, nursing, teaching, accounting, etc.), science (Darwin, etc.), classical music (Mozart then Beethoven), and mass political movements (Paris commune, oligarchy then democracy). This unprecedented change in human life is reflected in many, many statistics: world population, carbon dioxide content of Greenland ice-cap, population of mental hospitals (peaked in 1949).-- Robin Routledge
"The Industrial Revolution" should be a seperate topic than "industrial revolution". I'm sure 172 will agree. Dietary Fiber
Is there a reason for the unexplained deletion of so much text? Failing an explanation, I'll revert shortly. (Or, if there is a good reason, say so and I'll hold off.) Tannin 12:29 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
Actually, I do agree with Lir/Vera, aka Dietary Fiber this once! I'd call what contemporary China's going through an "industrial revolution". It's like the capitalized "Civil War" referring to the civil war in the United States in the 1860s (in my country at least!) and lower case "civil war" referring to any civil war.
This article also needs a much more complex analytic framework for dealing with what led up to the Industrial Revolution and its impact on economic structures, political structures, class structures, and culture. I'm definitely adding this article to my list of long-term projects. Anyone willing to join me? Three excellent contributors come to mind very capable of doing this: Tannin, Sluberstein, and Jtdrl. 172
It's been on my list for some time, AS. Currently, it is very shallow. I have a part-finished major re-write of it somewhere on my hard drive (or is it still in rough notes?), probably sitting right next to the dozens of other forgotten, half-finished contributions to other things. I'm rusty, but it's one of the two or three areas of history that I know best ... er ... "knew" best. Use it or lose it - memory is a harsh taskmaster. Tannin
Note: everybody else is not welcome. (User signing as 172.172.13.108 - not to be confused with User:172 - disambiguation added by me, Tannin)
Thanks for the distinction, Tannin.
It would be great if some engineers and natural scientists, and especially historians of science, jumped into this article as well. I am completely illiterate in this area, merely knowing what was invented and whether the social structure would have been to the innovation.
Jared Diamond's assessment of the industrial revolution in Guns, Germs, and Steel is also very interesting. The users who participated in the article on this book would probably be interested in upgrading this article as well. 172
The city of Zaandam in the Netherlands claims to be the first industrial city in Europe. (http://www.zaanstad.nl/functies/pagfunctie.cfm?parameter=1807) [[Opa 12:09, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)]]
I could not read the pages in Dutch but I read the page in English, and it is a bit overly generous in its definition of what is "industrial". There is no mention of steam power or of the other traits of countries which are undergoing their first industrial revolution. On the other hand, there seems to have been, sometime around 1600, what is usually described as a very intensive pre-take-off economy, similar to that found in the most developed parts of China at a similar time or a wee bit earlier. AlainV 23:34, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
The sentence beginning "In 1771, Richard Arkwright..." has lost its ending, and the links section for the "Transportation" section appears slightly confusing/items run together.
I could add a bit to the Textile Industry section (and the link should be to something of this nature, rather than textiles as such), if requested.
Jackiespeel 15:36, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Don't forget to add something about the importance of mechanical engineering, mining and metallurgy in this.
From the start of the industrial revolution, publications like encyclopaedias, technical periodicals and patents were vital for the dissemination of information about machines and processes.
I hope to be adding to this work in due course Apwoolrich 07:17, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've heard it mentioned a number of times that the start of the industrial revolution is marked by the invention of the seed drill by Jethro Tull early in the eighteenth century. Does anyone know if this statement is supportable, because if so maybe it should be mentioned. It did bring about the mechanisation of crop planting, part of the increased efficiency in agriculture mentioned in the article as leading on to the industrial revolution. I wasn't sure whether people would agree with this as being the start of industrialisation, so didn't want to alter the article myself.~~DJ 2 Sept 2006
Alain V.: I have reverted your addition of the term 'first phase' because I have never come across it in any of the research I've done, and because most references that do cite an 'end' to the Industrial Revolution say that it's something like 1830 or 1840. (1840 is, I think, Toynbee's view, writing in the 1870s.) My personal view is that the IR extends from ca. 1700 to 1830, but that's all it is — a view. If you can document this use of 'phase', then I'll be happy to reconsider. Meanwhile, I'll do a search of the internet resources listed on my user page, and see if any of them mention it. Cheers, Noisy | Talk 14:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Use any term you wish instead of phase, as there is no consensus amongst economic historians or historians of technology on what to call these different steps or periods in the continuing phenomenon of rapid technological and economic change which starts in the United Kingdom sometime in the 18th century. Some call it the first and the second industrial revolution instead of the first and second phases of the changes. And there is no way any serious historian can give a precise end to the first phase/industrial revolution. Too many technologies of the first and second overlap. Toynbee by the way is not considered a serious scholar, but an out-of date populariser by modern professional historians. For the sake of convenience some good historians will pick a date when giving a lecture or writing an elementary textbook, but it is just a convenience. The classic, scholarly source for the history of technology is the multi volume (4 or 5 or 6 volumes depending on the edition you can get) history of technology edited by Derry and Wiliamn, and later by Charles Singer. I have put its abridged version in the references at the bottom of the article. It covers the Industrial revolution(s) quite well. By the way, I just did a Google search with the term "phases of the industrial revolution" and I immediatley got relevant hits. AlainV 03:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've removed this line from the end of the final paragraph on 'Causes' -- "The restructuring of the American domestic market would trigger the second Industrial Revolution over 100 years later."
Since the article has no prior statements of what date the "100 years later" starts from, nor does it have any explanation or amplification of how changes in the US domestic market might have triggered a second industrial revolution -- I don't see the relevance or reason behind including the line I removed from the article.
Your comments are welcome and invited. Cheers, Madmagic 09:26, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
moved comments from Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive:--Fenice 19:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can somebody change the image to one reflecting the Instrial Revolution.This is a portable engine of I guess late 19th - early 20th century, and not a steam engine used for driving a factory There are more apt imagines on the German Wiki article Damphsmaschine Apwoolrich 18:13, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to carp, but can the Cameron image be changed for the Newcomen engine on the German page. Its the wrong date for the article and Cameron's ideas did not get used in main steam engine technology. Thanks Apwoolrich 19:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This here looks like an even earlier model than the current one in the intro:--Fenice 20:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It certainly is. Its a pity about the background though. Ideally it should be a line drawing for clarity. Many thanks for the Newcomen engine. I must get down to learning how to find images for myself:) Apwoolrich 20:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We need a lot more footnotes in this article.--Fenice 18:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, but do you mean real footnotes or references and links within each section? I am inclined to get the text fleshed out a little bit more and then add then afterwards. Apwoolrich 19:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Added, as requested Apwoolrich 18:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Should we have in here somewhere a section about the intellectual hostility to industry from about 1800 by the Romantic Movement - William Blake etc? Apwoolrich 19:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, and more concrete reactions too, such as the Arts and Crafts movement more or less led by William Morris. --AlainV 04:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we should have a section on that. How about a section "Criticism" towards the end of the article, after "Intellecutal paradigm" and before "second industrial revolution". Marxism should probably also go under "Criticism" rather than "intellectual paradigm".--Fenice 05:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The arts and crafts movement was divided over its attotude towards technology. Some in it were totally against technology and new industry while others rejected only the inhumane division of labour which cheapened products and made the worker,s life meaningless. It was criticism on a certain level and reactionary impulse on another. On the other hand Marxism embraced technology completely and saw the industrial revolution as a necessary stage towards the seizire of power by the proletariat, so it was an intellectual paradigm as well as criticism. --AlainV 15:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're right, on a political level Marx sees it as a necessary stage. He was critical on the theoretical level however. Marx and Marxian Economists criticize classical/neoclassical economics as being incomplete at best.--Fenice 14:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why is this a red link? It would be logical to have a separate article on this. But looking closer at this article: it is geographically imbalanced anyway and maybe we should move it to British Industrial Revolution. But we need an overview-article Industrial Revolution as well.--Fenice 14:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm...i learn about this in history class. If i remember corectly people weare sick of working so much...and they start Strikes agains machines. They sayd that the machines are evil...they even made some sort of "Machine destroyers group". I'm to tired now to look after the notebook. Can someone comfirm what i sayd ? Atleast if you understand... :) --PET 01:04, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have any thoughts on why we have been having so much vandalism on this page in recent weeks? Apwoolrich 15:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
yes, the luddites. They were specially popular among handloom weavers, who hated being displaced by textile mills.
Bertrand Russell's offhand comments in praise of a 4 day workweek are irrelevant and don't belong in an analytical history.
Dunno if this is intentional, but on Macs the text is full of rubbish "mouse over" and stuff like this. 192.115.133.141 01:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
One problem I think is that this article really doesn't give a strong defintion beyond the usual and very general "socioeconomic changes" sort of explanation. Maybe we're all comming to this article with different conceptions of what the IR exactly was, and so it never occurs to any of us to offer more solid definitions. If an alien from Mars read this article, I don't think he'd really know what the IR was, other than that it involved some very big changes. Which changes? The best and most consice definition I've heard is that the IR was "a massive and unprecedented increase in the rate of change of technological innovation." Though possibly implied, this point isn't explicitly expressed in the article.
It's my understanding that people like Karl Marx and Adam Smith, though they lived during or immediatly after the IR, neither wrote of an "Idustrial Revolution." This doesn't seem strange when you consider that people in the "neolithic revolution" mentioned in these talkbacks probably didn't realize that they were part of any agricultural revolution. This kind of contemporary ignorance seems to hold true during many historical changes. Does anyone know when and where the realization of the IR as a historical even actually arose?
To all who read this, please sign your name on your articles. The American industrial revolution is an excellent example of economic upheaval in a now industrialized nation. History tells 19:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
On the tea article it mentions, as I have heard from a documentary myself, that some historians believe that tea was an important factor in allowing the industrial revolution to take place in Britain at the time it did - the boiling of the water and natural antibiotics in tea (if I remember it correctly) apparently helped improve people's health and work rate. Is this worth mentioning? --El Pollo Diablo Talk
Would it be worth adding 'Slow Growth' criticisms of the idea of an Industrial Revolution? (Crafts and Harley spring to mind). If so, I've recently completed an essay on the subject (Entitled 'Despite slow growth from 1780-1830, had there been an industrial revolution by 1870?') which could be editted and put in, along with a more detailed historiography ranging from Toynbee to Hudson. (From Sanf (talk · contribs))
I believe this term surfaced in the early 20th Century and was popularised by Toynbee. It is used for a number of purposes (hence the above post)and even it's use as a phrase is disputed. Clapham made a point of boycotting the phrase. (From Sanf (talk · contribs)
how about someone write a little about netherton in the black county and all the chain and anchor making, nail making iron forging that went on there
§I have to do a paper on this for AP World History and I am CONFUSED! 24.209.118.111 21:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Read the article and also spell understand correctly —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicities (talk • contribs) 05:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe that this section is appropriate to the article. What in the world is it doing plumped down here? It features only a couple of quotes, both of which say the same thing. This is an article on the industrial revolution, after all! It has this long paragraph of dubious relevance, but nary a word, for example, of the development of the chemical industry during the industrial revolution. It adds to the length of the article, which is too long already. I am deleting the whole section for these reasons. DonSiano 17:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The Lunar Society was significant, but I think that some one's addition about it has given this a prominence that it does not deserve. One sentence on it (with a link) ought to be sufficient, not a whole section.
This is a good (though brief) discussion of an important subject, and I would suggest that it should not be altered save by those who really know what they are talking out. Peterkingiron 00:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I have substantially rewritten this section based, which was of much lower quality than the rest of the article. In doing so, I have eliminated the following text: In the early 18th century, small-scale iron working and extraction and processing of other metals were carried out where local resources permitted. Fuel was primarily wood in the form of charcoal, but consumption was starting to be constrained by lack of available timber. At the same time, demand for high-quality iron was dramatically increasing to keep pace with the improvements in military technology and the involvement of Britain in numerous European wars.
To fuel the iron smelting process, people moved from wood to coal and coke. Production of pig iron, cast iron and wrought iron improved through the exchange of ideas (although this was by no means a fast process), with the most well-known name being Abraham Darby, although this was principally due to the nature of the coke he was using, and the scientific reasons for the improvement were only discovered later. His family followed in his footsteps, and iron became a major construction material. Peterkingiron 15:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a subject about which historians have been arguing for many years. The section here on this fails to reflect the most recent debates on this subject, and merely gives a few of the ideas that were current several decades ago, some of which are now discredited. Peterkingiron 20:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
The industrial revolution was good.
- Industrialization brought expansion either privately, or as a nation, in searching new sites for the gain of materials/resources overseas, and under such goal as exploring new/remote markets for domestic needs of those industralized powers later.
If you want to make the stock claims that the industrial revolution led to all kinds of horrible social ills such as increased child labor, poverty, pollution, cats and dogs living together, dissolution of the family, etc, you are going to have to cite actual evidence of this. Please try and refrain from regurgitating the "accepted" commonly believed liberal/socialist POV description of the industrial revolution. You need to actually compare the conditions during this period to those of previous periods, which were often already, very, very bad for most people.Segelflugzeugwettbewerber 01:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you realize that child labour started being heavily documented during the industrial revolution because of the massive increase in literacy? Do you think that in rural, non-industrial areas children didn't start pulling plows from age 9? The fact that infant mortality decreased five-fold might have something to do with people not worrying about children dying and starting to worry about tough working conditions. I suggest you stop sprouting cliched marxist propaganda and do some research yourself, and not just in history books: go to Thailand or Cambodia and see what child labour is like there and why.
How's about we don't put pseudohistory in, Eh? ----
I have the opinion that the industrial revolution was greatly beneficial to the workers. Compared to modern standards, the conditions must have been abominable but before the revolution it was a lot worse. I have just added the comment (with reference) the mortality among children under the age of five decreased from around 75 to around 30%.
There is one paragraph in 'other effects' which doesn't cite it's resouces at all. I'm intending to do research on it and either find solid references or alter the paragraph with a reference of every fact. --Ekpyrosis 21:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it is an important omission not mentioning the income statistics, specially since there is a lot of academic work on the subject. It is not insignificant that from 1700 to 1830 incomes rose by more than half and then almost doubled between 1830 and 1860. Also per person calorie intakes, mortality rates, population growth...
I have added a referenced remark about the increase income, still doing more research.--Ekpyrosis 22:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Manual of Style coveres proper introductions here:
The Industrial Revolution might have began in the U.K., but the introduction should reflect what it eventually turned into. It really limits the scope to say it was an English thing, and then mention that it happen to have significant impacts throughout the world in the third paragraph. Cacophony 06:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Really the first law against child labour was the Factory Act of 1819. Although it was ineffective because it included no means of enforcement, it was still the first child labour law. The Factory Act of 1833 merely allowed for the investigation and enforcement of the Factory Act of 1819. Under this law, textile mill operators were prohibited from employing children under the age of nine. Children between 9 and 13 could not work more than 8 hours a day, and children between 13 and 18 could work no longer than 12 hours a day. Nine years later another law was passed that prohibited the employment of all women and children under 10 in coal mines. In 1847, the Ten Hours Act was passed. This law established a 10 hour working day for children under 18 and women. This eventually led to a ten hour workday for all workers because it wasn't profitable to keep the factories running after all the women and children were gone.
I'd add this, but I'm afraid I might mess something up seeing as I'm not totally used to editing as of yet. I'll just stick to learning with the talk pages and leave this to someone more experienced...--Gotmesomepants 22:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please, i want to know how this works. what is really industry-based economy, and please give me an example where this has worked most. I will be so grateful if you could render me the assistance as soon as possible. If possible now. Thank you so very much.
Emeka..........
Keep an eye on this page. It's been the target of recent school IP vandalism. I can't revert it anymore, as I have already reverted thrice. --Gray Porpoise 15:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone find some sort of chart or something showing the spread of industrialization? I'd greatly appreciate it. And also, would this include the spread of this type of economy to areas such as China and other parts of East Asia, where many factories have sprung up in the last century? P.S. Pardon the fact that that last statement wasn't well researched. I don't really want to get sucked into any arguments.
This article seems to be POV because it neglects recent historic studies, like that of Clark, that argue that these Industrial Revolutions are a myth, concocted by mostly Marxist historians. Intangible 07:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There is some uneditable vandalism in the "References" section. Can someone who knows more fix it?
I do not know much about script writing and the technical aspects of the Internet. However, I have noticed something wrong as this page, when accessed from a google search or a hyperspace link, is redirected to a page that is called "Industrial Revolution" but instead gives "a list of nominees and winners of the 2002 Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards." I think that this is likely a vandalism problem, as this page seems to have experienced it before, and the edit page, when clicked on, brings up the former, solid page about the industrial revolution. I just thought that someone should note this.
Malikar 04:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
"your mother is a problem with wikipedia." "YOUR MOTHER IS A GOOD CONTRIBUTER TO GLOBAL WARMING. and so are monkeys."
I found these sentences in the middle of the article. I tried to edit these sentences out of the article on the "edit" page, but they are somehow hidden. Can anyone fix this? 71.77.79.118 14:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Christine Jones
Comments Moved here from the article by me . Lumos3 12:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this is not appropriate. I suggest removal of the comment on Renaissance and Reformation. Both Renaissance and Reformation are, I understand, deeply or directly connected to the misguidance by the Christian authority. Italian Renaissance eventually occurred after centuries long prohibition of classic studies as heresy by the powerful church (perhaps 700-800 years of intellectual vacuum?), in addition to the contribution from the economic surge from trade and finance and belated literacy improvement for reading the Greek and Roman classics, which didn't come from the libraries in Vatican or churches but from the Islamic world and Byzantine. We cannot also neglect technology transfer from islamic world, India and China, if we talk about scientific and industrial activities at the time of Renaissance. We cannot imagine Galileo without a telescope or discuss his academic achievement without mentioning ealier similar theory published by Abu Ibn Ahmad Al-Biruni, an Islamic astronomer in the 11th century. The early industrial activities in the Northern Italy such as silk textile, glass work, sugar making and even shipbuilding and navigation were mainly so-called adaptation of the technology from the East. (The World Economy by Angus Maddison). Reformation occurred, I understand, after the centuries long abuses of power by the Catholic authority. If we study about the reformation activities in various religions, we will certainly find such reformation as every religion has corrupted abusers and zealous reformers. If we talk about Max Weber style of protestant work ethic, which has a hint of prejudice, we can also find similar quality in confucian work ethic (Trust by Francis Fukushima). If we talk about intellectual breakout, there must be similar other human activities outside of the Western Europe. For example, I would like to point out the Zen movement in the middle age in Japan. It had the Reformation impact to the orthodox sects of Buddhism that were introduced to Japan earlier than Zen. Dogen (1200-1253) established the largest Zen sect. In the following three centuries after Dogen and Eisai, another major evangelist of Zen, coincidentally around the same time of Renaissance in Italy, the cultural revolution of Zen movement in Japan had a deep impact on the Japanese culture in changing almost all aspects, I humbly call this the intellectual breakout in Japan, including not only religious belief but also, philosophy, architecture such as teahouse, painting and other arts such as Noh or Kyogen (comedy), literature and calligraphy, garden designing (rock garden), education, marshal art, swordsmanship (Miyamoto Musashi),way of the warrior (Bushido or Hagakure), military strategy, tea ceremony , Ikebana flower arrangement and even food (shojin ryori). The large portion of this Japanese culture is visible and true even in the 21st century.( One of the source- "History of Japan" by R.H.P. Mason and J. G. Gaigner) Incidentally if you visit the new MoMA, The Museum of Modern Art in New York, you will understand what I mean as the new building is the Zen-influenced " minimalism" design by Yoshio Taniguchi, a Japanese architect. I should point out that the Zen cultural revolution occured during the cruelest and the worst civil war time (sengoku era) in Japan. Ikkyu(1394-1481), a famous Zen buddhist, poet and 'the master of tea ceremony' thrived while living in the free Sakai,a Venice like autonomous city of merchants, where Nayashu instead of warlord ruled the city, a glimmer of early democracy (oligarchy) in Japan. Sakai was also famous for the industrial activities such as mass production center of quality firearms that were developed after the Japanese learned firearms from Fernao Mendes Pinto, an explorer from Portugal in 1543. William Adams(1564-1620) from England and Engelbert Kaempfer from Westphalia (1651-1716) glimpsed the Japanese world after the unification of Japan and near completion of Zen and Confucian reformation of the Japanese society. Particularly Kaempfer, who witnessed arbitrary execution decided by the Protestant city fathers of his own uncle who condemned senseless burning of innocent women in witch-hunts after the saddest Thirty Years War which reduced population of German states by 40%, saw peaceful and prosperous Japan under the rule of autocratic but unique philosopher Shogun Tsunayoshi, who was a patron of learning, emphasized compassion to all animate creation, banned children abandonment in any condition but was disgraced later as a retard by the indigenous historians under the strong warrior (samurai) culture since the 12th century. (As he was such an unique shogun, this is almost similar ostracised situation that most of the Egyptian historians treat the unique Akhenaten in the 18th dynasty who preached 'one god'.) The Western people couldn't believe existence of such a pious*, stoic, law-abiding and prosperous (Genroku era) civil yet heathen country outside of their own Christiant world. As matter of a fact, similar to the original and second translators of the Confucian work ( supeority complexed Christian biased James Legge's original translation and subsequent second translation by Rev. Jennings at the time of Max Weber)*, the original and the second translators/editors of Kaempfer's diary in the early and the late 18th (at the time of Max Weber) centuary toned down, intentionally changed or added deragratory judgement to Kaempfer's scholastic historical record in order to appeal (sell) to the prospective readers who wanted to read about the barbarian country in the East under the superiority feeling of the Protestant society. For Kaempfer, the prosperous Edo (old Tokyo) was more populous yet looked cleaner and safer than the major cities in the Western Europe at that time. Thanks to the higher literacy and more availability of paper than the Western Europe, it had more book stores that sold not only books of bilief systems but also best sellers (Ihara Saikaku) for the commoners. (Kaempfer's Japan by Beatrice M. Bodart-Bailey) Commoners enjoyed not only novels written by popular writers like Ihara Saikaku but also joruri and kabuki theaters that played popular stories written by Chikamatsu Monzaemon and others. This is around the same time of Shakespeare. Concerning the paper technology, there is an interesting observation made by the French. Before the self-imposed isolation (sakoku), one of the daimyo (Date Masamune) instead of shogun sent his emissary (Hasekura Tsunenaga) to the Pope and the king of Spain by the 500 ton ship (San Juan Bautista) made in Japan (1613-1620). The emissary dropped by St.Troppez due to the bad weather. The St. Troppez city chronical observed, "They (the Japanese) blow their noses in soft silky papers, the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they threw on the ground after usage and our people there precipitated themselves to pick them up."
By User:Hiromiando
Secondly this is concerning the argument why Industrial Revolution did not occur in India or China. Quote Some historians credit the different belief systems in China and Europe with dictating where the revolution occurred. The religion and beliefs of Europe were largely products of Judaeo-Christianity, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Conversely, Chinese society was founded on men like Confucius, Mencius, Han Feizi (Legalism), Lao Tzu (Taoism), and Buddha (Buddhism). The key difference between these belief systems was that those from Europe focused on the individual, while Chinese beliefs centered around relationships between people. The family unit was more important than the individual for the large majority of Chinese history, and this may have played a role in why the Industrial Revolution took much longer to occur in China. There was the additional difference as to whether people looked backwards to a reputedly glorious past for answers to their questions or looked hopefully to the future. Unquote
Bringing the belief systems into the cause of the Industrial Revolution is a little strange to me. If we compare various religions even including Confucianism, though each religion has its some unique teachings, surprisingly we find a large common ground in the teachings by Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Moses and Confucius such as human equality, compassion or Golden Rule. Plato's (or Socrates') philosophy was not well known to Great Britain until Benjamin Jowett published an English translation in 1871, quite after the first Industrial Revolution. Even if we compare The Republic of Plato (427-347BC) (or Socrates?) with The Analects of Confucius (551-479BC), we find again surprisingly some major similar (not all) human quality that these philosophers demanded from the ideal leader for the state, though Confucian requirement of 'compassion' was noticeably missing from the concept of Plato(or Socrates?). Both Plato (Socrates?} and Confucius wanted philosophers like themselves to be the leader. It is true that Confucius mentioned 'family' as the basic unit of the state. This is not similar to Aristotle's basic unit, namely 'household' which is composed of men, slave, property,children and lastly wives. There was no economic concept in The Republic by Plato in comparison with Confucius'. It was Aristotle(384-322BC) who introduced economic concept in his Politics. But he pointed out that it was 'household', namely family, slave and property, instead of 'individual' as the basic economic unit of the state. In this sense , Aristotle's household concept is closer to Confucious' family concept than Plato's individual concept. Confucius' China was not structured as slave based economy as in the degree of Greek or Roman. Incidentally, Confucius looked backwards to a reputedly glorious past of Chou dynasty. However it is not only China but also Southern Europe like France or Italy that exibited strong family emphasis in relation to the industrialization according to Trust by Francis Fukushima. Above all, argument by the individualistic Plato that women should belong to the community would surprise family oriented Confucious.
Instead of belief systems, I rather would like to emphasize historical background of China, India or Japan in comparison with the Western countries such as Great Britain, where Industrial Revolution originally occurred as a result of the heavy competition among the countries in the Western Europe with some particular background why it had to be in Great Britain. In spite of the inferior knowledge/technology of nutrition (to Chinese), navigation and shipbuilding (to Arabs and Chinese), when Vasco da Gama made a nearly suicidal voyage to India in 1498, Indian rulers were not impressed by the Portuguese products for the trade exchange. Even in 1793 China demanded Europeans silver (gold) for the payment as almost nothing from the Western Europe impressed them.
We have to realize that all these Asian countries had for a long time self-sufficient prosperous economies, nearly independent each other, though they enjoyed peaceful centuries old trade each other, not like 'Beggar-Your-Neighbor' country to country relationship then prevalent in the Western Europe. In addition, they didn't need the voyage to the West, in spite of the superior navigation technology at the time, for example evidenced by Zheng He's seven naval expedition (1405-1433) or research results by Sanjay Subrahmanyam, as they didn't need to sacrifice such a large magnitude of 9.5-18 million slaves shipped from Africa to Americas and the Caribean Islands over 300 years ('The World Economy' by Angus Maddison) because of their own rich population and secondly didn't have any zeal to propergate their own belief systems to the Western Europe. On the other hand, starting from the lower economic standard than the Islamic World or China, the Western Europe had never-ending hunger for spices, tea or sophisticated /luxuarious products such as silk, silk textile, chinaware or other artistic objects from the East in exchange for silver, gold and even slave (to Islamic countries) and dreadful opium ( to China). In the long human history, it is not the first time that people in lower economic standard but higher in military power conquered the people in the higher standard, evidenced for an example by the fall of the Roman Empire due to the barbarian attack. Western colonization of Asia unfortunately happened by such superior military power of the Western Europe. China itself was conquered by Manchus, economically less prosperous but superior in military power, in 1644 and was occupied during the most important time of modernization including Industrial Revolution until Qing dynasty ended in 1911. The human, economic and social damage must have been enormous for a long time. When economies of the Western Europe and U.S. started to take off around 1820, China's or India's economy in terms of GDP was still by far larger than the Great Britain's. Even Japan's GDP was still larger than that of the U.S. ( The World Economy by Angus Maddison} By the time when China and India realized that they needed Industrial Revolution, it was too late for them as they found themselves under the heavy net of the Western Europe, by then superior economic and military power, evidenced by the two Opium Wars in China (1834-1843 and 1856-1860) and Indian Rebellion War (1857). The Tokugawa shogunate of Japan decided to close Japan (sakoku) by 1639 for its own survival against potential rebellions by Daimyo, which would naturally use influence or military technology of the Western Europe. Japan discarded its excellent shipbuilding capability and precious navigation knowledge to Mexico and perhaps to the Western Europe (Hasekura Tsunenaga) and above all, its military technology for the mass production of firearms and mass utilization of firearms, in which it exceeded any European nation in quanity and quality, according to Jack A. Goldstone (Univ. of California, Davis). Even after the self-isolation (sakoku), Japan knew about the Western colonization situation in India, China and other Asian countries, as it had annual global presentation made by Dutch envoy. At least once a year, the Dutch envoy explained to the Japanese government what happened in the world over the past year. Japan started learning extensively some of the Western medicine and science from around 1720 (Rangaku- technology transfer from the Dutch to the Japanese). Then one day the Japanese saw the black ships of American navy in the Tokyo Bay in 1854.* In spite of the incredible difficulty and sacrifice, Japan rushed to change the government (Meiji Restoration) in 1868 and pursued government-led Industrial Revolution like France and Sweden. The Japan’s Industrial Revolution was approximately 30-40 years behind from the German’s. However, Japan's war with China (1884-1885) and subsequent invasion further delayed China's Industrial Revolution.
By Hiromiando 00:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
It is the first time for me to participate, and it will take time for me to understand the format of Wikipedia that is immensely informative. The other day I saw the C-SPAN show that Gingrich talked about Wikipedia when Alvin Toffler talked about Linux as an example of the expanding non-economic activity to change the future. By the way, I want to see some constructive discussions before draft out another section. ( By Hiromiando 17:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC))
I noticed the writer of the section added the names of historians, namely David Landes and Max Weber. I have never heard that Max Weber could read Chinese. He must have used reference material being translated by Christian biased scholars at the time like James Legge. Using possibly corrupted (biased) second source materal and argue about the difference of the two cultures is nowadays unthinkable. If I am wrong, please correct me. Secondly, I noticed that academic work by David Landes has encountered many critical arguments, just looking through the information available from Wikipedia. I have a feeling that author of this section knows about these critical reviews by other scholars. I rather suggest the author to add some these critical view to the original comment. by Hiromiando 15:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I am not a historian either, but was amazed by the blatant proclamation of superior Western Europe even nowadays in Wikipedia. I didn't even know that Max Weber turned into an expert on Chinese culture. Just to give some global perspective, according to IMF's 2005 GDP(PPP-Purchasing Power Parity basis) data, Asia's (not including the Middle East) aggregated GDP was approximately $23.0 trillion against EU's $12.4 trillion or U.S. $12.3 trillion. Aggregated Confucious countries' GDP was approximately $15.5 trillion. This will hint that other factors than belief systems caused the delay of the Industrial Revolution in Asia or Confucious countries. By Hiromiando 19:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The reference has a reference to per capita incomes in Europe, but there is no citation for China or for the interest rates. Someome might just go into Pommeranz and see what they can make of it.
I cited a source (a reliable one too), why was this reverted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Uisce (talk • contribs).
What's up with the "YOU GUYS SUCK" phrase randomly inserted in the middle of the first paragraph in the intro?
Who sucks? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.242.232.15 (talk) 00:02, February 9, 2007
The topic title organization is spelled wrong. Unlogged accounts are disabled from changing it and I don't want to create an account. Someone else change it.
69.138.180.182 02:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)Jonathan—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.138.180.182 (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
The article is written in British English, as pointed out in a comment at the start of this article, and as per WP:ENGVAR. Greg 11:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The new paragraph on Sam Slater is quite overblown. Slater is not even mentioned in Asimov's "Biographical Encyclopedia of Science and Technology" nor in several other refs examined. The industrial espionage idea is adequately covered in para about Lowell. I am therefore removing the whole paragraph.DonSiano 15:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Romantic Movement - Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is a novel, it's certainly not a short story and Blake's lines are known as 'Jerusalem' by the vast majority of people. They're not actually a self contained poem but are taken from his preface to "Milton" 124.184.31.179 13:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC) joanne mullen 27th feb 2007
As some one who had criticised the content of this article previously, I am glad to find that others have improved it since I last looked. The article is mainly about Great Britain; I have therefore added this word to the title of certain sections. I have also restructured the article, promoting certain sections to a higher level of heading. I have also moved two paragraphs on America into a section of their own. However there is a need for a short section (which I am not qualified to provide) in industrialisation in Contental Europe, and perhpas Japan.
A section on the Lunar Society used to stand out incongrously, I have tried to add more in one place and omit a longer passage which read as follows:
I suspect this was written as a comment on the Protestant work ethic. Some of them were certainly Unitarians, but I am not sure that 'free thinker' in its recent sense is appropriate.
I was expecting to have to deal with the issue of slavery and the industrial revolution, but am glad to find that some one else has done so, adding a useful authorative external source. Peterkingiron 16:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
technicological is not a word. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.184.237.243 (talk) 18:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
Perhaps this article has been tagged with "globalize" before, but I am tagging it again because of the undue emphasis placed on industrialization in Britain to the detriment of any coverage of other countries. Many parts of this article should be split off into another article resembling "Industrial Revolution in Great Britain" or "Technological and industrial history of Great Britain." By no means do I mean to discredit or demean the role Britain had in fomenting the "first" industrial revolution, and certainly the many structural socio-economic characteristics that permitted it to industrialize so early should be elaborated, but that (1) more than half the article is under a "in Britain" and (2) the "Industrial Revolution elsewhere" is a stub of 3 paragraphs, ignores a huge body of history about developments and changes elsewhere. I am currently editing the United States technological and industrial history and I would welcome your comments there and would likewise be glad to assist in globalizing the views presented herein. Madcoverboy 04:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I am 13 and I had a history assignment and this page gave me all the answers thanks wikipedia
I have noticed that there is no information under the subtitle "Continental Europe." If someone vandalized and deleted it, would someone please revert the change. If not, than will someone please fill in the missing information, because it can be confusing to readers, when there is a section with nothing under it. Udora
As this article concerns to some extent British history, and as editors are recommended to use British english throughout (see note in first line), I am considering changing all instances of "sulfur" to the historically and geographically (if not etymologically) correct "sulphur". Other editors please respond if you think this is wrong. Some background here. --Old Moonraker 06:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The bond image caption was recently moved into the article body. I don't think that the image caption text works well in the article body, as written now. The chartered companies did not themselves create the legal and financial circumstances, and it's not relavent to the article, although it is to the image, that the Dutch East India Company issued the first stock ever. I just put it there to explain what the image was doing in the article. Rather than expand the article's scope to cover chartered companies I think it'd be better to just get rid of the image. The now-article-text also repeats, more or less, the sentence in the causes section where I originally put the image. Delete the whole paragraph and the image too? --kop 19:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Like anything related to history, there is a lot of interpretations and politics related to the way things are said. This is why it is not frozen and will evolve with the facts which can be brought to light.
I do have a problem with the idea that prevails in the English speaking countries that the Industrial Revolution commenced in the UK and the major contributions where mainly from USA. In the proposed description, there is not enough facts about other countries, especially in Europe. Things were much more subtle than that and the IR did not start with Watt.
During the XVIII century, in Lyon started already an activity worthy of the name "industry" which was certainly a revolution. This activity extended to several cities in Europe, I have enough information about Lancaster to see that there was a textile industry blooming in the XVIII century. The textile industry started to develop very important technologies which led to the famous Jacqard's loom which is renowed not only for being the modern textile machine but which also introduced programming techniques as it would be used in computers and NC machine tools using punch cards and bands up until recently. Here is a authoritative source for those who can read french which proves all the work that: http://www.cvmt.com/index.htm
I have visited a watch making factory near Sarrebrucken in Germany which shows that there was several machine tools built very early on but there is still a lot of work to gather proper documentation. The milling machines were powered by belts driven by a water mill which was suitable for such miniature industry.
I will contact some french academics who have recently written about the IR and bring these sources here.
For example, in the harness of energy, the steam machine was commenced by Papin in France during the XVIII century and then it was often used into mines of the Lorraine region (North East).
It si now time to recognize that the industrial revolution also happened in France in a very significant manner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Laurentien 18:46, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
Can we get a citation for this quote? I can't find it verified anywhere (Google search for "lowell 'cradle of american industrial revolution'" returned zero pages); meanwhile, this page claims Windsor, VT owns the title – and this page claims that Blackstone Valley, RI is the True Cradle. — Scartol · Talk 21:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Why are there only social effects listed here. There are economical and political effects too.
Here is a list of what they are, please try and include them and more:
Political:
-Rise of capitalist class
-need for factory reforms
-creation of trade unions
-Other parliamentary reforms
Economic:
-Large-scale production
-Expansion of trade, commerce
-rise of towns and cities (+migration of rural people to cities)
-rise of industrial capitalism
-Emergence of colonial Economy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.144.227 (talk) 13:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I have just tried to clarify the paragraph on Savery and have also temporarily copied the edited text into the main Steam power during the Industrial Revolution article. Might I suggest that the paragraph here, and in fact the whole section, should be more in the nature of a very general resumé as the whole article (very high standard IMO) is very wide-ranging already and I see no need here of going into working principles.--John of Paris 09:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Have condensed the Savery paragraph here as promised and edited the the Newcomen and Trevithick ones. Still thinking about what to do with the latter as they are historically far more important than Savery's device.--John of Paris 12:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Compare the article for lightning, which has been tagged as potentially too-long at ~58 kilobytes, with this article, which is ~83 kilobytes. Suggesting split per WP:SIZE Tar7arus 17:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The wikipedia article on the London sewerage system linked in the chemicals section of this article contains the sentence "Construction of the interceptor system required 318 million bricks, 880,000 cubic yards (670,000 m³) of concrete and mortar, and excavation of over 3.5 million tonnes of earth." so the fact request is not neccessary. This is hardly controversial, and I don't think we need to overburden the article with references to facts like this. I am therefore removing it. DonSiano 13:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey, found a little typo on the second paragraph, middle part: Once started it spread. Trade expansion was enabled by the introduction of canals, improved roads and railways.
The "Once started it spread" is a pretty bad sentence, and I suggest you either change it to "Once started, it spread", "Once these ideas were introduced, they spread rapidly", or just completely get rid of it.
Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by ViralSmackers1 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Please excuse my ignorance in asking this question. There appears to be some errors in the references in this article. The read it link in ref 2. Does not work because the author seems to have listed the wrong isbn number. The reference in 5 points to a book that refers to ashton rather than quoting him, unfortunately the reference does not appear to be a suitable source to provide authority to the point. Should I just edit the article or should I (as I am doing) raise the issues here for discussion? --Grahamdoel 11:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that Catasauqua, Pennsylvania was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution in America, since that's where the anthracite iron industry began. I was thinking about adding it in, but I didn't know where. Loof1 (talk) 14:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The Child Labour section of the article claims that childrens' chances of survival did not improve with the Industrial Revolution. Then under "other effects" there is a statistic showing that their chances of survival improved considerably. I'm pretty sure it can't be both...!?
Sulphide should be sulphate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.49.36 (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of
December 23,
2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.
The largest problem with this article is the extreme lack of in-line citations. It starts off well, but tapers off into almost nothing by the time the article is over. It is especially critical to in-line cite material from the references, as the article discusses the theories of different people and potentially contentious issues. Some of these theories, and this may just be my opinion after going through a 90kb article, raise concerns of focus as well. Overall, this article needs a significant increase in the amount of in-line citations, especially in the areas that discuss different theories on aspects of the Industrial Revolution that may be contentious/controversial, or statements such as ""What caused the Industrial Revolution?" remains one of the most important unanswered question in social science." (which is very correctly tagged as "citation needed." Cheers, CP 23:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I suspect that User:Lumos3 may be going a bit over the top in his latest edit as the "American" spelling in question must have been used in the title of the source published in the USA and this IMO should be respected as it is not part of the body of the text. As a matter of interest I remember reading a treatise by the British engineer D.K. Clark published in 1855 where he systematically uses the "American" Z.--John of Paris (talk) 12:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I am also a little sceptical over these references to works published by -ize-using Oxford University Press:
Surely if they are published by OUP - unless they were published by a branch in somewhere like New Zealand, Australia or South Africa - they should use "civilization" and "Industrialization" respectively. Swedish fusilier (talk) 10:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Have you folks nothing better to do with your minds and your time than to philsophize about the differences between British and American spelling practices ? Why not just declare EITHER practice acceptable anywhere and then go off for a spot of tea (or coffee) or grab a snooze ?
The article contains contradicting statements about chances of children to survive early childhood - reference 30 being opposed by reference 32. First states there was no improvement at all, the other says it had improved dramatically. Pavel Vozenilek (talk) 01:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I swear people need to stop abusing Wikipedia. I found at the beginning of this topic some idiot put vibrating dildos the pleasure woman. Since I dont know what to put, can someone fix that. Thank you.206.110.213.223 (talk) 21:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
which group of people supported the free market ideas of adam smith (({charisma))}
I am not convinced that the two works by Yannis Veneris, unpublished in book form, are sufficiently notable, or accessible, for inclusion. Please correct me if I am wrong, otherwise I am inclined to delete. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
This article contradicts itself within a few paragraphs: "The Industrial Revolution led to a population increase, but the chance of surviving childhood did not improve throughout the industrial revolution"
"During the Industrial Revolution, the life expectancy of children increased dramatically. The percentage of the children born in London who died before the age of five decreased from 74.5% in 1730–1749 to 31.8% in 1810–1829." Both sentences have citations... so which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.82.31 (talk) 08:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)