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(William M. Connolley 19:39, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)) +4 oC didn't very likely to me. The Vostok core [1] shows nothing like that. RealClimate [2] (google hit #3 for "HCO temperature") says the term is outdated and the warmth is mostly NH summer. Google hit #4 http://www.iitap.iastate.edu/gccourse/history/paleoclimate/paleo_lecture.html shows us fig 1 (its IPCC '90 fig 7.1, which has no source) with approx +1 oC, but this is schematic only. The IPCC TAR doesn't show it much either http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/073.htm. But I'm not an expert on this (perhaps DF is?... I'll ask).
Stoat. Your systematic attempt to bugger the historical data is appalling. You ought to be locked up for this crime. This is one of the most dishonest threads on the wiki. Because essentially you have ignored the evidence and instead put in what the falsified computer models would have predicted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.183.191 (talk) 20:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
xyouts, 30000, -350, 'D-O events', charsize = 0.5, alignment = 0.5 plots, 30000, -355 plots, [27500,30000,28500], [-378,-355,-378], /continue xyouts, 12500, -325, 'Younger Dryas', charsize = 0.5, alignment = 0.5 plots, 12500, -330 plots, 12500, -370, /continue xyouts, 6000, -310, 'Optimum', charsize = 0.5 plots, 5000, -320 plots, [5000,7000,7000], [-315,-315,-320], /continue
(William M. Connolley 14:30, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)) Before too many links get created... shouldn't this be Holocene climatic optimum (no caps)?
(William M. Connolley 23:51, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)) With the new pic (thanks DF) there seems to be a need to revise the text (anyone for an extended hockey stick :-). The current:
no longer looks like a reasonable summary of the pic (or at least the first bit). Perhaps those interested need to see if they like the pic... one could perhaps quibble that simply averaging all the data is too simple. Or maybe its the best we can do for now. In particular, The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (increases over what?) doesn't seem to fit: the max wiggles are +1.5.
But, if we were to accept the pic, then a better intro would, in my opinion, not pick out the most exciting T rises but start with the global picture and particularise. Thus it could start with something like:
(William M. Connolley 10:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)) No: I'm trying to fit the text of the page to the data in the picture. Mostly, to the thick black line for the overall picture. The thick black line gets about 0.25 oC above the 20C average. Individual records get higher, of course, but this is no surprise. But we're comparing them to the *global* 20C record. If you looked at individual stations you could find some even larger trends for 20C. I'm saying that the overall description should *start* from the global picture and work downwards - not start from the most exceptional records, which present a misleading impression of the degree of warmth then.
There still seems to be a mismatch between the diagram and text of the Global Effects section. The diagram indicates that the peak average Holocene temperature (black thick line?) is less than in 2004, yet the text says the typical shift was probably between 0.5 and 2 °C warmer than the mid-20th century. Since the temperature shift since mid-20th century is less than 0.5C then we are cooler now than then. Something's wrong. --Michael C. Price talk 23:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The milankovitch section (DF?) is completely unref'd. However I left it. I took out the sunspots pic, because (if we believe the M section) its irrelevant. It also doesn't seem to be ref'd in the text. William M. Connolley 20:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The article Middle Jomon about Japan links to Thermal optimum which says merely "The thermal optimum (between 4000 and 2000 BC), was a period when temperatures reached several degrees Celsius higher than the present, and the seas were higher by 5 to 6 meters" with no source. Should Thermal optimum be redirected here? I do not see the statement here about the sea level. Edison 17:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on this subject but I came here because global warming interests me. Could someone speak about the CO2 levels at this time period please. Since this is such a topic of interest now days. Bryanpeterson 16:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
undid William's changes, as the graph clearly does show every line (but the yellow-orange line) going above the most current recorded temperature (2004), and is consistant with the text.
The first thing I thought of when I read this article was: how did the polar bears survive this time period? The earth is not yet as warm today as it was then, and the polar bears are having a hard time now, so I was just wondering how they managed back then. If anybody knows, it might make an interesting addition to the article? -ErinHowarth (talk) 21:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph ends with this: "In terms of the global average, temperatures were probably colder than present day (depending on estimates of latitude dependence and seasonality in response patterns)." It disagrees with the remainder of the article. If this is substantiated by studies using observed or inferred data (as opposed to GCMs) then those studies should be cited. Otherwise, it should be removed as unverifiable. 24.128.186.135 (talk) 13:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
What is the meaning of the word 'optimum' in this context? Is it intended to say the temperature was 'good'/'optimal' in that period, or merely that it was highest? --Raboof (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
The use of the word "optimum" likely comes from the early days of paleoclimatology, when many of the pioneers were Scandinavians. Since stuff like fossil pollen indicated that the mid-Holocene was the warmest time, it was termed as the climatic "optimum" since up in the frigid north the weather's regarded as optimal when it's as warm as possible! In a global context it is indeed a strange term - someone living in North Africa or Southern California might well consider a cooler or moister climate more optimal. It seems most modern papers on the subject use the term "Holocene thermal maximum" - I would actually argue that this page could be moved under that name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssalonen (talk • contribs) 23:23, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Discuss. FX (talk) 17:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
That brings up another issue. Does it educate and inform us about the article? The last climactic optimum? Or represent something else? For example, a graphic of the sea level rise since the last glacier period would not show the minute amount of sea level rise occurring now. Is that relevant to an article about sea level?FX (talk) 02:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Changed the unneeded commentary to make it understandable.FX (talk) 02:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
William M. Connolley wrote "Note that the recent warming is not shown on the graph." William M. Connolley wrote "The warming is easily large enough to be seen."
Which is it? If it's large enough to see, then we can see it on the graph. Are you trying to make a claim here? The facts are that the climactic optimum had global temperatures higher than present, a higher sea level than present, and much less ice at the poles than at present. Well, according to all the scientific evidence that is. Are you trying to imply the present global temperature is higher?
If so, that is certainly relevant, and you should state your sources. FX (talk) 12:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
If you are claiming current temperatures are higher than the climactic optimum, then it would be prudent to share with us your secret sources. As for the graphic, if 2004 is visible on the graphic, then recent temperatures are shown on the graph. There has been no warming (trend) of late, so including 2011 on the graphic wouldn't change what it shows at present.
But please, share with us why you claim the current climate is warmer than the historic Climactic optimum. We would all be most interested. Would certainly change the article a lot. FX (talk) 12:50, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
The ridiculous claim you are making goes against all scientific evidence, since the beginning of climate history. The sea levels from the climactic optimum is probably the best known evidence of the event itself. The solid and repeated evidence of this is the basis of why they even know the event occurred.
2004 Nature, 431, 56-59 DOI: 10.1038/nature02903 Decline of surface temperature and salinity in the western tropical Pacific Ocean in the Holocene epoch Stott, L., Cannariato, K., Thunell, R., Haug, G. H., Koutavas, A., Lund, S.
If you are trying to claim you know more than all the experts and pros who study these things, please show your sources. FX (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
It truly would be an impossible feat for anyone to change the entire historic record, in order to further some agenda. A real encyclopedia, by it's nature untouchable by political winds, gives a rational and reasoned explanation of the recent historic events of our planet.
The HOLOCENE TRANSGRESSION, a well known name to any real student of climate history, appears in thousands and thousands of papers, textbooks and in any real history of sea levels.
http://sp.sepmonline.org/content/sepspqua/1/SEC37.abstract
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/521323?uid=2&uid=4&sid=47698786517957
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00491025/ etc etc Ad nauseam
It's absence from Wikipedia seems hardly an unfortunate accident. It's absence from the article under discussion, is almost criminal in it's ignorance. It's absence, the Holocene Transgression, would almost beg for a creation event. Yet.. I was quite unaware until of late of the concerted efforts by some to try to write their own version of climate history. That the well known climactic optimum has become yet another Wikipedia political article, beset by the well known revisionists, perhaps just another nail in the collective coffin, of reasonable and intelligent who scoff at finding balance and truth when it comes to science here.
Yet hope springs eternal. Hence the oft times useless talk page.
I challenged another editor to provide sources for his wild claims. A quick investigation into history shows there is little chance of that fruitful action. Be that as it may, it has brought forth the crux of the matter, in regards to the current article, despite the dismaying state of things.
(addendum) Since the above I see my scant powers of prediction were on the money. It seems the very essence of the climactic optimum is vacant from certain minds. The original discovery of the warm period was spurred by the raised beaches, or recent origin, worldwide. While the majority are around 3 meters, uplift from rebounding places many much higher. This does not point to a great rise, but the land rising up. This is basic basic stuff of climate history. The inland flooding, the river deltas, this is not even in question amongst the scientific community. Pick up any encyclopedia and it is just there.
Fascinating that anyone would not know this. FX (talk) 16:00, 21 March 2012 (UTC).
That should save a bit of effort. Before some crank starts demanding evidences. Read it and weep. FX (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7x.html
Read it and weep. FX (talk) 16:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The very basis of knowing there was a climactic optimum is the SEA LEVELS and raised beaches around the world, caused by it. Denial of this, and especially removing it from Wikipedia is against everything Wikipedia stands for.
From 3000 to 2000 BC a cooling trend occurred. This cooling caused large drops in sea level and the emergence of many islands (Bahamas) and coastal areas that are still above sea level today. A short warming trend took place from 2000 to 1500 BC, followed once again by colder conditions. Colder temperatures from 1500 - 750 BC caused renewed ice growth in continental glaciers and alpine glaciers, and a sea level drop of between 2 to 3 meters below present day levels.
The period from 750 BC - 800 AD saw warming up to 150 BC. Temperatures, however, did not get as warm as the Climatic Optimum. During the time of Roman Empire (150 BC - 300 AD) a cooling began that lasted until about 900 AD. At its height, the cooling caused the Nile River (829 AD) and the Black Sea (800-801 AD) to freeze.
FX (talk) 16:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Reference number 4, "Tropical Pacific Climate at the mid-Holocene and the Last Glacial Maximum" was used to assert the following, "Average global temperatures were probably colder than today." There are problems with this. First, the editor did not use the complete title of the article, which is "Tropical Pacific Climate at the mid-Holocene and the Last Glacial Maximum Simulated by a Coupled Ocean-Atmosphere General Circulation Model." Those last nine words are crucial. The authors (Kitoh et al) were not discussing the actual mid-Holocene (or LGM). They were discussing the results of their models. When they stated that temperatures were cooler by 0.35 deg, they were saying that this is what they found in their 200 year simulation for the mid-Holocene. They also stated that their input data was limited and left out important factors. The fact that the editor uses this article to support the citation that the mid-Holocene was generally colder than today despite a much higher sea level indicates that his neutrality is suspect and that he can't find legitimate data to support his claim. I will change this paragraph in the upcoming days if no one can present better data.Badamours (talk) 19:30, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
After taking a look, it's obviously original research. Fxmastermind (talk) 20:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
using archive.org because the url no longer works. Fxmastermind (talk) 20:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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The statement "The calculated Milankovitch Forcing would have provided 0.2% more solar radiation (+40 W/m2)" implies that solar radiation provides 20kW/m^2 of energy to the Northern hemisphere, which is an order of magnitude higher than the actual figure of 1-2 kW/m^2. Either the percentage or the wattage is incorrect. 2600:1015:B115:8A79:FB05:50CB:2434:6ED6 (talk) 02:33, 19 September 2023 (UTC)