Level of detail for pre-Tolkien material[edit]

I've just skimmed this so far, but the sources look good and the bits I'm independently familiar with look accurate. But isn't there rather a lot of material that predates 1954 for an article on Tolkien? (Actually Tolkien's influence really picks up in the 1960s.) I can imagine that sources that focus solely on Tolkien might digress into substantial histories of the fantasy genre, but in an encyclopedia I think it would make more sense to put the bulk of the history into an article about the history of the fantasy genre. Some of that would certainly be needed here for background, but we don't reach Tolkien himself, and hence his influence on the genre, until more than halfway through the article as it stands. The article also has to cover the existing fantasy genre's influence on Tolkien, but at the moment all the article does is mention some influences, without going into much critical detail. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much for the useful thoughts. Yes, we can cut down that section, especially as there is Early history of fantasy covering that aspect. On the critical detail of influences on Tolkien, I'm hesitant to go very far here, as we already have J. R. R. Tolkien's influences and multiple subsidiary articles on that subject (Beowulf, Celtic, Classical world, Medieval, Modern, Norse, Shakespeare). But perhaps we can briefly mention some of that without going into detail. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, if we have that article we can make this about Tolkien's influence on the modern genre. Should the article be moved to something like Tolkien's influence on fantasy, then? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:38, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mm, that might be the right answer; alternatively, we could view this as the parent article and just summarize the early stuff. I do think that the before-Tolkien-after structure is correct as it gives a synoptic view of his impact on the genre, but that does not oblige us to cover the "Early development" in any detail. Perhaps what we should do is move it as you suggest, and provide a short paragraph of context, something like "Tolkien's pre-modern influences"? Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:51, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That sounds like it could work. I know you're generating a comprehensive set of Tolkien articles; looking at this from the top down, how would you divide the material? If the general category is Tolkien's relationship with fantasy, then I would think it would be either two articles -- one for influences on Tolkien, and one for Tolkien's subsequent influence on the genre, with the latter summarizing the former, as you suggest; or one long article, covering both. Two articles sounds like the more natural option to me. Alternatively if the more natural division is chronological -- Tolkien's personal history, and his influences, are one topic; the writing of the works and their publication and reception is another topic; and the subsequent impact and influence is a third topic -- then this article is more closely related to articles on the reception of Tolkien's work. But perhaps that doesn't make much difference to the content here. I think mostly what I'm asking for is clear boundaries for the content in this article -- I was considering reviewing it for GA but realized this would be a question I'd have to clear up first. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:57, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Good. We already have an article on influences on Tolkien, so this article will be "the latter summarizing the former" (actually, it'll briefly summarize both the early history of fantasy, and Tolkien's other early influences, as people don't generally call Beowulf fantasy, despite its monsters), giving the "two-article" solution. I'll move the article and do the necessary surgery and summarizing. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As you do the surgery is there somewhere you could deposit the trimmed material? It looked like good stuff to me. We don't have a History of fantasy literature article, but perhaps we should. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was wondering about that. We could work some into Early history of fantasy: I've in fact boldly put "The Enlightenment" there already. Much of the rest is in fact covered there, though perhaps not as well. But we do actually have Fantasy literature ... which is largely historical, so there were multiple overlaps which perhaps we're starting to resolve. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, I've done a first pass of surgery and summary. I think the boundaries are quite a bit sharper now. It would be possible to cut down the modern influences also, but at the cost of making it less clear how Tolkien changed or shaped modern fantasy, i.e. we need a solid baseline to allow readers to see how profound the change was. But that is all discussable at GAN... it'd be great if you felt like taking it on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm at work so have no time for a long read through, but will see if I can get to it tonight or tomorrow. I have a few sources that cover this sort of thing so should be able to give you some comments, and will probably do that before thinking about taking on the GAN, in case it leads to significant changes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

...cont'd: Tolkien's modern sources[edit]

I had a look at Tolkien's modern sources, which includes mention of Haggard, Crockett, MacDonald, Wyke-Smith, Barfield, Wells, Verne, and Morris. I think we could lose the paragraph here about Poe and Wilde since we're not claiming it influenced Tolkien. I think that probably means we need to lose one of the two double-page images, which is a pity.

I've cut the Poe and Wilde para for now, but per your comment below, we might need it back. The Morris and MacDonald images are however essential: we need to say that both men created books that were definitely 'fantasy' in the modern sense, and influenced Tolkien too. Losing either of those breaks the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:23, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In the 20th century section, there's not much correspondence with the article on Tolkien's modern sources. Is this section intended to summarize the state of fantasy at the time LotR came out? If so I think it could be compressed a bit. For example, what's the relevance of Carroll, Barrie, Nesbit and Stockton? Or the conventions of the Lost World genre? Or Blavatsky? On the other hand I can see it's hard to summarize the state of the genre in 1954 without mentioning the history of the genre over the last fifty years, and most of those are relevant to fantasy's development.

Tolkien's modern sources is intentionally "further" not "main". Summary of the field is indeed the intention, and it's necessarily broader than "the bits that influenced Tolkien" (even if we knew). There is also negative definition, what Tolkien visibly avoids, which requires showing those parts of the field that he did not use, such as being satirical about fantasy itself. Actually Tolkien did state that one must never undermine the thing like that... Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

One minor note: if you decide to keep the date of coinage of the word "fantasy", you might use this. The website is run by Jesse Sheidlower, a professional lexicographer who was for a while the OED's American editor. However, I should also mention that I was for years one of the administrators of that database; I don't know if that counts as a conflict of interest.

Very useful. I've split out a new section "Literary genre" and added a bit from Sheidlower. I'd say that was way too indirect to be a noteworthy COI, and the material is both clearly relevant and reliably cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We do have an article on Miracle Science and Fantasy Stories, if you want to link it. That might let you shorten the explanation a bit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Linked. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:06, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

After writing the above I had another read through the 20th century section and I now think that the problem for me is that I don't know what a summary of it would say. It seems a list of aspects of fantasy but there's nothing summative at the end; nothing that says "and here's what the state of fantasy was when Tolkien came along". I think that's what's needed; perhaps some of what I queried above is in fact useful, but I can't tell till I know what summary points it's in service of. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've added more connections to Tolkien (at risk of jumping ahead in the before-during-after sequence) and something in the direction of a summary for the section, which I hope helps to unify the necessarily divergent threads of the genre — by the slightly drastic means of taking a Tolkien viewpoint. I know you want to have the article as JRRT's influence on fantasy, but the intention was to say "modern fantasy has been transformed by JRRT", which demands a slightly broader perspective. I'm therefore not sure we've actually got the title quite right yet (maybe Tolkien's transformation of fantasy conveys the meaning; or indeed "Tolkien and the history of fantasy" may have been correct all along). Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You could be right. I have a few minutes this morning to look at some sources and will dig through some more tonight or tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK.
(much later) I've addressed a lot of comments, thought about the thing, and drawn a diagram (which always helps to clear one's head when things seem to be getting complicated. I'm now sure that this article is about Tolkien's place in the history of fantasy, which includes both inputs and outputs. I've therefore put the title back to "Tolkien and the history of fantasy" which is the simplest title I can think of that describes the article's intention. Suggestions for improved title gratefully received. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Some thoughts from a quick skim:

  • Fixed.
  • Maps, yes, and many other devices. Added a chunk on that aspect. It has called out a lot of Tolkien GAs! This is, I realize, a very high-level article indeed, effectively sitting above even J. R. R. Tolkien and Middle-earth; and it now integrates a large amount of work on the WikiProject. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The paragraphs "The immense success..." and "In 1977, Lester Del Rey..." both cover how trashy some of the follow-up has been.
  • Hm, I wonder... I don't really think so... the logic would be {big mass of inputs} => (selection function) Tolkien's selected inputs => Tolkien's work => its impact and followers. The unimpacted stuff is for other articles, surely... though we can certainly mention reactions against the Tolkienian tradition... I suppose we could even say "and XYZ was uninfluenced by Tolkien" but I think we'd need a source for that. So I think we're probably OK on this aspect.

More tonight, I hope. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Many thanks! Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:06, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments[edit]

Starting a separate section for convenience. These comments are a bit random, since I'm generating them partly as I read through and partly as I wander about the house thinking about the article, so I may be contradicting myself, and I am sure only some of these will be useful.

  • Yes, moved.
  • Not sure we need to do anything so drastic: I've just moved the children's book discussion to "Literary genre" as that's actually its theme, i.e. was fantasy part of children's literature or what. Going into subgenres would take us far off-topic: we don't really need to discuss ghost, urban, or satire here, for instance.
  • OK, if we're going to do the Saint-Exupery thing and remove everything we can do without, that's one. It's a change of focus to match the change of title (ah, yes) and we should go all the way with it.
  • Removed.
  • Well, if we're being tightly focused on Tolkien, we could ditch the entire paragraph. Let's try that now.
  • I worked on that article. It's an odd book: Tolkien disliked the use of a mechanism (anti-gravity), preferring the fantastic (and mystical or religious) elements. I don't find it a stretch to label it a fantasy; it's also clearly allegorical and mythical, so the SF bit with the rocket ship is just a plot device, and surprise surprise the bit that Tolkien found least good.
  • I find Yolen good. Not sure the "category" and "tradition" mean anything very different.
  • Yes. I've removed lots of other sorts of fantasy and said "high fantasy" a bit more.
    Jesse's already updated that sfdictionary.com entry; see this. He found a bunch of earlier uses that are bracketed as not being clearly this usage, but his first cite is for 1971 and interestingly it appears that Le Guin used the term. Apparently Alexander gave that text as a talk in 1969 so that's why the first printed use is not from him. Not sure there's any impact on this article, though. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I've added a brief statement; I agree that it flip-flops between taking it seriously and cynically, so it's only just usable.
  • I think "literate" just means "well-written" here, not "literary" (whatever that would mean: Tolkien would have abhorred it, indeed I could easily cite that if it became necessary...). But the publishing rush thing is narrated repeatedly, so I've chopped the mention here.
There seems to be nothing usable. A Mythlore bibliog. article mentions Guying Gyre no. 7/8 [n.d. (1977)] ed. Gil Gaier, a fanzine, which has an essay by Robert E. Blenheim on Swann (pp. 13-20); Blenheim "thinks Swann a more delicate writer, more of a miniaturist, than is Tolkien."
  • If we were trying to cover all of fantasy then it'd indeed be gigantic, but with the more limited scope of what influenced Tolkien and what Tolkien then influenced, "the main points" only per GAN, then it's rather more manageable, and I'm pretty happy with the result so far.
  • Yes, the change in focus has left it becalmed. Let's do without it for now; there clearly is a possible link to Tolkien's art and onwards again to the digitally created fantasy characters ... perhaps that one image can stay. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New title[edit]

The changes you've made in response to my comments above look good, so I won't respond individually. Now that you've changed the title I want to ask about scope again. I jotted down a few questions based on another read through, but on reflection I think there's not much point in them until I understand your intention for the article. Where would this article differ from a History of fantasy literature article? Would a good summary statement be "The history of fantasy that is relevant to Tolkien's work -- his influences, and the strand of fantasy that descends from him"? If so, I think I prefer the earlier title, since we already have an article on his influences and a single articles talking about his impact on the genre makes sense. But this title talks about fantasy both before and after Tolkien, so how should it differ from the sum of an articles on his influences and an article on his impact? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:51, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As discussed above already, this article is a before=>Tolkien=>after, i.e. a map of how Tolkien changed fantasy. That is a component of the total history of fantasy, in particular mainly of high fantasy. The "Tolkien's influence on fantasy" title fails to cover the question of what he selected from the pre-existing river of fantasy. It differs markedly, too, from the article J. R. R. Tolkien's influences, which spans everything from classical and medieval to languages and personal experience including the First World War. On his impact, the only thing we currently have is Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien which covers everything from parody to music and fan culture, so again, its scope is far wider than just fantasy; and it's basically just a list, not a full article with scholarly analysis. In short, this article has a distinct scope and focus, and its title accurately reflects its content. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The scope isn't clear to me, but it's clear to you, and I know you've put a lot of thought into this. I'm going to step away and let someone else comment, and perhaps review for GA. I have no problem with the content as it stands -- it's well-written and concise -- but I just can't tell whether there is material missing or structural issues because I don't understand what the content should be. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:25, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Shame. Ok, thanks for the comments which have been very useful. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think the article structure would be easier to understand and less likely to duplicate other articles if there was a split to Tolkien's influences from fantasy (maybe a merge into existing articles) versus Tolkien's influences on fantasy. It seems odd to combine both topics in one article. (t · c) buidhe 18:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It isn't odd at all. The article is about Tolkien's place in fantasy, or if you like his transformative effect upon it. That requires a look at how it was before he came upon the scene; what he took from it; what he did in the area; and what happened as a result. Splitting this up would destroy the connections of this narrative, and would introduce pointless duplication as the context and details of what he did would be in each fragment. The 'big picture' requires that the reader gets to see all the parts together, that is the nature of any transformation account. That his impact was revolutionary is amply cited in the article but the claim, however reliably cited, comes to life when not just cited but demonstrated in all its parts. That is what this article does. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Talk:Tolkien and the history of fantasy/GA1

Comment on GA fail[edit]

The review is closed, so rather than posting there I'm posting on the talk page. (I said I'd step away but now a review's been done I feel I can comment again.) I can see why Chiswick Chap argues it's not OR, but I also see Buidhe's point. With a title of "Tolkien and the history of fantasy" one could argue that a source discussing either one in isolation is relevant, but that's part of my problem with the topic/title -- it's too broad and inchoate. What prevents this article from mentioning Conjure Wife by Fritz Leiber, a very important novel in the history of fantasy but one that had nothing to do with Tolkien's influence or influencers? Only that it is not connected to Tolkien by any source. But if that's a good reason not to mention it, Buidhe is right that we need scholarly sources that connect the two topics to mention any work of fantasy. And then we're back to needing a more specific title again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think this is not OR in the narrow sense of "not being cited", but it is OR in the sense of WP:SYNTH.
The article should also have been quick failed under criterion 5 (stability) given the number and size of edits recently. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 03:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
See thread below. The article is not going to remain in its present form or under the current title. I'll probably split the article as this seems to be the consensus, so we won't have a problematic "and" in the title and the focus will be simple and straightforward. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

History of fantasy vs. Tolkien and the history of fantasy[edit]

I’ve edited the History of fantasy article back to its state on 5 July. The edits since then have completely changed the article. Looking at the diff between the pre-move and current articles [1], I think every word has been replaced. As for Tolkien, the last diff before the move[2] includes 28 results on ctrl+f "Tolkien"; but in the latest revision[3], ctrl+f "Tolkien" returns 146 matches. I don’t think there is any text in common between them.

BTW that article's talk page now redirects here.

Also, the edit summary for the move reads "match article contents, which are organized around the author", which is inaccurate. The "Modern Fantasy" section is organized around Tolkien, but that's only about half the article at most.

1. @Chiswick Chap: Why did you replace the old article rather than starting a new one? There have been over 380 edits since the move and you did all but a handful.

2. What is the purpose of this article? It's not a history of fantasy, it's not Tolkien's influences, and it's not directly about Tolkien's influence on fantasy (there was an article by that title, but I can't find old diffs, due to the page move I think). All three seem reasonable but this is a mishmash. It looks like "history of fantasy but Tolkien-centric", which is an OR/WEIGHT issue. Especially in the last section, there is little discussion of fantasy apart from Tolkien.

CohenTheBohemian (talk) 03:14, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for doing that. There has never to my knowledge been a Tolkien and fantasy article before; that name was recently briefly explored for this article before it was moved back to its current title. It is clear that this article needs rework, possibly splitting as you suggest. I'll think what can best be done to go with what people want. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Update: I've used a small amount of text (on the input side) and a couple of images in Tolkien's modern sources; there isn't enough on the input side for a separate Tolkien's fantasy sources or whatever. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On your questions, I do not wish to go into defensive mode as it is never productive, but I can tell you what happened, as can be seen from the talk page. I intended to add a bit of emphasis on T as there were many sources which stressed his role in transforming fantasy. This suggested a change in title. That led to requests for more change and deletion of non-T material, which I had not intended. I did my best to keep them happy. The rest you know. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can't see the talk page discussion you mention. As far as I can see, topics on this page jump from 2017 ("Change title and merge") to 11 July, after the move ("Level of detail for pre-Tolkien material"). Please could you link it.
It's just the threads above this one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More importantly: I've just been told that my cut-and-paste move isn't allowed as it fractures the edit history, which is legally required, and telling me to ask an admin to do a history merge. It might be better if people stop editing this page, History of fantasy, and Tolkien's influence on fantasy until we can reach consensus. WP:FANTASY seems like a good place. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh I see. An alternative would be to revert this article to its old state and move it back to its old name. But Tolkien's influence on fantasy is a well-defined topic (a subset of this article) and there seems good agreement that the narrower scope would be better in its case. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've reverted this article to its old state and its old name, so that "Tolkien and the history of fantasy" just redirects to it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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