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(lets' continue there. --Irpen 15:09, August 22, 2005 (UTC))
Regarding the correction: in "Polish Catholic dominance" vs "oppression", I agree that "dominance" is a softer term, which we may keep for now as a less controversial. However, I want to make sure I understand the call to "cite sources". Is this a call for sources that would say that the policies of PLC towards Orthodoxy have, with time, evolved to what amounts to oppression? To start with, I can refer anyone to Kostomarov (for sure not a Polonophobe among the Historians in the RU Empire). There is even a discussion at his talk. I could quickly look up for more on this from other respected historians. Did I understand the "cite sources" call correctly? It just happens that this seemed to me too obviously known. I am not claiming this is how it was. All I am saying, is that many historical works say so without a doubt. --Irpen 19:27, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I reread several chapters from Kostomarov myself. If anyone doubts that the word "oppression" is appropriate, I recommend reading the chapters from his book devoted to the following historic figures available online: Bohdan Khmelnytsky [1], Konstanty Wasyl Ostrogski [2], Peter Mogila[3]. Not only Kostomarov is known for his views at times deviating from "official" line of thought in the RU Empire. The conclusion I make here, is based not on his opinions, but on the quotes he makes from official documents and the older chronicles. I could find his book online only in Russian, sorry. Additionally, I recommend the following chapters from modern Britannica's "History of Ukraine" article:
If EB's "History of UA" article isn't enough, I can recommend EB's "History of PL" article, particularly the following subsections of "The Commonwealth" chapter: "Wladyslaw IV Vasa", "The Cossacks", "Bohdan Khmelnytsky". I happen to have full access to EB and these are just a couple of quotes:
it goes further:
Can we return "oppression" in view of this? --Irpen 00:51, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Halibutt, I am sorry I replied above in the manner that you "personally hate". I signed the responces and it seemed clear to me who said what. That you have different preferences, I had no way of knowing. I also sorry you "fail to understand the rest of my statement". Tell me which statement, I will try to rephrase it in better English.
Now, let's first separate two issues: your general disagreement with a particular scholarship and the issue at hand, which is whether it's appropriate to use "oppression" in the article (which is History of Kiev and not Polonization, Polonophobia, Kostomarov or the cryticism of his books). The quote from Britannica alone justifies it, I think. The EB isn't infallible of course, but its History of PL article cannot possibly be Polonophobic, since it must be written by some respectable scholar at EB's request, and most historians tend to be more philic rather than phobic towards the nation they study as their lifetime jobs. Then again, EB may be mistaken, but it is a very solid source which makes it up to a challenger to disprove with no less respectable sources. If you want to take this upon, I will be glad to help with other encyclopedias. I have full access to several and can look this up for you.
Now, I would be interested in your opinion when you finish reading, but would you mind moving this discussion to talk:Nikolay Kostomarov? BTW, I had a discussion there with another editor, which I hope, you find interesting. I say, let's move this there. What do you say? --Irpen 02:44, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
The article now claims that "Kiev was probably founded in the 5th century". This claim appears to be far-fetched as the date of the 5th century appeared only during Brezhnev era to suit the political demand for the celebration of the 1500th anniversary of Kiev. Archeological arguments sometimes raised to support the 5th century hypothesis are not adequate to confirm the existence of a city because people settled on hills near rivers since the stone age and in this fashion nearly every major European city can be asserted to be thousands years old. The accepted UNESCO standard for the date of city founding is the date when the city was first mentioned in written documents. By this standard, Kiev was fonded in the 8th century because the first written mentioning of Kiev was in a letter sent by Khozar Jews to a synagogue of Fustat, near Cairo. Arabic sources also first mention Kiev at about the same time.--Pecher 22:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Irpen,
Why did you remove this text from the main body of the article on the history of Kyiv? I took it from an article by the respected Ukrainian historian Omeljan Pritsak, and it seems to be to be directly relevant to the question of when the city of Kyiv was founded, and by which people. --203.129.40.172 00:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Pritsak, in his essay "The Pre-Ashkenazic Jews of Eastern Europe" (in the book "Ukrainian-Jewish Relations in Historical Perspective") states his belief that Kyiv was founded as a stronghold by the Khazars in the first half of the ninth century, based on the archaeological finds of the Saltovo culture discovered in the city in the 1970s. According to Pritsak, the Saltovo culture was typical for all Khazarian strongholds of the ninth-tenth centuries. With the opening of trade routes, first (after 843) the land route Regensburg-Itil and then (after 880) the fluvial route "from the varangians to the Greeks", Kyiv acquired importance as the trading station Sambata (literally "Saturday", as the market was held there on that day). Pritsak claims to have established the Khazarian origin of the toponymy of old Kyiv as represented in the Rus' Primary Chronicle; those claims are presented in his book "Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the Tenth Century", published jointly with Norman Golb.
Pritsak states that the original inner town of Kyiv consisted of only one borough (konets), the "Kopyrev konets", a name derived from the important Khazar tribal group "Kabar/Kapyr". In the twelfth century the borough had two gates: the "Podol" gate connected "Kopyrev konets" with the commercial industrial suburb (Podol), while the "Zhidovskye" or "Jewish" gate linked the (later) "Iaroslav town" (imperial Kyiv after 1030) with this borough. The western and southern areas of the affluent "Kopyrev konets" were still called "Zhidove", or "the Jews", in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. In the commercial suburb of Podol, the main district was called "Kozare", or "the Khazars"; there, near the harbour on the Pochaina stream, was the Khazarian customs office (Pasyncha beseda).
Pritsak also considers the so-called Kievan Letter discovered by the Hebrew scholar Norman Golb among Hebrew texts from the Cairo Geniza to be a further indication of the continuing presence of Khazar converts to Judaism in Kyiv in the tenth century. He considers that the Kievan Letter was issued around 930 by the Jewish community of Kyiv ("modi'im anu lachem kahal shel Kiyyov" = "we, the community of Kyiv, inform you"). He states that the names of the signatories are of both Hebrew and Khazarian origin. Of special importance is that the father of one signatory had the designation "Kybr", which according to Pritsak is the usual Hunnic equivalent to the Turkic form "Kabar/Kapyr". Pritsak considers that that finding connects the Kievan letter and the "Kopyrev konets" of the Kievan Primary Chronicle.
could not use it directly. If I viewed it as nonsense, I would have deleted it, not moved to talk.
Interesting alternatives by acknowledges scholars may be mentioned as well but not such that they create an impression of being eqaully accepted in general. I will try to work something out of your version when I get to it. --Irpen
Comments (and especially references) about this somewhat dubious event are welcome at Talk:Kiev_Offensive#Recent_Irpen.27s_edit.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I changed "pro-Ukrainian" to "nationalist" for clarity. "pro-Ukrainian" implies that there were only two positions, the other one being, presumably, "pro-Russian". This muddles matters somewhat. The political landscape consisted of several dynamics: the pro v anti soviet aspect, the nationalist v non-nationalist bit, and the language problem (Russian v Ukrainian v Something in between). This seems like an excessively long explanation of a single word edit, but I think the merit is there. Terms like "pro-Ukrainian" can mean alot of things or nothing at all, and should be chosen carefully. If I missed the point (ie: the editor meant "intelectuals favoring the use of the Ukranian language" rather than nationalists), then the sentence should be reverted and qualified.
On a similar note, there ought to be some discussion of the interaction of Ukrainian and Russian in Kiev (and in Ukraine as a whole), in brief, because the question isn't simple. Ukrainian and Russian are not particulary distinct (meaning there is no clear geographical boundary that indicates "east of here:Russian, west of here:Ukrainian"). I'd go so far as to point out that almost nowhere in Ukraine is "text-book" Ukrainian spoken: the variations are great, progressing from "pure" Ukrainian in Galicia to "pure" Russian well within Russia itself. Between the two extremes, lies an entire spectrum that mixes the two in varrying quantities. Kiev Ukrainian lies closer to the Ukrainian end, of course, but is heavily diluted by Russian, this is not a simple product of the dominance of one language over the other, although this played an undeniable role, so much as it is the exponent of the normal interplay between the two. Just a suggestion. 128.197.130.220 18:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Would be appreciated. Hamm's 'Kiev: a portrait' ends in 1917: could anybody recommend any English language book or academic article which would have information on history of Kiev after 1917? I have access to a major US library center and would like to see if any book has information on the accusation discussed two sections above. I couldn't find a single useful book for 20th century history of Kiev in English using Google Print, Schoolar and Amazon. On the sidenote, I'd suspect there should be much more material written in Russian and Ukrainian. Unfortunately I can't help with that, as I have no proficiency in these languages,--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I have a book which mentions a "Kiev Massacre" of Jews that occurred in the 1880s. From this article I can only find the event in the 1940s. Does anyone have any information that might assist me? Thanks for replying via my talk page. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 03:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
According to other quite reliable sources Batu Kaani (Khan) conquered Kioava (Kijev) on December 6, 1240 thus ending the Kijev (Kievan) Rus Principality. The Mongols devasted the mainly wooden town quite completely. One can read an eye witnesser describtion of the time five years later; They laid a siege a long while vnto Kiow, the chiefe citie of Russia, and at lenght (December 6, 1240) they took it and slue the citizents. Whereupon, traveiling throught that countrey, wee found an innumerable multitude of dead men skulles and bones lying here and there all vpon the earth. For it was a very large and a popolous citie, but it is nowe (1246) in a manner brought to nothing for there doe scrace remaine 200 houses, the inhabitants whereof are kept in extreame bondage. This by Franciscane monk Ion de Plano Carpini from his Finnish version text "Mongolien mailla" (On the lands of Mongols), also published in English with the title "The long and wonderful voyage of Frier Iohn de Plano Carpini".
Also the truth of the Soviet installed radio controlled time fused mines in Kiev in 1941 is much more interesting than in main article published typical Soviet War Propaganda based exaggerating version. The Germans lost total less than 350 soldiers (in the first main explosion in their local military adminstration center alone about 250 deads) and they managed to de-active about 85 per cent of the installed mines. I hope I have time to describe the full story why the Germans were able (with Finnish help) to prevent the total destruction of Kiev by these radio mines. Example of the German Engineering Troops work was the Kiev main Railway Station building, which in fact was exploded by the Germans themselves during theit retreat in October 1943. If someone is interested to see photos of the station building still standing intact on September 13, 1943 and the actual explosion they are available in page 164 in the "Lokomotiven ziehen in den Krieg Band 3" published by Verlag Josef Otto Slezak, Wien 1980. ISBN 3-900134-64-2. The station building was built according to drawings made by Architect A. Verbiski in 1932. After the war it was completely rebuilt by the Soviet Union. On page 161 are photos of the Dniepr southern railway bridge between Kiev II and Darnitsa as repaired by the Germans taken on March 7, 1943 and after it was exploded by the retreating Germans on September 29, 1943. The northern railway bridge was photographed on May 25 and October 7, 1942 in page 161. This bridge was opened into service by RVD Kiew on December 15, 1942. More photos are available in Band 1, ISBN 3-900134-23-5 Wien 1977, pages 151 and 155 taken during the German evacuation of Kiev in September 1943. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.87.13 (talk) 06:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
What improvements do we need to make so this article is excellent enough to be featured? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.166.100.2 (talk) 12:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
i removed links that were duplicates, to definitions of words i think can be commonly assumed as understood, and for dates and years where the event listed were not in those articles. the last should be carefully checked before added. i notice a lot of articles link to a year, when not really appropriate. as always, if i inadvertently removed a link that someone feels is relevent, i wont revert (at least without a good solid reason), and apologize in advance for not seeing the relevance.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
As the above semiprotection was some time ago I'd like to discuss whether it's still necessary. As well as welcoming comments from regular or sometime editors I've also notified the protecting sysop, Alex Bakharev (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
--TS 04:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Kiev was not the capital of the proposed Grand Duchy of Rus since it was never ratified. It was a part of the Treaty of Hadiach but when it came to ratification at the Sejm, this point was unilaterally eliminated, making the whole agreement a farce. So it is totally wrong to argue with this ratification even if there is no doubt it took place.
My pointed source is:
Т.Г. Таирова-Яковлева Иван Выговский // Единорогъ. Материалы по военной истории Восточной Европы эпохи Средних веков и Раннего Нового времени, вып.1, М., 2009: Под влиянием польской общественности и сильного диктата Ватикана сейм в мае 1659 г. принял Гадячский договор в более чем урезанном виде. Идея Княжества Руського вообще была уничтожена, равно как и положение о сохранении союза с Москвой. Отменялась и ликвидация унии, равно как и целый ряд других позитивных статей.
Professor Tairova-Yakovleva is not pro-Russian, she was honored by the former President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko which is shown here.
Moreover, the Russian garrison of Kiev commanded by Knyaz Yuri Baryatinsky never gave up Kiev so it was not just de jure not the capital but also de facto!
I want to appeal to Mibelz and Galassi: Please, respect the rules of Wikipedia! Either you can disprove what I've written or not!
Sources about the ratification of the treaty ARE NOT sources about the ratification of the Grand Duchy of Rus and Kiev as its capital! I expect sourced quotes that are as concrete and pointed in this issue as my source is. --Voyevoda (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this some propaganda or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.92.185 (talk) 23:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Both this article and the Kiev article have versions of the same statement:
These statements do not make sense because they have a double negative. I imagine that they mean something like: "Not one of Polish-Russian treaties concerning Kiev has been ever fully ratified by the Russian Government."--Toddy1 (talk) 19:41, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 14:35, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
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There is no "Kiev", only Kyiv, as the main article on the city is titled, along with everything else associated with it. See: Timeline of Kyiv—Preceding unsigned comment added by DanyloPushkar (talk • contribs) 18:47, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
The request to rename this article to History of Kyiv has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using ((subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.)) and ((subst:RM bottom)) and remove the ((Requested move/dated|…)) tag, or replace it with the ((subst:Requested move/end|…)) tag. |
History of Kiev → History of Kyiv – I don't think there's much to say. The article on Ukraine's capital has been titled Kyiv for a while, and relevant articles about the city such as Name of Kyiv, Kyiv Metro, Kyiv Oblast, Kyiv metropolitan area, Subdivisions of Kyiv, Transport in Kyiv and Timeline of Kyiv use this name too. It only makes sense for this article to use Kyiv as well. Super Ψ Dro 19:40, 12 August 2021 (UTC)