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This archive page covers approximately the dates between 17 November 2005 and 06 April 2006. See Archive 1 for discussions between 22 October 2001 (page creation) and 17 November 2005.
I would like to know go to use this page please. I have an opinion about generation x and y. I think that generaton y should beging in 1975/1976 and the end of the Vietnam war (most of the troops returned home from the Vietnam war between 1972-1975). If the beginning of the "baby boomer generation" began 1945, 1946, then the baby boomers would be about 30 in 1975,1976. I would think that they would be prepared enough to marry and have children by then. Also, many of the troops of the Vietnam war came home by 1975 and it was the beginning of the discos craze (from what I learned in history). I would like to say that 1975/1976 (at the latest) is the beginning of generation y and 1990 (before the Gulf War) is the cutoff of generation y. 1991 with the beginning of the Gulf War sets the pase for generation z (or what you would refer to as the "new silent generation.)." The Clinton administration, the War in Iraq, the even more changes in technology, the internet and other changes in the 90's are definite markers of generation z. If we are figuring out a fifteen year generational gap then this generation will end in 2006. If we are figuring out a twenty year generational gap, then this generation would end in 2010. Then comes what society would say generation ? and what I would say "the generation the best is yet to come." Anyways I am in my late 20's now and I think that I am way too young to be labled as "ancient." I cannot really relate to generation xers per se as they think that "I'm too young, I was born very late 1976). P.S. I was also a sociology major (graduated in 2000 with honors and extra classes). I have lots to discuss about this!!!! Please e-mail me at tlh102000@yahoo.comSunshine10 23:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
In the course of a lecture in one of my sociology classes, there was a section devoted to a distinctive and very small generational subdivision that falls between both X and Y. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Gen X ended in 1980, or MAYBE 1981, it has been noted that those born in the years 1982/3 and POSSIBLY 1984 exhibit certain societal and cultural traits, habits and preferences that-- while combining certain aspects of GEN X, and especially GEN Y-- render them unique in their own right. This generational partition has been occasionally referred to as the Early Y or Cold Y generation.
Reasons for this partition include attitudes about technology, societal norms and, in an indirect sort of way, areas like the global political order, etc. This generation was the very last to (assuming born in 1982 or 83) obtain cognizance or self-awareness before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. Therefore they were the last generational segment with any memory of life during the Cold War. They were also the last to have some ideas of what life was like when the modern information based society was in its transitional/formative years, rather than the current all-pervasive and totally integrated form it had taken by the early 90's. In other words, they were the final generation to be able to compare and contrast the late Cold War/Space Age society with the Post-Cold War/Information Age society using their own personal experiences and memories.
Consequently, one can see these characteristics manifest themselves in areas like the approach to contemporary technology. For the regular generation Y, modern information technology has always been "there", whereas Early Y grew up during the critical period of technological evolution in which the current bedrock technologies on which our info-based society relies were moved out of the technical/specialist realm and into the consumer applied realm, often when traits of each area were mixed and indistinct, giving Early Y a rather odd viewpoint that combines the outlook of the specialist/technical segment of the previous generation (but much more widely disseminated) with the integrationist outlook of the later Y generation.
In terms of political and societal outlook, there are also noticeable differences. Whereas Gen X has now largely has had time to fall into the standard orthodoxies of political participation (I mean that in a relativistic sense, not a judgmental/absolute sense, i.e. if you are on the far left in the U.S., a Trotskyite labor group could be considered an orthodox political outlet), and mainstream Gen Y has either done so also or (for a wide segment of it) remained apathetic or non-participatory. Early Y, on the other hand, has manifested tendencies towards a less common form of what has been termed "policy-centric pragmatism", which places a lower value, relatively speaking, on constructs like ideology or formalism. When what could be termed ideology does manifest itself, the Early Y's seem to have taken-on an unusual tendency to look to often imported belief or value systems that lie outside the scope of those normally brought into the U.S. from abroad.
Speaking in terms of societal mores and values, Early Y seems to be in limbo between the post-Sexual Revolution norms of Gen X and the emergent ones of Gen Y (which have been described by some commentators as simply the normalization or commoditization of those of Gen X). This includes an apparent embracing of the basic outlooks of Gen X, but a reluctance to carry to their logical extremes, as we see occurring now with Gen Y. In many areas, Early Y seems to embrace the more cynical worldview exhibited by X while rejecting some of what they view as crassness or immoderation. It has been remarked that in doing so, as Early Y matures they have begun to look several generations behind X in forming certain societal/sexual constructs.
In any event, this is me basically regurgitating the lecture presentation from class; some of the selected readings I've skimmed on the subject are much more complex. I would appreciate if someone could look further into this area and possibly make an edit on the Gen X article. Depending on the amount and nature of information on the subject, I'm considering forming a separate article entitled Early Y Theory. Any input is always appreciated.
Anyone remember the Simpsons, first Gulf War, their childhood through the 80's and the musical burst of eurodance, grunge rock and gangsta rap from the late 80's and early 90's. There was I think a smaller generation between that of Gen X and Gen Y which were also the offspring of Baby Boomers - which my parents were. I know many people born from 1982 - 1984 who agree that they do not belong to Gen Y, and most of them refer to themselves as Gen X'ers - however I recently remembered in an episode of The Simpsons where someone asked Lisa and Bart what generation they were - and they said they were the MTV Generation, when asked how that felt like they replied "eh..." referring to the nihilistic feeling of that period with most kids and teens living through that generation. I do not agree in classifying the children of the 80s as Gen Y because they are the new Millennial children - they are in fact Thatcher's Children but not the Newmills in my opinion. I believe there should be a re-evalutation of the late Gen X - making those born from 1976 to 1984 part of the MTV Generation seeing as MTV was only launched by August 1st of 1981. Piecraft 20:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, however there is a large difference as can clearly be acknowledged by those of Generation X who believe their generation resides in the late 60s up until the mid to late 70s, whereas those of us from the early 80s would not categorise ourselves under Generation Y. Ask anyone born from 82-84 they will state they are either part of Generation X or of another altogether, they will not hold allegiance to Generation Y because there are far too many differences between them and those born in Generation Y. Piecraft 22:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
This Talk page has gotten far too long (as well as being a complete unorganized mess). I archived the older discussions, and I'm cleaning up the archive a bit as well. ManekiNeko | Talk 23:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Are there any records of how Douglas Coupland got the inspiration for his book title? Ten years before the novel came out (set in Southern California) Penelope Spheeris released The Decline of Western Civilization (1981), the not-so-well remembered prequel to her popular documentary about late '80s metal bands. The first film dealt with the Los Angeles punk rock scene in 1979-1980 and one of its bands was named Generation X. This might be a more distant allusion to Malcolm X, but it's the earliest use I've seen of the later generational term. Durova 06:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"Paul Fussell, who wrote a book called Class, which is about class stratification in the States and for people who didn't want to be part of the class merry-go-round, he invented the 'X' class, and I read that and I thought, gee, that sounds an awful lot like this particular group of people. So that was where the term came from." [1]
Generation X is now described and managed by ManekiNeko. They are the self proclaimed authority on Generation X and have commandeered this discussion page to prove how informed they believe to be. If that’s not Generation 'In-between X&Y' behavior, I don't know what is. See the now 'archived' material (Maneki didn't feel it expressed 'their' page's message) for explanation of this conclusion.
--Big Rig 15:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"When talk pages — like article pages — become larger than 32kb, they cannot be edited by some users because of browser page size limits. Moreover, such large texts become bulky and difficult to navigate, and place a burden on users with slow (dialup) connections."
It is therefore customary on Wikipedia to periodically archive older discussions on pages that have become large.
It's becoming counterproductive warding off these crackbabies from the 1980s. You're not legitimate X'ers!! But, I feel your pain. And, if I was in your situation, I'd do whatever it took to become an X'er, because the generation is sweettttt!!! . And, that GenY group is as stupid as they come (but they know how to use IM messenger!!!) Therefore, if you want to be a GenX'er, take the test. If this defines you, then welcome aboard! Else, getta steppin'.
I have some things to add to this list...
....My list could go ON and ON and ON!
My birthdate: October 7, 1972, a smack dab in the middle Bonifide Gen Xer and proud of it!
Long live the 80's!!!! (added by Heath)
In summary, I would emphasise that "pop culture" is indeed not a very accurate measure of generational divide, as political circumstances can have a much more real inluence thereupon. (added by Adolphe Marx)
I'm happiest with a 1979 end date for Gen-X. Add 18 years and you'll end up with 1997, when the pop songs of the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears began to become popular, something that didn't jive with the rest of 1990s pop culture.
Still, it feels rather arbitrary. Anything from 1976-1982 seems debatable to me. Those years have traits of X and Y.
Juppiter 02:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm bemused to find that Gen-X supposed goes all the way back to 1961. That's baby boomer territory. My take is that when the term was first coined, it was intended to describe people born in the 70's and perhaps early 80's and wasn't intended to describe a genuine whole generation. Maybe a span of 10 or even 15 years. Who is officially defining Gen-X to stretch from 1961 to the early 80's? Where is this coming from? -- KarlHallowell 06:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Strauss and Howe wrote and coined phrases a bit too soon, and should have thought about those fuzzy lines a little more. Those born in the 60's vs. the early 80's in American culture have little in common. Honestly, something happened in the summer of 69 to make a line there and then in the winter of 79. I honestly don't know what they were, but there really is a difference. (in my expierence on the West Coast)
I think it is a reaction in the late 1980s (1987 was the start date for the show thirtysomething) against boomers who were 30s. The twentysomethings at the time were born after 1957. John wesley 21:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Boomers would then be 1946 to 1956 and Gen X would be 1957 to 1967. The key point is that the Vietnam War and exposure to the draft is the defining element of boomerhood. If you were born in 1957, you turned 18 in 1975,... after the draft ended. 1955 at most 1956 was the last year of birth that can count. John wesley 21:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
That entire MTV Generation article appears to be nothing but propaganda, with no factual information provided to support your thesis. An encyclopedia is for documenting factual research and facts, not for injecting someones opinions. But, I'm willing to "quid pro quo" with astute intellectuals. Therefore, will you please provide me with web links that "specifically" define MTV Generation as a generational gap between "GenX" and "GenY". Also, please provide articles that provide me with definitive dates that say "MTV Generation" is a generation gap from 19XX to 19YY.
Under "External links" on the MTV Generation article, websites were listed, that I guess, were given to support the legitimacy of "MTV Generation". But, neither link provided undisputable facts.
I have a lot of respect for your intelligence (I'm very serious), however, your reasoning for MTV Generation is still not justified. Based on these facts just given, I am less acceptable of the MTV Generation article, and even starting to wonder why this is even discussed on a GenX page. Even if you repackage it into "Generation XY", you still have a problem of providing supportive research. Also, when I searched for "MTV Generation", "Cold Generation Y", "Early Y Partition" and "Generation XY" in all of the major search engines, nothing factual was found to justify these classifications. I would be happy to provide constructive critique of the facts you've just given, however, they're too ambiguous. Please address the following, and revise your facts:
Notice how a ten year interval works neatly. 1976-85. Counting backwards, i.e. doing arithmetic, 1946-55 (Boom), 1956-65 (Gen X or Boom?), 1966-75 (Gen X), 1976-85 (Gen Y).... If we just did ten year intervals to mark generations it would work because the 1946-64 [stupid transposition of final digits] implies a 19 year interval when a Boomer born in 1946 could give birth to someone in 1964 to someone in her own generation, crazy! If the 1989 TV show Thirtysomething was for bopomers, then those who were twentysomething are ten years younger than those thortysomthings! The Gen X at that time was used interchangeably with the twentysomething term. With ten year intervals we have 4 intervals: 46-55, 56-65, 66-75, and 76-85. The oldest teenager in 2006 was born in 1986. We are only then arguing what name to label those 4 ten year intervals. John wesley 14:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm in the mood to play Devil's Advocate today, so here are some thoughts (interspersed with your post): My understanding of the use of "the MTV Generation" in the late 80s was as a reference to Generation X, not some younger group that came after. And as I've said before, I firmly believe that a generation is longer than 5-10 years. Generations are 20-25 years -- any other group is a subgroup, sub-cohort, whatever, but it isn't a generation. Calling a 5-10 year span a generation is just nonsensical to my ears. (This applies to "Generation Jones" too.) I have no problem believing the early 80s folks are the last wave of X (as I said earlier, Atari wave, Nintendo wave, SuperNintendo wave) since that still fits into a 20-25 year generational cycle. Strauss/Howe claimed the generation ended in 1981, but they also said that it was really too soon to tell (at that time) what the actual change year would be, and 1981 was just an estimate based on what was known then.
I also want to add that the older members of a generational cohort are culturally influenced by members of the previous generation (usually late cohort members). For example, The Beatles and Bob Dylan were Silents, not Baby Boomers. Madonna and Michael Jackson were Boomers, not Xers. And now Xer celebs influence younger Millennials. Just because a cultural influence is an X does not necessarily make the people who are influenced by them of the same generation -- there are always older celebs influencing the next generation. This is just the way of the world. More below... ManekiNeko | Talk 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Sure, the people you went to school with could be a mix of two different generational cohorts. But the line is fuzzy. People at the margins could identify with either generation. Imagine this, though. Say there was a draft, and a war, and people who were terrified of being drafted and sent off to die. Then the war ended, and the draft ended. Those who had the fear of war ingrained into their psyche might have different sociological characteristics from those just a couple of years younger who did not have that fear. (I suppose this sounds like the difference between early and late Boomers. I am not one so I am just theorizing here.) So you could have high school seniors who are in a different subgroup or even generational cohort from the freshmen in their school. My mom was a late Silent and in many ways she is definitely a Silent. But she went to school with the earliest Boomers, and she has Boomer characteristics as well. I think the true result is that you have an overlap, people who have a bit of both. (And I would point out that wanting very badly to be part of a group is something that seems not very "X" to me -- the classic Xer attitude to me is "I don't want to be part of any group that would have me.") So the boundaries here are fuzzy ones and arguing over them is non-productive. This page has had a dispute banner for months. The flames over birth years have made it impossible to get much real work done on the page, I think. I know I spent months looking at the page going "I don't want to get involved in that flame war". And I still haven't done much because it's just insanity to jump into it. Though I jumped into the Talk page, which means I might not be all that sane... ManekiNeko | Talk 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Look I'm not trying to start a war on here, all I'm saying is that there is something really wrong here, between the Gen X and Y articles someone or perhaps we all need to start thinking this through properly, because as of now everyone is either complaining or disagreeing with the definitions. We need to realise that not only demographics apply but also pop culture and overall lifestyles prevalent throughout particular years are important components to particular "generations". I think perhaps we should analyse these aspects, in the MTV Generation article if you read it you will notice that the factor that define the generation are relative to those people growing up from the time period that it defines. Gen X's global issues differentiate from XY, as do Gen Y's from XY. Therefore there must be something to it. Piecraft 15:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
A word of encouragement - Good luck! I'll try to find facts backing up XY, too, but it may take a while. But a warning........Generation X seems unwilling to listen. They are set in their ways. like talking to a brick wall. None of this is an insult because it's true. Even with all the correct and relevant information, I doubt Generation X is open minded enough to change. Why do we need facts to prove something that is proven by logic! 2+2=4. And how can POV not be relevant, when the whole subject is on POV and personal identification? It would be different if it were on some other subject, like chemistry or biology. These endless searches for facts and mazes of redundant or impossible trick questions are meant to tire people out, not prove anything. Even surveys are biased. Reality isn't always recorded in surveys or in news articles. They haven't even provided solid facts justifying late 70s to be part of Gen X. The greatest strength of an inbetween generation is it's ability to understand/sympathize with other inbetween generations. Even with the lack of facts, people from core generations (Boomer 50 or X 70 or Y 90) have no authority to disprove it's existence because they don't even belong to any of them and they're biased. So, even with their disapproval, keep your head up. r430nb Dec 8, 2005
I would once again Nice Beaver like to direct you to the policy against personal attacks - you seem to put yourself on a high horse when in fact it appears you're not even a registered member or contributor to Wikipedia (having much more to say about all of this then you clearly have the capability of), and I did not just come up with the title or term MTV Generation out of my rear-end I used a term which had already been employed by others i.e. THE SIMPSONS as well as movies and other TV programs with people from the same time period who defined themselves either as MTV Generation/Doom Generation or Thatcher's Children, I have even heard of the Cold War Boomers or Babies as another alternative term that is often used by people. But I decided to stick to the more common ones - so all I can say is you sir should seek medication because you're far too wired about this subject and seem to be far from anywhere in terms of discussing this in a civilised manner or even understanding way. The sources that are cited for Generation X are as hokey as anything else, just as r430nb illsutrated there is no clear definition of any generation seeing as this is all biased and based upon pop-culture. Piecraft 04:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This is all completely my opinion, seeing as some of the above statements had no facts I figured I would put my 2 cents out there as well. I do believe this Wikpedia entry should be edited quite a bit though. I dislike the fact that Baby Busters, and Y-nots get in on the Gen X time. I believe that the Gen X has the time between 1969- 1979. The Baby Busters are too out there and are fighting to make everything far too politically correct in an effort to make our elders accept the world the Busters & Gen X are creating, where Gen Xers don't expect our elders to accept things, just don't fight us on it. Tolerate us like you have our entire lives, give us useless tools to work with, and then mock how ill prepared we are to take care of real matters. Gen Xers are thinkers, not by our SAT scores, but by our creative thinking and problem solving. We have had to be. We have to take accountability when we havn't been shown how. As for the Y-nots and the children today, Gen xers have to continue to compete. We are a universal and global generation that has been spoiled then critisized for it. So far the few real world challenges we have faced we pull together with pride and grace, while our grunge expression and over-medicated latch-key childhoods would have had the Boomers expect something else. The more I look at my generation I hate to think how much distatin and frustration we face as a group. The world that is begrudgingly being handed down to us to work with. It is bad enough that we have to deal with the Y-nots who have barely been taught to challange and think for themselves. They have been overprotected and have rarely failed. We have to compete among THAT. We have to deal with wanting to give our kids what we had growing up and know that it is nearly impossible without sacrifice every moment with them. Rasing Gen X's kids does take a community, because daycare is so high. I just think that in a way the kids from the Baby Boomers can be summed up as 3 siblings. Baby Busters are the Big Sister who is self-absorbed and has the superioriority complex who is forever fighting with "mom n dad". Gen X is the self - sufficient lost middle child who has to fight for everything. Gen Y is the spoiled little sister who is handed everything. 72.130.204.149 23:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)J.A.B.
First off, I'm not sure how the tag on this will show-up, but I'm the same person who posted the talk entry on "Early Y Partition".
Two quick items: 1.) With regards to the controversy surrounding the "MTV Generation Article." I myself would probably not use that exact terminology, as it is generally not used or accepted amongst Sociology circles. With the articles overall veracity, however, I would indeed say that some of the criterion it lists does pertain to some of the views and trends exhibited by the Early Y subsection. Whether you wish to classify Early Y as a generation or a sociological sub-category really seems like more a matter of semantics to me.
As to those who have raised doubts about its factual grounding, I can assure you that the concept of an Early Y Partition does have some currency behind it in the academic world; my initial mention of it was made after it was the focus of a lecture in my Methods in Sociology course. I will endeavor to provide some more academic evidence to support this when I am able to contact the professor in question. I can assure you, however, that given the considerable evidence and well-reasoned logic that was presented both in the lecture and in my own reading on the subject, Early Y is indeed an academic concept, not merely the product of certain disaffected elements that are frequenting this article. However, actions speak louder than words, so I will do my utmost to provide you with some links to a few journal articles I currently have in hard-copy form.
2.) Concerning the overall tone of this debate, I think in the interest of a well-reasoned and productive discourse it would behoove us to stick to reasoned argument rather than personal attacks and what appear to be some frail attempt at humorous jabs. It would seem certain contributors put a higher premium on making smarmy comments directed towards the younger contributors, than in actually furthering this discussion. If you are indeed more mature, as your arguments intone, perhaps now would be an opportune time to demonstrate that to the rest of us. (And in the interest of full disclosure, I am a 23 year old college student).
Hi, just thought I'd let you guys know this article has been hacked, by who I'm not sure - I have tried to revert it back to it's original form by checking through the history - but it appears the images are present in all the older versions as well, meaning this is a job for an admin to sort out and not a lowly editor like myself. Piecraft 17:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Admins can delete entries from the History. Normally, there should be a deletion history in the History section, but I don't see it there. Still, it is most likely an admin deleted them. -- LGagnon 03:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
ManekiNeko please continue here, this thread is becoming far too dense and complicated to follow. Bottom line I have become weary with Wikipedia in general and will be leaving for some time - so do what you wish. I just find it a shame to get rid of an article that has purpose and is justified, especially when defining a generation that has little recognition in terms of its impact. We could argue and debate to our heart's content but this will neevr resolve any issues. I am of the MTV Gen sometimes known as the NO Gen (thus the peculiar and quirky problem we face currently in establishing ourselves) there is nothing that will change that. I along with 32,000,000 others and perhaps more who were born late 70s until mid 80s consider ourselves and understand to be defined as a generation as a whole, especially relevant to pop culture and the changing world of the time. Prove to me I am Gen Y then I will acknowledge everything you have said and surrender, but without proof that my peers and myself are Gen Y I do not believe it is right to shun or disregard our article. Because quite frankly there is no verification that our geenration is false, as the terms defining it and the fact that it is real is a recurrent theme not only around the Net by also in the media during the 90s. That is all I will say for now. Anyone else can feel free to carry this on... Piecraft 03:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I just did some editing on the section recently added about Culture of the Gen Xers. I think there were some inaccuracies within ("It's Raining Men" was out before 1983, and Gen Xers generally weren't into the Ramones in the mid-70s as they were really pretty young and the Ramones and Sex Pistols weren't receiving any pop radio airplay (in the US, at least), and the separation of "Baby Busters" from Xers makes no sense; Busters are Xers, and the earliest Busters were only 10 in 1975, so they didn't drive the early punk movement either). I am not sure it's a good idea to just list all the music that was popular from 1975-present; that could just end up getting terribly unwieldy. I think it would help to make that specifically related to Generation X more clearly than it is now. If anyone has any ideas for ways to do that, by all means, please edit. I am thinking about ways to improve that section myself. -- ManekiNeko | Talk 08:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello folks, I really enjoyed reading the Gen X articles here. I took the liberty of adding some things, all very accurate, to the text. I am new to the wikipedia concept, so I'm not sure if I did it correctly, but I am sure if there are errors or etiquette problems we can fix them.
Thank you....Heath
Thanks for the welcome. I registered. I am not a demographics expert, or marketer, so any material I might consider adding will be only from my life experience and the common thread us Xers share. No better a document of history than from those who lived it! This is a tremendously fascinating subject, and one that has brought out some reflection. Thanks for tweaking my syntax and grammar. I was an A student in English, but as we are all aware, you get rusty after 10 or 15 years. I am going to do some reflecting, consult my wife (she's class of 90 and I'm class of 91) and takes notes of any other themes that aren't touched on here. She is a Psychology Professor, and after I introduced her to this, she has decided to assign her Gen Y students a project relating to generational characteristics (not strictly Gen X). If we can add more, we will post it here in the talk area for discussion before adding to the wiki page. Anyway, good job to everyone actively sculpting this material, thumbs up! Funny I haven't seen any mention of Menudo yet, or Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons. (Heathtech 03:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)).
"as Early Y matures they have begun to look several generations behind X in forming certain societal/sexual constructs." -- I'm 19, which puts me at the very beginning of the real Generation Y. A lot of my friends are very into Jack Kerouac, which is several generations behind Generation X. My friends and I form our societial/sexual constructs on the idealism of the hippies, but not the actual practice. --Kevin
This article is a complete mess, I can't even read anything from it coherent enough to define Generation X - I think editors who are devoted in keeping this article should attempt to sort this one out. 87.80.126.226 14:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not actually believe the MTV Generation exist, period. It is summarized as sexist and degrading. This is very disrespectful. As someone born in 1977 I consider myself part of generation X (though I have been told otherwise).
TV itself had influence on culture, so do wars, but one network does not drive culture. I think a generation is seventeen years period and is linked by a significant event(s). It, however, is true that generational overlap does appear for between two to five years following the cut off date. Here are my examples following the seventeen year guideline (as a framework principle).
1). 1928 - 1945 The Silent Generation, The Depression and period right before… 2). 1946 - 1963 The Baby Boomers, The end of WWII 3). 1964 - 1981 Generation X, The assassination of JFK 4). 1982 - 1999 Generation Y, The fall of communism and worldwide capitalism
Fact: There are many people who feel they belong to a generational gap. Until the late 90s everyone was considered to have been born from the early 80s was still part of the X, however this soon changed according to "experts" who all of a sudden decided that the youth of tomorrow began at 82 conveniently to position the start date for Gen Y. Gen X are those born between the 60s and 70s. What I find odd is how they push the dates further until 82 but all of a sudden stop there thinking that those born in 82 are completely different from those born in 84 - when in fact many grew up together in the same way. 87.80.126.226 00:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I've excised the ongoing commentary, which if I were to move here would double the size of the discussion page. Those interested can check the Article change history [4] to review the deletions. There's much to be improved still, starting with finding actual sources for the various sweeping assertions made throughout the article. I've tagged it as Original Research for that reason. —LeFlyman 23:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
OK. One of the problems this page has is a continual reversion of the birth dates of GenX (and the other generations as well). Most of the time, people do this just because they don't think that the dates are right because they feel they, personally, have been miscategorized. But the problem is, when you change the dates for that reason, that is original research and that's not allowed in Wikipedia articles. You need to cite reputable sources. I have added Strauss and Howe references since their books Generations, 13th Gen and The Fourth Turning are commonly used for generational definitions in discussions of this topic. (There are other definitions; marketers frequently define generations differently because they are thinking about numbers and not so much about behavioral characteristics.) Strauss/Howe may not be the be-all and end-all of generational definitions, but if we can stick to their definition (a fairly inclusive one), we won't be excluding anyone who should be included, and best of all, we can point to a cited reference for the dates instead of just pulling them off the top of our head.
Further, Strauss and Howe confuse the issue further by giving different contradictory dates for generation X in their books. They basically list it as beginning any year from 1961 to 1965. One other small thing about the work of Strauss and Howe is that this and other contradictions of theirs come about due to their very conservative political leanings. This is why they often contradict themselves by saying that the current crisis in which Gen X plays a pivotal part (fourth turning) will see the erasure of collective goods such as social security and other entitlements, while they also point out that historically the fourth turning crisis point is usually solved through an increase in collective goods and that the nomad generation (currently Gen X) typically strengthenes collective institutions. This is because THEIR solution to current economic and political problems involves the erasure of entitlements whereas Gen X (aka Nomads, who will actually solve this crisis) react against such babyboomer ideas by acting much more collectively. Sadly, as they point out, the wrong way to think and act in the current crisis is in the old ways of older generations such as blindly using ideology over what is practical and what really works. They are guilty of this themselves because they are baby boomers and doomed to their generational proclivities? (the above pharagraph is by D. Tyler McKay, University of Minnesota).
The article itself does claim the dates are in dispute, and it could be rewritten to discuss that some more, though I think the exact dates should not be a major focus. All generations are "blurry at the edges"; can we stop arguing about this aspect of the article, and work on improving the more important parts? -- ManekiNeko | Talk 09:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Today there seems to be a co-ordinated attempt to mess with the dates on the page; 4 different users (3 of them different IPs, one a logged-in account) have changed the generation dates to "February 20, 1967-May 13, 1978" (?), deleting existing references, etc. I am trying not to inadvertently run afoul of the 3RR rule, so I have not changed the most recent edit of this nature, but people might want to keep an eye on it. I've also requested help on Vandalism In Progress. -- ManekiNeko | Talk 01:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I have requested semi-protection to deal with this (see Wikipedia:Requests for page protection). -- LGagnon 20:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The reason why DC's definition is not commonly accepted is because media and marketers have distorted it since 1991. Does that make it any less valid? Of course not. Canadian economist David Foot (who deserves mention in this article as a credible source in his own right) also identifies the late 50's early 60's cohort as Generation X. And, he is more contemportary than Coupland. Really, if this article is going to maintain any credibility, it should not be trendy but factual if its going to be taken seriously as an accurate piece on sociology. Btw, Coupland was not pleased about it http://www.tomorrowtoday.biz/generations/xpaper2011.htm (In fact, maybe I should take his advice and not participate in any generational debates, and baby - this one is going to go on for an eternity!)
Also, the "Baby Buster" hyperlink in the 3rd paragrah supposedly is most often referred to as the cohort born during the longest "bust" in American history, from 1958 (also the starting point for trailing edge or post-peak boomers to 1964) to 1968. This is absolutley overlaps with the GX:TFAAC jacket sleave blurb "...the generation born in the late 1950's and 1960s.". You really can't compare it with the so-called Generation Jones because look how indignant people get over starting and ending points just a few years off.
Actually, even the jacket sleave blurb is off from his original (1987) notion of the back-end boomers being totally separate from the older cohort. And...I'm not sure how this 1958-1968 definition of "Baby Bust" came to be; the Census Bureau refers to the group born from 1965-1976 as the bust. It seems the former looks at a normal distribution curve and observes birth rate as the front edge and back edge of a peak. The latter observes birth rate with base-line births, a big increase, or boom (front edge) and decrease (back edge). The former disects the curve at the peak and the latter takes the whole curve defined by a base-line. 4.239.147.24 01:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Most dictionaries online have the general "born in 1960's and 1970's" format, which is similar to Oxfords. Another approach possibly is the insertion of "cusps". I've seen a lot more mention of "core Gen-X years 19nn-19nn (et cetera) lately, so just add cusp years before and after core. Yankelovich Partners (not to mention Rainmakerthinking) are brilliant at it. Yankelovich considers the 1960-1964 cohort as "Trailing Boomers" and the bridge between boomers and busters (or Generation X as it were). There is probably much sociological validity to that approach besides! So, a hybrid can exist between demographers (like the US Census Bureau), who acknowledge birth cohorts, and sociologists (like Strauss and Howe) who look at cultural and psychometric characterisitics in cohorts. Incidentally, I was born in 1964, and identify early on as a Boomer. When I was in college in 1987, a friend (about a year younger) in a relevant conversation said "you're not a boomer, you're twentysomething". In retrospect, it was probably popular as a backformation from "thirtysomething", the yuppie wine-a-thon tv show (and another 1958 starting year reference for Gen-X; 29 year olds in 1987 when the show began were born in 1958). But, I probably have many (cusp) boomer and Gen-X traits, as Yankelovich put it so well. That's the group Coupland originally spoke about (with his Brad-X comic strip, etc). Today, I can barely identify with being a boomer at all, and very much identify with Gen-X, if even the stereotype. 4.239.147.24 01:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Generation X is not purely an American term, however, this article barely begins to reflect this, except in passing. The list of Generation Xers is even more America-centric, and the only foreigners on it, are ones Americans have heard of. --MacRusgail 18:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
One small thing about the work of Strauss and Howe, is that their very conservative political leanings must be understood. This is why they often contradict themselves by saying that the current crisis in which Gen X plays a pivotal part will see the erasure of collective goods such as social security and other entitlements, while they also point out that historically the fourth turning crisis point tends to increase collective goods and that the nomad generation (currently Gen X) typically strengthenes collective institutions. Sadly, as they point out, the wrong way to think in the current crisis is in the old ways of older generations such as ideology over what is practical and what works. Perhaps they are guilty of this themselves because they are baby boomers and doomed to their generational proclivities?
Now that the article has been unprotected, I see the date shenanigans are beginning again. Here's my perspective on it:
The dates there now have been sourced. If editors come in and start deleting sourced dates -- especially when replacing them with non-sourced ones -- that seems to me to be a problem. I'm generally going to revert such edits, but I hope people making those changes will come in here to the Talk page and discuss them instead so that, if they have useful sources, we can cite those.
Generally, though, I think it is both unproductive and misleading to keep altering the dates as has been happening. The fighting over that has prevented a lot of good editing from getting done. Comments? -- ManekiNeko | Talk 23:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In an effort at neutrality and in the desire of reflecting the usual authority on dates, 1960/61 seems like a good divide because (1) Boomers are more likely to turn to religion and Thirteeners are more likely to turn to entrepreneurialism as solutions to the Big Questions of the mid-1980s when the oldest of Strauss and Howe's Thirteeners began to make a mark in adulthood; (2) those born before 1961 and those born in 1961 or later had very different cultural tastes, especially in music; (3) people born in the 1960s made a strong shift toward conservatism in politics that manifested itself in the landslides for Ronald Reagan; (4) persons born before 1961 could experience the Consciousness Awakening as something empowering and thrilling, but those born later found it confusing and even threatening; (5) cultural figures born in 1961 and later seem to have played up and even exploited a "bad boy" image as those born in 1960 or earlier rarely did; (6) Thirteeners were more likely to be victims of broken families while in formative years; and (7) people born after 1960 experienced far less influence of the Lost Generation (born 1883-1900) in personal or public life.
One can argue that nothing so prevents the appearance of a Reactive/Nomad generation among children as does an active adult Reactive/Nomad generation that tries to keep youth from following its course of wildness in childhood. The Lost were out of the workforce in the mid-sixties, and they were the first generation to be shipped off in large numbers to institution-like "nursing homes" when they lost their ability to take complete care of themselves. The time between retirement and institutionalization of the Lost must have been the shortest in history. During the Consciousness Awakening, many adults thought that there were more important things to do than to take care of their elderly grandparents. Children born between 1961 and perhaps 1965 could have been more Boomer-like had they gotten more attention from elders who had kept children from being brought up as shabbily as they had been brought up.
The people who display the most contempt for the pop culture of the 1980s seem to have been born in he late 1950s; the ones who participated in it seem to have been born in the 1960s. That is a huge divide.
It is easy to interpret Strauss and Howe as asserting that Boomers are a "good" generation and that Thirteeners are "bad", especially when citing the rising pathologies of late-wave Boomers (crime, drug use, drunk driving, educational underachievement) that rose with each year of youth until the early 1960s, stabilized for a few years, and then fell steadily. Strauss and Howe place the worst underachievers (born 1961-1965) in the Thirteener group. That is a harsh judgment. But note that the pathologies abate for cohorts born in the 1970s -- slowly, to be sure, but perceptibly.
The late end of the Thirteener generation isn't so easy to place. After all, those people born in the late 1950s and early 1960s are in their forties (midlife), so much of their character is set. Such is not so for those born in the late 1970s and the early 1980s. The 1981/1982 divide that Strauss and Howe sets between Thirteeners and Millennials looks arbitrary. Historical events will likely set the divide, as World War I and the Great Depression separated the unlucky Lost from the more fortunate GIs. GIs could not have experienced the worst of World War I; they were young enough to adapt to the moral crusades of the early 1920s as the Lost couldn't; they were young enough that they had no investments to lose in the Stock Market Crash of 1929 and subsequent meltdown.
No event has yet happened that could ever define where one age group is essentially Reactive/Nomad and a later one is essentially Civic/Hero as neatly as the 1900/1901 divide that delineates the Lost from GIs.--66.231.41.57 01:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
From the current article:
So if we're going into these aspects of the generation's attitudes, can flag-waving be quantified? Is there a source to point to here? What constitutes "the Vietnam-losers image" exactly, and what is the real state of pro-war rallies for the generation of punks and latch-key kids?
I mean, this generation also witnessed the protection of flag-burning (see Texas v. Johnson), the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, the Soviet coup attempt of 1991, and the televised missile attacks of the Gulf War... arguably lending to this generation's culture themes of disallegiance and revolution, distrust of the government, and further abandonment by parents consumed with commerce. Most have never been subject to the draft, and maintain their "so what" and "whatever" attitudes, particularly with regard to large organizations and institutions.
I don't want to just delete this kind of comment if there's something to it, but there's nothing to back it up and a whole article of conflicting themes that precedes it, and it's unclear how neutral it is.
Thornrag 09:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This is very ORish, so I'll post here instead of on the article. A generation generally gets defined at least in part by its common experiences. How's this for a try:
Agreed with the following:
Take issue with:
With regards to baby boomers:
With regards to Gen Y:
Born 1970
Removed "Also, those born in 1976 and 1978 prefer not to be classified as part of Generation X.", which was inserted as the last sentence in the opening paragraphs. I'm surprised an intellect like that could even edit. 4.239.147.207 17:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone added Spanish-language content (diff) to this article which, although poorly formatted and out of place in an English-language Wiki, appeared to be valid content. My Spanish is not up to the task and I couldn't find a Generation X article in Spanish Wikipedia, so the text is just deleted for now. Spanish-speakers are invited to view the diff and re-introduce the translated text, or crear el Generation X articulo en Español. The Crow 23:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It looks like there's been lots of improvements, but still pending:
Just a thought; how about a poll to ask readers what years they believe Gen-X to bracket. 4.239.159.213 22:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
But this is only the discussion page... 4.239.159.178 17:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The year you think starts Gen-X:
The year you think ends Gen-X:
The question is what is a generation? A cohort whose experiences share many commonalities -- or -- as long a number of years to satisfy journalist who cannot do arithmetuc and like transposing digits like 46 and 64 as in boomers are 1946 to 64... wrong! This would imply a boomer could be a parent of another boomer! Someone born in 1962 could be born to a parent born in 1946. This means the writers were mashing and blending two generations into one. The years of birth for the early Gen-Xers are the same years for the socalled late boomers. I say eligibility for the dreaded military draft for vietnam should mark the start and end of the boomer generation. The draft ended in 1973. Therefore the last year of birth for an 18 year old is 1955. Bingo! We now have ten year age intervals for generations. Boomers: 1946-55, Gen X: 1956-65, Gen Y: 1966-75, Gen Z: 1976-85. This means that on january 1, 2006 Boomers were in their 50s, Gen X in their 40s, Gen Y in their 30s. The youngsters twentysomethings are Gen Z. About twenty years ago, when Thirtysomething TV show was hot, it was aimed at boomers, who were in their 30s, and the term Gen X was popular as a twentysomething. John wesley 13:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC) I repeat, if we use a ten year interval band, then each generation would have the same number of years and we can use the fiftysomething and fortysomething lables. In a sense using the X could signal a placeholder as in algebra, so that there can always be a Generation X for debated cohort. John wesley 13:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to again point out that consesus means nothing when sources can and should be used instead. We've already got sources in the article that say exact years (their contradiction not being a real problem, as this represents the varying views on it, thus moaking the article closer to being NPOV), and we aren't going to force definite years into this article based on any consesus when such actions will only ruin the accuracy of the article. Ultimately, this poll will be pointless. -- LGagnon 22:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly true that "The Shamen which were less beholden to 1970s nostalgia". 1960s pyschedelia was their thang! (Follow the link if you want to know more). --kingboyk 03:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't they be turning into 40 somethings at some stage? The main article mentions that Generation X and Twenty Somethings can be used interchangeably and, for a time, they correctly could have been. But is this the first generation to have stopped aging? Are they frozen in amber forever at 20 something? If Generation X simply means Twenty Something then we might as well use Twenty Something to mean anyone born in the 1960's or 1970's regardless of their age in the future!
Added a few credible sources to the article page. 4.239.159.229 21:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Added Vancouver mag illustration. Ledboots (formerly 4.239) 21:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Added all notes to date, inluding one (credible) UK point of view today. Ledboots 21:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I think that the most recent week's editting has brought sourcing up to standard, right? We don't need to tag this as original research anymore. John wesley 17:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Genration Y was corrected back to X. Also, I added more to notes. Ledboots 18:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I would just like to say that as a Gen-X'er, I do think that people of my generation are either being ignored or overshadowed by both the Baby Boomers as well as the Millenials. The Millenial Generation has had it's way long enough. I also think that half of the Boomer generation is hogging the cultural spotlight at our expense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemp99 (talk • contribs) 12:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Editor: well the Baby Boomers have always had the spotlight, and still appears as the more beloved generation. Generation X is criticized for being slackers, and Generation Y is just crticized period. Educatedlady (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC).
Interesting.I guess it just comes down to your own perception. I'm Gen X and I don't feel overshadowed by Boomers or Gen Y at all. Most of the Gen Y that I know respect and envy Generation X because they feel like we did many of the things first that they consider central to their culture and society (invention of video games, for example) and as far as Boomers go, I think only Boomers admire themselves, along with some of the older Gen X's that are perhaps on the borderline. In my office the Boomers are on the way out, and Gen X are taking over management positions. As far as being labeled as "slackers" I believe I've read somewhere that Gen X has the highest educational achievement of any generation, so it comes down to how you define a "slacker." I think Boomers tend to view education as a means to an end. In other words you get education only to get a job or a promotion, otherwise it is useless, whereas Gen X tends to view education as its own reward, regardless of whether it lands you a cake job or promotion. Honestly, I think a lot of Gen X lost respect for Boomers because when they were young the Boomers were all about societal change, but when they hit 40 most of them sold out for the establishment, BMWs and a stock portfolio. Birth year: 1969 Dojodan (talk) 22:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't speaking for myself, sorry I confused you. When it comes to generations it does seem that the Baby Boomers are commonly referred to. Especially when Generation X first became mainstream it was known as a slacker generation, however overtime that image has somewhat evolved. Educatedlady (talk) 04:43, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
To Shemp99 and DojodanWhat years were you guys born in?Bjoh249 (talk) 04:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
An extra * is in the lead in one of the refs! --Stone (talk) 06:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Several blogs focus on Generation X content, and are listed in the Generation X section of Alltop. The most comprehensive of these blogs is written by Jennifer James, an Oklahoman, whose blog, Are you there, God? It's me, Generation X., has been featured in numerous national media outlets including the Washington Post, MSNBC, TwitTV and more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenx67 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Consensus has been reached to change the wording of the lead paragraph to reflect multiple sources' use of multiple dates to define Generation X.
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Perhaps we could remove the protection now? I think that people have calmed down and it seems that there is some spirit of compromise and consensus in the air.... It has been some months that we can't edit this article... Peregrine981 (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC) Hey Peregrine I agree. I assumed we would be doing a formal consensus to add to the page, and do a semi protection like Creative said. If you want to start the consenus that is fine or I can. I haven't seen Creative lately I just wanted make sure she was on board. Educatedlady (talk) 19:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC) All I know is there has to be a firm cut off date, in life there must be rules and boundaries. 1981 is the absolute cut off date for GenX if you were born on Jan 1, 1982 sorry you're not a genXer end of story. There might not be much of a difference between people born in 81 or 82. But you can't just keep adding a year on and then before you know it people born in 90 will be genXers. Every major publication has stated 1981 as the last year for GenX so that's it. You can take the protection off but u will just have more kids born from 82 - 84 trying to squeeze into the genx crowd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 20:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
To Educatedlady What in the name of god are you talking about? Fake Account? Please contact all the admins you want you nut. This is the first time i've talked on wiki. You sound like you have to much time on your hands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 05:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC) GenxKid4life: Obviously you are the nut for coming on here in the first place trying to start yet another debate. There has been VERY heated debates on this page, and there has been suspected persons using multiple IP addresses to spam this page. So therefore that is why I am leery. It is not about having "too much time on my hands" This is not a STYX song, but rather being proactive in keeping debates at a minimum. This is why we are proposing this consensus. It is not about our own personal opinions but rather facts. While you may feel that Gen X ends in 1981 or 1980 or 1981 are really not part of it, (it seems like you are changing your mind) sources have used various dates. As long as a source proves reliable (not necessarily popular because Wikipedia does allow a minority view to be included as well) we have to find wording to reflect that. So go choke on your damn "nuts". Educatedlady (talk) 07:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC) To the poster above you are not informed. If the source is reliable it can be used in the article. I have found different sources that use the 1965-1982 date range. I dont understand why people have to make this such a problem. If there are good sources that use the date then it should be used. I think there will need to be some sort of protection on the page because there always seems to be others who want to change the introduction. 75.148.160.76 (talk)
Good idea, Peregrine if you want to start the formal consensus that is fine with me. Educatedlady (talk) 19:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Well we have to go through the formal consensus first before we can request a life of the protection, and we can only an administrator can approve that. Once we have complete the consensus then we can contact an adminstrator by Wikipedia chat and they will review the consensus and lift it, and we can request semi protection.Educatedlady (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Who is in favour of moving from protected to semi-protected status:
Peregrine981 (talk) 09:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
First we need a formal consensus on the proposed changed to the article (vote), then we can ask an administrator to remove the protection. If you read above an administrator informed us once we reach an agreement then we can ask for the protection to be removed. Educatedlady (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC) |
Agreement has been reached to change the wording of the lead paragraph to reflect multiple sources' use of multiple dates to define Generation X.
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This is the proposed consenus for changing the wording of the introduction to the Generation X article. Once consensus is reached this section can be added to the heading of this talk page to inform other editors that a consensus has been met. "Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation born after the World War II baby boom ended. The term had also been used in different times and places for various different subcultures or countercultures since the 1950s. While there is no universally agreed upon time frame, the term generally includes people born in the 1960s and 70s, ending in the late 1970s to early 80s, usually no later than 1981, but sometimes as late as 1982." I agree to change the wording of the introduction to reflect a variety of sources that use various dates to define Generation X. Educatedlady (talk) 00:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC) All the people that wrote articles about what year Gen X starts and ends are just human beings. What makes them the be all end all, in all honesty i don't feel like anything born in the 80's is Gen X including 1980 or 81. Even this article lumps everything from 80 on as a gen y. http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/no-mcmansions-for-millennials.html . An estimated 80 million people comprise the category known as "Gen Y," youth born roughly between 1980 and the early 2000s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 05:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Peregrine I made changes to the proposed, let me know what you think. Educatedlady (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
If it is so important then I will not object to "usually not later than 1981", even if I don't think it is necessarily the best way to define the generation. I don't think it is such an important point that it is worth keeping the page frozen, and everyone distracted for months on end. I can accept it as compromise wording as long the usually is left in, in order to keep the possibility of a later date open. But I would warn that this wording will likely require constant battling with new arrivals who are convinced that 1982/83 etc... are more "usual." However, it is unlikely that we will escape them anyway. Also, keep mid-1970s for Gen Y. As far as "western" goes, we use it sporadically at the moment, mostly because I don't think it is really clear in most of the literature exactly what the geographical definitions of these generations are. It seems, in my lay opinion, that western more or less applies to all pre-ww2 generations. Baby-boom I am not certain, but it would seem logical that it is largely a phenomenon of countries who fought in WW2. From Gen X onward they seem to become more "global" so don't necessarily need the geographic qualifier. I certainly have no objections to your final proposal, and will agree to keep an eye. However, we should be careful not to become an old guard or "cabal" who will not allow any changes to "our" work. Newcomers may bring fresh ideas, and we should be careful to encourage them to bring constructive edits. But certainly, if they are just randomly changing things to suit their own prejudices I will help out. Peregrine981 (talk) 16:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC) Ok I will change it back to reflect what I posted initially usually 1981, but sometimes as late as 1982. If you all agree I am okay with it. I think the sources will back up the intro, and decrease potential battles, although it may not eliminate them. I am all in favor of others coming to make changes and bringing in fresh ideas, because research changes. Even GenXKid4Life brought a new article that stated that millennials are defined as persons born 1980-2000. All this time I have been supportive of using all resources that use various dates. If we have made a consensus I will contact an adminisrator about the protection status. Educatedlady (talk) 19:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC) Ok it looks like we are on board reaching an agreement. I am contacting an administrator about placing the article on semi-protection status, and placing this consensus at the forefront of the talk page, to show validation that a consensus was made in regards to the introduction, to attempt to decrease furture intense debates like we have had. I hope to work with you guys and other editors in improving other areas in the article. Educatedlady (talk) 03:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC) |
The Simpsons, Season Four, Episode Eleven; Homer's Triple Bypass. Where Homer is about to tell Bart and Lisa about the surgery,
Bart: Nothing you say can upset us, we're the MTV generation. Lisa: We feel neither highs nor lows. Homer: Really, what's it like? Lisa (shrugs): Meh...
Just had to put this here. I found it too ironic that there was a citation needed for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.247.141 (talk) 23:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if this is really a legitimate source, the website makes it look more like the book was written to make money than to be a legitimate source of information for accuracy purposes. Also including the link might constitute spam since the only purpose of that website is to make money.--174.45.204.124 (talk) 21:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This user has been deleting my comments and has been attacking me via my talk page. They have been reported administrators.Educatedlady (talk) 22:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Just on here for a short bit. You said you reported these IP addresses. I have had to deal with anonymous vandals who repeatedly engage in disruptive edits. I would also suggest you keep track of these IPs yourself, and perhaps leave the appropriate warning template on the IP's talk page. This way, other editors can see a history of warnings and can apply a stronger warning next time, or administrators can fully block the IP if necessary. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 20:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
If the article is going to link Gen Xers to particular presidents, it does make sense to mention the 2-term presidents, but does not make sense to leave out Bill Clinton. My belief is that linking to particular presidents should be left out of the article entirely. --98.180.18.161 (talk) 17:36, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree because it doesn't make much sense, as Bill Clinton became president in 1993 during all the Gen X hype, so wouldn't he be connected to X also? (as well as Y?) Also many gen xers grew up during Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford's administrations. The fact that the article states that Gen Xer's are linked to Reagan and Bush gives the impression that persons born in the early 1980s are linked to this generation, however the article states that the generation is linked to these presidents states that Generation X dates are 1965-1978. Its conflicting. Plus this statement doesn't apply to persons living in other countries. Educatedlady (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Consensus has been reached to change the wording of the lead paragraph to reflect multiple sources' use of multiple dates to define Generation X.
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First off, wikipedia clearly states in the 3rd millennium section that the new millennium began on January 1, 2001, not January 1, 2000 like it is widely accepted as. Technically that is correct, as 1 BC rolled over into 1 AD and there was no year 0. To be politically correct the class of 2000 was the last graduating class of the 20th century and the 2nd millennium. That also means that those born in 1982 turned 18 in the last year of the 2nd millennium and 20th century. Those born in 1983 are technically the first ones to turn 18 in the new millennium and the 21st century. But I am just playing with specifics here. I have found more than an equal number of sources that use 1980 or 1978 as the start year of Generation Y as Creative Soul has found articles that use 1982 as the start year. Plus 21 is when you technically become a full blown adult anyway, not 18. Wikipedia also lists 20-40 as young adult. I would post these news articles here, but I am afraid they would just be erased by Creative Soul as he seems obsessed with keeping his birth year of 1981 as the last year of Generation X. Plus this page would just grow longer with more to read and that just bores a lot of people and turns them off. I have all of these articles ranging from CBS to USA Today posted on my personal "My Talk" page. I have also found saved and stored these in my favorites box on my computer, and most are from the last 5 years(most from the last 3). Bjoh249 (talk) 18:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
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I was born in 1980 and even thou I grew up with all the gen x stuff as a kid, i identity myself with the gen y generation. being born in 1982 or 83 and thinking you're part of generation x is insane. Like i said i was born in 80 i don't even really consider that a gen x kid imo. I think the driving force behind this whole 1982 thing is a lot of people don't want to be identified with gen y, but if you were born in 80,81,or 82 you will have a hell of a lot more in common with gen y then someone that was born in 76,77,or 78 tru gen x. 1982 is just to ridiculous... — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 09:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
IF you don't consider yourself Generation X then why in the world is your username GenXKidforLife??? Proves you are a confused person.Educatedlady (talk) 06:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Again I find it VERY interesting that people like you have NOTHING to say in dispute of 1961 and 1965 BOTH being used as a beginning to Generation X. This just proves you have an agenda. You are a complete phony. Educatedlady (talk) 00:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I consider myself a GEN X KID because i was born in 80 and the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF SOURCES use 1965 to 1981 as the dates for gen x kid. But with that said i feel people that were born from 78 on have more in common with gen y then gen x. And you still haven't said what year you were born. Because you have been on a personal mission to get the dates to end in 1982 does that mean you were born in 82 and don't want to associate with gen y? Because i personally consider 1982 as gen y since the overwhelming majority of sources use 81 as the end date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 05:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
There have been other users who have also wanted the date change. We have shown the sources that use the date. If they are reliable sources they can be used. If you look on the archives you will see some of the sources that were posted. 75.148.160.76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC).
Personally as a person who graduated high school in 1981 i don't feel anyone of 80's born people are generation x at all. Generation X was targeted to 20 something year olds in the early and mid 1990s. The movie Reality Bites, Nirvana and the tv show Friends were not targeting persons born in 1980, 1981, or 1982 but 20year old people. I don't think you remember what generation x was really about in the 90s. The reason why some people choose to end the generation in 1981 or 1982 is because it has to end somewhere. But gen x is really only about 1965-1975. I was born in 1963 and I have Baby Boomer attributes mostly, but some Gen X as well. People born in the early 1950s are bona fide Boomers. People born in the early 1960s are Boomers/Gen X, people born in the early 1970s are bona fide Generation X. People born in the early 1980s can be Generation X and Generation Y, and people born in the early 1990s are bona fide Generation Y. Despite some reports that I am Gen X. I am a Boomer. Heavymetal81 (talk) 20:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
^ this person hit the nail on the head. Smartest thing i've heard. I call my self "genxkid" because the dates say i am. If you were born in the 80's and even really late 70's for that matter you're not true gen x imo. Because of what the above user said the 90's "GEN X" lifestyle was not marketed to kids in there teens. It was marketed to the "gen x" crowd, people that had just turned 18 by 1990 on up. If having 1982 as the end date makes some kids feel better that fine. But go up to someone that was born in 1970 and tell them you are gen x because you were born in 1982 they would laugh at you. I think one thing that should be added to the article is what age range gen x was truly marketed towards and that's people born from 65 - 75. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.170.26 (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Uh Genxkid that goes for you too. You are not Gen X either being born in 1980. There is no difference between persons born in 1980-1982. My daugther was born in 1981, the same year I got out of high school. There is no way we are part of the same generation. Regardless of what the "dates" say, you were not part of the market of the generation in the 1990s. So I am really laughing my a$$ off at you for being born in 1980 and callin yourself genxkid. Sorry "Kid" but you need to grow up. You're not bona fide gen x. You need to stop basing your life on books. Heavymetal81 (talk) 08:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Bona fide Generation X definitely begins somewhere in the mid 60's. Given the non-existence of definite boundaries, border years like 64 or 83 can be swing years between generations depending on the individual and how he or she self-identifies. As someone born in 1963, you identify as a late Boomer with Gen X traits. Many born in that year would agree with you. Some 63'ers would also say "we're Gen X". Thus a classic example of a swing year, though I'm more inclined to see 1963 kids as Boomer/X'er cusps or "second wave Boomers" (as opposed to Woodstock boomers), considering these people would have been in high school mostly in the late 70's, only graduating during the first spring of Reagan's year of office. 1965 kids, however, spent the bulk of their high school in an 80's Reaganite America. They are the first real "Generation X'ers" as far as I'm concerned. With regards to early 80's babies, I don't think it's set in stone. I definitely don't see them as "core Generation Y'ers". I was born in 1989 and I self-identify as being part of Generation Y. I definitely don't see myself in the same cohort as someone born in 1980. A person born in 1980 would have graduated high school in the spring of 1998. I would have been in third grade then. How am I in the same generation as that individual? I have a friend in born in 1985 (another Generation Y) and even between us there are some notable differences in our teenage/adolescent experiences. He went to high school in a world without facebook, myspace, youtube or even commonplace ipod ownership (until his senior year I think). You may not see early 80's born kids as part of the core of Generation X, but they sure as hell aren't the same those born in the mid-late 80's and early-mid 90's. I think late 70's and early 80's kids belong in their own generation, consolidating my personal view that generations are 9-12 years rather than 15-20. During the Obama election, commentators felt that as a "post-Woodstock Boomer" president born in 1961 who didn't fit into what we would call "generation x", Obama should be placed in a separate category for Second-wave Boomers called "Generation Jones". This would include people born between 1955 and 1964. Those tail-end boomers basically, like yourself. Similarly, I think births ranging from 1976-1984 should be given a separate generational moniker, a cohort of kids who came of age with the rise of internet technologies, as opposed to core Millenials who experienced that rise as little children (I was 5 when both internet and cell phone came out). Just my two cents. Afghan Historian (talk) 20:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Interesting observation Afghan Historian. Like your friend I went to high school without the world of Facebook, Myspace and the like. We didn't have cell phones. I learned to type using a typewriter not a computer. I think persons born in the late 1970s and early 1980s are very unique because while we have characteristics that are associated with Generation Y, we have those associated with Generation X too. For example I loved N'Sync and the Backstreet boys when I was in high school, but I loved Van Halen and Bon Jovi as a young child. I remember Columbine in high school, and I remember Challenger as a preschooler. I self identify as an XY Cusp. We don't have all the characteristics of Generation X nor Generation Y. Educatedlady (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC).
I think you have an idea there Peregrine about the banner! If its possible please do it! Many of the authors I have read that have drawn exact lines for generations have no specific reasoning, (or at least concrete reasoning) for doing so. That's why in my own study I am defining X as the early 1960s to the early 1980s. This may seem "vague" to some, but it is certainly a lot more accurate. Educatedlady (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure, I will ask an administrator. I know I have seen some other pages that have banners with warnings on them. But you're right I want to avoid potential headaches as well. God knows we have had plenty Educatedlady (talk) 19:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Here's a recent CNN article from 2011:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/24/singer.young.leaders/index.html
"History will mark 2011 as the year the baby boomer generation, which has so dominated American politics and society, first became eligible for retirement. But little is known about the new guard of American leaders, the Millennial generation, born between 1980 and 2005."Bjoh249 (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Consensus has been reached to change the wording of the lead paragraph to reflect multiple sources' use of multiple dates to define Generation X.
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I've heard the following spans for Generation X. 1961-1981 1965-1976 1965-1981 1960-1985 1968-1986 1965-1985 1965-1982 1965-1974 1958-1985 1966-1984 1963-1985 1961-1983 1964-1986 1964-1985 1967-1981 1968-1980 In general, the start date is no earlier than 1960 and the end date no later than 1985. Are 1958-1967 and 1975-1985 kind of grey areas? I ask because some self-identify in different generations in those grey areas. I have a brother born in 1967 that calls himself a baby boomer, while I know someone that was born in 1962 that calls herself Generation X. I think that's why 1954-1967 as well as 1975-1985 have been partitioned off as subgenerations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MVillani1985 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello Editor. There have several different variations used for Generation X, and the years are often disputed. However usually anywhere from 1961-1982 have been more recently used. Researchers have been faulty (just my opinion) in defining the last of Generation X and often base their conclusions solely on academics and not common culture. Fortunately there have been a new crop of demographers that have been using alternate dates to define Generation X including the emerging 1965-1982, which seems more accurate because the Baby Boom Generation has ended in 1964 for years until authors Strauss and Howe begin coining generation X beginning in 1961. However it does not make sense to start a generation at the beginning of a decade and not include the first year of that decade (1960) nor does it make sense to end a generation at the beginning of the decade and not include all applicable years from the early 1980s (1980-1983). Happy editing. I do encourage you to sign up for an account, as it becomes difficult to identify users by IP addresses. Educatedlady (talk) 09:38, 9 January 2011 (UTC) |
If you are an American citizen the cut off date is 1981 END OF STORY. http://www.archdiocese-phl.org/clusplan/cr3/pars/2520.pdf If you live in another country who knows. But if you live in the US and were born in 1982 or later you are GEN Y! — Preceding unsigned comment added by GenXKid4life (talk • contribs) 09:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
There are sources that use the early 1980s date. We have shown sources that use the 1982 date. If there are reliable sources they can be used. There are different dates used by sources. If you look on the page and archives you will see the different sources that were posted. 75.148.160.76 (talk)
i haven't posted here in a while but i have been observing. why such a big debate on this issue? if sources says gen x ends in 1990 then use them! Heavymetal81 ([[User talk:Heavymetal81|talk] ]) 09:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
There arent any sources that use that date. Thats why its not used. There has to be reliable sources that use the date. If there arent any sources it cant be used. 75.148.160.76 (talk)
Here's a recent CNN article from 2011:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/24/singer.young.leaders/index.html
"History will mark 2011 as the year the baby boomer generation, which has so dominated American politics and society, first became eligible for retirement. But little is known about the new guard of American leaders, the Millennial generation, born between 1980 and 2005."Bjoh249 (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC) Bjoh249 (talk) 18:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
This line caught my eye: "Compared with previous generations, Generation X represents a more heterogeneous generation, exhibiting great variety. They are diverse in such aspects as race, class, religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientation." This strikes me as statistically improbable, verging on impossible, particularly for ethnicity & race. Unless there was a substantial influx of immigration or massive difference in birth rates, the racial & ethnic composition should be within a few percentage points of the values for prior generations. Sexual orientation is also unlike to have changed in actual numbers, but rather in openness. Class is difficult to nail down, especially with all the economic ups & downs of that period. While the lines above are pretty much verbatim from the citation (to the point of verging on plagarism), they also seem illogical. Surely it would be more accurate to say that Gen X is *perceived* as more diverse in (insert stuff above), or "portrayed" as such in the media, or more open & proud of diversity, or something like that? I do think that GenX brings to mind a more diverse group than prior "generations", but I doubt this is a product of actual population composition changes but rather of certain groups no longer being marginalized to the same extent as in previous generations (and media portrayals reflecting this).
Long story short, while I agree that GenX seems / is portrayed as more heterogeneous, I doubt that there are genuine demographic shifts underlying this, making the above-quoted line inaccruate, even if sourced. While taking care to avoid WP:Synth and WP:OR, perhaps some more digging for references might allow the paragraph to be expanded and give a more complete picture? Mokele (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree as well. Educatedlady (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
This is actually a factual change, as it is the first generation to grow up where interacial marriage was legal in all 50 states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.217.64 (talk) 09:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
((edit semi-protected))
I recommend that "cold war" be shown as "Cold War" since it refers to an historic event.
166.216.128.74 (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the last edit that this list was too long. Also, I recall a previous discussion a few years ago when it was decided not to add a list in the first place. There is debate about time frames anyway, and I think that we should stick to not including people to the generation pages. Plus, I believe that adding such notable names would be against Wikipedia policy. The "notables" themselves might disagree about what generation they belong to, and we can't add a generation category to every biography page. I don't think such lists are necessary. Readers can figure out for themselves which generation a celebrity belongs to - by the person's birth year or read any books listed as a source.
I noticed the generation pages that have long lists don't have much information included in the article. What do you all think? I don't feel like these lists are necessary. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 06:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
That makes sense to me. Also I think the whole generation X being linked to Reagan and Bush should be eliminated too. As persons born in the early 1960s grew up with President Johnson and Nixon, and persons born in the early 1970s grew up with Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and some Bush. Since generation X started to be recognized in the early 1990s then that can be linked to Bill Clinton as well. However, if we are talking about the generation as a world wide issue then this would apply to persons in the U.S. Educatedlady (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Hey I removed thr part about the presidents because the article really was more of an interview than actual reliable work, part of it was cut off too. Educatedlady (talk) 04:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I tried the list too and tried to make a list and tried harder and harder to make it non-bias and over numerous professions. I got one line after another, after another about it being (for example) a fan list, a start of a long list, are a bad idea, need to have the person personally identify themselves as part of the generation, etc, etc, etc. The truth is they do not want much to this page. Other pages are more free to edit in the name of freedom of information and totally outside of the strange subject matter constantly having to be reverted, but Generation X page is micro-managed by politically connected users that will keep the page beaten down as much as possible, though I have not made a comment on this page for months and months, I have constantly seen user after user being denied content that would be acceptable on the other generation's pages (which has much fuller content which promotes the generations). I am sure I will be patronized by some politically connected user or even "another" snow job, but if you want to actually make this page catch up with the other pages, you are fighting a tsunami of power. I have seen people ask for administrative support and denied, ever changing excuses (and from the same people, but they did not know someone was watching, colleting, and waiting for months), accused of vandalism and immediately revoked for things that were nowhere near vandalism. I have used my investigative skills creating a repository of responses from the trust of users, investigation of the user's background and work outside of Widipedia, contacted prominent generational experts like Neil Howe, Jean Twenge, Douglas Coupland, Tammy Erickson, and Barbara Ehrenreich to name a few about this and when I heard something back (which I did) can be divided into two categories: "just saw your mail after a few months and all is well now I guess" and "I can not even get people to listen to me about what is wrong with the generational psychology without being forced to jump through extra hoops than other subjects". Your not going to break the micro-management of the Generation X page on Wikipedia this way. You have to take it up with other site and will likely have some reasonable accommodation to the subject matter such as "lists". I have and peers (not just members of Generation X) in my online generational research circle have too. You are not going to get this free this page so it can change to the level of other generation's pages by use of usual means. Pwalker1972 (talk) 02:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree you have the right to bring your arguments too. There is no specific "owner" for this page. Kurt Cobain is a common person linked to Generation X. I remember when I was a kid he was named the unoffical spokesperson of the generation (even though he rejected the title). If I can find an article that references it, I wouldn't see a problem adding it. Please bring your sources. Educatedlady (talk) 04:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Let's stop beating around the bush and name names. Who is politically connected and acting outside of the rules of wikipedia? Are you refering to creativesoul? CS and I have had our differences over time, but I do not think that they are "politically connected". If you think they are acting in a proprietary way, please be specific about when and how. I personally think that they have been too attached to supposed "past consensus" in our arguments in the past and would argue for your rights to be able to introduce new ideas. Consensus can and does change. However, CS has also shown an ability to be convinced if you present sources. If you want to introduce a list, or whatever, make an argument for it. I will support you if there is any overbearing editing going on. Personally I do not support a list. I think it will attract edit warring, will be fairly subjective, and will add little value. But I am prepared to be convinced if you want to present an argument. Peregrine981 (talk) 09:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the environment can be bad for some who work on the article. I think we should consider all sources and opinions on here. I think the article should try to stay neutral and not push away people. rc03 (talk) 08:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I think in the last few months we have been able to work towards a more civil agreement. However, I see your point. I personally think a list can provide more information as to who is associated with the generation, however do we have sources of these famous persons quoting the generation they belong to? I think maybe we can quote the fact the media associated these public figures with the generation if we can find sources to back it up. My whole reasoning for being persistent for change on this article was to provide a neutral view. Also this is just my opinion but a lot of sociology has to do with pop culture, therefore generations are typically based on events that occurred with individuals associated with that generation, ultimately leading to similar sociological characteristics. I actually want others to come and provide their perspective with sources, I don't want to alienate anyone. 08:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Educatedlady (talk • contribs)
I noticed that an anonymous user changed the date from 1966 to 1976. Author David Foot actually ends Generation X in 1979, he never uses the date 1976. However, he divides Generation X into two groups. I have included both the original source another editor previously added (that links to the author's website), as well as a link to an article on the Canadian Journal of Sociology website. The author of that article, Thomas Norman Trenton, cited pages 18-22 of Foot's 1996 book Boom, Bust & Echo. I found the following quote from that article: "In Boom, Bust & Echo, Foot (1996: 18-22) divides youth into two groups: "Generation X" born between 1960 and 1966 and the "Bust Generation" born between 1967 and 1979."
I will double check David Foot's book to make sure I have the correct pages, and perhaps his 2000 book as well (Boom, Bust & Echo 2000). If anyone has any questions regarding David Foot's books, please let me know. I could not find previews of his books online, so I will have to track down a copy of his book or purchase one before I can verify the page numbers. I might not be able to do so for several weeks.
Please do not change dates from sourced material or remove these sources. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 07:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
There are enough sources to support the various start and end dates in the introduction, which has been decided by a consensus. Also, the about.com website is not the problem. The recent source added only shows a list of generations and various time frames. It is only a guide and not an article about generations or Generation X, nor is it a research article written by a reputable demographer. Also, the article by the UK's The Observer is mostly about Generation Y. The Generation Y article already has some UK sources, but thanks for contributing all the same.
I would ask that Peregrine981 weigh in on the discussion since he helped organize the sources, and the other editors involved in the consensus. We already have plenty of sources, especially in the introduction. Please do not add any more without discussion with others involved in the consensus. I have a list of recent sources that can be used for both pages, but will not add them until I can expand the articles a bit. Some of these sources (newspaper articles, research, etc.) are from 2010 and 2010, a couple from May and June 2011. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 19:14, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Considering there is one lone source that uses 1982, shouldn't the sentence read. "usually no latter than 1981, although some sources go as late as 1982"? As it looks atm it sounds like 1982 is the common cut off date which all but one agree that it's 1981, except on e lone source that chooses to be different. The way it looks, it sounds like someone born in 1982 can delude themselves that they're generation X not generation Y. Also "usually not later than 1982"? It is NEVER past 1982. It's USUALLY not past 1981.60.224.2.240 (talk) 08:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually I was being kind. I said some sources go as far as 1982. Correctly it should be ONE source goes back as far as 1982. Since the vast majority goes back to 1981 and there is one lone source that goes back as 1982, I personally think it should be ignored. The source should be counted as wrong as no other source agrees that it ends in 19812. 60.224.2.240 (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
fx: http://www.prb.org/pdf09/64.1generations.pdf http://generationaladvisor.com/2009/03/generational-primer-gen-x/
Commerce Concepts”: Market Updates, Asset Allocation and Investment Education for Plan Participants and Individuals. Volume 12, issue 2, 2nd quarter; 2008. Generation X: Born Years 1965-1982. “Generations at Work”; Andrew Schwartz; April 22, 2009. Generation X: Born 1965-1982. “Tools for Effective Teaching”; Judy Campbell ARNP: Ed.D. Christine Brooks MSN, FNP-BC; Palm Beach Atlantic University School of Nursing; November 10, 2008. Generation X Born 1965-1980 (1982), Generational Classroom Implications Chart: Gen X (1965-1982).
“Recruiting Ideas for a New Generation” Sharon Cureton, IPMA-CP Human Resources Director City of Daphne; (Year Published Unknown): Generation X (1965-1982).
“The Organizational Generation Gap”; Pharmafocus July 2008; Wiley-Blackwell Publications; Generation X 1965-1982.
“NJPS 2000: Jewish Baby Boomers”; NORTH AMERICAN JEWISH DATA BANK; Laurence Kotler-Berkowitz; Director, Research and Analysis United Jewish Communities; June 5, 2006. Generation X 1965-1982.
“Opinion: American Generations and the Happiness Index”; Samantha A. Torrence; July 1, 2008; Digital Journal; Generation X 1965-1982. “Facilitating the Career Development of Today’s and Tomorrow’s Academic Rheumatologists”; Janet Bickel: Career and Leadership Development Coach and Instructor; March 14, 2009. Generation X 1965-1982.
“Steadfastly Forward”; Timothy R. B. Johnson, MD Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor, MI Received for publication February 24, 2005; revised May 5, 2005; accepted August 1, 2005. Generation X 1965-1982.
“Maximizing Return on Your Training Investment: A Reference Guide for Managers”; Michael Polowy, Andrew Reitz, and Floyd Alwon: (Year of publication unknown). Generation X 1965-1982.
“Generations X and Y in Law School: Practical Strategies for Teaching the 'MTV/Google' Generation” Joan Catherine Bohl Stetson University - College of Law Loyola Law Review, Vol. 54, p. 1, Winter 2009 Stetson University College of Law Research Paper No. 2009-21 . Generation X 1965-1982.
“Sizing Up Tomorrow’s Customer”; Floral Trend Tracker; Glen Hiemstra; Winter, 2005; Generation X 1965-1982.
The Nielsen Company; Client Communication: Final 2009-2010 National Universe Estimates. “Compared to last year, the 2009-2010 UEs for persons 18-49 showed a small decrease, which was driven largely by declines for persons age 35-49, an age group that is comprised largely of the smaller Generation X cohort (born 1965 - 1982).”
“Generation X and the Millennials Will Have Major Effects In the Future”; Kim Ehlers, Holly Sisson, Paula Theilen, Marcy Kratochvil, Nathan Jantzi and Jason Love. Generation X 1965-1982.
“Factoring for X: An Empirical Study of Generation X’s Materialistic Attributes” Nora M. Martin: University of South Carolina and Diane Prince: Clayton State University; Year of Publication Unknown; Journal of Management and Marketing Research. Generation X 1960-1982.
Caroline Perkins; “Don't lose all the best Gen-X talent.” (Generation X, born between 1964 and 1982) (Editorial) ID: The Voice of Foodservice Distribution, May 1, 1998, Vol. 34, Issue 5, p15.
Peregrine981 (talk) 09:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree this date issue has been beaten to death, this proves that hardly no one wants to improve the article as a whole, just keep debating dates back and forth, what about the rest of the page? If we are only going to discuss dates then why don't we just remove everything else from the article and rename it "Dates of Generation X"? I personally believe that people born from around 1977-1983 are part of an XY Cusp like those born from about 1958-1964 are Generation Jones. As we can see no one can really acccurately place Barack Obama with the Baby Boomers or Generation X. He has charactertics of both. However, there has not been enough research published on the XY Cusp. Therefore again there are a number of sources that use 1982 as an end date for X and a start date for Y. People can ignore these sources, or act like they are not good enough, they are legitimate. I agree with using an introductory line that says early 1980s, however that was not the previous consensus , which is fine, but are we going to keep debating this or are we going to improved this article in terms of sociological aspects?Educatedlady (talk) 23:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Again, I think that "early 1980s" is a bit vague, and it's more common to see 1981 than 1982. I think the distinction should be made, and I think the wording I use is better without removing the 1982 date. I already mentioned that we can discuss this with administrators. Enough users have also brought up the fact that many people see 1982 as a common start date for Generation Y/Millennials, and I think it is less confusing overall when people see 1982 dates associated with GenY. I don't see why the new wording would be a problem. We can link to the previous discussion if necessary, but I think several administrators have already read those discussions. I will be adding the various sources in those discussions later tonight. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 02:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
What "users" are you referring to Creative? Yourself and "genxkidforlife" who I believe was a fake user? I have always agreed that yes many sources use 1981 as an end date, but there are some that use 1982 which I have posted several times here, that you continue to ignore, or insinuate are not resourceful enough. The early 60s-early 80s timeframe is not necessariy "vauge", its a more accurate reflection of all the researchers who have coined the generation. We already have "people born in the 1960s" in the article, how is adding early 1980s harming it? I'm not saying to change the current wording, but there is always room for improvement. But again I would like to focus on other areas in the article.
Can I ask you something Creative? Do you really know anything about cultural generations? Because you have made no effort to improve this article to bring it from a C rated page to a featured article. Also I have not seen you post on the discussion page for the Baby Boomer article. Just here and Generation Y, not even the MTV Generation page. Why is that? Are you really interested in generational studies, or are you just here to because of the end dates? No offense, because I have also been guilty in continuing this fierce debate about dates. However, there is so much more to generations than this. Has anyone noticed that many of the statements in the article have no citations. How are we working on improving this? Educatedlady (talk) 06:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I see 1982 as part of Generation Y/Millennials. But, other editors decided in a consensus that 1982 was common enough to be included. Finally, I agreed. But I and another editor, and more recently, an anonymous user, think that 1981 is more common. So that's at least 3 editors. Even Peregrine981 agrees that 1981 is a more common end date than 1981. Not only in the United States, but in Germany, Canada, U.K., New Zealand, and Australia: 1965-1981, and sometimes 1961-1981 are the date ranges most often used (in newspapers, studies, official Millennial Conferences around the world). I'd say that it shows that 1981 is in fact, more commonly used as an end date for Generation X than 1982. However, author Elwood Carlson has published a book sometime in the past few years using 1982 as the end of Generation X and 1983 as the start of Generation Y. I will be adding the Carlson quote to the source, and add as many sources as I can to support the 1981 end date. I have no problem keeping 1982, but I would like the clarification added to the statement. I thought having another person agree with me was enough to edit the wording. However, I am going to wait for more editors who agree with me before I make any changes, and even then, I will wait and request that administrators look at the numerous sources (see this discussion page's archives) before deciding on my wording, perhaps even get a committee to look at the issue. I also have plenty of recent sources to support my edit. If more than one administrator thinks the previous wording will suffice, then we leave the wording as decided by consensus. I think that's only fair, as I've tried to include both dates on the article pages, and even added more sources when necessary. So, until further discussion, no reverts from me.
Educatedlady,I know a lot about cultural generations. I have studied many subjects at university: cultural generations just one of the topics. I have also extensively studied literature, history (medieval and renaissance, Celtic, American, and Ancient history just a few of the topics), several languages, music, theatre, and the arts, and was an honors student. I have written several papers, and am currently working on publishing fiction. I have been studying the subject of generations since I was in the ninth grade, more so after leaving high school. I have actually been editing these articles and others for several years now. And I have brought up several discussion topics, like the one above, at least a few times. Please see the above post. I was trying to post this when you submitted your edit. So, what is your view on the pop culture section? The Generation Y page seems to refer to mainly one source. Thanks. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm okay with the wording now, but leave it open to revisit the discussion if there are more editors who may prefer my wording. I am not trying to start up an edit war - just to be clear. It is a nice change when everyone can be pleasant. I would prefer this wording over the vague "early 1980s".
So, Peregrine981, what do you think about the pop culture section? I would like to start a new section for a new discussion. Please see my above post regarding possible discussion points. Would you also be interested in tweaking this section? CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Well thank goodness we can move on to other things. Just let it be for the record Creative since you have studied generations, then you should know much about Generation Jones and the XY Cusp. According to more accuracy persons born from the late 1950s to the mid 1960s are in the Jones cohort. There is a Wikipedia page about this. Also those born in the late 1970s - early 1980s are in a XY Cusp. However again this does not describe everyone's experiences in relation to any generation. What you don't seem to quite grasp, or accept is that our experiences are highly similar, placing us in this Cusper period. For example I recently went to a New Kids on the Block/Backstreet Boys concert, and I could sense I was one of few who attended the concert, that had nostalgic connections with both bands, because I attended school while they were both popular.
Moving further on to pop culture, I found this article with the NY Times. However I really don't agree with it, because its associating persons born in the early 80s with Harry Potter and I swear I have no connection to this, like Creative said, and I barely no anything about it. However the article does associate the pop culture with Gen Y, Harry Potter Is Their Peter Pan which should be helpful for citations here. I really wish more research would be conducted on the XY cusp, then these uneducated researchers would see many persons born from about 1977-1983 have common characteristics of both generations. I have nostalgic memories of Peter Pan. Harry Potter...hmmm not so much. When I was a kid I couldn't wait until the new Sweet Valley High or Goosebumps book came out. Check out some of the comments from the article, they mirror much of what is being discussed here. But Creative you are so right on the money with older people liking Harry Potter. My friend who was born in 1982 and I discussed this a few days ago how we have no knowledge of the franchise, but their boyfriend who was born in 1958 loves it. But it does seem pop culture is associated with generations in terms of childhood/adolescence and early adulthood. For example, my first experience with national tragedy was the Challenger explosion (early childhood/Gen X), then Columbine (teen/gen y), and then 9/11 (My birthday is September 12, so I was a day shy of 19, early adulthood).
Let me know what you guys think about the article. I think it will helping establishing the culture of Generation Y. Thanks!Educatedlady (talk) 19:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
To Danteferno. I agree with you, however the information about the new millennium has not been connected to studies in regards to generations. So therefore it can be considered "original" work, unless you have found a source that discusses it. Also I was born in 1982 and graduated HS in 2001 because of the Kindergarten cutoff date implemented by the state of Texas and many other states as well. However again, this has not been used in any generational studies that I have come across, so again original work. Can you post the article that described Gen X as graduating high school during Reagan, Bush and Clinton terms? This would be a great addition to the article. Thanks! Educatedlady (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
To Danteferno. Im sorry I guess I should have been more clear. Of course the new millennium has been connected to Gen Y ("Millennials, duh!). What I meant was the true millennium which started in 2001 I haven't found any sources that connect to generations. If you have come across one please post. Thanks!Educatedlady (talk) 20:38, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Has anyone had the chance to look at the article I post. I know we're all busy, just wanted to stay on track.Educatedlady (talk) 07:35, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I am still working on responding to previous posts. I just lost my train of thought. This hasn't been a very good week or so since my cousin's wife passed away from Leukemia and other complications, and my mother got in a car accident (nothing serious), injuring her elbow and getting a concussion. We've had CT scans and MRIs, and thankfully, everything is fine; nothing is broken. Just a sling for her left arm.
Since another editor disagrees with the 1982 date, that makes 3 total including me and another editor. I reverted the last edit, and included both the 1981 and 1982 dates. I think this is fair to both parties and reflects the majority of sources out there.
I will be adding a few more sources to the United Kingdom section showcasing a couple of different date ranges. But other than that, I would like to work with others on the pop culture section and the newly proposed "divorced" topic. I think I mentioned this somewhere else, but maybe we can list some sources like EducatedLady has done, and compare notes. I'll try to include links to web pages in addition to pdf files if some people can't open them. Have a good weekend, everyone. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 04:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I've been reading all this stuff for a while and i think this whole thing is ridiculous, Educatedlady was born in 1982 and since i guess it's cooler to be called GENX she has been on a mission to change it to 1982 as the last date for gen x. I think it's very simple you take a poll and the amount of sources and books that say 1981 is the end date for GENX far outweighs the sources that use 1982. That should be enough right there to simply use 1981 as the cut off date send all the information to the admins and be done with it. I mean do you have any idea how many wiki articles you can change if you start using sources that are outweighed by there counterpart. I mean out 100 sources 85 of them use 1981 and 15 use 1982. That should be enough info to simply send to admins to have it permanently changed to 1981 as the end. I mean my god Educatedlady even tries to control the generation y page because that interferes with the gen x. The admins have to stop this madness. It's extremely simple the sources that use 1981 over 1982 are 10 to 1 maybe even more. I wish the admins would finally step in and stop this insanity and use 1981 as the cut and dry cut off date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.189.216 (talk) 07:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I have been asked to comment on a proposed pop culture section. However, I am not exactly sure what the "proposal" is, as I can't quite find a comprehensive one, though it is referred to several times. At any rate, my general feeling would be that a pop culture section should discuss things that were clearly popular with Gen Yers, that seems relatively straight forward. As usual these things should be reliably sourced, and I think for this we should rely on some real quantitative data, not just "puff" pieces in the entertainment media. Ideally there would be some analysis of the trends, rather than just listing off bands/movies/books that enjoyed periods of popularity with young people in the 90s-2010s.... IMO simply listing items has the potential to lead to edit wars, and massive time suck without adding a whole lot to the article, so we need to be careful. Anyway, if somebody wants to take a stab at it, please go ahead, and we can see what we can make of it. Peregrine981 (talk) 12:56, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Peregrine were you able to take a look at the article I posted from the New York Times regarding Harry Potter? It should help with the pop culture section. Thanks! Educatedlady (talk) 20:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, you could certainly use it as a source to say that Harry Potter was popular amongst "Gen Y" since that is basically what the article says, and has some fact to back it up. My own comments are:
I agree Peregrine. In attempting to find sources in regards to pop culture of Generation Y, it has been few and far between in terms of reliable sources. Many are message boards that cannot be used here. I know Millennials Rising references to "Pokeman" for Gen Y, that may be construed as a bit more reliable. Educatedlady (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
((edit semi-protected)) Generation X was preceding Lost Generation II
GenerationD (talk) 23:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Not done
I believe the following study is relevant to this Generation X Wikipedia article:
According to the Longitudinal Study of American Youth (LSAY), a long-term University of Michigan Institute for Social Research survey, despite being stereotyped as a bunch of insecure underachievers, most members of Generation X are leading active, balanced, and happy lives. The study, funded by the National Science Foundation since 1986, includes responses from approximately 4,000 Gen Xers – those born between 1961 and 1981. A report of the study was released today, 10/25/2011.
Sources: 1- http://www.sampler.isr.umich.edu/2011/research/xplaining-generation-x-u-m-survey-paints-a-surprisingly-positive-portrait/ 2- http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=122088&WT.mc_id=USNSF_51&WT.mc_ev=click 3- http://www.lsay.org/ 4- http://www.theatlantic.com/life/archive/2011/10/study-of-the-day-as-it-happens-the-gen-xers-turned-out-all-right/247152/ 5- http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-10-24/Generation-X-a-bunch-of-slackers-Not-so-says-new-study/50896198/1
--Emenezes (talk) 17:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Why is generation x in the UK supposed to have lived through "discussion over joining, an ultimately failed currency union, switching from pounds sterling to the Euro (1999)". I don't understand. Because the UK didn't join it, it failed? Because it hasn't. At least not yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.139.226.14 (talk) 20:01, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Gen X has been referred to the generation with parents divorcing in record numbers. While this is mentioned in the article there is no citation for the quote. I found a recent article on the subject, very informative that discussing the subject entailed. Before I add it to the article I wanted to post the link here for you all to read. I know we are all busy, I am just wanted to reach out to everyone in hopes of gaining some support/assistance with finding other articles that describe the generation in hopes of improving the article. Thanks all!
--Educatedlady (talk) 22:10, 21 July 2011 (UTC)http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576430341393583056.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read The Divorce Generation
I agree Peregrine. I understand the "generation fatigue" myself, which is why sometimes I take a break from the Wikipedia articles, and other entities as well like my own study. Thank you for the encouragement as well. I know you are in support of improving the article as a whole, and not so much about solely focusing on the dates. I will add the citation to the article. Thank you again. Educatedlady (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Well I agree with you Creative but we kind of have to be careful in incorporating Original Research here. While my parents (who were both boomers) divorced, in cases like with you some Gen Xers (or XY Cuspers) may have had parents that are still married. Just like I have many characteristics of Generation X (and Generation Y) demographers such as Strauss and Howe, have ignored the XY Cusp, therefore in complying with Wikipedia guidelines I have done my best to reply on sources. I think what the research is saying is Gen X is the first generation where parents divorced in larger numbers, as opposed to the Baby Boom generation, who's parents typically stayed married for the most part. While I think the article is informative, there is no harm in adding other sources as long as we are not oversaturating the wikipedia article. So please post what you have, I can open a PDF file on my computer. Thanks! Educatedlady (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Generation X lived their lives from the start in the knowledge or expectation they could stop rather suddenly due to a nuclear first strike. I suspect this influenced them a little more than the boomers. TO wrtite this off as their expoerience including "the end of the Cold War" seems to miss the reason that that end was significant. Midgley (talk) 18:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Contrary to what some others like to construe I am not advocating 1982 be part of the introduction for this article. There are "some" who want to maintain 1981 in the article, however since we are not using a beginning year (i.e. 1961) the use of 1981 and 1982 in the article's intro alludes the appearance of a debate in regards to the article. The average person sees Generation X as those born in the mid 1960s to about the mid 1970s, regardless of any source. Therefore when reading this article to suggest that 1981 and 1982 are part of this generation, it has to be somewhat baffling. Therefore to reference that authors, researchers have used a multitude of dates raging from the early 1960s to the early 1980s accurately reflects the number of sources out there and does not place a defining range within the article. The intro sets the tone for the entire article, which is why there has been years of debates in regards to this. I proposed a change to the early 1960s - the early 1980s be set for this article. This will decrease petty and immature debates and move towards a improving the article as a whole. Thoughts? And please look at this from an educational standpoint, not a personal one Edu Lady - Researcher 20:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Educatedlady (talk • contribs)
Thank you. I agree that it keeps the article neutral and doesn't promote any one author's conclusions. Also I'm on to the "sockpuppets" and I have been speaking with administrators about that. Edu Lady - Researcher 20:12, 21 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Educatedlady (talk • contribs)
I find it interesting and yet suspcious that there are various accounts or IP addresses (Gen X Kid for Life?? come on) that come here to promote the 1981 end date and to specifically attack me. So I have no choice but to be leery or suspicious when someone comes here with the exact same argument. You've been on Wikipedia for quite some time so you should know by now that Sockpuppets are violations of the Wikipedia policy. What is not being acknowledged is that there are a number of authors, sources that use 1981 with Generation Y along with 1982, again proving that there is not set in stone timeframe. I am asking for an increased neutrality within the article that doesn't promote any author, or source or year. That is why I am have been advocating for the last two years (next month to be exact) to use a less defined date range. Again Barack Obama was born in 1961 but has anyone been able to tie him to Generation X or the Baby Boom Generation? The sources I have found have either placed him in one or the other or "Generation Jones" or nothing at all. Edu Lady - Researcher 01:42, 29 July 2012 (UTC)