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What about merging this article and 2nd Ajdabiya article into Third Battle of Brega? (Or some other name, but keep it all in a single article.)
IMO all these actions represent a single continuous fight for the control of the Brega district. From hindsight, the incursion into Ajdabiya looks more like strategic defense-by-tactical-offense designed to give non-combat forces in Brega few days of calm to dig in and prepare long-term defensive positions. Destroying a bunch of rebel vehicles being just a nice benefit (We do not know whose tanks NATO bombed). I am just speculating here, but the "attack" on Ajdabiya seemed too light-hearted to me to count for a "Battle" ...Ihosama (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
We are again edit warring about what did the rebels mean when they said they could not enter Brega.
We are again in the same situation as in the 3rd Brega article. Let's not make the same mistakes again. Let's analyze what the rebels said then, and what was independently confirmed.
From that article I believe that rebelspeak We have entered/captured Brega means We have entered/captured New Brega.
That is the only way the rebel claims can be even considered WP:RS. We either assume good faith (then Brega == New Brega) or we need to dismiss rebel claims as far as their military advances go.Ihosama (talk) 22:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Rebels claimed to be launching an assault on Brega and they were reinforcing their position on the road, and advancing toward Brega. But they came under heavy rocket fire and now it appears clearly that they lost very quickly the ground gained and that Gaddafi forces are now kms away of Ajdabiya and shelling the city. The current fourth battle of Brega lasted less than one day and never really reached Brega it seems. It is enough to call an entire article for that? Should we merge it with the 2nd battle of Ajdabiya? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geromasis (talk • contribs) 11:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Ellsworth, the rebel commander itself said that his forces had pulled back under an attack of Gaddafi forces. The fight does not continue in Brega if the rebels pulled back to Ajdabiya. I can agree with the merging with the second Ajdabiya article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geromasis (talk • contribs) 16:38, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
We know the attack was halfway to Brega. It was reported yesterday. So they did not even reach Brega it seems. That's why I asked if it really happenned. From confirmed and reliable sources, they have just advanced toward the road (confirmed by AFP, Reuters) then they were attacked halfway (same sources) and now Younis say that they have pulled back and Gaddafi forces are in the position to shell Ajdabiya. The situation seems quite clear for me if we take account only the press agencies and the confirmation of the rebel commander. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geromasis (talk • contribs)
I propose that this fourth battle of Brega be merged back to 2nd Battle of Ajdabiya, only if the bombing of Ajdabiya continues tomorrow, and that article be renamed to Battle of Brega-Ajdabiya road, since yes it seems that 2nd Battle of Ajdabiya was just a raid into the town and not a real battle for the city (a BBC reporter called it just a raid). However, I am against merging the Late March rebel offensive and Third Battle of Brega with this article, because those were two totaly separate engagements. The first being a series of small-scale fights during a failed rebel offensive on the west of the country and the second being a full-scale battle for Brega which ended in another rebel defeat and loyalists consolidating their control over the city. EkoGraf (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Latest update from AJE Live Blog April 17 (1:16PM) on the situation here paints very interesting picture of the fighting here: "As fighting continues for Brega, home to several oil facilities, forces loyal to long time leader Muammar Gaddafi skirt that body of fighting and attack Ajdabiya from the south". Did the withdrawal order from Younis come after this? Or are there two cities being simultaneously attacked, one by each side.
Also, where should we put the information about the skirmishes along the Ajdabiya-Brega road? Should they remain as an incongruous "aftermath" of continued fighting to the ended 2nd Battle of Ajdabiya? Should they be included here? Should they have their own article? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:55, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
4th Brega? Really? I know I have been speaking to a wall here for awhile, but I will say (again) that this is a single Mechanized Warfare battle for Western Cyrenaica. Will it take until The Battle of 9th Brega before we finally decide to start merging some of these battles? ArcherMan86 (talk) 16:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I would agree in principle. Individual clashes do need mention, but they can be their own sub chapter in a more unified wiki page. Clashes of greater significance can of course have their own page, but by and large what we are witnessing is the normal back and forth inherent to a mechanized battle over a wide and open area. At the rate we are going, we will have dozens of battle pages by the end of the month. ArcherMan86 (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, this article based on only rebel claims, and completely ignoring goverment reports, and lacks independent verification.
Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7THQ-Ep8FT0 Or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nUn2299IGU
There is a lot of TV coverage, which is contradicts rebel reports.
TNC reports are proven to unreliable. For example according to them, Brega is occupied in the first day of the battle, and the secod day too, and surprise, the third day again. So it is imperative to mention that most of the information on this article is one sided, and lacks independent confirmation.
It looks like rebel forces has been badly beaten by goverment troops, even lost their supreeme commander during the battle. But there is no sign any of this in the article, which is looks like TNC PR.
War correspondence is a weapon of war itself. So claims of belligerent parties (rebel, or goverment) can not be trusted. Including NATO which is clearly deeply involved in this conflict. Kalpet (talk) 22:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
In essence I agree, but we do what we can with the sources that we have. My opinion is that the battle should be closed in a few days and declared eather as indecisive or loyalist victory because there has been no new fighting at Brega for six days now. EkoGraf (talk) 03:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
It is clear now, that this offensive was unsuccessfull. They lost cca. a batallion strenght in manpower, and dozens of vehicles, without any significant gain. I agree, that resources are limited, but suspicious sources can be marked in the text, and there is other sources avilable, for example goverment video feeds. For example it is clear now, that the rebel claims about the retreat of government forces, and the encirlement of Brega, are lacks any credibility. Kalpet (talk) 12:56, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Kalpet, another honest ‘spokesman’ for the Gadaffi regime, which as we all know is a bastion of truth and justice for the last 30 years. Brega an area 20km X8km is surrounded, Eastern brega and the university are in NLA control, a major demining operation is underway – with limited independent verification to support. See http://wikimapia.org/#lat=30.4232167&lon=19.6497345&z=13&l=0&m=b&v=1
[ V’s Kalpet version of events ] – no battle, rag tag group of disorganised and now leaderless rebels, never went beyond 40 mark, Gadaffi in full control of Brega, not surrounded, 500+ rebels dead, no mines only excuse for failure. etc etc.. As limited reporters allowed into zone – its easy to attack credibility of “news” but wait and time will tell my friend.Windandsea (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Rebels have themselves confirmed they have pulled back from the town and are anywhere from 5 to 20 kilometers from the town. And if it were only 300 loyalists left as they claim (in a town of only 7,000 citizens) logic dictates that the town would have fallen by now. It is obvious by now that what the rebel council in Benghazi says is contradictory with what rebel commanders on the front say. A rebel commander said a few days ago that they are now facing 1,000 loyalists in the town. So eather they lied that there were only 300 or they lied that the town was surrounded and the loyalists got another 700 reinforcements. I am inclined more to belive rebel frontline commanders than rebel politicians or generals. In any case, the battle has obviously ended by now and should be closed with the result eather being a stalemate/indecisive (town partialy surrounded but still held by loyalists) or loyalist victory (rebels failed to take the town). EkoGraf (talk) 21:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
After 4 months of conflict, very few civilians remain in brega as many prior articles and direct accounts from formal residents support. Brega as you know is a prise oil/income asset that neither side wish to destroy, but which Gadaffi has promised to annihilate if lost to NLA. As NLA claim to surround the town, are removing large quantities of mines that would impede a rapid advance, and attempting to win over the reported poor moral of loyalist soldiers through defections/capture seems a more logical approach and sound strategy to this analyst. The 300 number maybe low balling it, but really how many troops does it take to set explosives in highly sensitive oil refinery and pumping equipment. I recommend waiting until this Saturday before concluding this 'battle', as progress is still being reported around brega south/south east[eg process of surrounding brega via the taking khourguidh 2 days ago.] http://wikimapia.org/#lat=30.3473614&lon=19.8743105&z=15&l=0&m=b&v=1 Windandsea (talk) 22:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The Washington post did a great article on demining operation in Kikla earlier today, with Sappers removing 1,000’s anti-personal mines over prior few days. In my country it’s a war crime to use these against another country, and against your own people its just madness –as they will be around to haunt and kill Libyan’s for decades to come. [1]Windandsea (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
It's already been exactly 7 days since the last direct clashes between rebels and loyalists occured, seems most editors belive that the battle is over (see talk below). We can wait another 5 days, I have no problem with that, but if a majority of editors want to close it now I have no problem with that eather and support it. And personaly belive nothing new will happen in the next five days, I may be proven wrong and that a shift in lines occurs, but that is my oppinion. EkoGraf (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
References
Is there any independent source about this case?--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 11:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe he is alive. http://www.arabstoday.net/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16770:death-of-adbul-fatah-younis-denied&catid=20:home-also-in-the-news Kalpet (talk) 13:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
He is allegedly arrested today in Benghazi by a military task force, headed by Gen. Jala Dogheili.[2] What is going there?! --Kalpet (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC) "The arrest order was given by the Transitional National Council of Benghazi on the basis of information about younes recent secret contacts with the Qaddafi government."[3] --Kalpet (talk) 12:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
He was eather killed two weeks ago at the start of the battle, like it was originaly reported, and they postponed to announce it so the rebels won't loose moral. Or, he was realy killed today, but, by all accounts, he was most likely killed by the rebels themselves, since he was originaly reported to had been under arrest for possible continuing ties with Gaddafi, and now they are trying to pin the blame on Gaddafi supporters. Because, if he was killed by loyalists, why was it initialy reported that he had been arrested for alleged continuing links to Gaddafi? It would have been a major embarasment for the rebels if it came out that their top general leading the war was still a loyalist, undercover. EkoGraf (talk) 22:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Few days there are no any reports about fighting, si I think that we can close this battle, and star again battle on Brega-Ajdabiya road.--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 11:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I am for closing this battle and the result being eather indecisive or stalemate (rebels managed to partialy surround the town but loyalists still hold it) or loyalist victory (since rebels failed to capture the town). However, I am against it being merged into the previous Brega-Ajdabiya article because those were previously mostly skirmishes and raids against both Ajdabiya and Brega. This was a full-blown battle/offensive. EkoGraf (talk) 21:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a difference between on the one side Misrata and Nafusa article and on the other side the Brega article. Those two are campaigns, while Brega is a single battle/offensive. Campaigns can go on far longer than battles/offensives, that's why we didn't close those two when there was no fighting. However, if there is no major change in the next few days this article will warrant a close. There have been no reports of fighting at Brega for nine days now, since July 19 (day of the big ambush). Also, that video that showed rebels in supposedly residential Brega can't be confirmed as legit since the rebs could be using the same tactic as the libyan government and use recycled footage from their earlier takeover. Also, how do we even know that's Brega in the video? o.O EkoGraf (talk) 01:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Hehe, guess that makes my point. :) Thanks Kalpet. EkoGraf (talk) 16:29, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree the battle is probably over. Like the other time, the rebels launched an offensive on Brega with a lot of good hopes then they started to take heavy casualties, with reports stating a lot of amputations due to mines. The last day they took more than 25 death and pulled out of the town. Each time they meet heavy casualties they retreat. The lack of clashes despite rebels claiming there are on Brega outskirts means they are in fact way outside of the city. This is not the first time rebels claimed to have taken Brega when it was clearly not the case. --FreemanSA (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I believe this should be added to the article [19] Libyan rebels also said they had moved closer to Brega, and were now positioned 5 to 7 km from the east of the oil town. Fighting at Brega had slowed over the past two weeks as the rebels struggled to defuse hundreds of thousands of mines planted by Gaddafi's forces. Rebels said they planned to advance soon on Brega, where some 3,000 heavily armed government troops remain positioned. however I dont think it is sufficent to change battle to ongoing and also I dont know how would we add it into the Aftermath section. Any idea? --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
So now , one guy come 2 days after the discussion ended and the consensus was reached and can revert back what was decided by editors saying that nobody objected his change? I smell that soon the same editor will change it in rebels victory soon when they will once more claim to have retaken the city while it's not the case. --FreemanSA (talk) 14:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
What is happening now are just rebel raids into Brega, not a total battle for the town and not a continuation of the previous battle (there was two weeks of non-fighting in between). Also, check todays source [21], the rebels said they maid a raid into the eastern residential neighborhood before pulling back. I think that proves finaly they don't hold New Brega as they claimed. What is happening now has its rightfull place in the Aftermath section....And by the way, FreemanSA is not alone in his opinion. It's two against two. :D EkoGraf (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Maybe change the title of the Aftermath section to "Continuing Raids" or some such until we see how the situation develops. If another offensive is launched, this could be described in two phases of one battle. 97.75.142.190 (talk) 13:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
With a two-week break? EkoGraf (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The battle is still going on if the rebels are still trying to take the town. In World War I nobody moved it was essentially a stalemate, but the battle was still going on. The battle is not over until the rebels are pushed out/away from the town completely without being able to get back in. 122.105.134.153 (talk) 21:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of weather or not the battle is over I would question if it should be called a Gaddafi victory since the rebels did gain ground (not sure if they have the city surrounded)perhaps something like Gaddafi tactical victory would be more accurate?71.195.122.131 (talk) 07:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Support "Gaddafi tactical victory" per 71.195.122.131's explanation, and EkoGraf, okay, you've got a point with the two-week break. This is why we should have an Eastern Front (Libya) or similar page, IMHO. 97.75.142.190 (talk) 15:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
They didn't gain any ground in the city itself. They initialy claimed to had almost total control of the town, which was later found to be untrue. Than they claimed to had control of the eastern residential district, now they say they are conducting raids into eastern Brega and than pulling back. So again untrue that they took control of it. They have neather surrounded the town (western route still loyalist controlled) or taken control of any part of the town. The rebels claimed that only 300 loyalists were left, than they said later 1,000 were still in the town, and now the news reports are back on the 3,000 figure. No major fighting for two weeks now. So the rebels didn't score any strategic victory. The loyalists managed to defend the town. There is a difference between a battle/offensive and a campaign. This battle is over for two weeks now. You may not like the outcome, but that is how it is. Concencuss was reached. So please, skirmishes and raids are not a battle/offensive. If a new battle starts we open a new article. That's how it goes. Thank you. EkoGraf (talk) 15:56, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
The only reason i suggested changing the end status of the battle from pro-Gaddafi victory to something else is because just below that it says that the rebels did gain some ground. I think a good analogy might be operation market garden in WW2 when allies gained ground but failed at all there objectives. (Wikipedia called that an "allied operational failure")71.195.122.131 (talk) 21:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC))
Again, however you try to word it differently, the loyalists were victorious in the end by defeating the rebel attack on the city. Don't understand what the problem is now. This was a full-on battle for the city and different from raids and skirmishes. If there is a new battle than that is a new article. Current raids and skirmishes are not a battle for the town, by any definition. EkoGraf (talk) 23:05, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that Gaddafi clearly won the battle but having looked at other battles on wikipedia there are more specific ways of labeling them that may apply to this battleMonteMiz (talk) 23:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I also think that the battle is mainly over, except for the occasion of rebel skirmishes in the area, but in the results section, I think that the part about pro-Gadhafi forces repelling the rebel attack should be removed, because they didn't repel the attack, the rebels retreated and were halted by thousands of randomly scattered mines. Instead, it should say that the rebels retreated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.185.194 (talk) 06:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Why did they retreat? Because they were repelled by the loyalists using the mine-field and thanks to that rocket attack the final day that killed 27 rebels. They retreated for a reason, because they were repelled. EkoGraf (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry FreemanSA and EkoGraf, you guys are right, the reason the rebels retreated is because pro-gaddafi forces repelled the attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.185.194 (talk) 20:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for any confusion from my post. At the time, sources were saying that the rebels 'had' advanced somewhat into parts of Brega. That seems less than clear now and fairly unlikely, so the description under "Pro-Gaddafi" victory matches all reliable sources we have. So... my comment would be, should we, instead of bickering over how long a break should be for it to be considered a separate battle (I agree with EkoGraf, 2 weeks is too long to qualify it as the same battle), or how many people it takes to make a battle and not a clash/conflict/raid/luau, or anything of the sort, why don't we make an Eastern Front (Libya) or Brega-Ajdabiya Campaign or something of the sort so we can at least plug this information in there? There's too much time between events to say they're the same battle, the previous offensive was it's own event and didn't succeed in its objectives. There might be another battle, but these raids (and even many of the raids that constitute the Battle of Brega-Ajdabiya Road) could very comfortable fit into an article with a slightly larger scope. 97.75.142.190 (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
References
Have general Younis killed in action by government forces or by NTC forces?--Vojvodae please be free to write :) 08:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
No reliable information. My bet is on Khalifa Hifter. --Kalpet (talk) 09:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree, most likely a faction of the NTC killed him. Their official statemant was he was killed by an unknown group. Oh my God what an embarrassment it would have been for them if it came out that possibly he was a double agent hehe. EkoGraf (talk) 15:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Official statement [22][23] he was killed by the rebel secret police, the February 17 Brigade. So would you please stop having so much faith into what the rebels say? It has been proven by now time and again that in this war they are as much liers as the loyalists are. And I don't trust eather of them (loyalist or rebel) until I hear independent confirmation from Reuters or some such. EkoGraf (talk) 00:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Talk like this more belongs on someone's talkpage or sandbox, since we're treating it more like a forum here. Oh well. In any case there are so many possibilities that we should just wait for more info to come out. Some possibilities:
1. Younis was a Gaddafite double agent, and the NTC was going to arrest him and figure out, so Gaddafites killed him to prevent them from getting info.
2. Younis was caught up in some factional struggle within the rebel military.
3. Younis was killed by members of the Gaddafi fifth column to diminish rebel morale, or (4) to try to cause disunity by igniting tribal rivalries (which if its the case, seems to be working).
5. Younis was killed by rebels who happened to have a personal vendetta against him.
and so on... get the idea? --Yalens (talk) 22:09, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
I believe this should be merged into Battle of Brega–Ajdabiya road just as was done with 2nd Ajdabiya and previous rebel attempts to re-take Brega. Rebels may have prepared for this for a longer time, mass bigger offensive force and train more recruits however if the battle in which loyalist forces were able to occupy suburbs of Ajdabiya should be part of that article I fail to see why this shouldn´t. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:38, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
I tried to removed the killed in action tag, but i dont think i did it correctly. in any case younis was not killed in action but arrested and murdered later after the timeline given for this battle at the top of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.168.107 (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
If you do remove the killed in action tag, put something else that lets people know that he was killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.185.194 (talk) 04:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Fighting in Brega restarted today, the battle hasn't quite ended yet. [26] If you still don't think its the same battle because of the lull in fighting, just look at the battle of Brega-Ajdabiya road and how long that took. 70.187.185.194 (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Please read the previous discussions, we have been over this. The Brega-Ajdabiya road thing was a campaign, not a battle, there is a big difference, campaigns last over longer periods of time with pauses, battles/offensives are one continues thing. There has been no fighting at Brega for three weeks since the battle ended. And what is happening now can't be called a battle. At best a skirmishes. 02:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)EkoGraf (talk)
Ok, maybe the main portion of the battle is over, but what's happening in Brega are more than just minor skirmishes, this is a rebel offensive, and it should be addressed as more than just the aftermath. To quote the advances, "Mohammad al-Rijali says rebels forces advanced Tuesday into Brega..." How about changing the result to say "Pro-Gaddafi victory; ongoing skirmishes." And to address the no fighting in Brega since the battle "ended", the rebels just started fighting in Brega today. See the link I posted in my earlier comment for proof. And I'd be more than happy to post new articles/links about Brega whenever new developments occur. 70.187.185.194 (talk) 03:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Rebels said that they were positionned 5-10 km of Brega and they have claimed advancing since 5 days now and still have not reached the city? It seems more like some skirmishes than a battle for the moment. --FreemanSA (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Agree with FreemanSA, except the rebels nobody else reported an advance on Brega, nobody, no major media outlets. By all accounts its just another rebel propaganda stunt, most likely, given their situation, to divert attention from the turmoil in Benghazi that HAS been reported by major media outlets. :) EkoGraf (talk) 19:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The main bulk of the rebel forces are around 5 km from Brega, but the actual front line is closer than that. Even on the 4th battle of Brega page it says that an AFP reporter was taken to the front line, which they said is next to the residential area of Brega, so they have reached the city. And these aren't skirmishes, this is real fighting. The reporter heard artillery duels. Why is this classified as aftermath? This is the real deal, it's a two-part battle. 69.235.80.27 (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Journalist were taken on the frontline. Northen one is on the hill overlooking the New Brega, the closest hill I found on Google Maps to New Brega is about 4km east of it, there are some hightened ground little bit closer but I can hardly figure out the exact terrain from satellite images. Anyway I already added the informations from here [27], at least one frontline is confirmed and we know where it is. Also I like to point out this part of the article The battle for Brega has been grinding on for weeks as the rebels make tentative pushes through the approaches to the town, which Gaddafi's forces have strewn with land mines.. So you figure out wether it ended or not, I believe my opinion on this matter is known to every editor here. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The battle is ongoing and has been ongoing for weeks, per WP:RS Reuters (Ellsworth's link above). I am going to alter the article to reflect this. If you disagree, please present a reliable source that says that the battle ended. Simply saying "no fighting reported" and speculating on rebel motivations for reporting advances is WP:OR. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
There had been a 3-week break between the previous battle/offensive and this one. That one is done and over. If there is a new battle, and thats a big IF considering rebels claimed 20 times by now to had taken Brega, than we start a new article. The fourth battle of Brega is over, the fifth may start, than we start a new article. Artillery duels/skirmishes don't constitute an all out offensive, which was the last time 3 weeks ago. Ellsworth's source talks about, rebel claimed, advances through the minefields along the 20 kilometers of the road, there was no battle for the town itself in the last three weeks. Its obvious that Reuters reporter was talking about those skirmishes and raids that have been ongoing not a full-on battle for the town. Except that Reuters reporter no one has been reporting a battle for the town in the last three weeks, only raids, skirmishes and halting advances through the minefield. EkoGraf (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
If this is a new battle for the town, which I would wait for at least one more day to confirm, than we start a new article because this may be a new offensive/battle to take the town. New offensive, new battle, new article. Again, the previous rebel offensive on the town was stopped by the loyalists in its tracks, you cant simply deny it. And your statement that rebel officials never claimed victory is not true. A spokesman for the Benghazi council claimed they controlled most of Brega at one point and the French foreign minister himself also claimed the rebels had full control of the town. I have already talked to Lothar, the Reuters reporters statement can be interpreted more along the lines of a battle for those last 20 kilometers of road to Brega than for the town itself. And, for the sake of compromise, I have proposed that we make the Fourth battle of Brega part of the Brega-Ajdabiya road campaign, but still keep a separate article for the battle. And if there is a fifth battle, which this right now may be the beginning of, than we also say that the Fifth battle is also part of the Brega-Ajdabiya campaign. EkoGraf (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
First of all, I think this is very much its own battle, and is very different from the Brega-Ajdabiya road campaign, except for the stalemate part. And the fighting occurring right now is very much not a different battle, because there was fighting even when the rebels retreated and when the fourth battle supposedly "ended". There wasn't extreme fighting, but there were clashes. The rebels are simply beginning phase two of the battle, just like previous battles that have had more than one phase, such as the Brega-Ajdabiya road campaign, the battle of Wazzin, the battle of Ras Lanuf, and the battle of Ajdabiya, all perfectly good examples of why the battle of Brega can be, and is, a two-phase battle. But I agree that we should wait a day before we make any big changes. However, I think that the changes that should be made now are, first, changing it to a two part battle, which would have the second part ongoing, and, secondly, changing the result to "Pro-Gaddafi victory (first phase); ongoing clashes (second phase)." 69.235.80.27 (talk) 23:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh P.S., here's a link stating that the rebels are about to move into Brega very, very soon, though it may just be a propaganda to boost morale: [30] 69.235.80.27 (talk) 23:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Same claim since 3 months --FreemanSA (talk) 02:17, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree with that. 70.187.185.194 (talk) 02:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's a link stating that the rebels are at the gates of Brega, poised to attack, confirmed by an AFP correspondent. [31] 70.187.185.194 (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Compromise reached between Lothar, Ells and me, this battle stays closed and as a separate article but we have included it as part of the Brega-Ajdabiya road campaign which is still ongoing. EkoGraf (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, sounds good to me. Oh btw, here's an article claiming that the rebels captured a residential area in Brega: [32] 69.235.80.27 (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Would give that at least a couple of more days to be confirmed because it seems nobody is taking the rebels seriously anymore after claiming 20 times in the past that they took the residential district. The report itself says It was not immediately possible for a Reuters reporter to verify the capture of Brega and rebels have repeatedly claimed to have seized towns, only to be repelled by Gaddafi's forces. EkoGraf (talk) 00:00, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, let's wait at least another day before confirming anything. I'll post any articles I see regarding the rebels taking Brega. Oh, and for the future, I propose that we stop using this talk page and switch over to the one on the Brega-Ajdabiya road page, just to make things easier, since were not posting any new info on this page anymore. Please agree or oppose, like we did in the merger proposal. 69.235.80.27 (talk) 00:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
(this post was originally in an edit-conflict with the above post, being posted at the same time- it counts as Oppose I guess though) In my opinion, the 4th Battle of Brega (if you call that the "fourth") actually ending was questionable, since the rebels had not retreated from the outskirts of the city, and it seems now they have retaken some residential districts as according to Al Jazeera. Either this is the reheating of a "frozen" battle, or this is a different battle. But the way wikipedia has it currently makes it seem like the current fighting at Brega isn't happening at all: this page (the 4th) says the 4th is over, but there is no page for the 5th (which is supposedly being covered by "Brega-Ajdabiya road" despite hte fact that the battle is over the city and not the road). We can't have it both ways. Either this battle never ended, or we need to make a 5th Battle of Brega page (I'm not against waiting just a little, perhaps working on a proto-5th battle page in sandbox... but we need to cover it or at least prepare to cover it somehow). --Yalens (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I still believe that this battle is not over, but, for the sake of compromise, I agreed to end this battle and cover it in Brega-Ajdabiya road page. But this is not the 5th battle, by all means, the 4th just hasn't ended. I propose, once again, to make this a two-phase battle, and I need to know who supports me. Sorry, but once again, I ask you to either agree or oppose. :) 69.235.80.27 (talk) 01:30, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Considering the rebel's track record on the eastern front about the truth its questionable if there even is a battle for the town, except the occasional artillery duels. Thats why I recomended to wait another day or so. If something has indead happened and it is confirmed I would grudgingly lean toward the two-phase solution. Wouldn't oppose it anymore. But than again, if we did go with the two-phase solution than I would strongly advocate that the Brega-Ajdabiya road campaign be closed at the start of the Fourth Brega battle. EkoGraf (talk) 05:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
A little less than one month ago, rebels stated that they took Brega and it was very far from the truth as they were in fact defeated and oushed back. The claim that they have done today is even less triomphalist than their previous one and their estimation of Gaddafi forces remaining in the city seems absurd (100 men only). It seems that the wikipedia community has already been abused by some misinformation about the situation in Brega in the past and same errors should not be made again.--Archeopteryx5 (talk) 14:42, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
They captured the residential complex not all of Brega which is divided into three areas IIRC, the residential complex is about 6-8 km from the port and industrial facilities. I don't know if they are already reports about that, but there is already some footage from takeover of that area. Also the whole fight for this city should be gathered in one simple article instead of four or five like now.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:11, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Different periods, different battles. First one was in early March (when the rebels beat back the loyalists and made an unsuccessfull dash for west Libya), second one was in mid-March (when loyalists took the town), third was in early April (when loyalists re-took the town after a brief retreat), fourth is ongoing since mid-July (with no end in sight). EkoGraf (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
The rebel offensive has seemed to stalled and it looks like another stalemate so would the second phase be considered over? Noneofyour (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
All of Brega has now been liberated. (92.7.2.245 (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2011 (UTC))
Rebels have retreated from the industrial zone after heavy artillery fire back toward the residential area. So much for an end to the battle. Guess the stalemate continues. EkoGraf (talk) 17:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
The rebels are in complete control of all of Brega. The battle is over and won. (92.7.2.245 (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC))
Xinhuanet? Ok, how about the BBC than [35] who confirmed it via a rebel military commander? You going to tell me BBC is pro-Gaddafi? Quoting the source - A rebel military spokesman, Col Ahmed Bani, confirmed that rebel forces had fallen back in Brega. I get it you are all anti-gaddafi and such but POV-pushing has not and will not be tolerated on Wikipedia. Leave your personal feelings at the door when editing on Wikipedia. EkoGraf (talk) 19:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
The BBC is left-wing crap. (92.7.2.245 (talk) 19:20, 20 August 2011 (UTC))
It was confirmed by Al Jazeera's Libya Live Blog as well. Is that enough evidence to satisfy you? Noneofyour (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
So in esence by your comment The BBC is left-wing crap. you confirm that you are a right-wing radical who can not stay neutral? EkoGraf (talk) 20:31, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
ABSOLUTELY. I would have killed Gaddafi as soon as he started arming the IRA in 1972. So glad President Reagan bombed Tripoli in 1986. We should have done this many years ago. Oh, and the rebels are still in the industrial zone. (92.7.2.245 (talk) 21:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC))
I agree with EkoGraf on this one, multiple sources have confirmed that the rebels retreated from the industrial area when they came under intense shelling & artillery fire. 69.235.80.27 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, in your last comment when editing the article you said Yes - we are still in the industrial zone. And in your last comment here on the talk page you said I would have killed Gaddafi as soon as he started arming the IRA in 1972.....We should have done this many years ago. So in essence you have proven now that you are indeed also a Libyan rebel. That, in combination with your behavior that you can not hold a neutral standpoint, doesn't give you the right to edit on Wikipedia anymore and if you continue to remove sourced information I will report you to an administrator to be blocked. The essence of Wikipedia is editing based on neutrality and verifibility. On both accounts you fail. And commenting on Wikipedia that you want someone to die (which you said on the talk page of the main article on the war) or be killed (and even you killing someone yourself), is in all ways not acceptable behavior here on Wikipedia and is despicable. EkoGraf (talk) 05:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
That is not for Wikipedia to judge, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. We edit per verified reports from international media, not based on personal opinions. EkoGraf (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Don't realy know about most. Most of the western countries would agree yes, but I don't get that kind of impression from the rest of the world. In any case, this is not the place for these kinds of discussions. EkoGraf (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Only Cuba and Venezala regard the mental freak favourably. (92.7.3.54 (talk) 16:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC))
Its amazing how off topic this has come. Noneofyour (talk) 16:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Not really since the bastard should have been killed at least 25 years ago. (92.7.3.54 (talk) 17:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC))
On another topic, The rebels just took the industrial zone of Brega: [36] 70.187.185.194 (talk) 17:24, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I believe it said they entered, not took. Noneofyour (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
All of Brega has been liberated by the freedom fighters now. (92.7.3.54 (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2011 (UTC))
Now that Brega and Las Ranuf have been captured, would it not be a good idea to create a new page and title it something like the Late august rebel offensive - sort of like the one in March? 68.32.79.252 (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
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