![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-12-28. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Dom emailed the administrators to seek a determination of whether this material is acceptable within the confines of Wikipedia.
I've removed some potentially problematic sections from this article, following discussion with other admins on IRC. The sections involved make some serious allegations, and are largely unsourced, sourced using sources not allowed on Wikipedia (blogs and mailing list archives, for example) or sourced to opinion pages whose accuracy is at least questionable. If some more reliable sources can be assembled, please do so, but please discuss any major changes here on the talk page. --bainer (talk) 08:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, sorry for the slow reply everyone. A few points, firstly, could everyone remember please to sign your posts on talk pages? It makes it much easier for everyone (particularly outsiders) to follow the discussion. As to the issue at hand, the reason I removed much of the content here was because it was essentially unsourced. This presents a particularly serious problem when the content discusses such a serious topic as this, and when the content is inserted into an article about a person. For a more detailed explanation of why this is a problem, see Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons.
Note that although I removed the content, there is no problem covering the raids in Wikipedia, provided that all content is verifiable and provided that reliable sources are cited. I have started a new page at British Columbia legislature police raids scandal, and I encourage everyone to help make that an excellent article (the article uses the <ref> reference system, see m:Cite/Cite.php for an explanation of how it works).
Finally, there should be no more edits to this article about this subject, at least until the main article on the raids scandal has reached a comprehensive standard of coverage. Please direct all your edits to that article. Thank you. --bainer (talk) 00:54, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the editorializing about tactics used during the Paul Martin leadership campaign. Let's leave that to the pundits and keep this encyclopedia about the facts. I also removed the Tyee link given that the author is a well known NDP political pundit.
I also question the appropriateness of including snippets of unproven allegations from police warrants. Again, this is an encyclopedia, not a compendium of breaking news about Bornman. I would suggest that we wait until all the information is out and allegations are proven or disproven before we start including them in a biography as fact. It is entirely appropriate for the CBC to report on the contents of the warrants...it was news. But this is an ongoing story where new information comes out daily. Given that, it is difficult to give a definitive account as one would expect from an encyclopedia.
I am worried that the objective here from certain posters is to write the most negative bio of Bornman rather than the most accurate.
--Sharon Rosie
Allegations, even when made by police, are still allegations. Is the new standard to add, in everyone's bio, everything they are accused of -Guilty or not? - Hammerhead
Erik Bornman is presently articling in Toronto, Ontario. He is student member of the Law Society of Upper Canada.
I gather that Bornman (with one N) was a professional name that he used. Bornmann seems to be the family name (google his brother Roy) and it is also the name that Bornmann uses now (according to his link) and would seem to be his legal name also. I suspect that it always was. So I'm going to move (rename) the article to reflect this. --JGGardiner 19:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Some users continue to put Wikipedia at risk by posting information on the "Erik Bornmann" that is simply untrue. Typically this information is sourced to political blogs and or commentators. Bornmann is Crown witness and it is evident that individuals either sympathetic to those that have been criminally charged or subscribing to different political views are attempting to ruin his credibility by making slanderous and outlandish edits to this page. This is similar to the type of activity we've seen on other wikipedia bios for political figures. This is not a court nor the floor of a legislature and these posts have no place here.
So what happened to Pilot House? The intro says that it became a leading firm. Since it was created only five years ago, one think that was still the case from reading the article. Is it? Does Bornmann have any involvement with them? The article is rather confusing to read because it is out of chronological order. --JGGardiner 18:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the fact that this has become a forum for cronies of those that have been criminaly charged to attack an individual that has come forward to testify on behalf of the crown. Wikipedia must be concerned by the fact that the encyclopedia is being abused in this way. I encourage others to remain vigilant in preventing this continued abuse.
--rascalpatrol 01:08, 01 December 2006 (UTC)
I recognize that not everyone understands the nature of the information available or processes associated with the BC Rail trial, but until the trial there is no certainty about the facts relating to this matter. This is the case even though theories are often tossed about in political blogs and other opinion pieces and then inappropriately added to this site. The bottom line is that unless someone has access to information currently subject to a court sealing order, they do not have the full story. -- an regular visitor to this page
Things seem to be a little heated here so I just want to remind everyone to keep things civil. Also, it isn't cool to edit someone else's comments. You really shouldn't edit a comment, other than your own, unless it is truly problematic (offensive, threatening, etc). Thanks everyone. --JGGardiner 04:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think "cool" matters much to these guys. I have nothing against Mr. Bornman, but I added a comment here that included a link to the Law Society of Upper Canada web site's information about its proceedings against him. My comment was removed. I just recalled this case while reading a Globe and Mail interview with Virk and Basi of legislature raids fame. Bornman is only notable for his involvement in the raids--quaere whether he would merit inclusion in wikipedia if it was not for his involvement. To have nothing about the raids in an article about him is a major oversight.
The above poster (who posted on Christmas day :( ) protests a little too much. He or she should also check out Wikipedia's policy on opinion articles. Opinion articles are not verifiable content and do not belong here. I have reviewed this page and am satisfied that Bornmann has an accomplished and varied, although still young, career, which is notable for its contribution to the Liberal Party of Canada and BC student politics. This page is not out of line with other Wikipedia entries. Given the traffic to this site I'm sure Bornmann would prefer if this page was taken down, but I think it should stay. I think the above poster is a little confused as to the facts surrounding the so called raids. Bornmann is a witness for the authorities, so we will not really know what his role is/was until he testifies at the upcoming trial. Speculation as to what might come out at this trial and opinion is not encyclopedic content.
SaintNickIX 10:24, 26 December 2006 (PST)
Hmmmm... it looks like the usual time-on-his-hands gremlin is back. Our funny little friend needs to find a day job
Randy3 02:38, 28 December 2006 (PST)
There's no logical reason for keeping the photo gallery link, is there? It does not provide any additional information about the subject, and there is no discussion of his photography hobby anywhere in the article. I will remove it at this point, but if another editor feels it is useful, please feel free to re-add. Risker 06:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
An hour spent with Google tonight produced the following sources that provide background concerning Mr Bornmann that may be useful in adding content to the Erik Bornmann article. A press release by his lawyer in Ontario, and a related canada.com article. Tyee article, an essay he apparently did, Delta Optimist Article, A reference to him in question period in the BC legislature and another one. Something from CTV news, from Burnaby now, and two pieces from CBC 1 and 2. Something from Victoria voices, and from Mr Bornmann's own work and from Andrew Coyne who I think is a Globe and Mail columnist. These are at least a starting point. KenWalker | Talk 07:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has very strict policies regarding articles on living people. Given the tendentious nature of this article, I have applied them strictly, removing all unreferenced information, and would ask that everyone else do the same with this article. Please only include information that is verifiable and reliably sourced. Any information that is not referenced will be removed. Proto::► 12:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I want to remind everyone that personal attacks are not tolerated, even if they are made in the context of providing other relevant information. Try and stick to the content and the edits rather than the other users. If your post is just about another editor, it probably isn't something that you should write anyway. Remember the talk pages are for improving the articles. And just a little correction to the post above mine, Skookum was blocked and not banned (he actually notes just above that post). There is a difference in WP terminiology. Thanks everyone. --JGGardiner 06:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As the record of the AFD is no longer linked through these pages, I thought it best to post it here so newcomers to this page can see "what went down" and why the ongoing shuffle of data (which, no doubt, will continue, unless the sockpuppets and their puppetmaster(s) have been blocked....which they should be IMO).Skookum1 00:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I have semi-protected the page due to continual disruptive editing from a connfirmed sock farm. Proto::► 11:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Just thought I should comment on sources I included. I cited the police warrant that was posted by the CBC, but only for his full date of birth, which should be an acceptable source for uncontroversial information, but wouldn't be for other stuff. I also cited Bornman's own writing, but again, only for his political work experience, not for anything contentious. Perhaps a better 3rd party source could replace it later, and more details added, but for now, this article conforms to all the relevant policies. The only point of information that isn't sourced is that 3 more were charged in 2006, which I didn't come across this round, so if someone else is so inclined, please add a citation, although again, I don't think that's controversial information, and certainly doesn't blemish Bornmann's reputation. As is, this is probably one of the best sourced stubs on Wikipedia. I'm sure more material will come up when information starts trickling out of the trial proceedings. In the meantime, BC Legislature Raids is in desperate need of clean-up. Bobanny 19:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Complete with Wikipedia usernames and snippets from this Talk page: Erik Bornmann article on Wikipedia proves highly controversial: a tale of intrigue and attack of the "Sock Puppets". No comment/I'm clueless about whether it's an accurate description of what's been going on. Kla'quot 04:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
From: "RCMP Targeted Aides", Vancouver Sun - 28 April 07
Don't have time to fit into the article, or any similar new material on BC Legislature Raids; that should probably not be the article on the Basi-Virk Trial, though, but on the "event" of the raids themselves. The larger and increasingly complex scandal/controversy swirling around the evidence being revealed at the trial should be its own article; Legislature Raids Cover-up maybe or my preference is Ledgegate but that's not "in currency" (yet).Skookum1 20:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
It is worth stating that the payments Bornmann is alleged to have made are illegal payments. Removing the word illegal strips a relevant and important characteristic of what he is alleged to have done. User "Rightoh" has removed the word illegal. This omission leaves open the possibility that the payments were legal and if that were the case there would be far less importance placed on what Bornmann is alleged to have done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Opennicropachy (talk • contribs) 04:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this has been linked in teh article yet; this is the article in the Vancouver Sun giving links to the full texts of the warrants, including Bornmann's information to the police.Skookum1 (talk) 09:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on Erik Bornmann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add ((cbignore))
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add ((nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot))
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Erik Bornmann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:13, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Erik Bornmann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)