![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment that ended on 3 December 2009. Further details are available here. |
Alright, I'm probably just being anal about this, but how should his first name be spelled (kinda important since it's the title of this article)? I thought for a long time that it was Dietrich, as here, as does the sixth edition of Grout. The thing is, New Grove has Dieterich, not simply as the first possibility for spelling, but the only possibility. Now, I know spelling wasn't that standardized, but usually Grove will put a couple of spellings if they were used frequently. The question is, should we leave it, and I'll just get over my obsession with the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, or should the article be moved to Dieterich Buxtehude? My disordered reasoning
I guess the cons have outnumbered, but I just can't get over the fact that New Grove has Dieterich. I move to move it, despite all these difficulties. Any other opinions? Makemi 03:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I am strongly in favor of "Dieterich" as the spelling to use, and intend to move this page accordingly in the next couple days. The leading authority on Buxtehude, Kerala J. Snyder, has adopted this spelling, and the New Grove has followed suit. This is, by far, the leading English musicological resource, and I think we should adopt its stance. I give Snyder's reasoning below.
-Snyder 1987, p. xvi
-Snyder 1987, p. 11
In response to Kresspahl's concerns, I would note that the New Grove is a far more reliable source for English speakers than Wikipedias in other languages, and note that musicological studies in other languages, such as Belotti 1995, use the spelling "Dieterich". MGG 1994 uses "Dieterich" with "Dietrich" given as an alternate spelling. Responding to Makemi, I don't think we need to worry about Grout, and the redirect will be sufficient to take care of the other reasons.
--Sesquialtera II 16:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"He offered his position in Lübeck to Handel and Mattheson but stipulated that the organist who ascended to it must marry his eldest daughter, Anna Margareta. Both Handel and Mattheson turned the offer down." So how did he get his daughter married off? Inquiring minds (and some fathers!) want to know! Mcswell (talk) 04:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know of any document in which Buxtehude signs himself "Diderik Hansen". These names are a construct of what the Danish form of his Christian name and patronymic would have been, had he actually used them. "Diderik" is in any case the modern, not the 17th-century, spelling; this name is no longer in use except in its meaning of "rapscallion". I think we should accept Kerala J. Snyder's reasoned and documented discussion, while also recognizing that modern conventions govern the choice and spelling of the names by which famous composers are known, i.e. we must also recognize that most people will continue to use the modern German "Dietrich", despite Snyder's arguments. Take the case of Buxtehude's older colleague, Matthias Weckmann: he usually spelt his surname Weckman, but the modern form of the surname with two n's is almost invariably used. Women in Germany were often referred to with feminized surnames, e.g. the women of Bach's family would be called Bachin, but no one would now call Anna Magdalena Bach "Bachin".
To return to musical matters, it is incorrect that no tablature manuscripts survive of Buxtehude's keyboard works. There are many such manuscript copies in German organ tablature in the Lowell Mason collection at Yale, and a few elsewhere. They contain many valuable works not transmitted in score by members of Bach's circle. None of them are autographs, however. Buxtehude would have written in both tablature and score, but tablature was the most common means of transmitting organ works in his lifetime, and tablature was also used for many of his cantatas in the Gustav Düben collection. Some of these are thought to be in Buxtehude's own hand. Tablature fell out of use at the beginning of the 18th century, but even Bach used tablature when he needed to compress the writing of some of the Orgelbüchlein chorale preludes, when he was short of space on a page.
Concerning Buxtehude's use of rhetorical devices in his organ works, it is in fact unknown whether he did this self-consciously, or whether it is a case of natural convergence between effective modes of musical and verbal expression. I disagree that the interspersions of stylus phantasticus in Buxtehude's preambula are especially rhetorical; it is in fact in more extended musical discourse that rhetorical features make their mark. In this respect the clearest examples are to be found in the chorale fantasia on "Nun freut euch". [-Anon]
I had intended to complete this article within a day or two of adding the blank sections, but then I got caught up in other areas of Wikipedia (I'm sure some people are saying "surprise, surprise" :) ). Anyways, I have commented out those sections without information, and hopefully will write them in the next few days. -Sesquialtera II 17:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the excellent BuxWV 104 excerpt, Trisdee! -Sesquialtera II 17:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone think its a little bit too.. yellow? Compared to [1], for instance. I could make a nicer version out of that image (its PD I think, given the date it was created). Jashiin 18:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry I had to replace the old structure draft with one of my own; my excuse is that noone ever did anything to it and I thought the scheme I employed for Johann Pachelbel will work nicely here as well. For now, here are the first drafts of the first sections; "Other keyboard works" will probably be split into several parts in future and I'll add several section on vocal works and some notated examples as in the Pachelbel article.
I've commented the bit about rhetoric out for now because, well, I confess I don't really understand what "rhetoric" is this about. If this concerns things like using a joyous gigue fugue for a joyous chorale stanza and a sad chromatic section for a sad verse (pardon the simplification), then by all means I'll write about that; if this is about something else (couldn't find anything in the Quintilian article or the rhetoric one), it'd be great if someone could shed some light on it. Jashiin 09:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the music example. However, it seems unnecessarily old-fashioned to use the alto clef for the left hand - you could also use the soprano clef for the right hand, as Bach would have done, and then it will be even more difficult to read.
The sentence "He was born with the name Diderik..." is too assertive. The fact is, we don't know. No baptismal record has been found. Diderik is not a spelling that would have been used in the 17th century. It would more likely have been Diderich.
About rhetoric in baroque music, this is a big subject full of Latin or Greek technical terms that graduate students sprinkle their texts with to show erudition. No, it is not about a jolly jig illustrating a jolly subject or about word painting, but a much more detailed drawing of analogies between musical composition or its performance and the art of speaking. In its simplest terms, it just expresses the evident relation between music and speech. However, in the renaissance and even more in the baroque period, several theorists drew quite detailed analogies between the devices of classical rhetoric and musical composition/melodic structure. The question is to what extent individual composers consciously used these devices or whether it is just that rhetorical features can be found in practically any melodic structure. The probablity is that many baroque composers would know quite a lot about rhetoric from their schooling (if they went to grammar school) and that analogies between music and rhetoric would be part of the intellectual climate in which they were trained. At a simple level, Francisco Correa de Arauxo calls certain of his tientos "discurso" in his "Facultad Organica" of 1629. However, it is difficult to find a real difference betwen these discursos and some of the other tientos for decorated solo voice in the collection. Later the French organists of the 17th century have their "Récits" and "Dialogues". And in elementary music teaching today, "phrases" and "answers" will be pointed out. However, German theorists might find the parts of a rhetorical argument in music: exordium (intro), narratio, propositio, confirmatio, confutatio, peroratio/conclusio, and devices of rhetorical delivery might also be found: gradatio (cresc.), exclamatio, parenthesis etc. This would then be related to baroque "Affektenlehre" (the correct exploitation of the emotions) and "Figurenlehre" (the choice of appropriate musical figures to express these emotions). Each of these subjects has a history that stretches back into the renaissance and forward to modern times; take Deryck Cooke's "The Language of Music", where he tries (quite successfully in my opinion) to expain the emotional meaning of standard melodic/harmonic sequences. Significant writers on the matter would be Matthesson (again!), J.A. Scheibe (yes, the cocky student who insulted Bach) and Forkel. Now, a long organ piece with solo voice(s) such as a chorale fantasia, full of phrases, repeat phrases, snatches of phrases, answering phrases, repetions in different registers, will lend itself to interpretation in terms of rhetoric. I imagine that I can see rhetorical devices in Buxtehude's "Nun freut euch" of the confirmatio/confutatio type. Does this really matter? No. We can't know whether Buxtehude thought, "I must put in a confutatio here", but he was evidently aiming at creating effective and dramatic musical discourse. That will inevitably draw on rhetorical devices, self-consciously or not. There is no reason why rhetoric has to be emphasized more in an article on Buxtehude than in articles on many other baroque composers. For some people the connection between rhetoric and some styles of baroque music is a valuable insight. For others it is pretentious platitude. Uttenthal, Salamanca87.49.96.71 03:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Modern concepts of the national state did not apply in Buxtehude's day. They were beginning to form, but it was a painful affair and some aristocrats got squeezed in the process. Native Danes basically consisted of two classes: the land-owning feudal aristocracy, perfidious to any modern concept of a national state and loyal only to themselves; and the enslaved peasantry, tied to the land and without education or skills. Trade and skilled crafts were carried out by German or Dutch immigrants. Many of these came from the dukedoms of Schleswig and Holstein, (low)-German-speaking buffer states in fief to the Danish monarch, but never fully integrated into the Danish kingdom. This led to continuing problems right up to the 20th century. Buxtehude's father and Buxtehude himself fit perfectly into the pattern of skilled craftsmen originating from Holstein and working in Denmark.
When Buxtehude returned to Elsinore in 1660, this was after the Swedes had annexed Scania (Skåne), where Hälsingborg is situated, after brutal wars through most of the 1650's. Then followed a period of "ethnic cleansing" to make Scania, part of Denmark since prehistoric times, properly Swedish. However, we do not know whether Buxtehude's move to Elsinore had anything to do with this. Perhaps he just moved to a better job in a more important town, where his father was already organist in the city church. In the same year, the Danish electoral monarch, Frederik III, organized an auto-coup d'état against the aristocracy, aided by the burghers of Copenhagen. In this way he established an absolute, hereditary monarchy in the style of Louis XIV, which was seen by many as an improvement on the conflicts caused by the medieval electoral monarchy (the elected monarch often had to arrange the assassination of the other aspirants to the throne, e.g. his brothers). The status of the peasants was not improved. All this is described by Robert Molesworth, British (Whig) ambassador to Denmark, in his book "An account of Denmark as it was in the year 1692", in which he calls Denmark "a nation of slaves".
St. Mary's monastery church in Elsinore, where Buxtehude became organist, was, and had been for a long time, the church of the German congregation in Elsinore. This made it of about equal importance with St. Olai, the city church, given that most traders and craftsmen were from the German-speaking dukedoms or elsewhere in Germany. The language used was low German, as can be read in the inscriptions on the pulpit and the many contemporary tombstones and epitaphs. So Buxtehude's everyday working language was low German, even in Denmark. However, he did learn a bit of Danish as well (probably when he attended the Latin school housed in St. Mary's monastery), and there are just one or two documents written in Danish by him. On moving to St. Mary's in Lübeck, Buxtehude would have felt no "culture shock" whatsoever; the same language, the same services, just a bigger, richer church with a bigger, better organ, in a bigger, richer city.
With his family origins in Holstein, Buxtehude was merely being factually correct when he is quoted as acknowledging Denmark as his country of origin (patria). This is true no matter whether he was born in Hälsingborg or Oldesloe (the latter being highly improbable). He might have appreciated his exotic childhood and youth in a remote nordic area, on the lines of "making the big time" despite his unfavorable start in life. The is no doubt that Buxtehude achieved a higher status and prosperity in the free Hanseatic city of Lübeck than he could ever have achieved in the battered and impoverished rump of a kingdom that Denmark had been reduced to in his own lifetime. Uttenthal, Salamanca.87.53.55.227 13:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The image showing Buxtehude comes from a painting now in the art gallery in Hamburg, but more conveniently for this discussion reproduced on the Reincken page. It shows Reincken seated at the harpsichord with several others people. As I wrote earlier today on the discussion page of the Reincken article, according to Ton Koopman ("Composer of the Week:Buxtehude" - Radio 3, 7.8.07) we know that the man shown in the image on this page and the man playing the viola da gamba are Buxtehude and Theile but we don't know which is which. Both men played the gamba. So there's a mystery! Hikitsurisan 21:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC) The German Wiki article on Buxtehude also reproduces the whole painting and mentions the uncertainty of which one is D.B. Hikitsurisan 21:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Unless I missed it in the article, the only instrument mentioned that Buxtehude played was the organ. If he had learned to play other instruments, I think that important enough to mention.
Given the lack of such info, I would wonder why he'd be painted playing an instrument he did not know how to play; and, as such, would cast my vote to the man with the sheet music in the painting as being Buxtehude.
Just a thought. 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 05:13, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
What do you say about this page: [[2]] There's an another image with text "Dieterich Buxtehude". I don't know if it is true. 82.197.3.152 13:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The same picture elsewhere: [[3]] 82.197.3.152 13:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
According to our article on Johann Theile (and most other sources I've found), the lutenist in the painting is less likely to be Buxtehude than the gentleman to the left of the painting, who appears with sheet music on his lap. In fact, both articles claim the lutenist represents their eponymous character. Could this be investigated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.163.5 (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
According to the biography Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician by Christoph Wolff, Buxtehude is actually the musician "leaning over a sheet of music showing a canon dedicated 'In hon: Dit: Buxtehude et Joh: Adam Reink: fratres" (p.65) and not the individual currently displayed, playing the viola da gamba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.160.58.83 (talk) 18:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a Start-class article; the TODO list rightly indicates the Life section is deficient (especially when considering that an allegedly comprehensive biography is listed as a reference). My full review is on the Comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 23:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The line in question was referenced to Schweitzer's Bach biography. While informative on Bach, the biography's assessment of pre-Bach composers is, well, not particularly valuable, to put it mildly - Schweitzer believed that Scheidt was far more important than Frescobaldi, that Italian music in general was inferior to German music because the latter was more complex, that Pachelbel's chorales were "sequences of fughettas", that double pedals are encountered for the first time in Scheidt's work (although Schlick had those some 100 years before Scheidt), etc. His book is, after all, some 100 years old. So I reworded the line to "one of the most important German composers" and referenced Snyder's Grove article. --Jashiin (talk) 17:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I can't find any occurence of "Buxtehude" in The Mahler companion. Does anyone have a reference to the statement in the introduction ? Otherwise I'll remove it. Vol de nuit (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Also by Mitzi Meyerson (will find the BuxWV numbers and include; her La Capricciosa seems quite good...) and Glen Wilson... Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that the "wrong" image of Buxtehude should not go the church - no relation - but deserves a paragraph of its own with the findings of the biographer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
There is a little example for a fugue theme. Who is the author? Frescobaldi? Froberger? or is it part of the prelude BuxWV 152? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.21.133.127 (talk) 15:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
The section on vocal music in this article is tiny - if you've ever heard any of his output then you'd know that the few lines that there are currenly don't do him justice. Membra Jesu Nostri is quite amazing. Hoping that any Buxtehude scholars who happen across my comments see fit to improve matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.220.238 (talk) 08:47, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Dieterich Buxtehude/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
==Composers Project Assessment of Dieterich Buxtehude: 2009-02-14==
This is an assessment of article Dieterich Buxtehude by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===
===Summary=== This is one of the more unusual composer bios I've read. Given the importance of the subject, I was expecting a somewhat more extensive biography. A two-paragraph biography that is weakly cited is not really acceptable; considering a reference is listed that claims a comprehensive bio, I find it completely unacceptable. The musicology, while admirable, is, in the amount given, more suitable for a different article (Music of D.B., or some such). This article should include more about the reception of his music, how is reputation developed, why he was so important, and what his reputation has been since his death. Article is Start-class. Magic♪piano 23:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 23:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 13:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
....to phrase this: "Buxtehude was exposed to the organ at a young age...."
so that it sounds a bit less as though he met jimmy savile...
198.147.19.2 (talk) 16:54, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Whoever added his death date and location, where did you get it? Britannica? MageAZ (talk) 09:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Dieterich Buxtehude. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:40, 6 December 2017 (UTC)