This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Seeing as Democratic Party and Republican Party have actually only a few links to them, unless anyone objects within the next few days, I want to make them redirects to Democratic Party (disambiguation), and Republican Party (disambiguation) respectively (or just move the disambig pages there). I've posted this message at talk pages for both the US Dems and Reps, please continue it at Talk:United States Democratic Party. Comments welcomed... Morwen 00:40, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)
Speaking of POV, thanks to Radicalsubversiv for getting rid of that paragraph of POV drivel that was posted anonymously on June 13th. That cracked me up, I wonder if the author could have possibly thought that (s)he was actually posting non-biased, appropriate info. I'm pretty new here, I suppose those of you who watch and maintain articles like this (and the various Republican articles) have to deal with partisan vandalism a lot, huh? Since I got a good laugh from what that user posted, I wanted to post it here to see if anyone else wanted to chuckle at it with me. - Eisnel 04:11, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Today its primary belief is in state socialism heavily tempered by state capitalist beliefs along with some anti-nationalist, anti-religious, and pro-environmental tendencies. They favor control of the government by two parties, that way they can have somebody to blame when things go wrong. It enjoys block votes from gays, teachers, African-Americans, immigrants, welfare recipients, members of mass media, NAACP members, environmentalists, abortion supporters, labor union leaders, and people who hate Republicans.
However, that user did seem notice something that seems to be missing: This article doesn't have any section that attempts to explain the various political stances taken by the Democratic Party. Rather, you have to dig through the "History" section to find that stuff. In the History section, the paragraph that starts with "The Democratic Leadership Council organized by..." makes an attempt to sum up some of the party's political stances, and isn't really about history. I think that paragraph could be moved out of History and used to start a new section describing some of the issues that the Democratic Party (as a whole) takes a stance on. It wouldn't have to go into depth about those, since it could tend to get biased, but rather it could provide a bunch of links to articles about those issues, allowing readers to springboard from here to articles about welfare, affirmative action, abortion, gay rights, etc.
Astonishing, really, that there is practically nothing about the ideological progression of the party. This whole article needs padding out.
As I have understood the issue after several years as a Political Science major, I believe the modern Democratic Party is generally considered not to be a direct descendant of the Democratic-Republican Party, as presented in this article. Instead, the modern Democratic Party is considered to have been founded after the Civil War. This is why the Republican Party is often referred to as G.O.P. - this stands for Grand Old Party. I'd love some other comments on this. --Xinoph 16:07, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Please see comments on Talk:United States Republican Party about party chairs and the term "leader." I'm not reverting it here because it's not totally inaccurate, but it needs clarification. -- Radicalsubversiv 03:05, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I am also deeply concerned, again as a Political Science major, that Democratic National Committee and Republican National Committee simply redirect to the pages for the Democratic and Republican parties. In the U.S., unlike in many countries, national political parties are not really this highly centralized - the National Committees are not really governing bodies, per se, but organizational bodies (see the talk page of the Republican Party for more on the leader/chairman issue). --Xinoph 16:06, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
IIRC correctly,
is out of date, DFL having finally dropped the FL in the last 10 years, probably last 5. I'll confirm this eventually & fix, if no one w/ a more active interest in MN does so. The history could still be reflected in this article, IMO, and has national significance, tho not yet reflected in the MN DFL article; i've addressed this on that talk. (DNPL should perhaps also be checked.) --Jerzy(t) 20:23, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
Hmm. I heard something, but it looks far-fetched that it's what i thot i heard! I may pursue a little further, but IMO the article is fine on that. [blush] --Jerzy(t) 22:46, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
As a native of the region I can assure you they are still referred to as the DFL and the Dem-NPL. --Alexwcovington 04:21, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think the donkey has been adopted in some form, notice the DNC logo on the webpage has a bucking donkey next to it... - Aaron Hill 05:26, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't really know where the line between "official" and "unofficial" lies in such a case, because, as discussion above reflects, there is no real central party organization that has the power to make a symbol "official." It seems the DNC has certainly adopted it. However, for example, in Indiana, the ballots still display the Republican eagle and Democratic rooster instead of the elephant and donkey. (Indiana might be one of the few states that still uses party symbols on ballots.) To that extent, anyway, the rooster seems to be the "official" symbol in Indiana. I wish there were someone who knew more about this. Acsenray 20:07, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
--
This claims the donkey symbol came into use as a result of the cartoon, whereas the reference at [1] claims it had been in use since the 1830s, and that Nast only built on it. Perhaps this stems from confusion about the Democratic-Republican party?
Also, one would assume an 1870 magazine publication is public domain by now, and the image available for this article. Whether to include it may depend on the resolution of the above. - toh
-- Removed this, "(Missourians are said to be stubborn; it is the "'Show me' State")". pamri 04:34, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I can understand using the anachronistic "Democratic-Republican" for the sake of convenience (even when "Republican" is technically the correct term) for the party founded by Jefferson. However, in an article that describes the history of the party, I believe it's essential to make the actual evolution of the terminology absolutely clear. In actual history, there was no "Democratic-Republican Party" until Jackson, and in an article giving the history of the development of the party founded by Jackson, I think we ought to be precise regarding the terminology. Acsenray 14:16, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, I'm one of those who prefer to extend the use of Dem-Rep to the Jeff Reps. I concede the point, however, that's it best to use the contemporary term when discussing the history, perhaps with a disclaimer noting that today the Jeff Reps are called by another name and not directly connected to the modern GOP. Khanartist 19:01, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I see you took my advice before I gave it :). I support the changes. Khanartist 19:04, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I might cross-post this to the Rep article, since it applies there as well. I'm fairly well-versed in American history, but I have to admit that some of the historically notables here had me stumped. Obviously, if we have no criteria for this, the list is wide open and we could conceivably fill pages with unknown Democratic mayors and state represenatives and governors. I'm just happy that Lyndon LaRouche hasn't been thrown in yet. - Anonymous
I suggest the following criteria for "other currently notable" Democrats:
1. They should have been nationally prominent at some point. This standard should be interpreted narrowly, to make inclusion on the list fairly exclusive.
2. They should still be active in politics - if not they should go to the historicaly notable list.
3. They should not be duplicated on any of the three other lists. The word "other" implies that this is a catchall for persons who don't belong on the other lists.
Comments? Schmeitgeist 14:53, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
Question... I just edited the Clinton P. Anderson Article, and I am about to fix the wiki link here on this page. However, does Anderson really belong in the former notable Democrats section? I'll let you guys decide this, because I am not a Democrat and I have no business deciding who Democrats think is notable in their history, but I am glad a New Mexican is on there. :) Thank you!
YourNickname 02:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
WHY was this moved? No discussion (That I can see; is there something going on in some Wikiproject somewhere?), no nothing, on a major and timely page. There is no reason to break the standard now. I'm bringing this up elsewhere if this isn't justified very soon. --Golbez 03:01, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
This statement is inaccurate, as it was the Republican Party which championed the balanced federal budget in the 1990s. This was part of the 1994 Contract With America.
I think it's worth noting that Republicans are much more likely to use the form "Democrat party" as opposed to "Democratic party," whatever the proper NPOV language for this might be. Acsenray 16:56, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That's seen as a term of abuse, though. It should, perhaps, be noted that Republicans say that, but not as though this is a proper alternative name for the party. john k 19:05, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That's my point. Originally, I had noted that the form "Democrat" is often seen as derogatory, but someone changed it. I thought, perhaps, because my wording was seen as NPOV. My point is that "Democrat" is more likely to be used when dissing the party Acsenray 21:51, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should we really include a link to a site which hasn't been updated in so long that it continues to claim that Rodney Alexander is a Democrat? john k 21:44, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding the reverts by Radical Subversive -- I'm not going to revert here, but I do want to point out that the naming convention applies to article titles. In this case, the proper links to "commonly known" names were all there. All I did was add more complete names for display purposes, e.g., "Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill," instead of just "Tip O'Neill." I don't think this detracts from understanding (especially since the link is still to "Tip O'Neill") and may, in fact, be slightly more informative. If the general preference is to keep the article with the names they way they are, then I accept that, but I argue that it's not a matter of violating the Wiki naming convention. Acsenray 14:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) Also, when there are two Adlai Stevensons in the list, it seems to make sense to me to specify "Adlai E. Stevenson I" for the vice president and "Adlai E. Stevenson II" for the presidential candidate. Acsenray 15:01, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"(today, this party is usually referred to as the "Democratic-Republican Party" for the sake of convenience; but such usage is anachronistic)."
Can one say that something is usually referred TODAY as something and then state that the name is anachronistic? I'd recommend changing it.
No, you're right.
Why was this page moved without any discussion? This seems like a clear issue where this should have been brought up on the talk page several days before any action was undertaken. What's the deal? john k 08:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest Democratic Party (United States), Republican Party (United States), Whig Party (United States), &c., except in cases where the country is included in the name of the party, like Socialist Party of America. john k 18:40, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Are there any further comments, or can this page be renamed to fit with the others? RadicalSubversiv E 03:24, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Uh, why was this page moved back? The consensus on the talk page seems to have been in favor of the Democratic Party (United States) form. john k 06:30, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
RadicalSubversiv E 09:02, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I suspect the new factions section may be an example of disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point about the factions section in the GOP article, but it probably ought to exist. However, much of the initial content was wildly inaccurate. Two of the "factions" name are not, in fact, factions in any meaningful sense. "New England liberals" do not have an agenda or a leadership that is distinct from other elements of the party, and most of the people mentioned would not even cop to the term. "Moveon.org" is not even officially a Democratic; it is a unique kind of player in American politics, but it is just one organization, without any kind of presence in Congress or in party organizations, so I can't fathom calling it a faction. "Neo-conservatives" is controversial even when applied to Republicans, but it's downright inaccurate when applied to most Democrats (many neo-conservatives were originally Democrats allied with Scoop Jackson, but that's another story). You might be able to get away with calling Joe Lieberman a foreign policy neocon, but he's not on domestic policy, and I can't think of a single other example. RadicalSubversiv E 23:48, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The factions section is difficult, I agree with your changes. It isn't disruptive though to point out the different groups, it's just there are so many and they are very fluid. Same problem arises on the Republicans. I think New England liberals is definitely a group, in fact liberals generally are as well. Plus DNC leadership, based around McAuliffe and his staff. Plus the feminists and the ambition faction (the biggest) and the gratitude faction (the smallest)... Plus I think people from rural areas tend to have the same interests. There seem to be many factions unlisted. Moveon I think is clearly Democratic, clearly a faction operating within the party as faction is defined. Does it support Republicans? Maybe Rudy. Maybe not. I thought Lieberman qualified as a neo-con according to its proper definition also. I won't change your change except for Moveon which I think qualifies. Could you think about it and see if it qualifies. I think it might. Salazar 05:00, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
With the number of Progressive groups trying to make a difference in the Democratic Party all around the country, I believe it is time to put in a Progressive faction on the list. Any suggestions on how to do this? Chadlupkes 23:10, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I dislike the current state of the factions section -- it is the opinion of amateurs and not based on anything reliable. There is a recent study [5] that broke the parties into factions, commissioned by the Washington Post, Harvard University, and the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. This would be a good foundation for describing "factions". AdamRetchless 13:55, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Here, I'll make it easy for you. You click this link: [6]. Then you scroll down to where it says, "Click here to read Strong At Home, Respected in the World -- The Democratic Platform for America." Click on it. You will see the Democratic Party's complete platform. Every issue I list is discussed in the platform in nauseating detail. There's my source.
I downloaded the platform. I read it. There is no such list in the platform. Cite a specific source to each issue and I'll accept it. Otherwise, I won't. You are required to cite sources not point to documents in a very general way and assert that supports your claims. You need to cite specifically where it lists the "signature issues" you refer to. It doesn't so I think you'll find this difficult.
You made it up most probably, which is "original research" of the kind JK Rowling produces.
Ollieplatt 23:12, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean that I "made it up?" If its mentioned in the freaking official platform of the party, a platform, I might add, that is only updated every four years, then it is an issue that said party intends to focus on. Use the higher functions of your brain, for God's sake! And I don't really need your permission to put the list up, do I? I'll just keep putting it back up every time you take it down.
Signature issues is a cliche. The list that follows it is partisan POV. The anonymous user is repeatedly reinserting with no source. He points to the DNC platform which mentions no such thing. Where in the platform does the list appear?
Ollieplatt 00:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The fact that there is no physical list is no reason that a thinking human could not infer that those are, in fact, the issues that the party focuses most on. The fact is that the party platform goes into incredible details about each of those issues and they campaign on them regularly. They're signature issues, and you seem to be the only one who disagrees with that. --12.217.127.27
There is a childish revert war being played out. I suggest the list stay providing the page numbers indicating support for these concepts be provided. I question whether it is a useful or accurate summation of their views, which is why referring to the platform itself solves that. Radical says that he has summarized the platform, I don't think that's right. I am hopeful there can be a solution. Salazar 04:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is one mention of the word union. It is a reference to Iraq. Accordingly, it is removed. Salazar 05:03, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There are four references to civil rights. It stays. Salazar 05:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is no reference progressive taxes. In fact only one reference to tax at all. Salazar 05:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Gun control. I was surprised about this but here's the direct quote:
"We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do."
So I've put a more accurate summary of the Democrats position which is pro-gun but anti assault weapon. Salazar 05:16, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Abortion should be safe, legal and rare." Reproductive rights stays. Salazar 05:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The list is promotional in nature and should be referenced, this is difficult because it's a pdf but I think it is important to do. Can you wait and see how it turns out before reverting. Each one can be considered separately. And probably should be.
They are all complicated. However, "gun control" is not right really when the first word in the DNC platform is their support for the folks to have guns under a constitutional amendment which to my mind says no such thing. I don't think that means gun control. That's just my POV though. I would rather reflect the platform as an irrefutable source. Salazar 05:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this issue needs to be worked out in detail. All the better then for individual edits not to be made at this time, but discussed here until it's resolved. Khanartist 05:32, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)
Radicalsubversive, yes discuss the issues.
Gun Control - Democrats actually support the right-wing interpretation of the 2nd amendment. "Right to bear arms". I was surprised. Am I wrong?
Progressive taxes - Middle class tax cuts. There's a difference. One is spin, the other from the platform.
Labor unions - Rhobite was right about that. I didn't search it properly.
I haven't finished going through the list but am happy to wait while the above are resolved. Salazar 05:41, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've giving up on dealing with this for the moment, but Salazar's latest changes are totally unacceptable. First off, as we've been through about 80 times, the Democrats were divided over slavery at the time of the Civil War -- the dividing line between the two parties was the expansion of slavery into new territory. Second, the paragraph about political principles has been muddled to disbelief. The issue here isn't what all Democrats support (hint: almost nothing, including the platform), the issue is what policies the majority of the party has a clear record on. RadicalSubversiv E 06:23, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The word "minimal" is inapropriate. Democrats generally support the use of social welfare but there is no kind of consensus on how much and what kind. Bill Clinton signed the welfare reform bill and favored workfare, that is true. But every single candidate for the presidential nomination last year came out in favor of expanding welfare. Howard Dean and John Kerry talked about raising the minimum wage and creating a system that would give all those uninsured the same health coverage as members of Congress. Many Democrats, with Dennis Kucinich leading the charge, said that they did not go far enough, and proposed creating a living wage and instituting a Canadian-style system of universal health care. Even Joe Lieberman declared that some kind of universal health coverage should be sought. So, you see, the minimalist faction is but one sliver of a party that overwhelmingly supports welfare in some quantity or other. --12.217.127.27
The point of not including the mob-affiliated thing isn't so much that it's a slur on labor unions - which it is, since it suggests that a significant enough proportion of labor unions are mob-affiliated as to warrant the qualification (as far as I am aware, no national unions have demonstrable ties to organized crimes - obviously there are so many locals across the country that there are going to be some). The point is more that this distinction is completely unimportant. Democrats support labor unions as an idea, and they support the right to organize. At least, they do as a general rule, and their platform details that support. Republicans are generally much more unfriendly to labor rights (as the current NLRB, for instance, has shown). Whether or not a few mob-affiliated construction unions in New York have ties to the Republicans is irrelevant to the basic question. In any event, that's more a case of unions supporting republicans than it is of republicans supporting unions. john k 22:05, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is absurd. Certainly organized crime penetrates certain unions (although, again, no internationals that I am aware of are at this point associated with organized crime - not even the Teamsters). But this is irrelevant. The reason that Democrats have opposed corrupt labor unions is because they're corrupt, not because they're labor unions. Democrats and Republicans both oppose organized crime. This is irrelevant to the question of labor unions, especially considering that the influence of organized crime on labor unions is almost certainly at an all time low. Democrats support labor unions in that they support unionization rights; and they support labor unions in that the AFL-CIO and other labor unions are a major part of the Democratic coalition. That a small number of locals have mob ties, and that Democrats have often attacked mob-run labor unions, is not of such tremendous importance as to require that the statement that democrats support labor unions needs to be qualified. john k 07:22, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone change the filename of that thing... it's in a directory called /ad/, so (most) Firefox Adblock users can't see a thing.-Grick 06:13, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
Is the Democratic party any more Liberal (in the international sense) than the Republican party? Or is it important to mention this anyway, even if both could be reasonably described as liberal according to that definition?--Pharos 03:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Really, this whole business of adding ideological labels to the major American political parties is highly dubious. The parties are closer to big-tent coalitions than most of their international peers. While the Republican Party has become more uniformly conservative in recent decades (though even there we see distinctions between neocons, paleocons, libertarians, as well as various regional distinctions), the Democratic Party has become even more the party of "everyone who's not a Republican". By European standards, the party includes people who would generally be described as social democrats, Greens, liberals, democratic socialists, among other things. The only reasonably accurate and NPOV way I can think to describe that it is to provide an ideological range of left-wing to centrist. (Note that such a label would not be an accurate description of the Republican Party, in which true centrists are essentially anomalies.) RadicalSubversiv E 18:48, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I generally meant that the Democratic Party could be reasonably described by Liberalism in the United States, which has a somewhat different meaning than Liberalism generally (not everyone working on this page seems to realize this). Of course US liberalism, is in some ways about as broad as social democracy, green tendencies, plain-vanilla liberalism etc.--Pharos 07:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages; besides, it's just a talk page]])
I will withhold my own commentary for now and see what happens. See also Talk:Republican Party (United States)#Fascism project.
This is ridiculous. Of course the answer is no. john k 23:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
How preposterous. The Democratic party can be described as many things. Ideological, overzealous, stubborn as a mule, passionate to the extreme, but not facist by any stretch of the imagination. The obvious answer here is NO!!Tetragrammaton 23:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm reverting Old Right's inclusion of "tempering capitalism with state socialism" and just "tempering capitalism with" because it's unnecessarily pov. By any stretch of the imagination, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats support a totally capitalist society. Things would be very different if they did. However, saying that the Dems feel the need to temper capitalism with something, especially socialism, is needlessly pov - we say exactly what they support directly after. I don't think we need to slap labels on it, especially if those labels don't really fit. No offense, Old Right. TIMBO (T A L K) 04:10, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)