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Please discuss all edits, and DO NOT erase comments from the talk pages. I have reinstated my comments to the talk page. I have edited some entries to provide context to POV assertions. We can also remove the POV assertions if you wish. Or we can, as I have done, leave them in and present opinions as being opinions, rather than facts. We mst clearly distinguish between opinions and facts. Muggle1982 21:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)Muggle1982Muggle1982 21:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that Varna (caste) be a separate entry, since it refers to only one aspect of caste, that of vedic caste. The vedic system itself is highly formalised. The actually existing caste system is far more complex, and this complexity may have existed long before the form described in the texts, which may merely be a convention. To draw a parallel, the languages existing in vedic India were formalised into Sanskrit, but this language may not actually have been spoken, unlike the many Prakrits which evolved into the modern languages of the Indian subcontinent.Vinodm 13:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a lot of selective quoting and similar that makes the article feel very POVish. It may be a good idea to try to fix that. --Improv 00:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey -- I've just finished editing the article to straighten out the garbled bits and make things a little less confusing to readers who aren't used to Indian English. I wonder whether anyone could give it the once-over and remove the cleanup tag? I've tried my best to help it sound neutral, and I'd remove the tag myself, but just a little confirmation here, please? Thanks. ----219.91.152.10 18:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I just copy edited a bunch of stuff in this article but it is still very confusing and awkwardly written. Much work still to be done! The so-called "theory" of Indo-Aryan "invasion" of India is completely unsourced; even with a source, it would be better called a hypothesis. funkendub 23:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I have made several edits. They consist of the following:
1. Removing weakly arguable material and conjecture
2. Pruning external links to remove those that are definitely biased sources (of which there were many!)
3. Re-arranging sections to make it more organised
I have left in the tags because I think this article still needs a lot of improvement from the standpoint of neutrality and unbiased scholarship.
Many egregious social evils have not even been touched up, for instance financial corruption of brahmins, atrocities committed by landowning castes, and the lynching of couples who dare to break the endogamy rule.
Right now, except for the section on untouchables, most of the article seems to consist of interpretations of Hindu scripture with very little treatment of the ground realities of casteism in India. This needs some serious attention.
Splitpeasoup 08:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Splitpeasoup:
Can you mention what parts of the article are taken from "Hindu scriptures"? --ISKapoor 23:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The article has been mangled by someone.
The term "caste" should be first clearly defined and then some real examples of castes should be given.
The article on "caste system" should describe the complete system, not just one part of it.
The dalit castes are about 16% of the population. The castes to which other 84% of the Indians belong, also deserve to discussed. Should an article on USA economy focus exclusively on discrimination encountered by the Blacks and Hispanics (25% of the population)? Should a discussion of the Catholic church history focus on the inquisitions?
The article should discuss facts and minimize political perspectives.
There is a large body of literature on individual castes as well as on the caste system, most of it by western scholars. Some of the most valauable books were written by british administrators.
I think this article should focus on facts and should not be used for presenting political or activist points of views. There are several articles that already do that at Wikipedia.
--ISKapoor 23:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The article as it stands has a severe lack of balance in its treatment of the topic.
The most relevant aspects of casteism have been glossed over or omitted. Major effects of casteism have been: atrocities against dalits, implicit and explicit suppression of intercaste marriages, appropriation of unwarranted influence by brahmins and landowning castes, caste wars, and perpetuation of poverty, illiteracy, and low standard of living among low castes.
The article as it stands today plays down or does not even mention these crucial issues.
Before this article can be considered neutral and balanced, it will have to address the above issues with the seriousness they deserve.
As of now, most of the article looks like it was written by a proponent or apologist of the caste system.
Splitpeasoup 02:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
If anti-brahminism is racism, which by default should make pro-brahminism racism too. Should we clean up all pro-brahmin content in Wiki? Let's keep it simple. Caste system is racism. This article should focus more on the negative effect of caste system on the society in general - C9
First of all, the caste system should be presented as it is. Any views judging it should be presented as views.
I respect the views of Splitpeasoup, in that all aspects of the caste system should be considered on Wikipedia. I hope that does not mean that a politcal or judgemental perspective should take priority over simple statement of facts.
There have been some communities that have been villified. The Jews have been portrayed as seeking a pound of flesh. It is true that Jews did lend money and charge interest. That does not justify portraying Jews as evil. Anti-semitism is racism. So is anti-Brahmanism.
It makes one extremely uncomfortable to see the view that some communites ought to be villified. Splitpeasoup writes:
or instance financial corruption of brahmins
atrocities committed by landowning castes
You are judging about 50,000,000 Brahmins and 200,000,000 members of the landowning castes, based on a few press reports.
Some brahmins are perhaps evil. Some members of the landowning castes have committed atrocities. Some whites in USA belong to white supremacist gangs who have killed blacks and Jews. Some blacks are drug-dealers. But to generalize it and hold the whole community responsible is inappropriate.
Most of the article does not come from Hindu scriptures. I know Hindu scriptures . Most castes find no mention in Hindu scriptures. The discussion on varnas is there in some of the Hindu texts. I believe that most of the discussion belongs to the article on varnas, and not here.
--ISKapoor 23:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
i have added the introduction. I have approached the whole idea in an academic way both highlighting the postives and the negatives. There is a need to cleapup this article by deleting a lot of unwanted pieces. SV 01:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this page extremely confusing to read as well. It took a while to touch up just the intro and first two sections. However, this is not a topic I am greatly knowledgable in and was fixing it up from a copyediting standpoint only. So, it would be great if someone more knowledgable on this topic could skim through and fact check my updates. Drcwright 22:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
If no one objects, I am in favor of changing the tag from copyedit to NPOV and fact check. From a grammar POV, the article is now fine and I don't think that the style can be improved w/o the aid of someone knowledgable on this subject (or willing to check research), as the meaning in many areas is confusing. Any comments or objections? A. Kohler 18:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't "Hindu caste system" title the article more aptly? I don't think people of other religions living in India were influenced by the Hindu caste divisions. Therefore terming the article as Indian caste system would be incorrect. Also, other religions have their own castes and sub castes, which are not detailed in the article. I'd like to hear other wikipedians' opinions. -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu_Joseph |TALK 06:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I think caste systems of other religions should be included in the article. It's quite a social phenomenon, and is found in India across all religions to some extent (see for example, this article). deeptrivia (talk) 06:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is for scientific thinking and present President is from science stream. He supports caste based religion which is violation of Constitution of India from the Head of the Constitution. vkvora 05:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Before making any proposed changes, please discuss it here. I feel it is important to include the criticism of the Indian caste system in the main article to give a balanced view siddharth 10:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
What about these
Some observers feel that the caste system must be viewed as a system of exploitation of poor low-ranking groups by more prosperous high-ranking groups. In many parts of India, land is largely held by dominant castes high-ranking owners of property that economically exploit low-ranking landless laborers and poor artisans, all the while degrading them with ritual emphases on their so-called god-given inferior status. Ref: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/intoc.html chapter 5
In the early 1990s, blatant subjugation of low-caste laborers in the northern state of Bihar and in eastern Uttar Pradesh was the subject of many news reports. In this region, scores of Dalits who have attempted to unite to protest low wages have been the victims of lynchings and mass killings by high-caste landowners and their hired assassins.
In 1991 the news magazine India Today reported that in an ostensibly prosperous village about 160 kilometers southeast of Delhi, when it became known that a rural Dalit laborer dared to have a love affair with the daughter of a high-caste landlord, the lovers and their Dalit go-between were tortured, publicly hanged, and burnt by agents of the girl's family in the presence of some 500 villagers.
A similar incident occurred in 1994, when a Dalit musician who had secretly married a woman of the Kurmi cultivating caste was beaten to death by outraged Kurmis, possibly instigated by the young woman's family. The terrified bride was stripped and branded as punishment for her transgression. Dalit women also have been the victims of gang rapes by the police. Many other atrocities, as well as urban riots resulting in the deaths of Dalits, have occurred in recent years. Such extreme injustices are infrequent enough to be reported in outraged articles in the Indian press, while much more common daily discrimination and exploitation are considered virtually routine.
Karma underpins the caste system, and the caste system traditionally determines the position and role of every member of Hindu society. Caste determines an individual's place in society, the work he or she may carry out, and who he or she may marry and meet. Hindus believe that the karma of a previous life determines which caste an individual is (re)born into. In Hinduism all men are born unequal: caste is pre-determined and unchangeable.
Ref: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/cherry_16_4.html
The Hindu belief in karmavada or the so-called law of karma. According to this doctrine, every human being gets the fruits of his actions either in the present or in some future life. Whatever a human being is in his present life is the result of his own actions in the past life or lives. This, again, is a totally unverified and unverifiable doctrine based on the assumption of the "cycle of birth and death". It is only a convenient tool for explaining away the perceived inequality in human society. [...] In Hinduism the so-called law of karma merely serves the purpose of legitimizing the unjust varna-vyavastha by making the Shudras and the "untouchables" meekly accept their degrading position as a "result of their own deeds" in imaginary past lives, and by assuring them "better" birth in "next life" if they faithfully perform their varna-dharma in their present lives. In this way, this doctrine prevents them from revolting against this man-made undemocratic system, which has nothing to do with alleged past and future lives.
Please see [1], anyways that book is the kind of book Dalitstani's and DMK people read, not educated people. Please refrain from throwing out the trash on wiki.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Please note that this is not trash and is very much true. I do think somehow what ramendranath is saying is true and logical, even though I am not a hindu by birth. And ofcourse terming trash as truth is easy. Lets not try to act as an escapist. --59.94.242.219 06:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ajaypal2k (talk • contribs) .
They thought everything was predetermined by fate that was again decided by their past Karma, ie. their doings in the previous births. So they could not blame anyone else but their own fate for being born in a lower caste (or Varna) and for their wretched life. This kind of outlook deeply ingrained in their psyche kept them mentally bound or chained. Periyar was determined to free the masses from this mental bond, and from all the practices and observances that were cruel and inhuman, divisive and discriminatory, wasteful and vain, barbaric and shameful. Being ignorant and superstitious, people were wasting their time, energy and wealth to satisfy the whims and fancies of variety of gods and goblins, and to propitiate devils and deities of dubious distinctions. They thought more of making life in the 'other' world wonderful than of making life in this world healthy, useful, meaningful and beautiful.
And also this
http://punjabdalitsolidarity.blogspot.com/2006/01/bant-singh-dalit-defiant-decapitated.html http://www.tehelka.com/story_main16.asp?filename=Cr020406do_bigha.asp
and many more.
The first diff is a blog. Even I can write a blog lol. The second shows one incident of a dalit being raped, most probably because of selfish Jat landlords (who most people consider Shudras) and then some overzealous journalist making his own conclusions on Hinduism. Its not even caste-based (As higher caste people would call them both shudras), its almost just a class struggle. Bakaman Bakatalk 14:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear Baka, the first ref for anti hindu stance of DMK is a news report of views expressed by some leader opposing DMK and not a neutral analysis Ref: http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/02/10/stories/2004021007080400.htm. Is it possible to get better reference for this claim Indian_caste_system#_ref-15. The second refrence from rediff news is not plight of brahmins in tamil nadu but in general of all the poor in brahmins. I suggest this can be moved to reservations in india to maybe criticise current state of reservations in India. I dont think it belongs here. Ajaypal2k 19:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Everything here seems to be brahmin mischief,how can anyone call periyar an anti-hindu,he was an atheist,how can we call an atheist an anti-hindu,or anti-muslim or anti-christian.It would be the greatest ignorance to call DMK anti-hindu, if it is anti hindu why the people in tamilnadu have voted them for power,let the obc's consist of 50percent or even 10 percent but aren't they hindus,is the article meaning that brahmin's are alone hindus,but it seems brahmin consist of even less than one percent of total indian population though they contend that they are of 4 percent of the total population.DMK is fighting for equality but the writer of this part seems to be totally unaware of this.If brahmins are the only hindus then how can india be a country with hinduism as major religion.I think brahmin's have a lot of influence and money to settle in america and so they have left the poverty stricken tamilnadu from where they have amassed all these money.I can bet if the brahmins can regale us with any of the atrocity or mass killings committed on them by the DMK cadres.
Varnas are summarized in 3 different places in this article. These bits should be merged. Ben Finn 12:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The census figures state they are from 1891. Is this supposed to be 1981? If not, are more recent data available? (65.26.217.188 05:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
Well, the Indian Constitution legally prohibits Caste as a relevant social category. So there have been no questions upon caste included in the decennial census since 1951. (An exception is the listing of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, which is done even today as I think, categories that were taken over by the Indian Government after Independence from the British for empowerment reasons) I think the most complete data on caste (which is mostly used today for writing on the quantitative aspect of the phenomenon) was collected during the 1931-census. Still, the criteria for classifying caste have changed significantly over time, so that for the professional categories in the table given in the article it might well be that in 1891 the last accessible data on the subject were collected. -- Apfelbaum82 23:47 (CET), 17 July 2006
Is there any particular reason to compare the Indian reservation to the US affirmatice action particularly? Affirmative action is not unique to the US or India and I suspect most non-Americans don't know much, if anything about the US system. It seems to me that for balance and neutrality, we should rework the sentence to something like this:
We could probably include the comparison to the US, but we need to work it in such a way that it flows as just one of a number comparisons that can be made. I couldn't think of a way to do it so I didn't bother (also why I didn't change it myself). Ideally, we should also include comparisons with other affirmative action systems but if you don't know enough about the others, that's fine. Nil Einne 07:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I know the article discounts the Aryan invasion theory. However, I thought it was widely acknowledged that different casts had different genetic origins - ie that there was an Aryan invasion.
A study of the Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations published [2] seems to support this:
Should the Aryan invasion theory be reintroduced (or at least not so heavily discounted)? Should the genetic origin part be introduced or at least mentioned in the article?Osli73 07:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Bakaman%% 23:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone added a massive amount of extremely poorly written/edited information about the Nepalese caste system to this article. I moved this section to the article on the Nepalese caste system. Both the article on Nepalese castes and this one are confusing, redundant, poorly organized, and poorly written. They need to be edited by someone who knows the material better than I do. These articles need a lot of help. dsingsen 21:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone had inserted a long text:
(Uttarkand 74/11-15)
etc.
There are two problems:
--ISKapoor 23:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I happened to stumble on to this and I have several problems in the way in which this topic is presented and would rate it a low 3 on 10.
1. 'Caste' is a term understood by the Portuguese and other Europeans of the Indian scoial structure, then and interpreted to mean something based on an understanding which is not correct. There's no concept called 'caste' in any of the Indian languages for instance. The word 'jati' from which the concept of caste was CREATED, speaks of stock and lineage of a certain class/group of people which could be based on any number of numerous factors right from place of origin prior to migration, specific beleief system, specific customs, specific traditions, specific occupations, specific titles, specific responsibilities and the like. Basically any identifier which a group of people use to differentiate themselves for whatsoever reason, from the rest of the masses. The identifiers are self-created rather than imposed externally by others and the jati names could either be internal self-identifiers or external identifiers (just as the word Hindu is an external identifier and not an Indian word). If all this is clearly understood, then one would understand that 'jati' is not a discriminator but a differentiator to preserve one's group's identity components. 500 years of exposure to India and the West have still not understood this in 2006.
2. While the above explains 'jati', caste is not 'varna' either. The 4 varnas were divisions in society created, so that each group understood its role and carried it out effeciently. Much like having the executive, judicial,military,commerical, aspects of government to make society tick. The Brahmins thus were in charge of all aspects related to learning, teaching, science, medicine, consultancy, music, arts, etc. The Kshatriyas were in charge of security, protection, the army, civil adminstration, etc. The Vaishyas were in charge of all production related activities including commerce. The Sudras were in charge of all service related aspects including consruction and labor. The Brahmins typically constitute 4-7% of the population in India and these percentages are fairly uniform across all parts of India. The Kshatriyas and Vaisyas constitute roughly 15%- 20% each and the balance is Sudras.
If one were to carefully observe, each of the 4 parts of the pie is interdependent on each other for the society to PERFORM as a whole. Not only is it inter-dependent but the power balance is carefully weighted by the proportion of each varna in the pie. Thus no single varna can dominate society. While this explains the macro-concept of the varnas, at the micro-level, the individual level, a person carries out his DHARMA and the duties expected of him depending on his life stage to the society, the family and himself.
The last of the life-stages involve renunciation, where a person/couple cut off all ties with their kith and kin and their worldly possessions and work towards the sole pursuit of 'discovering' the path to God. At this life stage when one snaps all worldly conections and is free from duties and obligations, a person comes out of the varna and is either a sadhu/saint/rishi/etc. These people are 'casteless'. Thus it is seen that varna/caste is not rigid and it does not bind a person from 'birth to death'.
3. 'Untouchability' is a very much mauled topic, least understood because of the various spins that have been provided by various political and religious groups primarily drawing energy from the West. To begin with, untouchability started as a concept to ensure that proper hygiene was maintained and the arrest of spread of disease was carried out. That is the prime driver towards untouchability. Disease has always been a concern area in large society such as India in the ancient past a it is today. This hygiene involved how people maintained themselves in terms of personal hygiene as well as how people involved themselves in professions that exposed them to various levels of hygiene.
When one talks of untouchability one needs to talk of the 'concept of untouchability' in the Indian context. In India a person who is considered untouchable is considered 'achoot'. This simply means 'do not touch'. Thus a person could be considered 'not to be touched' irrespective of varna/caste. A menstruating woman, a person who has touched a dead body or whose immediate family has had a death, a person who has performed a child birth or come in contact with blood, a person who has had his haircut done, a person who has not had his bath, are people who can be considered 'not to be touched', even within a single family unit, within a jati group. Since the person is 'not to be touched' till that person takes a bath or is considered pure again, does not make the person 'untouchable' right? The word 'not to be touched' and 'untouchable' have different connotations and it is this spin through mis-representation that has been provided by the West over centuries that it is now ingrained.
Having said that, there are jatis/people/individuals who are in a perpetual state of 'not to be touched mode' because of their attitude, or because of what they do. That is how entire lumps of people got classified as 'untouchables'. Before the advent of the modern era, most of the West including royalty, were not given to taking daily baths. They would have all been classified as impure and 'not to be touched'.
Given what I have said now, kindly re-examine your own understanding of 'untouchability' as you earlier knoew and undersood in the Indian context. Remember that as you could consider your wife as 'not to be touched' while menstruating, she could consider you 'not to be touched' if you didn't have your daily bath for instance.
Having said this, 'untouchability' is banned in modern India and even advocating it is a criminal offense. Nearly 35% of India lives in urban centres and nobody really gives a fig about all this. What does exist, exists in the rural hinterland as an evolution/corruption of what has already been said while explaining the concept of 'do-not-touch'!
I'm not inclined to waste my time carrying out edits. If what I have said finds value, then the necesary changes in meaning, message and perspective have to be reflected in the main article, which any of you may carry out. Else the West is doomed to carry on with its own twisted understanding of all this for a few more hundred years. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.22.150.211 (talk • contribs)
I got this quote from the page or Parsis: 'Even so, at some point (perhaps not long after their arrival in India), the Zoroastrians determined that the social stratification that they had brought with them was unsustainable in the small community and they did away with all but the athornan hereditary priesthood. The remaining classes - the ratheshtaran (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshan (farmers and traders), hutokshan (artisans and laborers) - were folded into an all-comprehensive class to this day known as the behdini ("followers of daena", for which "good religion" is one translation).' This corresponds closely with the system among Hindus. Does it mean that it was the Aryans who started it? It is well-known that Parsis are only another branch of Aryans and the RigVeda and Avesta have close similarities. Another question would be: What was the situation in India prior to the coming of Aryans? Is anybody interested to join the discussion? Aupmanyav 06:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
"For instance, Gandhi, a Vaishya, was not against the caste system" any quotes or citations on this?.
Why are my constructive npov edits being reverted? --Krsont 22:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Consrtuctive? You state AIT/AMT as if it is a fact (Its not). They are both racist theories which are used to devalue Hindu culture. By using AMT, you could make the assumption that the Ramayan never happened in India, because its too early for Sanskrit to take hold. The theory was racist in its beginning and has been changing forms ever since people questioned its validity.Bakaman%% 23:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The name of things like corn, wheat etc. are not even related in IE languages.Bakaman%% 23:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)