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The article is extremely biased in favor of the bill. e.g. "The opposition claims that such laws have the opposite effect, but use bad data to argue their point." and "Opposition claims that spay/neuter at 4 months creates unwanted dog aggression and has other undesirable side-effects, such as osteosarcoma, are based on studies that have been invalidated for faulty scientific method." Also, in general, the tone is very biased. Needs a NPOV pass. Kjl 20:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The claimed $250 million annual cost of California animal shelters has been repeated by supporters of the bill many times, but this figure is not based on the actual fiscal data nor on any sound estimating method. The estimate was made by taking the annual costs for just one of California's 61 jurisdictions, and dividing this cost by the number of animals impounded there to derive a cost per animal. This was then multiplied by the total number of animals impounded throughout the entire state, which also had to be estimated by extrapolation. It also represents an unsound extrapolation from a high cost urban region to the entire state which has lower costs on average. All in all, this represents an excessively large extrapolation and is an unscientific methodology for making the cost estimate for the entire state. The evidence that the figure was derived this way is here http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/Members/A40/CA-HealthyPetAct/CAStatsSummaryCost.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sardog1 (talk • contribs) 08:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned about the fact that most of the references on this article are located within a few sites (Save Our Dogs and NAIA Online). Can someone try to diversify the references a bit? Zetawoof(ζ) 23:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I made a few edits to the references to address this in part, and will keep looking for alternate sources.
As far as I know, these are the places where these references are publicly available in a reasonably accessible form. Some of them can also be found in the Bill Analysis documents written by the Assembly and Senate policy committees: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1634_cfa_20070423_093742_asm_comm.html http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1634_cfa_20070705_122742_sen_comm.html but these reports are unhelpful for this purpose. For example, "The United States Police Canine Association, Inc." is listed as an opponent of the bill in the Senate Bill Analysis document. However, that fact is largely inaccessible as it is one line buried in a document that is 29 pages long. The reference instead to this organization's actual opposition is more clear, and gives the reader the opportunity to learn why this organization opposes the bill.
North American Police Work Dog Association lists their opposition on their own website http://board.napwda.com/viewtopic.php?p=395&sid=653111dc446f646101cfdd8ce76389b3 but it does not contain as much information as the letter on the referenced website.
Western States Police Canine Association did put their opposition letter on their website http://wspca.tripod.com/main/AB1634.pdf but it is the April 1 version of their letter rather than the more up to date June 28 version on the Save Our Dogs website.
There are other copies of these letters here http://ab1634.com/Link_Letters.htm but they are again not the most recent versions of these organizations' letters.
This bill was amended seven times, so some organizations updated their letters to reflect amendments.
The reason why most of these are on the Save Our Dogs and NAIA websites is because these groups have been leaders in the opposition to this bill, and leadership includes bringing together information in order for the public to see it. It would be nice if all of these organizations put their letters on their own websites, but that is often not the case. [FYI, one is hard pressed to find supporters' letters on the Internet; and there have been questions raised whether some listed supporters really do support the bill.] Most organizations saw their duty as only to send their letter to legislators, not put their letter on a public website.
I have not seen this information in news media reports. Why the news media reporting on this bill has been so shallow is a whole other topic. Sardog1 04:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The International Association of Assistance Dog Partners letter is on their website, http://www.iaadp.org/calif2007.html but this is an April 7 version of their letter rather than the June 2 version on the referenced website. Again, it is more relevant to reference the more recent version.
I found a few more references on other websites so made some changes. Better? Sardog1 05:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Petlover1634
I can take an afternoon and do a larger neutral description of this bill, with references that are not directing readers to propaganda sites (either pro or anti); it was my hope that subsequent edits would stick to the facts of the bill and stay neutral but that has not been the case. I would rather not have to take the time to do a larger neutral description, but if no one else is able to expand this in a neutral way without referencing propaganda sites, I can take the time to do it correctly, probably in mid to late Nov.
It is correct that for standard factual articles, changes should be discussed and agreed to in this area, but use of this site as a propoganda arm isn't appropriate and changes to that type of addition don't require much discussion. Thanks. -- Petlover1634
Sardog1
Petlover1634 is obviously a supporter of AB 1634 while I am an opponent of the bill. That's fine, we can respect each other's POV.
On two three four five six seven eight occasions Petlover1634 has removed all edits I have made to this article. This is disrespectful of the edits I have made, which has been legitimate, proper, and researched content for this article. I consider this to be vandalism.
Suggestion for Petlover1634: please edit the portion of the article that pertains to support arguments. It is lacking in references and has been tagged by others for removal if references are not included. Please stop removing content about who the opponents of the bill are and why they oppose the bill. The information I have included on the opposition groups and motives is relevant, factual, and properly referenced. Please also stop adding false and inflammatory statements about the motives of opponents of the bill.
Let's discuss the issues of proper article content on this page, rather than simply reverting each other's edits. Neither the article nor this discussion page is an appropriate place to debate the bill. The appropriate issues for discussion revolve around what is suitable, factual content for the article. We can do this in a respectful way. Thank you. Sardog1 21:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is another plea to Petlover1634 to use this page to discuss suitable content, and to cease removing all of my edits to the article. Your "unbiased" version is not unbiased. Sardog1 07:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Petlover1634, It would be preferable to respectfully discuss article content here rather than engaging in an edit war of the article. Wikipedia policy on dispute resolution mandates that users attempt to resolve article content disputes on the discussion page. You have been repeatedly asked to participate here, but have not yet done so, and yet you continue to wipe out factual and referenced article content. The article you keep wiping out is not biased, though it is somewhat lopsided because you chose to keep reverting to an older version of the article rather than enhance the support content with references as requested. Sardog1 07:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Petlover1634, please use this page for article content dispute resolution. Your practice of reverting to a 2 week old poorly referenced and biased version of the article is not helpful. Sardog1 01:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The article certainly needs more work, but I don't think that repeatedly reverting to an old version of the article is a step in the right direction. Zetawoof and sardog have asked that Petlover1634 work more collaboratively, so far to no avail. Dsurber 05:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
November 11, 2007: The support / opposition sections in this article appear to be attempts to try to influence the reader rather than enlighten. Obviously some passionate people involved with this legislation are using this article to attack one another. My quick research external to Wikipedia has turned up an enormous amount of opinion material on this bill, much of it is conflicting.
This article would be better served as a purely factual piece, without reference to explicit pro/con arguments and without obvious attempts to influence the reader to one position or another. At the very least, most of the external references do appear to be to “party line” sites. It seems that any reference to opinion articles or sites are almost guaranteed to confuse instead of enlighten.
My preference would be for a straightforward article, as shown below (references are not shown here, but would not link to any sites that had an obvious bias towards the bill).
Sample updated article:
AB 1634 is a bill authored by California Assembly Member Lloyd Levine, a Democrat The bill would require most dogs and cats in California to be spayed or neutered after 6 months of age. Various exemptions are provided in the bill for obtaining an intact permit, at some unspecified cost.
The bill passed the California Assembly by a narrow margin on June 6. It was deferred by Senator Levine on July 11, 2007 in the California Senate Local Government committee. Levine has stated his intention to reintroduce the bill in 2008.
Bill supporters and bill opponents are passionate in their arguments and the bill is among the most controversial pieces of current legislation in California.
Text of the bill: (text of the bill would be included here)
So, if someone besides the clearly predisposed petlover and sardog is out there to discuss removing the partisan elements of this article and turning it into a lighter, factual piece, please respond and we can work towards upgrading this article in a way that is acceptable to all, but does not push the reader towards one particular opinion.
Sc-vet 03:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
>>>> Dear SC-VET - good luck, I look forward to seeing a better article. Like sardog I think I would rather see the whole thing deleted then go back and forth all the time. Just putting the bill up would probably fix this childish editing battle. I won't edit for a bit, but if the article still ends up with all the propaganda statements and links I am going to again delete them daily until the bill is done. Many of the links go pages containing outright lies about the bill and I will not let that happen in a supposedly neutral forum. Thanks. Petlover1634 08:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Sc-vet, I can assist you in cleaning up this article. You are correct in noting that the current article is not designed to be informative, but designed to direct opinion. The editors are using Wikipedia for their own purposes. Two examples:
A - The notes from one bill supporter regarding mass deletions indicate that the writer likely does not have interest in pursuing a neutral view; and furthermore the comments are inappropriate for a public contribution site.
B - The comments from an opposition member claiming that your plainly neutral suggestions for a concise article are biased indicate that the writer is not likely to be able to see the issue from a neutral point of view.
The references are used incorrectly; references should primarily be used to support facts. If they are used to direct to opinion pieces the article should clearly note this and the opinion areas should be separate from the primary article. As an example, one of the initial references in the Support and opposition section claims as fact that this bill is generally opposed by pet owners, but then uses a special interest group site as the reference point. Other references from this section indicate that over 3/4 of pets are already altered, which seems to indicate that pet owners would be generally supportive of a spay/neuter initiative, or at the least generally neutral. I am not writing this to take a position, but to point out that the references being used to persuade rather than inform.
Also, in the discussion area, one bill opponent claims that the text of the bill itself is misleading and so cannot be included without reference to opposition arguments. This basically equates to a claim that the legislative body in California who already passed this bill was misled and cannot understand legislation as it is written, an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary proof.
Sc-vet, in conclusion, I support your suggested edits for the main article as they are clearly neutral, but I suggest adding sections called "Opinions for the bill" and "Opinions against the bill", where both supporters and opponents can add their opinions and references that they believe back up their opinions. I don't believe adding the full text of the bill is helpful, if a link to the text is provided.
Lovethelanguage 21:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not think [7:44 11 November 2007 version] of the article contains any overt bias and conforms reasonably well to the NPOV policy. I do not think it is an exceptionally good article either. The article does present the opposition position perhaps a bit better than the supporters' position. This is best remedied by improving the discussion of the supporters' position, not by deleting all of the references that back the description of the opposition position.
The statement that supporters of the bill claim or believe certain things, supported by references, even references to advocacy sites, is a statement of fact. It is not opinion or advocacy. It is not advocacy to reference advocacy sites to justify a statement about the supporters' position. It is a statement of fact to say that the KKK supports segregation and reference a page stating that on the KKK web site (assuming there is such a thing); it is not advocacy of segregation.
The article states that the bill is controversial, which is certainly true. If the article did not also describe the controversy by stating the positions of the supporters and opponents, then the article would be sorely deficient. Sardog's recent edits adding references to the statements describing the supporters' position are an improvement. If Petlover1634 believes that Sardog has misstated the supporters' position I would suggest that he/she edit that portion of the article to more accurately describe the supporters' position. Be sure to word it as "supporters claim" or "supporters believe" rather than as statements of fact. Most of the "facts" around this issue are highly disputed. I would suggest that Petlover1634 refrain from editing the statement of the opposition position and equally that Sardog refrain from editing the statement of the supporters position should Petlover1634 choose to edit it. It is encumbent on both to be careful to write "Supporters claim" or "Opponents believe". Bald statements of fact are likely to be contentious in this context.
One issue of fact that I think is missing is a section on the legislative history of the bill. There was quite a bit of skulduggery surrounding the Assembly vote, on both sides. A section that describes how the bill moved through the legislature I think would be a valuable addition.
I find the [2:08 11 November2007 version] to be deficient in several regards. It makes numerous assertions about what the supporters and opponents of the bill believe without any references. It also makes the following statement "supporters in the media are almost universally volunteers, while opponents in the media are primarily paid for their appearances", again without references. From my own observations, I would say this statement is false; it is certainly questionable. Lacking references it also seems to present an improper POV. I also find this statement dubious, "Most opponents agree that an overpopulation issue does exist, a small percentage believe that no overpopulation exists" and it also lacks any references. I also find the two sentences describing the supporters and opponents of the bill to be subtly biased. I could rewrite these sentences using phrases like "radical animal rights activists" and "PETA extremists" and bias it the other way. The corresponding information in the 7:44 version appears to me to be more factual and less editorial. I believe that each group mentioned would describe themselves in the terms used in the 7:44 version. I doubt that is true for the terms used in the 2:08 version. Dsurber 05:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for organizing this page better.
As currently constructed (the Nov 11 7:44 version), the article is structured with an overview, followed by a general list of bill supporters, a general list of bill opponents, claims by supporters, and finally with claims by opponents. Previously the opposition was before support, but I rearranged it to put support first because I think it's more logical and conventional that way (Pro before Con).
If I am understanding your point, Wikipedia:Pro and con lists prefers to combine the pro/con lists (e.g. the claims for and and against AB 1634) into discussion by subject. This might include statements such as "Bill supporters claim that the exemption language in AB 1634 protects law enforcement dogs adequately[refs], while bill opponents dispute this and claim the bill would reduce the future availability of dogs that are suitable for law enforcement work[refs]." Is this the sort of structure you are thinking about? Something else?
Re: comments from Dsurber. I agree that discussion around issues such as bill history would make the article more complete. I've been hesitant to add anything more since we seem to be having difficulty reaching consensus on simple issues, like what kinds of references (citations) are appropriate. Article content that might be of interest includes bill history, CVMA withdrawing as one of the five sponsors of the bill, substantial impact of celebrity involvement from Bob Barker and Lassie, background/history of how this bill developed, etc. I believe that trying to tackle any one these is likely to be 10 times harder to reach consensus about than the rather short, simple and (I thought) matter-of-fact article we currently have. Though IMO this is all valid subject matter for the article, I'm not eager to jump from the frying pan into the inferno. Sardog1 11:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
For those who haven't followed AB 1634, it's difficult to convey just how controversial the bill has been. There is no issue before the California state legislature in 2007 that is more controversial. The controversies surrounding the gay marriage bill and the 'death with dignity' bill don't even come close. Long-time observers in the state Capital say they've never seen anything like it. The fax machines of the 80 Assembly members were overwhelmed for weeks by public comment about AB 1634, and the Senate local government committee's fax machine reportedly broke down under the onslaught. Staffers were so overwhelmed with the influx of letters, emails, and faxes that they not only couldn't read it all, they couldn't even count it all.
A Wikipedia article that is a dry description of the bill without describing the key points of controversy would be grossly deficient. Describing the points of controversy requires linking to references (citations) that themselves are partisan in nature, because there is no other way to describe the controversy while satisfying the core policy of Wikipedia:Verifiability. This does not in anyway preclude having an article that has a NPOV. I have not found a Wikipedia policy mandating that references (citations) themselves must take a NPOV. I am seeing examples of articles where references (citations) do NOT take a NPOV. This is to be expected when a controversial topic is described. --Sardog1 12:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
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