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A good start. Some matters of detail:
Correction: Canada, Australia, Rhodesia, and New Zealand, according to the quick Google search I just did. It might be a good idea, rather than balkanise too much, to edit this up into a brioader Empire Air Training Scheme article with appropriate sub-headings. Tannin
It appears EATS was in Aus/NZ only. Not to belittle the effort, it appears CATS was resonsible for about four times the number of personel. I will add a mention of EATS however.
BCATP is clearly better known name, but it looks to me like EATS was the original name for the whole thing. e.g.: "31 March {1945} The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan (BCATP), also known as the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS), prior to June 1942, officially ends. By 30 September 1944, EATS/BCATP had generated a total of 168,662 aircrew in training schools located in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Southern Rhodesia. Of this total, 75,152 were pilots, 40,452 navigators, 15,148 air bombers and 37,190 belonged to other aircrew categories. Although South Africa was not part of EATS/BCATP, under a parallel agreement, Royal Air Force aircrew were trained in South African Air Force Air Schools."[1] On that basis I'll redirect the blank EATS page to the BCATP one.Grant65 (Talk) 06:37, May 24, 2004 (UTC) EATS developed into CATP - quote from Ted Dunford, who instructed for 3 years prior to going back to the UK to fly Mosquitoes: 'I did some instructing in England and I was then posted overseas to South Africa and Rhodesia as an instructor in what was then called the Empire Air Training Scheme, later to become the Commonwealth Air Training Plan.'
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Has anyone reviewed this article for historical accuracy? I'm a Canadian and I can assure you the only countries that had anything to do with the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan were the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The other flying training operations referred to in this article, for instance Bermuda, Rhodesia, South Africa, and the United States were created by the British government/British Air Ministry/Royal Air Force independently of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Thoughts, anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveTheAirman (talk • contribs)
I agree that the title of the article should be changed. I can comment on the historical accuracy of the parts that relate to Canada, but not on the rest of the article. The British had flying training operations in many parts of the British Empire and in the United States, but the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan was a cost-sharing agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Canada was paid to train aircrew by the other three countries and furthermoe, the Canadian government had nothing to do with aircrew or groundcrew training in any other country. Here's a quote from Canadian Prime Minister King from a speech he gave on December 18, 1939:
"...agreement has now been reached on a cooperative air training plan, to be known as the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The agreement was signed last night very shortly after midnight in my office on Parliament Hill." "Premier King's Speech on Air-Training Pact," Globe and Mail, December 18, 1939.
How does one change the title of a Wikipedia article? SteveTheAirman (talk) 14:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree that it's a complex issue. This morning I checked two more sources, and found conflicting texts. According to the Australian government, the agreement signed in Ottawa on December 17, 1939 was called the "Empire Air Training Scheme" in Australia. English historian John Terraine, says that the original name of the RAF's training plan was "Empire Air Training Scheme (later called the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan)." and goes on to list 333 training schools distributed as follows: UK - 153, Canada - 92, Australia - 26, South Africa - 25, Southern Rhodesia - 10, India - 9, New Zealand - 6, Middle East - 6, USA - 5, and Bahamas - 1.
Australian reference: https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/raaf/eats Terraine reference: John Terraine, A Time for Courage: The Royal Air Force in the European War, 1939-1945 (New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1985), 257-258.
SteveTheAirman (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi Adam
I agree with your suggestion to split off the non-BCATP text. I've read most of the official, scholarly, and popular literature on the BCATP and I volunteer to tighten up the BCATP article. The worldwide RAF/Allied training article is a great idea, because after 1941 there was a lot of cooperation between the British and Americans on air operations. For me, it would be a research project. I found a couple of interesting news reports about RAF aircrew training in Bermuda and the US quite easily, but there's a lot more digging required. Maybe a stub article with the Rhodesian and South African bits to start off with? BTW, there is another Wikipedia issue related to the BCATP and that is the articles entitled "List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in Rhodesia" and "List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in South Africa." SteveTheAirman (talk) 12:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
One further thought... I searched for "Empire Air Training Scheme" and "British Commonwealth Air Training Plan" in the wartime Times of London, and found that the term BCATP was used exclusively to refer to the Canadian air training operation, whereas "Empire Air Training Scheme" appeared more often in articles and was used as a generic term to refer to aircrew training in Rhodesia, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand, and occasionally Canada. SteveTheAirman (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
The first paragraph mentions two numbers for crews trained. 30k+ then I think 23k+. In both instances, it says they were in Australia. I suspect the first number refers to Australia (initial training) and the second number refers to advanced training (Canada) but I don't know. What I do know, is that the way it is currently worded, it seems non-sensical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.39.199.42 (talk) 01:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi Everyone: Now that I'm semi-retired I have time to revise this article and make separate British Commonwealth Air Training Plan and Royal Air Force worldwide training program articles. I'll publish a plan for these revisions before making any changes. The basic idea is to separate discussion of the Royal Air Force's worldwide training operations (like the RAF flying schools in the United States) from the national training programs of the colonies and dominions (like Australia and New Zealand's national flying schools) from discussion of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The BCATP, strictly speaking, was a Canadian program run in Canada as a result of an agreement between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. All BCATP aircrew training schools were located in Canada. Discussion of flying schools in Rhodesia, Bermuda, Australia, and other places does not belong in a discussion of the BCATP.
Speak now, or forever hold your peace!
SteveTheAirman (talk) 18:51, 07 February 2024
I think the issue is that the article as it existed a while ago should really have been called "Joint Air Training Scheme". ThoughtIdRetired TIR 21:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Rhodesian, South African, and Bermudan sections removed. SteveTheAirman (talk) 02:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I am surprised to see that Golley, John (1993). Aircrew Unlimited: the Commonwealth air training plan during World War 2. Sparkford: Patrick Stephens. ISBN 1852602430. is not used in this article. Among other things, it explains how the scheme started with the name "Empire Air Training Scheme" and gives a date for this being changed to the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan in the Ottawa agreement which was signed on 6 June 1942 (pg 67). It also gives a good account of the political interplay between the British and the Canadians at the time the scheme was set up. ThoughtIdRetired TIR 16:53, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
At first sight, it appears that removal of the article content that covers training in South Africa has made this article an inappropriate link for Joint Air Training Scheme, as found in List of British Commonwealth Air Training Plan facilities in South Africa. Has that removed material been put in a different article or simply removed? ThoughtIdRetired TIR 16:59, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
The initial name of the scheme was "Empire Air Training Scheme". References for this include:
There may be some further additions to notes for the article. ThoughtIdRetired TIR 19:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)