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I've removed some inaccurate references to this ongoing bicycle techie arguement from the Steel section. There are a lot of subtle references to this debate in the steel section (I've removed it) it said that steel was old fashioned, heavy and cheap. There is some of this in the Aluminum section where is talks about Aluminum being "generally agreed" to be heavier. There is also a lot of emphasis on Aluminum fatigue which is probably from people taking a pro-steel perspective. And all the stuff about frame flex doesn't look NPOV. Anyway, perhaps we should have something that objectively describes that there is debate about the benefits of each material... Though this would have to be done at the same time as removing the excessive sideways references to the debate that are all over the place elsewhere in the article. Also it's really only a Sports biking argument as the vast majority of utility and commuting bike are steel, all other materials are unusual with some pluses and minuses to them.
Frankly, after cleaning all that up, I'd like to see more in depth steel discussion of the types of steel and properties. I've added mention of 4130 steel which is very common, at least on the bikes here in Canada.
Perhaps we should make this article more managable by ***MAJOR PROPOSAL*** cleaving off the materials discussion into it's own seperate bike frame materials section? I actually stumbled upon (and then got caught up editing) this article trying to find a nice list of various types of tubing in both steel and aluminum bicycles. I'm trying to research tubes. But really this information isn't here at all but a materials article could include it, have space for encompassing material debates, and not bog down the whole notion of what a frame is in the main article. Rusl (talk) 05:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I added the diagram of common bicycle measurements because these are terms that abound bikeswaps and ebay's bikes for sale, etc. I hope that this is not seen as redundant as the other diagram addresses actual parts and this one addresses accurate measurements. --Circlemaker 06:16, 04 July 2006 (UTC)
The forth paragraph of aluminum section needs work. Although I largely agree with the opinion of the author regarding the aerodynamic effect verses structural compromise of non-round tubing, the "beware" statements are not appropriate for wikipedia. I think this statement of such a controversial nature certainly needs a source if anyone can think of one. Bdentremont (talk) 05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Panzerjager88 (talk)
I added the bit about alloying extends the fatigue life to many years. The original text made it sound like aluminum frames will just break on you. While this may happen, it usually takes quite a few years of intense riding. I still see Cannondale CAAD 3 frames on the road. Comatose51 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Should bicycle frame construction be merged into this? --Christopherlin 02:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Whew. That took a while.
Could anybody add in material about geometries (road vs. comfort vs. hybrid vs. mountain) or any historical information? --Christopherlin 06:24, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
195.179.206.165 notes that the front/main "triangle" is technically not one, as the top and down tubes don't intersect. However, most references I've seen call it the triangle nonetheless. Thoughts? --Christopherlin 03:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Suggest the geometry discussion be moved more to the cycle types category, and it be made more clear that the various frame components talked about here (or scheduled to be moved into this article) are based on the tubing-constructed safety bicycle.
I guess it seems that the article presumes the only frame is a safety frame, despite efforts to make it more inclusive. --Kit transue 20:05, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What do folks think about detailing the effects the geometry variables have on the performance/utility of the bike? Something like:
Bottom bracket height: determines clearance of pedals and center of gravity. High BB height for fixed gears and mountain bikes, lower BB for touring, road, etc.
Standover height: the distance between the top tube and ground. Lower for moutain bikes where you might need to step on uneven terrain, lower still for convenience mounting the bicycle (clothing, touring). Higher moves the frame elements further apart to make the frame stiffer.
Head tube angle: steep for livelier steering, shallow for self-centering. (surely there's something about camber somewhere.)
Wheelbase: long for touring to keep racks out of the way, move the CG forward, allow for more water bottles :-) Long to reduce pitching over uneven surfaces. Short to increase responsiveness.
Suspension: heavier multi-link for controlling bob, lighter single pivot for long travel, simplicity, and weight, none for....
and so on, covering riding position and the like.
That would lay the groundwork for better understanding the cycle types.... --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a major subject that is very difficult to research on-line currently - partially due to so many conflicting opinions. In example: I would like to take exception to the current article's discussion of seat tube angle. It ignores the effect that changing seat tube angle has on the relationship of the riders leg bones and muscles to the pedals. Traditional road triangle racing, sports touring and nearly all "touring" bicycles have nearly identical head and seat tube angles seldom being more than one degree difference. My personal finding is that regardless of the seat tube angle of my (many) bicycles, I end up positioning the saddle at exactly the same position relative to the bottom bracket - sometimes requireing a seatpost with more or less "setback". Without some consideration of the ergonomics of the rider, a discussion of frame geometry is very incomplete. (vidjunkie) Vidjunkie (talk) 19:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
A Single seat stay refers to seat stays which merge onto one section before joining the front triangle of the bicycle, thus meeting at a single point. A dual seat stay refers to seat stays which meet the front triangle of the bicycle at two separate points, usually side-by-side.
In addition to saddle height, reach, etc., what about bottom bracket height and wheelbase? I don't know if the latter is spec'd as axle-to-axle, tire contact-to-contact, or bottom bracket-to-axle. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could fill in here if these are useful? --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have some issues with the pictures used on this article. It seems to me that judging just by the photographs, road/racing bicycles are over-represented. Maybe use more Utiliy or MTB type bike photographs more, since the former vastly outnumber racing/road bikes, anywhere in the world except perhaps in North America. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chicbicyclist (talk • contribs) .
While I was unable to find a source that explicitely lists carbon fiber as the primary non-metallic material, I have listed three sources, including a page from the highly-regarded and often cited Sheldon Brown's web site, that compare frame materials. All three include carbon fiber as the only non-metallic material in their discussions. Another way to look it this would be to list all the major manufacturers that offer carbon fiber frames (Trek, Specialized, Giant, Orbea, Felt, Raleigh, Scwhinn, Look, Seven, even aluminum frame pioneer Cannondale) vs all the major manufacturers that offer frames of any other non-metallic material. If there are any sources that indicate that any other non-metallic material is commonly used, or even currently in production (other than beautifully hand-crafted wood and bamboo), I would love to see it. -AndrewDressel 14:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else see "Image:Foreskin penis cr07.jpg" at the top of the article page? The image does not exist, so it doesn't show, but a transparaent box covers the first paragraph of the article. I can find no trace of it when I edit the page nor in the history. It does not appear in a preview of the page and it does not appear in my view of any previous version, just in the current version of the article. -AndrewDressel 19:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to moving most of the frame geometry section to the existing Bicycle and motorcycle geometry article? That would enable a more-comprehensive discussion of the topic in one place. This article is already 31k long, and moving some material out would help bring it back down to size. -AndrewDressel (talk) 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The current article states that "in contrast to some steel and titanium alloys, which have unlimited fatigue life, aluminum has no endurance limit" What is meant by this? The fatigue life of aluminum is *much* shorter than that of ti or steel. But Neither ti nor steel have an unlimited fatigue life. Aluminum, while not having an 'endurance life', as long as steel or ti certainly has an endurance life. I have bikes that have seen millions of load cycles and are still in one piece. Ender8282 (talk) 20:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I see you took out the mention of unlimited fatigue life. It's true we can't know that it really is infinite, but this is how it's usually described. It's distinctly different from the finite-but-long life of alloys without an endurance limit. See here Bicycle frames may not be designed for unlimited fatigue life, but steel parts typically are so it seems safe to generalize to bicycle frames. Kallog (talk) 04:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The ((for| template at the top of this article mentions Humber (bicycle). The article referred to is short, but seems to refer to a bicycle manufacturer who made a number of novel frame types, but not a frame type in itself. Could someone clarify this?--Keithonearth (talk) 06:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
"The ability to design an individual composite tube with properties that vary by orientation cannot be accomplished with any metal frame construction commonly in production."
This is false; any tube that does not have rotational symmetry (e.g. one with a rectangular cross section) has properties that vary by orientation. If the statement were qualified to say "a symmetrical" instead of "an individual", this would be rectified. However, the sentence would still read "The ability to design [...] a composite tube [...] cannot be accomplished with any metal frame construction." —Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulKishimoto (talk • contribs) 06:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I added a request for a reference to the claim that 'generally frame tubes are made of steel'. My experience working at a bicycle shop in Tucson, AZ is that most new bikes are being made of Aluminum. I would say that this is true both of bicycle shop brands and department store brands. I believe the statement to not reflect the current trends of the last 5 years. Historically I don't argue that bicycle were made of steel but I don't think that this is the current trend. Please add a reference to back this up or remove it. Ender8282 (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
A resent change to the opening blurb of this article has specified that the article is only about Diamond frames. This seems unnecessary to me, and even undesirable. I would suggest that we should have an article that is an overview of bicycle frames in general, and that we shouldn't exclude other frame types from this article. I'd also say that it is appropriate for an article giving an overview of bicycle frames in general, to mainly talk about the most common one: the diamond frame. The second most common one, the step-through frame shares many characteristics with the diamond frame, and all the tubes have the same name, construction technique and materials are virtually identical. Of the 3 links provided in the header: step-through frame, recumbent bicycle and Humber (bicycle), Step-through is nominally about a bicycle frame, but in fact discusses the type of bicycle in general. The other two articles are not about bicycle frames at all: the recumbent article talks about a wide range of characteristics about this style of bicycle, but on skimming through did not have any info about the frame construction, materials, or anything else. The Humbler article is about an obscure and obsolete bicycle manufacturer that at one time made a non-standard frame. It has little info. I propose changing the header to "This article describes bicycle frames in general with emphasis on diamond frames. For more non-diamond frames see step-through frame, recumbent bicycle and Humber (bicycle)."--Keithonearth (talk) 06:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I've copied this here from the Track bike article in hopes of finding an answer. -AndrewDressel (talk) 13:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
"higher bottom bracket for additional cornering clearance." I've often heard this, but have never heard how much higher.
I get the general "heigher for pedal clearance with a fixed gear", but it would seem also to depend on crank arm length. Does anyone know what the real requirement is? How would a particular bicycle at a track event be found to be legal or illegal?-AndrewDressel 00:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
While Reynolds 531 is similar to 4130 Chromoly, and they both have Manganese, Rynolds 531 has nearly twice as much.
SAE grade | % Mo | % C | % Mn | |
---|---|---|---|---|
4130 | 0.15 - 0.25 | 0.28 - 0.33 | 0.40 - 0.60 | |
531 | 0.25 | 0.35 | 1.5 |
Its mechanical properties and response to heat-treatment are broadly similar to the AISI 4130 standard alloy steel. -AndrewDressel (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
At one point the article says "The shell width influences the Q factor or tread of the bike." I can see how the spindle length affects tread, but not shell width. If others agree, could this sentence just be removed?
Thanks, Stuart H. Alden (talk) 12:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
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There is an interesting general history of working with titanium, as I think it's relatively new and techniques may have been guarded by industry or the military. In industry, Ti is often brazed, including to dissimilar metals. Bike frames are usually welded due to the cost of brazing in a workspace purged with inert gas, and possibly a larger brazing surface area requirment. Here are some links that might get this started.
Where does the term cantilever frame come from? It is technically incorrect, since there are no cantilevers in the frame that aren't in just about every other type - namely the handlebars, front forks and seat post. Is it in common use? If not, a more accurate term should be used. --Triskele Jim 17:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Recently a section on cardboard bike frames was added, with a reference. Then it was deleted, presumably because it was not notable and/or not in production.
It is quite notable, I believe, as evidenced by the extensive and mainstream news coverage it received:
That isn't necessarily the only inclusion criteria. Is it? Maybe it is. We already list Magnesium, Thermoplastic, and Wood, but I don't believe those materials are "in production" now. At least the article currently doesn't suggest so.
What say ye? -AndrewDressel (talk) 19:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks for the quick feedback. I think I'll try to put together a cardboard bicycle article anyway, to take advantage of all the notoriety. It is at least significant as the Shweeb. -AndrewDressel (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears that "open frame" is used as a synonym for step-through frame, as the article currently states. It is difficult to find any references for this, however, that are not private listings on tag-sale sites or advertising copy on commercial sites, which are not suitable references. Never-the-less, one reasonable reference has been found, so the mention can stay. That does not mean, however, that the synonym deserves undue weight. There is no reason to insert it every time "step-through", the name chosen for the article title, is used. -AndrewDressel (talk) 16:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
their range of seventeen models includes a woman's open frame bicycle
Someone who knows a bit more about this than me might like to do an edit. But in my opinion the photo illustrating a modern "truss frame" (something I'd not heard of before) looks very like what I know of as a cross frame. For example, this is a picture of a 1917 Cross-Frame Raleigh: http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/1917_Raleigh_Crossframe_03.jpg. And someone else might wish to add that the cross-frame stayed in the UK market as the police continued to use it, in the belief that it was that much stronger (policemen back then being fairly large!).Thomas Peardew (talk) 18:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Somebody should add a picture showing the names of the different parts of the frame. The article talks about a "downtube" in a couple of places, but doesn't explain which part that is. I'm guessing it's the diagonal member going from the handlebars to the crank, but maybe it's the vertical member that the seat sits on top of? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
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It seems that first three have different parts that are "loose"
Not sure if they fall in any of the categories in the article or are new category so I put them here. 95.178.222.9 (talk) 02:18, 23 April 2020 (UTC)