This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Air France Flight 4590 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 25, 2004, July 25, 2005, July 25, 2006, July 25, 2007, July 25, 2008, July 25, 2011, July 25, 2016, July 25, 2018, and July 25, 2020. |
A news item involving Air France Flight 4590 was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 8 December 2010. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 July 2020 and 14 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Xwang2182.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
"The Concorde had been the safest working passenger airliner in the world according to passenger deaths per distance travelled"
This statement in the article belies a failure to understand statistical significance. With only 20 aircraft working, there were so few hours and miles/kilometers in total, it is a fallacy to compare it to other transport aircraft. Once the crash occurred, the Concord became the worst jet aircraft, far worse than even the DC-10. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wefoij (talk • contribs) 18:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
As of March 2024, the article contains this whopper: "Despite the accident, Concorde was still considered among the world's safest aircraft at the time, a reputation it continues to hold after its retirement. This was the only fatal accident of Concorde's entire career.[27]" That entire paragraph is supported by a reference to this article from 2000, before the crash: https://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=83069
I'm taking the first sentence out as it is a complete misrepresentation of how safety statistics related to airplane crashes are compiled. Due to the low number of flight hours, the Concorde crash moved the model from the "safest" column to "one of the worst." If you actually know the history of tire debris damage on Concordes over its entire history you understand that this was a major design flaw that only hadn't caused airframe losses and fatalities previously because the limited number of craft in service meant the dice hadn't yet been rolled enough time.
Any argument that the Concorde was a very safe airplane because it only had a single fatal incident is a logical fallacy. 2601:602:8800:850:85EF:A9A5:7567:2541 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Much of the text was moved from the Concorde article. WhisperToMe 17:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
One stewardess was actually German as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.25.27.183 (talk) 17:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
It was an Australian who died not an Austrian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.124.84 (talk) 16:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed that this contradicts the Concorde article on the number of deaths on the ground. This article says 4 people on the ground were killed, Concorde says 5. Fabiform 14:43, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What about the on-the-ground fatalities nationality? Death toll is 113, but only nationalities of crew and passengers are shown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.130.208 (talk) 21:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
The second picture is incorrect! It is fliped vertically. The plane was starting in the direction shown on the first picture. The amateur movie made form taxi running near the airport, form which the second pictre cames, clearly shows plane starting in the opposite direction than pictured on second photo.
I don't know, if it is important. I only wanted to notice you about this. Maybe someone wishes to correct this photo.
Trejder 10:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The above debate seems to be obsolete, now that there is only one picture of the aircraft on fire. But that picture is a composite, which appeared on the front page of the Daily Mail, showing how the incident probably looked. Nobody actually took that picture. 109.157.18.114 (talk) 13:38, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that the picture was taken from the other side theory is correct! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Me20932 (talk • contribs) 09:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
why do you insist that the spelling is "tyre" instead of "tire"? Just to let you know, "tire" is the correct spelling in Modern Standard English, while "Tyre" is a city is southern Lebanon. I don't see why you inserted a request for people to not correct you on your orthographic error, as it degrades the quality of the article.--Retroandi 14:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what he's talking about [2] G0ggy (talk) 11:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of which spelling is used, the page desperately needs to be edited for consistency. 50% "tire" and 50% "tyre" is not acceptable for an article of this importance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.92.193 (talk • contribs)
While I appreciate your inclusion of a source to validate the use of "tyre" in your article, it would lend more weight if you reference something other than a Wikipedia article, such as the Oxford English Dictionary [3]. Also, perhaps we should both contact Wikipedia for their orthographical rules concerning articles in English; no doubt there have been arguements similar to ours with regards to other words. Retroandi 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The rule usually is, we go with the more popular, commonly recognized usage. Tire is more widely known than tyre, according to the discussion on the article "Tire". Hence, this article should reflect that. jparenti 00:04, 04 September 2007 (UTC)
No, the rule is usualy that we go by whatever is correct. In this case, tyre is correct. Also, bear in mind tire is derived from tyre. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 11:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Obviously some words are spelled differently in America than they are in Europe or other places, it's really not that hard to understand Dylan (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
113 people died and you asshats are arguing over the spelling of a word that is understood in its use. Obviously the plane wasn't tired. You people are inept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.67.107 (talk) 09:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
it was said in "Seconds from Disaster" that the shard of metal was exactally 42cm long, whereas the article says about 50, i'm not editing i right away because i'm not sure if i am correct or not as the metal was curved...
The correct answer: 1/3 of the piece of metal was actually curved about in 90 degrees. The length of the metal (bent) was very close to 45cm, which is same as the thickness of concorde's one wheel. (Tuesday, 30th of June, 2009) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.255.28.29 (talk) 02:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
>>>> A Picture from CSMonitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0202-concorde-crash-metal-strip/7329218-1-eng-US/0202-concorde-crash-metal-strip_full_600.jpg 98.195.78.35 (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)WilliamTheFriar
I work for Continental Airlines in Houston, Texas, and I am familiar with the rub-strip in question. It is indeed about 17" (seventeen inches) long, but the width is only approximately 3/4" or .750" (three-fourths of one inch) wide. And most critically the thickness of this strip is typically only about .025" to .053" (thousandths of an inch). So what you have is a long narrow strip, only slightly thicker than your typical kitchen foil food-wrap.
All engine cowling have such rub-strips installed between their several panels at the mating surfaces, typically in numerous segments. The strips are usually made of stainless steel or titanium, and the substitution of one material for the other is not a matter of great concern. Both the DC-10 and the A300 aircraft have similar designs in their cowling.
It is highly unlikely that such a strip could have cut through an aircraft tire. Such tires are built with very tough damage-resistant synthetic rubber in multiple plies. Typically there is a thick outer cap or thread over numerous plies of more rubber alternating with composite cloth material, in total several inches thick.
Furthermore I have worked with Mr. John Taylor some years ago, shortly before the incident. I knew him to be mentally sharp, manually talented, and he consistently practiced the highest work ethics. He was always an exemplary mechanic.
I know that most of this info is more than called for in the article, but please do correct the dimensions of the rub-strip which was said to have caused the accident. I do not have access to the engineering drawings, but I do speak from direct experience.
98.195.78.35 (talk) 15:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)"WilliamTheFriar"
98.195.78.35 (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)WilliamTheFriar
Incidentally, an overload of 2000lbs is HUGE. Yes, it was "substantially overloaded" and the fact that it was towards AFT of the ship made it exponentially worse.... And the omission of the axle spacer is also a huge error - it has less to do with V1 and lengthening of the tale-off roll than it has with lateral control on the ground at high speed, side-loads and severe wobble, causing the gear to blow tires. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.78.35 (talk) 20:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
>>>> BOTTOM LINE: The stated size of the debris in question is blatantly incorrect. Will one of the Wikipedia editors please correct the size to {17" long x .750" wide x .040" thick}.... This is a far cry from the stated size of "17in long and 12in wide" implying a huge chunk of cowling, rather than a small section of rub-strip. Thank you! 98.195.78.35 (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)"WilliamTheFriar"
I have to disagree with some of that description. No one knows conclusively how the hydraulic shock wave moved within tank no. 5, but the failure was not at an end wall, it was adjacent to it on the underside of the wing immediately in front of the left main undercarriage bay. The fuel leak, estimated at 100 litres/second initially, then poured out into the air stream and entering the turbulent flow behind the undercarriage leg and stay, atomised and thus became more likely to ignite from the brake fan wiring in the undercarriage bay that was damaged by tyre debris and was energised with 200VAC during take-off. The engines, particularly no. 2, lost thrust because the hot gas from the burning fuel plume was drawn in through the open auxiliary inlet on the underside of the nacelle and this hot gas reduced or eliminated the surge margin of the engine's LP compressor. Engine no.2 was never able to recover from this condition as it was shut down by the F/E below V2 (this probably made no difference to the eventual crash). Engine no.1 also sustained damage from other debris although it did recover thrust to somewhere near take-off levels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.159.137 (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I inserted [citation needed] and after a while removed the following unsourced statement:
However, Continental Airlines maintains that FAA regulations do allow the use of the titanium strip[citation needed] and added that this metal was more wear-resistant than the original part.[citation needed]
If anyone has a valid reference, please supply it and re-insert. Thanks, Crum375 13:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 07:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
This looks like repeated vandalism concerning Bush - it's totally irrelevant. And I think it would be a good idea to require reference for the Chirac story as I believe this constitutes only a claim made in a book "Supersonic Secrets" and never elsewhere confirmed... Jimbomu 16:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)jimbomu
I removed the following poorly sourced or unsourced section (mentioning unnamed sources in the only reference provided):
Alternative Theories: British investigators and former French Concorde pilots looked at several other possibilities that the report ignored, including an unbalanced weight distribution in the fuel tanks and loose landing gear. They came to the conclusion that the Concorde veered off-course on the runway, which reduced take-off speed below the crucial minimum. The aircraft had veered very close to a Boeing 747 known to be carrying French President Jacques Chirac. They argued that the Concorde was in trouble before takeoff, as it was overweight for the given conditions, with an excessively aft center of gravity and taking off downwind. Moreover, it was missing the crucial spacer from the left main landing-gear beam that would have made for a snug-fitting pivot. This compromised the alignment of the landing gear and the wobbling beam and gears allowing three degrees of movement possible in any direction. The uneven load on the left leg’s three remaining tires skewed the landing gear disastrously, with the scuff marks of four tires on the runway showing that the plane was skidding out of control. These investigators were frustrated by the lack of cooperation from French authorities, including an unwillingness to share data and the immediate resurfacing of Concorde's takeoff runway after the crash. They alleged that the BEA was determined to place the sole blame of the accident on the titanium strip to show that Concorde itself was not at fault. The BEA's interim report maintained that the leftward yaw was caused not by incorrectly assembled landing gear but by loss of thrust from the number 1 and 2 engines. Data from the Flight Data Recorder Black Box indicates that the aircraft was centred on the runway and accelerating normally up until the point where the tyre burst occurred. The instantaneous wind speed at the closest anemometer to the take-off point was recorded as zero knots.[5]
I suggest that we either find better named sources for this, or keep it out, per our strict sourcing rules required when living people are involved. Crum375 16:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the Concorde article as it is far too detalied for an article on the plane itself. I placed it here as I have not edited this page, and I don't know if this piece has been considered before. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
British and former French Concorde pilots looked at several other possibilities that the report ignored, including an unbalanced weight distribution in the fuel tanks and loose landing gear. They came to the conclusion that the Concorde veered course on the runway, which reduced take-off speed below the crucial minimum. (The aircraft had swerved towards a Boeing 747 carrying French President Jacques Chirac.) They argued that the Concorde was in trouble before takeoff, as it was overweight for the given conditions, with an excessively aft centre of gravity and taking off downwind. It was also missing the spacer from the left main landing-gear beam. This compromised the alignment of the landing gear. The uneven load on the left leg’s three remaining tyres skewed the landing gear disastrously, with the scuff marks of four tyres on the runway showing that the plane was skidding out of control. The BEA's interim report maintained that the leftward yaw was caused not by incorrectly assembled landing gear but by loss of thrust from the number 1 and 2 engines.[9]
There are more sources on it now.GoldDragon 02:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
>>"26 SEP 2000 A lawyer representing some of the 113 people killed in July`s Air France Concorde crash said he would sue Continental Airlines based on evidence from a preliminary report into the disaster. (Reuters)"<<
Really, people need to understand that Concorde, being a delta-winged aircraft, is flown below minimum drag speed on take-off and landing and so has a concept known as Vzrc, zero rate-of-climb speed, which is where thrust is just equal to the drag. At transatlantic weights (408,000lb approx.) for the 3-engine case with undercarriage down this is 212kt. Once the third engine failed, Vzrc then increases to 300kt, which could not be achieved with the drag of the undercarriage and the pitch attitude required to achieve the lift needed to stay airborne. The result is the sudden climb as the rapidly increasing angle of attack gave more lift but at the cost of a rapid speed loss, then the aircraft pitched up as the vortex behaviour changed the centre of pressure (the attached vortices separate over 25 degrees AoA). It also rolled towards the failed engines. By then the crew had no control of the aircraft, their fate was sealed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.159.137 (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I wonder what the name of the hotel the Concorde crashed into really was. This article has alternatively "Les Relais Bleus" and "Hotelissimo". Of the references, CNN quotes French media for Relais; the French Wikipedia, Aviation-safety.net, and other articles on BBC have Hotelissimo; others (including the BEA report) have "hotel" or nothing. I have no idea, but would guess Hotelissimo is correct. Klehti 08:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
A bit of googling (and straining my French) produced this quote: "Une roue du train d’atterrissage est dressée vers le ciel à quelques mètres de l’hôtel voisin, le Relais Bleu, miraculeusement intact", quoted here: [11]. So it would be quite safe to change Relais to Hotelissimo, I think. Klehti 08:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Was the name of the hotel not "La Patte d'Oie"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.159.137 (talk) 23:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
The name of the Hotel the Concorde crashed into was indeed "Hotelissimo". This Hotel was hit and completely destroyed and still is the crash site that you visit today for mourning. The hotel next to it was called "Les Relais Bleus" and while it was slightly damaged (All windows broken, light structural damage) it was quickly repaired. However - it was sold something like a year after the crash as few people wanted to stay at the "Les Relais Bleus" because of the rather difficult location next to a pretty deadly plane crash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MasterKyodai (talk • contribs) 19:38, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
A picture of the offending piece of debris would be useful. Bastie (talk) 11:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Posted on CSMonitor: File:Http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow site/storage/images/media/images/0202-concorde-crash-metal-strip/7329218-1-eng-US/0202-concorde-crash-metal-strip full 600.jpg
Also see my comments above. 98.195.78.35 (talk) 17:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)WilliamTheFriar
Was this bit of metal not important to the DC-10? What happened to that aircraft, the flight number of which isn't mentioned? 68.148.233.117 (talk) 04:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Who were the crewmembers? Should this be mentioned in the article? Bastie (talk) 11:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Pilot: Christian Marty = one of the first people to windsurf across the atlantic http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pilot-was-one-of-few-to-have-windsurfed-across-the-atlantic-707690.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.18.171 (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Reference 14 does not support the facts it is cited in reference to. Please check and correct. Dioptre (talk) 20:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Although Continental definitely installed an incorrect part on their plane, the strip of metal would be unlikely to cause such a disastrous result on a conventional airliner. I think the article could use more detail on the inherent problems of the Concorde which led to this result. Specifically, because of its delta wing configuration, the Concorde must have a much higher take-off speed than conventional airliners. This higher take-off speed means that tires are more likely to shred when impacted by runway debris. Moreover, because of the higher take-off speed, tire fragments from a burst tire will travel much faster and with more energy than would be the case for the take-off of a conventional airliner. Finally, I think there may be some sources which say that the large delta wing fuel tank is more likely to sustain damage from a blown tire than would a conventional wing, which is not located so directly above the tires and does not extend so far rearward behind the tires. --Westwind273 (talk) 06:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
"This lethal debris carried the energy in excess of twenty .44 Magnum gun blasts."
Since when is energy scientifically measured in gun blasts? And it isn't cited, either. Garbage.69.165.148.195 (talk) 00:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the shutdown of engine the original article said that the "crew" shut the engine down. This is false. It was the flight engineer that shut down engine 2 on his own initiative. According to the accident report he shut down the engine without notifying the captain or being instructed to do so by the captain as required. John Chamberlain (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I clarified that in the article too, and removed the "citation needed" banner. I tried to put in page 175, as the precise source, but that kills the link to the official accident report. Think I need help on how to provide that page, without killing the link. Also, I capitalized "Captain" and "Flight Engineer," because that is the format used in the official accident report. EditorASC (talk) 00:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
To save on weight, the Concorde was designed to takeoff without the assistance of flaps or slats - it's a delta wing, you don't have flaps or slats on a delta wing, you don't need them as the Concorde wing can be used at much higher angle of attacks than normal wings, that's why Concorde had a 'droop snoot' so the pilots could see the runway when it was landing, otherwise the nose would be too high in the air. The Avro Vulcan doesn't have flaps or slats either, it's because (apart from other reasons of control) delta wings don't need them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.253.31 (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
& the missing spacer on the left undercarriage bogey? have you even read the report?
duncanrmi (talk) 14:39, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Having carefully read the BEA final report I detected no indication of any weight or ordinal significance assigned to the bullet points found within section 3 - CONCLUSION and the subsections 3.1 Findings or 3.2 Probable Causes. There is, therefore, no support for the parenthesized statement "in order of importance" that appears at the beginning of the Conclusions section of the article. I have removed the unsupported statement for this reason. Allenc28 (talk) 09:10, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I clearly remember a UK tv documentary stating that BA's operational procedures insisted that an airport vehicle drive the length of the runway prior to Concorde takeoff or landing to check for any debris. Air France did not insist on this procedure, which would have discovered and removed the rub strip. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.196.211 (talk) 18:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
WTF is a tyre? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.206.89 (talk) 23:40, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I am directly linking these so that they archive:
WhisperToMe (talk) 05:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Centrifugal force is often intuitively confused with centripetal force. However, when this is the case, i.e. when the observer is not spinning around the object he is describing, it is just a fictitious force. The force that prevents the rubber of a spinning wheel from flying away is a centripetal, not a centrifuge force. When there is structural failure of the tyre, the elements that hold the rubber together to spin around the axis of the wheel break apart, the centripetal force is abolished, and rubber fragments fly away following a straight path which is tangential (and not perpendicular) to the rim. When a wheel spins faster, the centripetal force required to prevent the tyre from rupturing is greater, i.e. a sturdier tyre is needed.Sophos II (talk) 14:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Noticed the explanation in the article states "this British aircraft accident". Are we referring to the nationality of the aircraft manufacturer (British-French joint venture)? Might be better to just say the article uses British English. N419BH 17:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Would an English person know what a tire is? Most Americans have no clue what a tyre is. Sierra shadow (talk) 06:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
About the only people who use the word "TIRE" are believe it or not the Americans of the US. The word "Tyre" is universal except where the US has influenced people. Incidentally "Colour" is "English" as against "Color" which is Latin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.59.71 (talk) 13:54, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
This section seems too detailed for an article about the crash. This level of detail would make sense in a "design issues" section of a Concorde article, however. I believe the section would benefit from more scope with less detail: Early remedies to the tank puncture problem were a redesign of the wheels, elimination of the brand of tire most prone to disintegration, and the addition of deflectors to some of the aircraft. I had thought some tire redesign had also occurred before the crash. (My speculation based on something read a long time ago: Were the tires redesigned to fail in larger chunks without the knowledge that this might cause a shock wave with a large rupture elsewhere on the tank rather than the relatively small punctures from smaller tire chunks?)
None of these remedies considered this shock wave effect which was known in the military but not experienced in commercial aviation. My understanding is that attempts were made before the crash to limit objects that would puncture the tank, but that a tank puncture was not considered fatal. The shock-wave-induced rupture allowed much more fuel to escape than would have been expected based on previous experience. Fotoguzzi (talk) 10:20, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
The entire section - as well as being unsourced - has little relevance to the crash of AF4590. The 1979-81 incidents resulted in three safety recommendations: (1) landing gear should not be raised in the case of a tyre failure; (2) improved cabin crew training for emergency landings; (3) correct CVR operation should be checked before every take-off. All of these recommendations were implemented, but did not and could not have made any difference to the crash: the airplane was so badly damaged that they could not have raised the landing gear even if they had wanted to, and they never managed to make an emergency landing. 82.16.130.160 (talk) 02:13, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The article doesn't seem to mention why the aircraft was overweight. I saw a show suggesting some luggage was loaded that wasn't supposed to be but none of this is mentioned in the article. Nil Einne (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
In "Event summary" we have this: "Five minutes before that decision, a Continental Airlines McDonnell Douglas DC-10 destined to Newark (US), lost a titanium alloy strip ..." To me, that reads very oddly - I have never come across the usage "destined to" in this kind of context. I'm not changing it, because maybe it is airline-speak or something, but were it not for that concern I'd be wanting to look for something that read more easily in everyday English. What do you think? Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
English:
French:
French on English domain:
WhisperToMe (talk) 23:29, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Quoting this article: "Also facing fines or a custodial sentence were the designers of the plane, who prosecutors say knew that the plane's fuel tanks could be susceptible to damage from foreign objects, as well as a French official responsible for the regulation of the plane's safety.[36]"
Which plane's fuel tanks? Is this referring to the Concorde operated by Air France, or the Continental plane? Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 11:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
This edit makes a good point - Concorde is very often referred to thus, not as "the Concorde". So it is (/was: sob) typical to say "I saw Concorde today" rather than "I saw the/a Concorde today" (though I am far from sure it was never heard). However, I felt the edit may have gone too far too fast, since I think there is certainly room to say "the Concorde" when we are talking about a specific example, as we are at some places, naturally in the article. Do you see what I mean? :) I undid the edit pending a bit of discussion (I hope). Best wishes DBaK (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
The aforementioned speed is stated to be 310mph. But it cannot exceed the speed at which the Concorde was rolling at the moment of tyre break-up, which is the speed of the outermost part of the tyre. And that speed cannot itself exceed (and is probably rather less than) the takeoff speed of approximately 250mph. Where did the 310mph figure come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.69.150 (talk) 20:32, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Having just read the official English translation of the BEA report, it includes a section where the British AAIB participants criticize the French judicial investigation blaming it for restricting their access to material (physical and documentary), and offer a different view on a couple of aspects of the crash. Has anyone other than the AAIB commented on that aspect? Is it of significance to the article - the BEA discounts their different interpretations. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
The DC-10 current image in the article could be changed by this image? Is the actual DC-10 that caused Concorde accident.
Before Continental Airlines as N13067, it was leased by Alitalia to Eastern Airlines as N391EA.
PauloMSimoes (talk) 15:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The claim "French authorities acknowledged that a required runway inspection was not completed after the Continental takeoff, as was protocol for Concorde-takeoff preparation" is not supported by the citation made in reference to it, which actually contradicts it. Neither the ABC News article nor the BEA report mention runway inspections being part of preparations for Concorde takeoff. French airports made three routine runway inspections per day; the inspection of runway 26R scheduled for 3pm had been delayed due to a fire-fighting exercise, but since the Continental aircraft departed at 4:37pm and the Concorde at 4:42pm it is unlikely that an inspection at 3pm would have made any difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oktal (talk • contribs) 22:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Air France Flight 4590. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add ((cbignore))
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add ((nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot))
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:56, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on Air France Flight 4590. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add ((cbignore))
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add ((nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot))
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 01:09, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
A runway inspection, scheduled for an hour and a half before the Continental airplane took off, had not been carried out.
The article states that "During its 27 years in service, Concorde had about 70 tyre- or wheel-related incidents, 7 of which caused serious damage to the aircraft or were potentially catastrophic". It then lists nine incidents. Which begs the question, which are the seven serious ones, and why are two minor ones included in the list? 80.2.106.75 (talk) 19:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Air France Flight 4590. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ((Sourcecheck))
).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:02, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
What i dislike is the statement that there were no other options than takeoff. It suggests that aborting the takeoff was not an option since there was not enough runway left and the landing gear would have collapsed. Personally i thought this over and over. We all know what happened in the case of takeoff - chances of survival were around 0 percent. Runway 26R has like 1000 meter of meadow after it, then comes another 200 m of aircraft parking space. I think if the takeoff would have been aborted in the last second it would have also lead to a crash, but maybe at least with survivors. I think the structural damage would have been less severe. So i would challenge that sentence " its only option was to take off." We all know that this was not an option. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MasterKyodai (talk • contribs) 19:55, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Air France Flight 4590. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
"The Concorde had veered close to an Air France Boeing 747 carrying then-French President Jacques Chirac who was returning from the 26th G8 summit meeting in Okinawa, Japan, which was much further down the runway than the Concorde's usual takeoff point; only then did it strike the metal strip from the DC-10."
What does Chirac's plane have to do with where Concorde hit the metal strip? Concorde hit the metal strip where the metal strip lay, and would have done so if Chirac's plane had still been in Japan. Can anyone make sense of that paragraph or, failing that, can it be deleted? 80.2.106.75 (talk) 09:21, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
(UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Air France Flight 4590. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:38, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
This rather long Talk page has comments going back to 2003. It would probably be a good thing if automatic archiving were set up. Does anyone object? DBaK (talk) 08:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I do remember that the tyre manufacturer send two crisis communication teams immediatly after the incident. Sadly I do not remember the company. Who has an idea? 92.117.157.232 (talk) 09:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to discuss a potential FA push for the article. Using Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907 (an FA) as a reference, I’m possibly thinking about reorganizing the article in a similar format, first with the flight and crew section, followed by the accident, investigations, final reports and aftermath sections. I’m also thinking about describing the flight background (i.e. crew members, aircraft type, nationalities of the passengers and registration, moving the flight charter from the lead to that particular section, time and date of departure) for the aircraft and crew section. For the accident, we should explain what happened starting with the Concorde tyre hitting the debris, move the time zones to the appropriate section and describe the deaths of those on the ground. We may also need to use parentheses for the NTSB if necessary and add the BEA’s full name. The ultimate goal is to feature it as a TFA on 25 July 2019 (the 19th anniversary of the crash). If there are any further suggestions, please let me know.
Another one of the reasons for this discussion is that my edits, which were in good faith, were unfortunately reverted; as such, I’m taking the bold, revert and discuss route in discussing some of my recent changes to the article and subsequently getting a possible consensus. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:49, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
'Tyre' is the correct spelling in this article about a British aircraft accident. Please do not edit it to 'tire'. Thanks
In what must be the silliest controversy I have ever taken part in on Wikipedia - I made what seemed like a sensible and totally inconsequential edit to a hidden note removing the words "British aircraft accident" from the above. The reasons being that this was an Air France plane at a French airport and other than the concorde involved was the product of a joint Anglo/French development some 50 years ago nothing in the article or elsewhere singles out any factor with anything to do with Britain. If this was a 747 (US built) at Heathrow I'm sure it would be approriate to write Tyre. This article is already tagged that British English is the appropriate version of English to use and adding something questionable into the hidden note only lessens its impact. Despite all of this DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered seems very attached to this piece of fiction maybe he/she can explain their reasoning here. Andrewgprout (talk) 02:29, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
So I found on the French version of the article that captain Christian Marty has his own separate article. I plan to translate it into English, but it says it will overwrite this article as his name is a redirecting link. Currently the translation name is "Christian Marty (Pilot)." Any suggestions? Tigerdude9 (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Christian Goetz. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 17:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
How come the call sign of this flight wasn’t AFR/Air France 4590 heavy, when Concorde’s MTOW is over 300,000 lbs. I know that BAW used a special Concorde call sign, but AFAIK AFR never did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.131.7 (talk) 06:02, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I feel as though gushed is unprofessional and distracting, it should be replaced with a synonym, unless it is a direct quote, which I do not believe so. Gushed has negative connotations and is used in more perverse areas. -Toast (talk) 19:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
one or more punctures in at least one fuel tank resulting in a major fuel releaseand
This impact sent a shockwave through the fuel tank, which ruptured from inside out. Fuel ignited from a spark from wiring in the undercarriage.
When the tyre fragments struck the wing, the tank ruptured and fuel gushed out, then we need some new wording that captures the concept that a fuel leak emitted a large amount of fuel. How about: "When the tyre fragments struck the wing, the tank ruptured and caused a large fuel leak". How is that? - Ahunt (talk) 19:33, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Sounds great, but it didn't cause the fuel to leak, how about instead it could be "When the tyre fragments struck the wing, the tank ruptured, thereby releasing large quantities of fuel." In that the wording is it not implying that the tank rupturing is what caused fuel to leak, when instead it was the tyre. Fuel tanks can be ruptured without releasing large amounts of their cargo. It also allows for the tank rupturing to be a separate fact. I feel as though it gets the point across without having words like leak which makes the issue sound minor, and adding large would confuse the reader a bit more. -Toast (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Alright, i'll edit it in. -Toast (talk) 01:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
see Mike Bannister's book. Concorde was on fire 700m before encountering the metal strip. 18 reliable observers reported this. The strip was found on the right of the runway. The tyre damage on the left side of Concorde. The metal strip did not cause the Concorde fire and subsequent crash. 31.94.0.251 (talk) 20:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)